What constitutes a grounding box?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm always on the lookout for things which may improve my listening experience. I've seen these advertised and the idea looks sound, but not the price. So, just what constitutes a grounding box? It could be argued that careful attention in cabling management could mitigate the need for such a device, but for fun it could make for a DIY project. Any thoughts, suggestions, lads?

[Barry]

I'm always on the lookout for things which may improve my listening experience. I've seen these advertised and the idea looks sound, but not the price. So, just what constitutes a grounding box? It could be argued that careful attention in cabling management could mitigate the need for such a device, but for fun it could make for a DIY project. Any thoughts, suggestions, lads?

Just take a large wooden cigar box, fit it with a gold-plated binding post and fill it full of coal - then tell your friends it cost £1,000. That last bit is important - your friends won't notice any improvement unless they know the price.

[YNWaN]

There is no agreement as to what constitutes a grounding box as the concept has only recently been ‘invented’ and only by the audio accessory fraternity. In the UK every mains socket already has a very effective grounding pin, called the earth.

[Macca]

Here's some measurements done on one of the Entreq offerings. Quick summary: Performance depends on how long a wire you use to connect the system to the box. Longer wire injects more noise and distortion, short wire adds less. Probably none of it is audible. So in effect it does absolutely nothing - which is what you'd expect. However for the man who already has everything else it's a bit of fun I suppose...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

[sq225917]

Get a used xmas present box, take a massive shit in it, enjoy

[Bigman80]

Get a used xmas present box, take a massive shit in it, enjoy[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

[Macca]

I've noticed that people who own these find the benefit increases the more things they connect to it (and the more 'grounding' boxes they have). The more cables you attach to it the bigger an antennae you are creating so more RFI will be picked up. Possibly to the point of audibility. So it seems possible that it could affect the sound although technically it's a degradation. But of course it's all subjective, a degraded signal can sound 'better' to some.

[Wakefield Turntables]

:rfl:I suspected that I'd get these replies! I like the idea of shitting in a box, I'm going for a curry tonight........ ;) Thanks for the replies guys and thanks Macca for a link to a new site I'd not seen before.

[Macca]

:rfl:I suspected that I'd get these replies! I like the idea of shitting in a box, I'm going for a curry tonight........ ;) Thanks for the replies guys and thanks Macca for a link to a new site I'd not seen before.

It's a good site if you want independent technical info without having to wade through all the frizzley stuff.

[Pharos]

Firstly I cannot see how the addition of a box, whether conductive, (Cast alloy for eg.), or non conductive can do anything unless the conductive box is earthed. In this case it will act as a screen to e-mag and e-stat fields.

But then, why a box, unless it encloses a piece of equipment to thoroughly screen it. Obviously a piece of wire will become an effective aerial if not earthed, so one has to ask WTF is this meant to do?

The results from the link speak for themselves - complete and utter BS IMO.

We all must go out and buy a dozen or so.

[Stratmangler]

Get a used xmas present box, take a massive shit in it, enjoy

You can't do that - once the novelty of the box's original contents has worn off it (the box) becomes the most played with thing for the kiddies.
Spend a fortune on the contents, and you should have just given them a pile of boxes to play with :eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

"it's a load of bollocks", some might say. In fact I know people who probably would express a view to that effect. As for me, I'm far too polite to pour scorn on anything :).

[Macca]

Firstly I cannot see how the addition of a box, whether conductive, (Cast alloy for eg.), or non conductive can do anything unless the conductive box is earthed. In this case it will act as a screen to e-mag and e-stat fields.

But then, why a box, unless it encloses a piece of equipment to thoroughly screen it. Obviously a piece of wire will become an effective aerial if not earthed, so one has to ask WTF is this meant to do?

.


If you read through all the tests they conclude that it's an antennae, there's a wire that runs right around the inside of the box. Some suggest that increasing RFI noise in the system can give the perception that the 'soundstage' has expanded. Interestingly this is the positive effect many users of such devices say they hear. Assuming this is actually what is happening (which is still a big assumption) you could just plug in a very long wire and leave it unconnected to anything at the other end and get the same effect, the box is completely superfluous.

[Firebottle]

So maybe the way it works is sort of similar to adding a dither signal, if all it does is pick up and inject noise?

:scratch:

[YNWaN]

Here's some measurements done on one of the Entreq offerings. Quick summary: Performance depends on how long a wire you use to connect the system to the box. Longer wire injects more noise and distortion, short wire adds less. Probably none of it is audible. So in effect it does absolutely nothing - which is what you'd expect. However for the man who already has everything else it's a bit of fun I suppose...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

I think this quote sums it up nicely;



So that is it for now. Bottom line is that the device seemingly does nothing. The only measureable effect is the wire that goes to it. That wire acts like an unterminated antenna so picks up whatever noise there is in the vicinity and injects it into the signal path. Depending on what noise there is, and how the equipment behaves, there may be little to a lot of noise injected.

[Macca]

So maybe the way it works is sort of similar to adding a dither signal, if all it does is pick up and inject noise?

:scratch:

That was one theory advanced, although the counter to that is that the injected noise is at too low a level to make any audible difference. That seems to be a grey area though. Even if it was the case that it is audible there's still no need to buy the box to get the effect to work.

[Frazeur1]

The effectiveness of the box of shite may ultimately depend on how “wet” the shite is, for effective conductance. So it might seem one would have to adjust ones shite schedule, as well as consistency for it to work well. :)

[walpurgis]

Not necessarily. Quite possibly, the drier the better in fact, as in principle, it could rely on diodic action within the crystaline structure of the dried turd.

[Frazeur1]

Well, that could be Geoff! Guess there are quite a few smelly ways to look at this shitty situation!

[mikeyb]

Get a used xmas present box, take a massive shit in it, enjoyDoes that help the bottom end?

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[jandl100]

You can get cheapo ones from China - less than £20 in a nice looking rosewood box.

Some folks on another forum whose ears I do trust say the ridiculously priced ones (£300-500) do work to improve sq. Quite markedly so, allegedly.
So I have invested in a cheapo one from China, should arrive mid January.

Waddya mean there's one born every minute? :mental:

My vaguely thought out plan is to loan my Chinese one to the guy who forked out £500 to see how he thinks they compare.

[walpurgis]

My vaguely thought out plan is to loan my Chinese one to the guy who forked out £500 to see how he thinks they compare.

