PDA

View Full Version : Another Visit to Firebottles - 2 Years On!



Jimbo
29-12-2018, 16:34
I can't believe it has been 2 years since I visited Alans house and listened to his system. I have spoken and seen Alan a few times since then but not actually listened too his rig for 2 years and in that time there have been many changes, some big and some small. However all of these changes have resulted in quite a large change to Alans system and the listening experience. Many of the components are the same but they have all been tinkered with. I apologise in advance for not putting up photos but Alan maybe along later to add these in and I also apologise if I do not state exactly which model of equipment Alan is using which is sort of irrelevant as they are either home built or modified!

I was greeted with the usual hospitality by Mr and Mrs Firebottle and spent about 3-4 hours listening mainly to vinyl on Alans GL75 Lenco. This had undergone significant changes since I last heard it and I feel these changes account for about 50% of the improvement in overall sound quality of Alans system.

So the Lenco has been replinthed in a beautiful layered plywood plinth with a natural finish and a cables routed to new connectors built into the plinth. This sits on some very nice cup and cone steel spiked feet. The whole upgrade to the plinth has brought about major significant benefits in reducing sound vibration both airborne and from the main turntable top plate. The Lenco no longer contributes much of its own sound to the music. On top of all this Alan has now installed a Lyra MC cartridge which unbelievably works superbly with some tweaking of the Lenco standard arm. Just shows you do not have to junk this arm to get a great sound. The Lyra cartridge has a very detailed but solid sound with great bass weight and transparency.

Amplification is home brew Firebottle via the Kin preamp and Alans power amps. I know these have been tweaked and sound as good as ever with another new tweak from the addition of a Industrial but effective volume pot. I forget exactly which one Alans is using but he believes it had changed the bass performance in his system which I don't doubt having listened to it.

Speakers are Alans Quad Esl57 with addition of a super tweeter and supplemented with a REL subwoofer. Alan did swap in some Neat speakers for 2 minutes but the Quads were so much better we decided to listen only to them.

Music kicked off with some jazz which I believe was LA4 Just Friends - stunning recording. I immediately went to Discogs to buy it but at £42 for a minty condition its a bit pricey. Good find there Alan. :) We also listened to KEB Mo KEB Mo and a rather tasty piece of music which knowing Alans very varied taste in music I knew he would like. it was Sera un Noche 'Nublado' 45rpm.

The overall effect and improvement in Alans system since my last visit were across the board. There was a greater solidity and dynamic impact to the music with greater weight and transparency. On some live recordings you felt like you were there - very nice. The lyra cartridge certainly digs out the detail but is even handed and quite dynamic unlike other Lyra cartridges I have heard which can be airy fairy. I liked it a lot and in the context of Alans system it worked well. This was one area of discussion we had over the course of the afternoon and that was system synergy. Simply you put together a system in your own environment according to your own taste and synergistic involvement with the other components in your system. It is no use trying to assume listening to any piece of equipment anywhere or any other system that it will effectively guarantee it will work in your system. The sum of the parts in your own system and environment will determine wether it works or not.

We did listen to a bit of the other stuff - digital via a retro Philips Cd player via a rather tasty Bel Canto DAC. I felt although the resolution was not absolute it did a very good job indeed in turning out a solid musical performance that was not far too far behind Alans analogue system, However that distance no matter how small is quite important as it is always that last bit that delivers the icing on the cake in believability in musical playback and therefore for me analogue still wins. There is something still about the analogue sound that still leaves digital some way behind but not far! The Bel Canto DAC is a great find and sounded good in Alans system, better than many DACs I have heard recently apart from DAVE but that is different story.

Only one area in Alans system I did feel lacking from my point of view and that was soundstage both width and depth. This may have been down to the listening room acoustics, a bit more space to the side and behind the speakers may have allowed them to breath better but I felt they were constraining the acoustic ambience of the soundstage. This is problem many of us have in smaller listening environment so it is quite common.

I would like to thank Alan for a very pleasant afternoon and allowing me to hear his system 2 years on. It has certainly not stood still and as I said at the beginning it has moved on significantly through all the changes he has made. If I was to take away one single piece that was the most significant I would say it was Alans now much modified Lenco GL75. What a great turntable this now is especially with the Lyra cartridge. It make me think just what other cartridges could be fitted to this arm.:scratch:

Firebottle
29-12-2018, 19:06
Great to have Jimbo round at Firebottle towers again, just can't believe it has been almost two years!
A lot has changed since then, detailed in the thread https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61612-12-months-of-tweaks-and-improvements-to-the-system

A general view of the system stack, unfortunately I can't rotate it in Tinypic, even though the raw image button shows it the right way around :mental:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2uxz2v5.jpg


