View Full Version : Tesla ECC83 vs Telefunken ECC83 - Christmas mini bake off
A little Christmas HiFi ambition this year was to compare some ECC83 Tubes - NOS Telefunken vs NOS Tesla. I have had a pair of matched Telefunkens sitting in the cupboard for a month or so now but not had time to compare them against the Teslas I currently use.
The tubes I swapped were in the phono stage of my Croft 25 R+. I have had many many tubes in this position and Teslas have simply bested everything that has come along by some margin, however NOS Telefunkens have a reputation and are just about the only serious ECC83 contender I have not tried, until now!
After a warm up period the Telefunkens filled out a little as they sounded a bit lean when first installed. But how did they compare to the Tesla NOS ECC83? Could they improve on these marvellous little beauties. In a word yes but with some caveats.
So to give you an idea of NOS Tesla ECC83 tubes they are are so clear, transparent and detailed with just the right amount of weight and warmth without sounding too lean. They give you an incredible insight into the recording and tell you everything. They are not romantic and let you hear everything warts and all. They are musical and with the good recorded material they deliver an incredible transparency with a hint of ethereal valve magic.
The NOS Telefunkens delivered a tad more detail and maybe a little more clarity with amazing imaging. They seem to be able to separate out every strand of the recording with ease. Teslas are a little behind in this respect and sound tiny bit distorted. The Telefunkens however have a little less fullness/weight. They are certainly dynamic and super clear and dare I say they seem to reveal more detail. Finally I would say the Telefunkens take the sound stage half a step back. Recorded ambience and acoustic information is highly impressive.
I will be leaving the Telefunkens in for some time to get a complete handle on their ability but I do feel the NOS Teslas have met their match!
Wakefield Turntables
29-12-2018, 19:54
You should try some CV4004s I had telefunken in before the cv4004 replaced them.
I am not too keen on Mullards Andy as they are a tad warm and cosy for me although I do like some aspects of what they do.
Tesla ECC803S versus Telefunken ECC803S and I sold the Teles. So close to each other the Teles weren't worth keeping. The Teles cost nearly 10 times the price at the time.
The Teslas and Telefunkens are very close and I paid about the same for each.
Actually I had an EAR preamp that came with Telefunken PCC88. I swapped them out for Tesla PCC88 and sold the Telefunkens.
Quids in I thought. Made a bit of money. No real loss in SQ of any substance.
fiddlemaker
30-12-2018, 01:40
Let me know if you decide to sell the Teslas, Jim!
Let me know if you decide to sell the Teslas, Jim!
I may have some Teslas for sale as I have quite a few. I will let you know John.
Jim it might be worth trying the Tesla ECC803S against the Tele 83.
I've never done that, though. So no guarantees.
Jim it might be worth trying the Tesla ECC803S against the Tele 83.
I've never done that, though. So no guarantees.
I have not seen the Tesla EC803s Justin but will check it out. I think there maybe a new JJ Tesla version but not seen a NOS Tesla ECC803s. I have been using Tesla ECC83s for some years and as they have been manufactured over quite a long period there are many variations out there. Funnily enough I found my modern 1970s Teslas better than some older late 60s Tesla ECC83s.
There must have been a high point in their manufacturing when everything they learnt came together to produce a superb valve. Knowing or finding which one could take a lifetime!:)
After extensive listening I have concluded that Telefunkens are no better than Teslas although they may have the edge in some areas. Given the very high price NOS Telefunkens are going for I would agree with Justin and just go for Teslas, you won't miss much and will save a few quid. My search for even better valves than either of these two goes on and i intend to investigate older and rarer NOS Teslas.
I have had gold pin 32 marked Teslas but not been impressed but there are some made at different factories over different periods of time. I need to do more research but ultimately you can only really tell how good a tube is when you try it in your own rig so reading reviews on the net only gets you so far. I would like to get hold of some ECC803s NOS Teslas as Justin has mentioned and found they are available but at nearly £100 each they are getting a tad expensive.