He'll probably be too busy polishing his gold plated fuses to try it. :)

[karma67]

Get a used xmas present box, take a massive shit in it, enjoy

:lol: brilliant!

[Barry]

You can get cheapo ones from China - less than £20 in a nice looking rosewood box.

Some folks on another forum whose ears I do trust say the ridiculously priced ones (£300-500) do work to improve sq. Quite markedly so, allegedly.
So I have invested in a cheapo one from China, should arrive mid January.

Waddya mean there's one born every minute? :mental:

My vaguely thought out plan is to loan my Chinese one to the guy who forked out £500 to see how he thinks they compare.

Don't do that - tell them you have paid £1,000 for it, that way it must 'sound better'.

[Pharos]

Maybe I'm being an arrogant supposed objectivist, but I didn't read through it all because my reaction was so; "This is ridiculous.

Surely if the wire is connected to earth then all the noise is shunted to ground.

[sq225917]

I think the point is that the boxes aren't connected to ground, they're just connected to the hfi, so all they do is potentially spray, very, very small ground currents all over the place.

Whatever they do it isn't higher fidelity

[Macca]

Maybe I'm being an arrogant supposed objectivist, but I didn't read through it all because my reaction was so; "This is ridiculous.

Surely if the wire is connected to earth then all the noise is shunted to ground.

The box is not a ground/earth they just call it that for marketing purposes.

[MikeMusic]

Tony from Coherent brought one in for me to plug into my system

Sceptical I was. Very sceptical.

The ears do not lie however. The improvements are big.
The more cables you connect to it the better the sound quality.

Anyone who can pop over to North West Surrey can hear for themselves

This is the Coherent RTZ. A heavy lump of Unobtainium about the size of a big paperback with RCA and other connections

[Berni217]

After reading a lot about grounding boxes and getting in touch with people who have actually tried one in their systems, I have decided to take the plunge and recently bought a second hand Entreq Silver Minimus and some cables off Tony at Coherent Systems.…

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61538-Entreq-Silver-Minimus-grounding-box

Tony was really a gent as he delivered them personally to me and gave me some recommendation on the best way to use this pretty little wooden box.

I was very sceptical at first but after a few minutes of listening, my systems which was already well balanced and lovely imho was transformed ... Lower noise floor, increased soundstage, texture and depth ... The changes have even improved since ... All with 2 cables connected to my Pre.

I can honestly say that this has been one of my Best Buy to date...

Trying & listening is believing and it seems that most of the negative comments so far are from people who have not tried a well developed grounding box in their systems. If you believe that quality cables can make a difference, you might be amazed by the improvements brought by a grounding box!

I have no other connections with Entreq or Tony from Coherent Systems. Anyone in the Oxfordshire/Berkshire area (and beyond) is welcomed to have a listen to my systems (mainly analogue).

Cheers,
B.

[sq225917]

FFS.

[Bigman80]

FFS.Didn't the measurements directly show an increase in noise floor? Or did I read that wrong?

[Macca]

Didn't the measurements directly show an increase in noise floor? Or did I read that wrong?

They do but not by a massive amount. But that was only with one cable connected.

[Bigman80]

They do but not by a massive amount. But that was only with one cable connected.Ah, ok.

[YNWaN]

How ‘massive’ the noise generated is directly depends on how long the connecting cable is - or aerial as it is otherwise known. The more cables you attach the more aerials are created.

[Macca]

That's what I was saying before. Get the level of noise up to the point where it is audible as 'improved soundstage' and off you go. But the box itself doesn't actually do anything, the wire inside it you are plugging into is just an extension of the aerial. If there is a genuine tweak here then it can be done a lot cheaper.

[Berni217]

Have anyone of you tried the damn box instead of trying to make some unfounded theories?

Mark. & Martin comments could be applied to everything related to hifi ... cables, tt, CD players, ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Macca]

Have anyone of you tried the damn box instead of trying to make some unfounded theories?

Mark. & Martin comments could be applied to everything related to hifi ... cables, tt, CD players, ...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The theorising is based on the independent measurements of one such device I posted earlier on in the thread. Granted they are just theories, not facts but they are not unfounded. IMO if the device does have a real effect then what has been suggested is likely, although not certainly, how it does it.

[tapid]

Yep, everyone s deriding the thing without even hearing one. And the people that have tried it like it !

[Berni217]

The theorising is based on the independent measurements of one such device I posted earlier on in the thread. Granted they are just theories, not facts but they are not unfounded. IMO if the device does have a real effect then what has been suggested is likely, although not certainly, how it does it.

... because you trust any said independent reviews written on the net!? I only trust my judgment and my ears!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

Scientologists use a similar box I think, or is that something else? Anyway, I'm sure they're convinced about whatever it is their box does.

[NRG]

I would hardly call a rise of up to 40db in the noise floor, no matter how far down, not a massive amount. Personally, I don’t like listening to noise and seek to reduce it where possible but each to their own.

[Macca]

... because you trust any said independent reviews written on the net!? I only trust my judgment and my ears!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not trusting anything, just discussing how the thing measured and extrapolating from that. I'm not saying it does not have any effect on the sound, It may do, I don't know as I have not heard one. I'm wondering how it might cause that effect based on the information available about it.

[Macca]

I would hardly call a rise of up to 40db in the noise floor, no matter how far down, not a massive amount. Personally, I don’t like listening to noise and seek to reduce it where possible but each to their own.

That's with a 2 metre cable, with a 6 inch cable it was just a couple of dB.

[struth]

you can get them for 75 quid, so not the earth and moon to try. rave about its qualities for a while then sell it on.

[walpurgis]

One could go the whole hog (well most of it) and complement the grounding box with a couple of Hallographs from Shakti.

http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm

Even throw in a couple of Shakti stones for good measure.

[Pharos]

From Simon;

"I think the point is that the boxes aren't connected to ground, they're just connected to the hfi, so all they do is potentially spray, very, very small ground currents all over the place.

But the wire is connected to the equipment - surely the equipment's earth?

[Stratmangler]

But the wire is connected to the equipment - surely the equipment's earth?

In many cases no it isn't - such equipment is usually compliant with the class 2 electrical regs.