The Lenco is now performing fabulously, if you are in any doubt about fitting a massy plinth just do it, it is transformational.
The TT with the Lyra in action:

http://i68.tinypic.com/v8o940.jpg


The next shelf below the TT showing the Bel Canto DAC on top left, plus a recent addition of an OTL valve based headphone amplifier on top right. An exceedingly good headphone amp from the early 80's.
The modified KIN preamp is on the bottom.

http://i65.tinypic.com/10dt9wl.jpg


The Neat SX2 speakers that were in the system for a brief time as a comparison:

http://i64.tinypic.com/2vn3pj9.jpg


The Quad 57's are supplemented by a copy of REL subwoofer, just providing the very bottom octave to the music.
A shot showing the port and internal connections to the 10 inch woofer:

http://i64.tinypic.com/o7srqf.jpg


It is always a pleasure and often an educational experience to have fellow audiophiles to have a listen to your system and this visit was no exception.
The sound staging of the electrostatics was discussed in depth, compared to a more point source presentation from 'traditional' speakers, the conclusion being that a panel speaker, particularly a dipole as the Quad 57's are, will always present a different sound stage depending greatly on the room dimensions and particularly the space and reflective/absorptive characteristics behind the speaker.

This hasn't really been fully appreciated by myself so I thank James for the fresh set of ears on this.


The lower shelf shows the sub woofer amp on the top, this was built into a separate box rather than being incorporated in the sub woofer enclosure.
Below this is the Philips CD610 MkII acting as transport and the hybrid dual mono power amp below.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2r7qyiv.jpg


Altogether a great afternoon with some fabulous music played.

hifinutt
30-12-2018, 11:02
thanks for write up jimbo and glad you could get over there to alan and shirleys place

Bigman80
30-12-2018, 13:34
Good write up Jim. Alan's a
System has come on and the the Lyra is a large part of the reason for that.

The difference the Acoustic Dimensions stepped attenuator has made is the most significant. Well worth the money and if you aren't a believer in Stepped Attenuators, you would be after trying one.

The Lenco does reap the benefit of the Massy plinth. No doubt. I'd still either upgrade the arm to one of the carbon fibre armed version that are made at LH or I'd go for something after making, not sure what goes directly into a Lenco though

Overall, the system is a joy to listen to but I still can't get on with those EL57s. I see why people like them but I still prefer a conventional speaker.

A lovely system to listen too

Jimbo
30-12-2018, 16:35
Good write up Jim. Alan's a
System has come on and the the Lyra is a large part of the reason for that.

The difference the Acoustic Dimensions stepped attenuator has made is the most significant. Well worth the money and if you aren't a believer in Stepped Attenuators, you would be after trying one.

The Lenco does reap the benefit of the Massy plinth. No doubt. I'd still either upgrade the arm to one of the carbon fibre armed version that are made at LH or I'd go for something after making, not sure what goes directly into a Lenco though

Overall, the system is a joy to listen to but I still can't get on with those EL57s. I see why people like them but I still prefer a conventional speaker.

A lovely system to listen too

Cheers Oli, you have probably heard small increments in Alans system over the last few years but for me I heard everything a once so quite a change!

Yes maybe I ought to try a stepped Attenuator, it is a route i have not ventured down yet so it could be worth trying if you believe in its advocacy.

The Lenco is a strange beast (not Alans it is beautiful) I am referring to the possibilities that can be achieved with a Lenco. The arm is agricultural but works well. Very surprised the Lyra sounds so good with it (Brian are you paying attention?);) I am not sure what other arms would sound better - Jelco are usual installed but I don't believe they are significantly better.:sofa. Maybe a Phonomac could be made to fit?

EL57s can be great in the right size room under certain conditions. I would personally change to a conventional speaker as you have suggested Oli but each to his own. I recon Alan could gain something in this area given the size and shape of his listening room. However his system still sounds great! Ultimately we are all compromised with speakers as the ones we would all really like to use with our systems are either to large for our rooms or too expensive!:)

Bigman80
30-12-2018, 16:58
Hi Jim,

I absolutely believe that you would gain more than you'd bargain for with Stepped Attenuators. Maybe a nice mono pair to take the place of your current controls.

I haven't heard a system that hasn't been improved by one.

Yes, I imagine the jump in quality was quite a surprise. I have been on this journey with Alan and have made effort to get there and give each improvement a listen.

It's a great hobby.

Jimbo
30-12-2018, 17:11
Hi Jim,

I absolutely believe that you would gain more than you'd bargain for with Stepped Attenuators. Maybe a nice mono pair to take the place of your current controls.

I haven't heard a system that hasn't been improved by one.

Yes, I imagine the jump in quality was quite a surprise. I have been on this journey with Alan and have made effort to get there and give each improvement a listen.