Bigman80
31-12-2018, 22:35
After extensive listening I have concluded that Telefunkens are no better than Teslas although they may have the edge in some areas. Given the very high price NOS Telefunkens are going for I would agree with Justin and just go for Teslas, you won't miss much and will save a few quid. My search for even better valves than either of these two goes on and i intend to investigate older and rarer NOS Teslas.
I have had gold pin 32 marked Teslas but not been impressed but there are some made at different factories over different periods of time. I need to do more research but ultimately you can only really tell how good a tube is when you try it in your own rig so reading reviews on the net only gets you so far. I would like to get hold of some ECC803s NOS Teslas as Justin has mentioned and found they are available but at nearly £100 each they are getting a tad expensive.Good on ya, Jim. Putting money into comparisons is the only way to really get to know what you think.
I haven't had a Tesla ECC83 In my phonostage but I have had two PCC88's along with a Telefunken.
Personally, I didn't care for the Tesla effect. I do agree that it did seem to be slightly distorted in comparison to the PCC88 Telefunkens.
My perspective is that the Telefunken are more detailed and imaging is sublime with them.
I will try a Tesla ECC83 and will happily share my thoughts but knowing the brand's fingerprint, I already suspect to know the answer.
I always buy Teslas from eBay Eastern block sellers. Never had an issue and the feedback for this chap is outstanding.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F26 4094666514
These were the ones I used to use and were around £50 a pair 15 years ago.
Now check the price of the Telefunken. Around £700+ a pair and indeed around £500 when I sold mine years ago.
I've never heard a trace of distortion from any Tesla but I have never used them in phono stages. Only preamps.
For Teslas get cross sword marked valves if you can.
Jerry doesn't seem to have liked Teslas in his Heron preamp. Seems to have preferred EH. He's just plain wrong sometimes. I've sat with him and been amazed at his preference in the past. But hey, he's Jerry and this is hi-fi. Lots of scope for disagreements:)
Bigman80
31-12-2018, 22:52
I've never heard a trace of distortion from any Tesla but I have never used them in phono stages. Only preamps.
For Teslas get cross sword marked valves if you can.
Jerry doesn't seem to have liked Teslas in his Heron preamp. Seems to have preferred EH. He's just plain wrong sometimes. I've sat with him and been amazed at his preference in the past. But hey, he's Jerry and this is hi-fi. Lots of scope for disagreements:)Maybe distortion isn't the right word. The effect it has here is a loss of the clean lines I get from the Telefunken.
Bass seems less delineated and harder to hear the detail in the lower registers. The kids seem to have a bit more timbral qualities BUT again, I just don't get the amount of detail as I do from the Telefunken.
Maybe distortion isn't the right word. The effect it has here is a loss of the clean lines I get from the Telefunken.
Bass seems less delineated and harder to hear the detail in the lower registers. The kids seem to have a bit more timbral qualities BUT again, I just don't get the amount of detail as I do from the Telefunken.All I can say is I can't relate to your assertions because I haven't experienced anything of the sort.
However, if you hear it then you are right.
I will say though I find valve rolling perplexing. The results are not cut in stone and some valves will render a particular track better than another set.
What I do find I with time is that I notice the pecking order in terms of usage.
For example, for modern production triodes usage from highest to lowest in my DAC is:
EML AD1
EML globe mesh 45
KR PX4
KR 300B
Just making a point.
The KR 300B has interestingly become less and less favoured over time after an initially good impression. Curious, but I know why I started to dislike it.
Bigman80
31-12-2018, 23:08
All I can say is I can't relate to your assertions because I haven't experienced anything of the sort.
However, if you hear it then you are right.
I will say though I find valve rolling perplexing. The results are not cut in stone and some valves will render a particular track better than another set.
What I do find I we time is that I notice the pecking order in terms of usage.
For example, for modern production triodes usage from highest to lowest in my DAC is:
EML AD1
EML globe mesh 45
KR PX4
KR 300B
Just making a point.No, I totally agree. Mullards are mega popular but I really don't get why.
Same with the JJ valves I tried. Just sounded harsh to me.
The other thing to remember is the implementation of the valve will probably have the largest effect.
I was rolling Opamps recently in the Burson Bang power amp I have here. Some folks love the burr brown sound, me, I don't. Dark and smooth. Not what I. After. The Burson V6 actually resides in there now.