[sq225917]

Yes, one or more wires from the box will be connected to one of many different ground points on the equipment, potentially a chassis earth, or maybe a signal cold, or maybe a signal 0v in case of an XLR socket. The point is that all of this different physical locations on different pieces of your hifi are all at different voltages. There is no such thing as ground/earth, it's a misnomer. Small currents flow all over your hifi across these various gnd planes and all of them are looking for the lowest impedance route back to earth, they're all ultimately looking to get back to the wall socket via that green and yellow wire in the mains plug. Adding extra lengths of cable just helps to pick up radiated noise from the environment, from adjacent wires, from routers and home plugs and overhead power lines and everything else. All these boxes do is build a haphazard aerial in the room and act as a source to receive noise which is then sprayed into all the connected hifi. It's just another loop to radiate and receive noise.

It's not a method for providing the lowest possible impedance route back to the main power earth for all current flowing on any ground plane and across any component chassis, it's the exact opposite of that in fact.

[struth]

one i saw had a mains plug and a single wire, presumably from the earth pin going to an rca plug. box had an rca socket on one side. supposedly had tourmaline inside that you had to level after shipping. I take it it had rca's on another side for grounding your equipment but cant be sure.https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mAIAAOSw-3FZAf~Y/s-l500.jpg

[NRG]

That's with a 2 metre cable, with a 6 inch cable it was just a couple of dB.

The manual states 15cm is the minimum distance and to place the unit at the bottom of the rack, if I had one I’d need at least 1~1.5m as my rack is full and the unit would have to sit a way from it which I suspect would be the situation in a lot of cases.

[Macca]

The manual states 15cm is the minimum distance and to place the unit at the bottom of the rack, if I had one I’d need at least 1~1.5m as my rack is full and the unit would have to sit a way from it which I suspect would be the situation in a lot of cases.

6 inches is about 15 cm isn't it? I did learn metric at school but to be honest my heart wasn't in it.

[struth]

6 inches is about 15 cm isn't it? I did learn metric at school but to be honest my heart wasn't in it.

was taught it was more than enough:ner:

[NRG]

6 inches is about 15 cm isn't it? I did learn metric at school but to be honest my heart wasn't in it.

Well at least you where paying attention in one part of the lesson

[Macca]

was taught it was more than enough:ner:

It does get a bit nippy up there in Jockland though so the birds aren't expecting miracales :D

[struth]

It does get a bit nippy up there in Jockland though so the birds aren't expecting miracales :D

yeah, you don't want to catch frostbite as well:stalks:

[jandl100]

I've got one of these (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-Cylindrical-Wooden-Chaissis-Audio-Grounding-Box-GND-With-Crocodile-Lip/263155369632?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) on the way from China to have a play with.

£19 all in.

Quite pretty!

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iSQAAOSw~iRZmDLN/s-l1600.jpg

I wonder if it's an empty box!? :scratch: :lol:

[dave2010]

I've got one of these (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-Cylindrical-Wooden-Chaissis-Audio-Grounding-Box-GND-With-Crocodile-Lip/263155369632?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) on the way from China to have a play with.

£19 all in.

Quite pretty!

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iSQAAOSw~iRZmDLN/s-l1600.jpg

I wonder if it's an empty box!? :scratch: :lol:What's that supposed to do? Puzzled!

[struth]

I've got one of these (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-Cylindrical-Wooden-Chaissis-Audio-Grounding-Box-GND-With-Crocodile-Lip/263155369632?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) on the way from China to have a play with.

£19 all in.

Quite pretty!

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iSQAAOSw~iRZmDLN/s-l1600.jpg

I wonder if it's an empty box!? :scratch: :lol:

saw those. pretty little tube if nothing else. oddly my wife was a crystal fanatic and there are hundreds in house. guess i could make one.

[Firebottle]

To look pretty, not as pretty as a duck though.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/1VlhLd3gloFh1yICZwPD3pyzSo0=/0x0:1000x605/920x613/filters:focal(420x223:580x383):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/48780381/duck.0.png

[jandl100]

Now that's the truth, Alan. :thumbsup:

[jandl100]

What's that supposed to do? Puzzled!

It's a cheapo 'grounding box', Dave. That's the point of the thread, really. ;)

You hook the clip on to some part of the chassis of a hifi component.
Said to have some 'semi-conductor' gunk inside it, I think, that makes everything sound wonderfuller.
Although on here it seems that the folks who actually understand electronics think it's just the wire sticking out acting as an RF aerial that is injecting noise into the hifi that people like the sound of.
-- bit like adding dither to digital, maybe?

[walpurgis]

It's a cheapo 'grounding box', Dave. That's the point of the thread, really. ;)

Surely the more expensive the better? If it's ridiculously dear it must be good! :)


Anyway, what is being 'grounded'? Surely connecting something (anything?) to an item of equipment on the earth side grounds nothing unless the unit connected (grounding box) is also grounded to the mains earth?

[jandl100]

Anyway, what is being 'grounded'? Surely connecting something (anything?) to an item of equipment on the earth side grounds nothing unless the unit connected (grounding box) is also grounded to the mains earth?

Don't ask me, I just fall for the hype. :mental: :lol:

Anyway, I'll be sure to post my findings once mine arrives. :)

[walpurgis]

Maybe 'magic crystals' are involved. Be careful with that stuff, you don't want to end up opening a warp in the continuum, that could upset the neighbours. :)

[jandl100]

You mean it might do this to my carpet?

Wow, awesome!

https://mk0speedproimagx0ns8.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/10/illusion-carpet.jpg

[Macca]

With your carpet that would be an improvement :D

[MikeMusic]

Since my RTZ grounding box has been here I have seen no aliens so it must keep them away as well

[sq225917]

So here I am laying out pcb's to replace the EHT and input boards inside my Quad 63's and then sending them off for manufacture and you lot are hanging chunks of wood off crocodile clips from your hifi.

"Those who can do, those who can't foo." T-shirts will be available next week.

The printed graphic is an M.C Escher alike design that transforms from electronic component symbols on one side to unicorn poop on the other.

[walpurgis]

unicorn poop

Where do you get that from? I've checked online and can't see a supplier :).

[YNWaN]

When dried it resembles gravel, I can source you some but PIOA.

[Wakefield Turntables]

WOW, quite a discussion with two very distinct camps. I'm still quite happy to sit on the fence with this one. I honestly quite believe the price of these boxes! Incidently I did try shitting in an old Xmas pressie box as suggested and noticed a massive improvement in bass impact, filigree detail in every department, all in all a very cheap and effective upgrade! :D

[walpurgis]

Yes, you have a lot to answer for Andrew. :D

I see you've also been tormenting the poor souls over at Lenco Heaven with this.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes, you have a lot to answer for Andrew. :D

I see you've also been tormenting the poor souls over at Lenco Heaven with this.