It's a great hobby.

Oli, which stepped attenuator are you using?

brian2957
30-12-2018, 17:16
Cheers Oli, you have probably heard small increments in Alans system over the last few years but for me I heard everything a once so quite a change!

Yes maybe I ought to try a stepped Attenuator, it is a route i have not ventured down yet so it could be worth trying if you believe in its advocacy.

The Lenco is a strange beast (not Alans it is beautiful) I am referring to the possibilities that can be achieved with a Lenco. The arm is agricultural but works well. Very surprised the Lyra sounds so good with it (Brian are you paying attention?);) I am not sure what other arms would sound better - Jelco are usual installed but I don't believe they are significantly better.:sofa. Maybe a Phonomac could be made to fit?

EL57s can be great in the right size room under certain conditions. I would personally change to a conventional speaker as you have suggested Oli but each to his own. I recon Alan could gain something in this area given the size and shape of his listening room. However his system still sounds great! Ultimately we are all compromised with speakers as the ones we would all really like to use with our systems are either to large for our rooms or too expensive!:)

Yup , been reading this thread with interest James . There's a strong possibility that I was with you that day two years ago and was the recipient of Alan and Shirley's kind hospitality , and a very nice lunch too :)
Alan's system sounded excellent that day , and yes I'm a big fan of the 57s .
It never ceases to amaze me when I see what can be done with the Lenco GL75 .

Bigman80
30-12-2018, 17:32
Oli, which stepped attenuator are you using?I'm using a series Khozmo. He makes monos too.

Firebottle
30-12-2018, 17:52
James you could dip your toe so to speak by trying a couple of mono 23 step attenuators, for under £40 :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valab-23-Stepped-Attenuator-Potentiometer-50K-Log-Mono/223294512072?hash=item33fd63dbc8:g:QZcAAOSwqu9VFyc Q:rk:6:pf:0

Possibly too coarse an adjustment to stay with but worth a try?

@Brian, yes you were here that day :cool:

Jimbo
30-12-2018, 17:56
Yup , been reading this thread with interest James . There's a strong possibility that I was with you that day two years ago and was the recipient of Alan and Shirley's kind hospitality , and a very nice lunch too :)
Alan's system sounded excellent that day , and yes I'm a big fan of the 57s .
It never ceases to amaze me when I see what can be done with the Lenco GL75 .

Alans is a beauty mate. The plinth, feet and super Lyra cartridge really make it sing!

Jimbo
30-12-2018, 17:56
James you could dip your toe so to speak by trying a couple of mono 23 step attenuators, for under £40 :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valab-23-Stepped-Attenuator-Potentiometer-50K-Log-Mono/223294512072?hash=item33fd63dbc8:g:QZcAAOSwqu9VFyc Q:rk:6:pf:0

Possibly too coarse an adjustment to stay with but worth a try?

@Brian, yes you were here that day :cool:


Do you know how much the mono Khozmos are Alan?

Bigman80
30-12-2018, 19:56
Do you know how much the mono Khozmos are Alan?$95 each.

Wakefield Turntables
30-12-2018, 20:08
The Lenco could be brought on even further with a decent external PSU and tachometer feedback system like this one :-

24992

The massy plinth does help alongside careful attention to coupling. Numerous arms will fit straight into the Lenco top plate.

Firebottle
30-12-2018, 21:06
Do you know how much the mono Khozmos are Alan?

The Acoustic Dimension mono attenuators are £105 each.
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/attenuators/attenuators-main.htm

Jimbo
30-12-2018, 21:14
The Acoustic Dimension mono attenuators are £105 each.
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/attenuators/attenuators-main.htm

They look rather nice.

Firebottle
31-12-2018, 09:19
The stereo remote is the one I fitted to the KIN.

Jimbo
01-01-2019, 18:42
The Lenco could be brought on even further with a decent external PSU and tachometer feedback system like this one :-

24992

The massy plinth does help alongside careful attention to coupling. Numerous arms will fit straight into the Lenco top plate.

I think Alan was thinking of an external PSU and tachometer -SOTA are going to manufacture the Roadrunner and Eagle again I think.

Wakefield Turntables
01-01-2019, 19:19
I think Alan was thinking of an external PSU and tachometer -SOTA are going to manufacture the Roadrunner and Eagle again I think.

Jim what does SOTA stand for?

Wakefield Turntables
01-01-2019, 19:22
OK, found the thread.

Jimbo
01-01-2019, 20:34
I think Alan was thinking of an external PSU and tachometer -SOTA are going to manufacture the Roadrunner and Eagle again I think.


Andy, SOTA are SOTA turntables and they are going to manufacture Phoenix engineering Eagle/Roadrunner PSU