Strange little hobby isn't it.
JJ are harsh and fuzzy and Mullards are warm and rosy by comparison to Teslas. I don't really think Teslas sound distorted and they Image nearly as well as Telefunkens. The Telefunkens are detailed but from my listening experience they don't sound quite as dynamic as Teslas, they hold back a little. Obviously this is my system and phono stage so they may well sound different in other folks gear.
No, I totally agree. Mullards are mega popular but I really don't get why.
Same with the JJ valves I tried. Just sounded harsh to me.
The other thing to remember is the implementation of the valve will probably have the largest effect.
I was rolling Opamps recently in the Burson Bang power amp I have here. Some folks love the burr brown sound, me, I don't. Dark and smooth. Not what I. After. The Burson V6 actually resides in there now.
Strange little hobby isn't it.It is strange.
There are so many Mullards made over such a long period of time that it is hard to generalise and say they are all shit, I reckon.
Certainly the mid 80s mil spec CV series Mullard valves I have owned have been excellent. Which I wasn't expecting. As good as Teslas I would say. Probably more neutral.
But there's expectation bias, the history thing, the 'no good if it wasn't made in Blackburn' psyche, the fact they are British etc etc that all contributes to people wanting to like them. And that's important since it stops people thinking they need to explore more.
:)
Interesting regarding JJ valves. Yes they do sound harsh and bright and they are not really suitable for phono stage duties as a result but they are great in the regulation stage of my preamp. I have found them to be actually better than my NOS Teslas. Now this maybe down to a number of factors including the fact they may have more output than NOS tubes with unknown life? Many guitarists use them in their amps because they give such a strong output. I had an ECC99 JJ tube in my line stage, the equivalent of a 12BH7a and it was simply terrible in every respect!
I have tried lots of Mullards and they do sound nice but I will leave it at that. They great thing about tubes is that there are so many out there to try like a box of liquorice all sorts, eventually you find the flavour you like in your system that suits your taste. No right or wrongs here its all about how you hear!:)
They should just be looked at as fine tuning devices, giving a change of flavour when boredom strikes.
They have hoard appeal, and NOS ones could prove to be a good investment. New production ones will depreciate massively in the short term.
I read somewhere that ECC83 is a better choice for guitar amps, and ECC803S is better for hi-fi applications. I wonder if there is any truth in that but if so I guess ECC83 breaks up better when overloaded due to its electrical characteristics. Anyone know if this is actually true?
Firebottle
01-01-2019, 11:09
The 803 is a premium tube, to quote:
'the tolerances of electrical ratings are reduced in comparison with receiving tubes'
By receiving tubes read 'normal production'. With a wider spread of characteristics then overload is likely to be preferable in guitar amps.
Frazeur1
01-01-2019, 14:17
I do find all of this very interesting, and certainly the tube rolling exercise can be fun, exciting, and also down right tiresome at times. I do agree that in any given situation, differences may be there, and it is a sort of “flavoring” of the soup, or as put above, fine tuning.
What I think would be an even more interesting thing, would be a comparison using same equipment of course, of all the new manufactured ECC83 tubes out there. I would be curious what others think without bias. I have done some of this myself lately using my Croft Micro 25 and Series 7 amps. I am trying to kind of wrap my head around it all myself! I will leave my comments out of it for now, as more time to soak is needed....
I hear much bigger changes in triode/pentode power output valves than I ever do in small signal valves.
Some people disagree with me but I can only ascertain than they are either:
1) Stone deaf.
2) Talking out of their arses without any real experience.
Just my opinion and just making a point. Add to that I am not really a fan of valve phono stages. I always seem to prefer solid state for that. So my experience there is very limited.
But yeah, I expect there are some excellent contemporary examples in ECC83 and ECC803S.
I noticed when I popped the Telefunken valves in the other week they had very badly oxidised pins so I cleaned them today with a fibre brush and transformed them to shiny and new. The difference when I popped them back in the Croft 25R was not subtle!:eek:
I have been listening enthralled this weekend. They are a very class act and I would say they sound better than the Teslas by some margin.
Who would have thought dirty pins could make such a difference!
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