Always a good idea to get as many opinions as possible, always fun to hear responses and theories.

[sq225917]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/balanced-fft-32k-with-and-without-entreq-with-overlay-png.1792/

Here's my theory. Solid hard n fast measured 30db+ increase in noise.

[struth]

whats entreq again? is that the grounding box?

[RobbieGong]

WOW, quite a discussion with two very distinct camps. I'm still quite happy to sit on the fence with this one. I honestly quite believe the price of these boxes! Incidently I did try shitting in an old Xmas pressie box as suggested and noticed a massive improvement in bass impact, filigree detail in every department, all in all a very cheap and effective upgrade! :D

Bet the 'hum' was unbearable though :eek: :D

[dave2010]

It's a cheapo 'grounding box', Dave. That's the point of the thread, really. ;)

You hook the clip on to some part of the chassis of a hifi component.
Said to have some 'semi-conductor' gunk inside it, I think, that makes everything sound wonderfuller.
Although on here it seems that the folks who actually understand electronics think it's just the wire sticking out acting as an RF aerial that is injecting noise into the hifi that people like the sound of.
-- bit like adding dither to digital, maybe?Seriously? Wouldn't a wire immersed in a jar of snake oil grounded to the water mains do just as well?

[struth]

at least he is trying one to see. then he can voice a qualified opinion. you never know, although im inclined to think it would increase noise,there is really only one way to find out for sure

[Pharos]

I love this thread.

To me, al that is being done is earthing a box via a wire and croc clip to the earth of the equipment, which may provide some minimal screening. I can't even see why it would introduce noise.

However the divided camps and the ridicule are wonderful; what a lovely, innocent, and mad pursuit audiophilia is.

[Wakefield Turntables]

What a lovely, innocent, and mad pursuit audiophilia is.

I think that just about sums this thread up!

[struth]

like most things we are allowed our opinions. But even an educated mind needs to try to be sure. dont think my system would show any improvement to me tho.

[jandl100]

at least he is trying one to see. then he can voice a qualified opinion. you never know, although im inclined to think it would increase noise,there is really only one way to find out for sure

19 squids?

My goodness, I've made waaaaay more expensive hifi mistakes than that!! :doh: :D

[dave2010]

Since my RTZ grounding box has been here I have seen no aliens so it must keep them away as wellMy father in law had a rowen tree in his garden. Said it kept witches away. It worked - we never saw one.

[alphaGT]

Seriously? Wouldn't a wire immersed in a jar of snake oil grounded to the water mains do just as well?

No, that’s nothing like the ground box, because it’s actually attached to ground, and may actually work!

Russell

[walpurgis]

No, that’s nothing like the ground box, because it’s actually attached to ground, and may actually work!

Russell

Possibly nearly as well as an uninterrupted length of plain wire to earth.

[MikeMusic]

For those who wish to try a grounding box or have recently placed one in their system...

My ears told me the sound quality has consistently improved since the RTZ came in.
Over days and weeks.

Very pleasant surprise

Happy bunny
:)

[dave2010]

If the people who are reporting improvements with this aren't simply wind-up merchants, it is just possible that there is an effect, though as I'd guess completely uncontrolled - with maybe random noise injection - very difficult to be sure, or repeatable.

Subjective impressions are also very difficult to assess scientifically.

Some more reliable assessment could be done by feeding in known levels of low level noise. Years ago I experimented with injecting low levels of digital noise into audio. If the noise is at a low enough level it is all but inaudible. One effect, which seemed real to me was that it appeared to reduce the volume level. This is just about plausible if one considers that maybe our ears+hearing relate sounds to a threshold level. This is only speculative however. If the noise threshold is raised - but otherwise seemingly inaudible - then the perceived dynamic range could be lower. Whether this is a good thing or not - who can say? It may also be that there is some apparent smoothing of the sounds reproduced.

It could of course all just be a box of ... well somebody upthread mentioned it!

[dave2010]

Bet the 'hum' was unbearable though :eek: :DMaybe not, but there was probably a lot of buzzing!

[dave2010]

Since joining this thread I started reading from the top down. Yesterday I was watching a film, and reading this. Cracked me up after a few pages. Very entertaining.

[Macca]

For those who wish to try a grounding box or have recently placed one in their system...

My ears told me the sound quality has consistently improved since the RTZ came in.
Over days and weeks.

Very pleasant surprise

Happy bunny
:)

I don't understand why you were surprised as you've tried a lot of <debatable> tweaks in your system (mains cables, special fuses, special stands, cones, weights etc) and you always report an improvement. Didn't you also find that putting granite place mats on top of the RTZ and 'black ravioli' feet under it improved the sound?


Sorry but I don't really buy your line that you were sceptical about this device to begin with and were amazed that it had an effect.

[walpurgis]

Actually, when grounding boxes are mentioned, the thing that usually springs to my mind is one of these.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2m5le7p.jpg

[hifi_dave]

Now, that's a good one..:lol:

Even has brass grounding posts on the side.

[Macca]

One for the enthusiast who is dead keen.

[earsopen]

Love this thread! Read it from start to finish and found it full of prejudice, and mostly written by people who have never tried grounding, but know it cannot work.

It's like a mutual negative opinion reinforcement society for those with closed minds. 'It wouldn't work in my system! I do not need to try it!'

Even when people who have used grounding state how positive the results have been, they are ignored or rebutted because it goes against the fixed opinion which has become the theme of the thread by those who have not tried grounding.

Hey, we found a graph online and it proves our opinion so let's use that to make our argument and reinforce our prejudices, and we can make up our own theories to fit around it. It would not be proper to have an open mind, and wait until you have heard a demonstration, or better still, tried grounding in your own system because you know it just cannot work.

So manufacturers like Entreq, Nordost, Vertex AQ and others manufacture passive grounding boxes because they obviously cannot work, and when people purchase the boxes and try them in their systems they then purchase more because they cannot hear any differences? Of course they can't, so they buy more because the box count looks more impressive. Then there are the active ground boxes which use electronics to fool the gullible listener, and since they are expensive there is no way they can work, can they?

Well, grounding boxes do work. They can work very well and produce improvements to what you hear that cannot be gained in any other way.

New Years resolutions to self - 1) keep an open mind 2) leave these closed mind threads alone

[sq225917]

Well, when they've been measured they are found to do nothing but introduce noise. So I'm likely to believe that's their primary modal function. When someone who uses lots of tweaks like fuses and CD mats says it sounds better then I just discount it as being an opinion with no reference to higher fidelity, which is all I'm after, measurably better sound.

I don't doubt for one minute that the removal of stray ground currents can remove low level background noise, and even significant hum in some instances. But ill repeat it for the benefit of doubt. These boxes do nothing that adding random wires to your hifi wouldnt do. You might hit lucky and link two components up in such a way that you improve system grounding, but you could have hit lucky in exactly the same way with 6 foot of wire and two crocodile clips.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well, grounding boxes do work. They can work very well and produce improvements to what you hear that cannot be gained in any other way.


How? Explain please.

[Macca]

So manufacturers like Entreq, Nordost, Vertex AQ and others manufacture passive grounding boxes because they obviously cannot work, and when people purchase the boxes and try them in their systems they then purchase more because they cannot hear any differences? Of course they can't, so they buy more because the box count looks more impressive. Then there are the active ground boxes which use electronics to fool the gullible listener, and since they are expensive there is no way they can work, can they?

Well, grounding boxes do work. They can work very well and produce improvements to what you hear that cannot be gained in any other way.

New Years resolutions to self - 1) keep an open mind 2) leave these closed mind threads alone

I think you are swinging too far the other way. Personally I don't dismiss the idea that the concept can have an audible effect, as pointed out raising the noise floor by 40dB is likely to be audible in some way and this may well increase perceived sound quality, because perceived sound quality is funny like that. Take the enhanced soundstage of vinyl over digital for example, that effect occurs because vinyl is technically worse than digital with a much higher noise floor. Psychoacoustics can be counter-intuitive like that.

Assuming the effect is real then I am interested to understand how it is achieved. I regret that I am not the sort who will simply buy one because someone else tried one and says it works - I need to firstly understand what it is doing and how it is doing it because it may well be possible to get the same effect far more cheaply or indeed for nothing.

[Berni217]

Well, when they've been measured they are found to do nothing but introduce noise. So I'm likely to believe that's their primary modal function. When someone who uses lots of tweaks like fuses and CD mats says it sounds better then I just discount it as being an opinion with no reference to higher fidelity, which is all I'm after, measurably better sound.

I don't doubt for one minute that the removal of stray ground currents can remove low level background noise, and even significant hum in some instances. But ill repeat it for the benefit of doubt. These boxes do nothing that adding random wires to your hifi wouldnt do. You might hit lucky and link two components up in such a way that you improve system grounding, but you could have hit lucky in exactly the same way with 6 foot of wire and two crocodile clips.

Well, I don’t use tweaks in my systems Mr... and I have also reported some improvement. You may want to read up again Mr The Expert!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think you are swinging too far the other way. Personally I don't dismiss the idea that the concept can have an audible effect, as pointed out raising the noise floor by 40dB is likely to be audible in some way and this may well increase perceived sound quality, because perceived sound quality is funny like that. Take the enhanced soundstage of vinyl over digital for example, that effect occurs because vinyl is technically worse than digital with a much higher noise floor. Psychoacoustics can be counter-intuitive like that.

Assuming the effect is real then I am interested to understand how it is achieved. I regret that I am not the sort who will simply buy one because someone else tried one and says it works - I need to firstly understand what it is doing and how it is doing it because it may well be possible to get the same effect far more cheaply or indeed for nothing.

Well put Martin, I think your response pretty much mirror's my feelings on the subject.


Well, I don’t use tweaks in my systems Mr... and I have also reported some improvement. You may want to read up again Mr The Expert!

Eh! You don't use tweaks, yet you report some improvement. Where exactly? Have you tried the grounding box in your equipment and then heard an improvement? I don't understand your comments, can you clarify?

[struth]

other tweaks i think he meant.....

[Berni217]

Well put Martin, I think your response pretty much mirror's my feelings on the subject.



Eh! You don't use tweaks, yet you report some improvement. Where exactly? Have you tried the grounding box in your equipment and then heard an improvement? I don't understand your comments, can you clarify?

Please read my post ...
Reading your signatures, you are using many many more tweaks than me in your systems Mr.

Anyway, I am just a music lover and you should ask the experts how these boxes work ... my understanding is that the Entreq use piezo electric material to convert RFI into heat.

The Silver Minimus Entreq works for me, in my system. It might not work in others but I don’t really care!

This thread is becoming ridiculous because of you people who have not tried these boxes and are writing some elaborated and unfounded judgment.

Like anything Hifi, please get in touch with a dealer and get a home demo,it will cost you almost nothing!

This is my last post on this topic!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Firebottle]

OK I have a theory, but that's all it is. Hear me out.

These days we are all surrounded by radio/mobile/TV/wi-fi radio frequency (RF) signals, a lot in fact.
The tests performed on the grounding box were only at audio frequencies.

When in a patchy mobile coverage area I have found that standing next to a metal lamp/electricity pole improves things.

Exactly how all this RF impacts on the performance of any system is questionable, but having a lump of unobrainious material may just act as a local RF sink that concentrates the RF fields away from system, to the benefit of the system as a whole.

:sofa:

[MikeMusic]

I don't understand why you were surprised as you've tried a lot of <debatable> tweaks in your system (mains cables, special fuses, special stands, cones, weights etc) and you always report an improvement. Didn't you also find that putting granite place mats on top of the RTZ and 'black ravioli' feet under it improved the sound?

Sorry but I don't really buy your line that you were sceptical about this device to begin with and were amazed that it had an effect.

All tweaks are debatable Try before you buy
What is in this system now works and very well.
A Grounding box seemed a flight of fancy to me, maybe there could be a subtle difference - I thought
The RTZ comes with Black Ravioli fitted.
The improvements were noticeable with each cable added
Yes, I tried a granite placemat on the RTZ, knowing it wouldn't make any difference. Surprised it did.
A brick would probably work as well just won't look so good

As above I can demo this in North West Surrey
Try any of the tweaks above in any decent system and there will be an improvement.

Grounding boxes is Mains cables squared in most places.

If anyone wants to hear more from their system try some, all of this stuff out.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Please read my post ...
Reading your signatures, you are using many many more tweaks than me in your systems Mr.

Anyway, I am just a music lover and you should ask the experts how these boxes work ... my understanding is that the Entreq use piezo electric material to convert RFI into heat.

The Silver Minimus Entreq works for me, in my system. It might not work in others but I don’t really care!

This thread is becoming ridiculous because of you people who have not tried these boxes and are writing some elaborated and unfounded judgment.

Like anything Hifi, please get in touch with a dealer and get a home demo,it will cost you almost nothing!

This is my last post on this topic!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aha, so you do use a "tweak" in the form of a grounding box, earlier, you said you didn't?? To date I have made no comment or opinion on how these components work. I'm open to try one, and yes I love to "tweak" hi-fi. So I would suggest you read MY posts before posting any further additional confusing and confrontation replies.


OK I have a theory, but that's all it is. Hear me out.

These days we are all surrounded by radio/mobile/TV/wi-fi radio frequency (RF) signals, a lot in fact.
The tests performed on the grounding box were only at audio frequencies.

When in a patchy mobile coverage area I have found that standing next to a metal lamp/electricity pole improves things.

Exactly how all this RF impacts on the performance of any system is questionable, but having a lump of unobrainious material may just act as a local RF sink that concentrates the RF fields away from system, to the benefit of the system as a whole.

:sofa:

Well, it sounds as good as anything else.

[sq225917]

Alan how does it sink this rf? Through the extraneous wire that connects it to the hifi???

Or do you believe it 'clears the air' to coin a phrase? In which case plugging it directly to the wall is a better sink, surely?

On one hand we have a guy with an Audio Precision showing it injects 30db of broadband noise into a connected device and on the other hand we have vapid conjecture.

I'm ok with the line ' I like the sound of an extra 30db of broadband noise polluting my signal path' people are want to
like all sorts on un-fi shit.

I look forward to the manufacturer showing any case in which it reduces noise. Roflmao...

[AJSki2fly]

:doh::doh::doh:

[struth]

we are straying toward insulting folks opinions tho, so remember folks, this is a subjectivist site and folk are allowed to discuss this without being slagged off..

[Firebottle]

Alan how does it sink this rf? Through the extraneous wire that connects it to the hifi???

Or do you believe it 'clears the air' to coin a phrase? In which case plugging it directly to the wall is a better sink, surely?
Roflmao...

I didn't say I believed anything, I put forward a theory that's all.

Perhaps it acts as an RF field concentrator that removes the concentration from the hi-fi boxes? Sink is the wrong word.

[Mixc]

This thread has made me smile..
Some post are serious and some not so...
I did a google on Entreq and found a lot of adverts, Lots of shops selling these ??
I also found a discussion from 2 years ago titled...
"VEntreq: $9,000 for a Wood Box of Dirt" There are some good posts (Worth a read if you liked this thread)

Its here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/entreq-9-000-for-a-wood-box-of-dirt.828707/

PS Happy New Year to everyone

[dave2010]

In post 87 I gave a hint of a suggestion - but not an explanation. The suggestion that the box raises the noise level - could perhaps have an effect, but not at the levels suggested. To get any effect the noise level would have to be (IMO) around or above the threshold of audibility. Measurements way down below the threshold of audibility - no! Not credible - IMO.

[dave2010]

I love this thread.

To me, al that is being done is earthing a box via a wire and croc clip to the earth of the equipment, which may provide some minimal screening. I can't even see why it would introduce noise.

However the divided camps and the ridicule are wonderful; what a lovely, innocent, and mad pursuit audiophilia is.
Audophilia - you make it sound like a disease. :lol: :lol:

[Puffin]

Years ago someone (no names mentioned - but a purveyor of tweaky treats) added a grounding socket (linked to PE) to a 6 socket extension so that a length of wire could be attached to the casing of an amp or other piece of equipment. Would this have done anything?

[Stratmangler]

Years ago someone (no names mentioned - but a purveyor of tweaky treats) added a grounding socket (linked to PE) to a 6 socket extension so that a length of wire could be attached to the casing of an amp or other piece of equipment. Would this have done anything?

By PE you mean power earth?
Yes, it would have provided a physical earth connection.

[walpurgis]

I had my system blessed by a Jedi Master (at least, that's what he said he was). It sounds totally unbelievable now (I just wish it was a little more believable though). His parting words were "the farce is strong in this one". Funny, I'd actually thought the word was supposed to be 'force', but there you go.

[struth]

I had my system blessed by a Jedi Master (at least, that's what he said he was). It sounds unbelievable now (I just wish it was a little more believable though). His parting words were "the farce is strong in this one". Funny, I'd actually thought the word was supposed to be 'force', but there you go.

i blessed my own :D only person who would:ner:

[sq225917]

Years ago someone (no names mentioned - but a purveyor of tweaky treats) added a grounding socket (linked to PE) to a 6 socket extension so that a length of wire could be attached to the casing of an amp or other piece of equipment. Would this have done anything?


Yup it would do what this box doesn't- provide a path to earth for small currents flowing in the chassis and across the signal gnd. Perfectly practical, if somewhat hit and miss.

[Barry]

How are these 'grounding boxes' connected to the equipment whose performance they are supposed to improve? Are they connected to the metal casing, or are they connected to the outer signal-return of an RCA phono socket?

[YNWaN]

They are connected to the return of an RCA connector and you are supposed to plug them into an unused socket on the back of your amp etc. They are supposed to be for signal ground, not mains ground/earth. Having said that, signal and mains ground are often connected within components - at least, in the UK they are...

[Edward]

Does anyone here (Simon? Alan?) have a signal generator/analyser and oscilloscope that could be used to replicate the tests used in the article linked to earlier in this thread?

For example I have a Russ Andrews power purifier with its claritymains and zapparator modules that could be tested. There modules claim to purify mains, reject RFI etc.

[Barry]

So if these boxes (and their connecting cables) act as inefficient antennae to RFI, the RFI will be injected into the audio circuitry on its way to the mains earth. The impedance will be low (not necessarily zero) so too will the injected currents. It is hard to see how these devices could have any effect.

[struth]

One I saw connected to mains earth as it had a plug and presumably an earth wire going to a rca plug. Douke audio on ebay

[struth]

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 282449868166

[YNWaN]

It’s a bit garbled but the description of that eBay item does indeed mention a IEC mains lead. I was thinking of the Entreque boxes, those sold by certain high-end audio dealerships - they definately do not connect to the mains (except indirectly via shared signal and mains ground connections).

[alphaGT]

Possibly nearly as well as an uninterrupted length of plain wire to earth.

Exactly!

At least it’s in a circuit.

Russell

[jandl100]

Well, I'm happy to use and believe that I hear distinct differences and improvements in sound quality from interconnect and mains cables and am happy to spend my money on them, even though there are no objective tests that I know of or solidly grounded (sorry!) scientific reasons why they should work in this way.

I'm happy to try grounding boxes with the same attitude and I am looking forward to receiving my one and having a go!

[antonio]

Looking forward to your findings Jandl. I've heard the difference a Entreq Poseidon makes, that's why there is one in the system I am listening to at present, oh and it replaced a Silver Tellus.

[Leeken]

Anyone ever took one of these apart to see what is inside?

[walpurgis]

Anyone ever took one of these apart to see what is inside?

A little note saying "Sucker!" maybe?

[Firebottle]

You can even buy an 'upgraded' tubular nut for the Entreq grounding boxes, with even extra claimed performance:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ground-Booster-For-Entreq-Grounding-Boxes-UPGRADE-As-Everest-is/183436734938?hash=item2ab5ae71da:g:N-IAAOSwwf1bdEPh:rk:2:pf:0

' Simply replace the wooden clamp on your entreq box with this and you will hear an improvement in soundstage, detail and placement around vocals and instruments, bass is tighter and the overall effect is a far more engaging sound.'

Ha.

[Yomanze]

If these make an audible difference, then it can only mean that some people *prefer* a higher noise floor. This is interesting in itself as it isn’t the first time I have heard people preferring higher distortion. I don’t like how these are called grounding boxes though. They are indeed aerials. No current will magically flow into the box and get absorbed.

[Leeken]

The boxes look like the coffins you get your cat/dog/horse back in from animal cremations,the insides seem to resemble something out of steptoes yard.

[sq225917]

That some people prefer added noise isnt an idea i have trouble with. If broadband and low level the effect can be akin to digital dither.

It's not for me though.

I have a scope but you really need an AP or high spec signal gen plus noise analyser, I'd struggle to measure much below 0.1mv with any real accuracy.

We can take the graph I posted at face value, archimago knows how to use his tools. It is of course only one measure with one bit of kit, it's indicative of what's happening with the DUT that he used.

[Macca]

If these make an audible difference, then it can only mean that some people *prefer* a higher noise floor. This is interesting in itself as it isn’t the first time I have heard people preferring higher distortion. I don’t like how these are called grounding boxes though. They are indeed aerials. No current will magically flow into the box and get absorbed.

Purely marketing to those who don't recall their 'O' level physics. It's a pleasant idea to think that the sound improvement comes from all those nasty eddy currents (or whatever) being 'drained' away. They're selling the sizzle, not the steak.

What's interesting from a psychological point of view is that users of these devices say they make a perceived sonic improvement and that speculating on how they work is irrelevant.

But they don't like the suggestion, or the evidence, that the subjective improvement is probably due to an increase in noise as opposed to a decrease.

They are not keen on that despite claiming that the subjective effect is all that matters.

That's why they are called 'Grounding boxes' and not 'Add a load of spurious RF noise to your system boxes.' If they were called the latter they wouldn't sell a single one, regardless of how beneficial the subjective effect was.

[hifi_dave]

Anyone ever took one of these apart to see what is inside?

There are some pics on the www, showing wooden box with some gravel/coal, chippings of some sort and a bit of bare copper wire.

Regardless of whether they work or not, how can the prices be justified as they can't cost more than £30 or so to put together ?

[Macca]

There are some pics on the www, showing wooden box with some gravel/coal, chippings of some sort and a bit of bare copper wire.

Regardless of whether they work or not, how can the prices be justified as they can't cost more than £30 or so to put together ?

Our old friend 'research and development.' Plus distributor and dealer margins and 20 percent VAT.

[sq225917]

https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/9452931.jpg

[Wakefield Turntables]

Our old friend 'research and development.' Plus distributor and dealer margins and 20 percent VAT.

Which still doesn't equal several grand.

[Macca]

Which still doesn't equal several grand.

Jerry's getting one from China for a tenner though. Or something like that.


Copper is quite pricey now though isn't it? And there seems to be quite a lot of it in those boxes pictured above.

[dave2010]

Anyone ever took one of these apart to see what is inside?I certainly don't want to open any made according to design suggestions from this thread.

Objective testing of subjective opinions is actually rather hard to do. I was once "tricked" in a test to see which of three audio samples I "liked". I selected the lowest bit rate mp3 - which raised a lot of amusement. However, I had no control over the source material, nor did I know how good the original recording was. Of the three samples I heard (of the same piece of Tchaikovsky), I wasn't sure if it was the one with the high frequencies - which were distorted (IMO) or the smoothest sounding one - which was the low bit rate mp3. mp3 always introduces distortion - but it may be benign depending on the nature. Low bit rate mp3 might just behave as a low pass filter, depending on how low the bit rate actually is, thus not actually unpleasant. Medium bit rate might sound worse.

If the tests are done where the subject has access to the original sound source - then the "objective" tests can give different results. In my case I was not asked which was closest to a known reference - that was something the testers (who were students) didn't think to try.

Such tests need to be done by others, and preferably at least double blind, so that researcher bias is largely precluded. The tests need to be done over an extended period, to give repeatabiliity.

[struth]

looks like obsidian cuttings(waste product) and probably is, with some cheap quartz on top. a bit of copper to stop it all moving about too much. a cheap as chips pine box. only one connector too so yo will need several.:rolleyes:

[Macca]

looks like obsidian cuttings(waste product) and probably is, with some cheap quartz on top. a bit of copper to stop it all moving about too much. a cheap as chips pine box. only one connector too so yo will need several.:rolleyes:

Some say the black stuff is magnetite.

[struth]

Some say the black stuff is magnetite.

it is very much attracted to a magnet so easy to find out. I bet its obsidian tho. cheap as chips as it comes from lava and there's plenty around. Very sharp and often used by surgeons as its even sharper than steel scalpels.got a few big bits in house. Buried the wife with a bit of heart shaped obsidian, as she loved her stones.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jerry's getting one from China for a tenner though. Or something like that.


Copper is quite pricey now though isn't it? And there seems to be quite a lot of it in those boxes pictured above.

Yes but not several grands worth, this is what several grand will by copper wise... http://scrapmetalreaders.co.uk/scrap-metal-prices/

[Macca]

Yes but not several grands worth, this is what several grand will by copper wise... http://scrapmetalreaders.co.uk/scrap-metal-prices/

Fair point.

[Pharos]

I'd be amazed if it really does improve sound, and DBTs are necessary with 0.1dB matching of levels which shouldn't be hard to do.

Much as I want to be open to a new tweek that works, this is to me for placebophiles.

[earsopen]

Strange that some of you persist in stating that a grounding box ' injects more noise' into a system. What an odd concept, and where did it come from?

Early on in this thread somebody posted a link to a site where a 'scientific' experiment took place, with lovely analyzer pictures to prove whatever, but the 'expert' did not measure the right thing. All he did when faced with a grounding box with one terminal, was connect a wire and measure that. Well, guess what? It acted as an aerial, just like the wire I used on an old radio so I could hear the music. Oh, and the short piece of wire (small aerial) picked up less signal than the long piece of wire (larger aerial). That's what wire does, it picks up signals.

If he had just put an amplifier on the bench, then added some speaker cables what would have happened? The cables would act as an aerial and pick up a signal because that is what wire does, but you wouldn't reject the use of speaker cables just because of that or your system would be very, very quiet.

In other words, those tests proved nothing about the grounding box itself, or the effect that it had.

You would need to be measuring inside the equipment that the grounding box was connected to, and that would be very difficult.

Better still, beg borrow or audition a grounding box in your own system. Difficult I know because for a while you would need to open your mind, suspend scepticism and submit to the tweaky foo side for a while, but if you could manage to, you would understand why these boxes have become a very common feature of many systems.

[Macca]

Strange that some of you persist in stating that a grounding box ' injects more noise' into a system. What an odd concept, and where did it come from?

Early on in this thread somebody posted a link to a site where a 'scientific' experiment took place, with lovely analyzer pictures to prove whatever, but the 'expert' did not measure the right thing. All he did when faced with a grounding box with one terminal, was connect a wire and measure that. Well, guess what? It acted as an aerial, just like the wire I used on an old radio so I could hear the music. Oh, and the short piece of wire (small aerial) picked up less signal than the long piece of wire (larger aerial). That's what wire does, it picks up signals.

If he had just put an amplifier on the bench, then added some speaker cables what would have happened? The cables would act as an aerial and pick up a signal because that is what wire does, but you wouldn't reject the use of speaker cables just because of that or your system would be very, very quiet.

In other words, those tests proved nothing about the grounding box itself, or the effect that it had.

You would need to be measuring inside the equipment that the grounding box was connected to, and that would be very difficult.

.

I think you missed this:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

'My Audio Precision Analyzer which you see to the right of my desk below the Stax headphone amps has both an analog generator and analyzer. So I set up a simple test connecting the output of the generator to the analyzer. I then ran a THD+N test. This is a test where a 1 Khz signal is played by the generator. The analyzer has a filter at 1 Khz which sucks that tone out. Everything that is left is noise and distortion.

I ran the test two ways, without and with Entreq'

[YNWaN]

The idea that these ‘grounding’ boxes inject noise into the system comes from the measurements linked to near the start of the thread.

Bob, I’m afraid the points you raise are nonsensical in an electrical sense.

[Firebottle]

I don't necessarily think so.
The test made was a construct, in that a 1Khz tone was used being 'just' coupled to an analyser.

I din't think that is sufficiently close to a system playing audio to draw valid conclusions.

[Wakefield Turntables]

You would need to be measuring inside the equipment that the grounding box was connected to, and that would be very difficult.



Suppose the designer of the grounding box knows this. It would be very difficult to properly define just what these boxes do and how they do it, and ultimately therefore deny or confirm if they actually produce an improvement in hi-fidelity musical reproduction. I don't like the idea of that.

[Macca]

Music is just multiple tones though. It isn't fundamentally different from a single tone.

[sq225917]

I would have preferred it if archimago had tested it exactly as its intended to be used in a system, testing it any other way tells you nothing about how it performs in a system.

that said, if one further read through that thread you'll see he tested it with just wire and also same wire and entreq box and the noise was worse with the box attached to the wire. So wire acts as an aerial and so does the box.

All it does is add a source of low level broadband noise.

[Macca]

All it does is add a source of low level broadband noise.

Which could be perceived as an increase in sound quality. Trouble is you can't easily test for that as Entreq claim the effect takes time to come on and then fades away over time even after you've removed the gadget. Which is convenient. So you have to try it for yourself and see, knowing the thing is in there, and then try to detect an effect which is going to gradually come over time.

I mean if the effect is very obvious then no problemo. But I gather it is not, it seems to be a very subtle enhancement of soundstage and image placement, going by the testimonials. I'm not sure I would even notice it. especially with the sort of music I usually play.

[Pharos]

I think that scientific methodology should be adhered to; DB tests.

We should also avoid sophism and non sequiturs.

[Barry]

Which could be perceived as an increase in sound quality. Trouble is you can't easily test for that as Entreq claim the effect takes time to come on and then fades away over time even after you've removed the gadget. Which is convenient. So you have to try it for yourself and see, knowing the thing is in there, and then try to detect an effect which is going to gradually come over time.

I mean if the effect is very obvious then no problemo. But I gather it is not, it seems to be a very subtle enhancement of soundstage and image placement, going by the testimonials. I'm not sure I would even notice it. especially with the sort of music I usually play.

Not according to Bernard:

After reading a lot about grounding boxes and getting in touch with people who have actually tried one in their systems, I have decided to take the plunge and recently bought a second hand Entreq Silver Minimus and some cables off Tony at Coherent Systems.…

https://theartofsound.net/forum/show...-grounding-box

Tony was really a gent as he delivered them personally to me and gave me some recommendation on the best way to use this pretty little wooden box.

I was very sceptical at first but after a few minutes of listening, my systems which was already well balanced and lovely imho was transformed ... Lower noise floor, increased soundstage, texture and depth ... The changes have even improved since ... All with 2 cables connected to my Pre.

I can honestly say that this has been one of my Best Buy to date...

Trying & listening is believing and it seems that most of the negative comments so far are from people who have not tried a well developed grounding box in their systems. If you believe that quality cables can make a difference, you might be amazed by the improvements brought by a grounding box!

I have no other connections with Entreq or Tony from Coherent Systems. Anyone in the Oxfordshire/Berkshire area (and beyond) is welcomed to have a listen to my systems (mainly analogue).

Cheers,
B.

Be most obvious 'covering of one's back' by Entreq is their disclaimer that their Grounding Boxes may not benefit some systems.

So we have the usual dichotomy with these devices: the sceptics think them absurd and will not try them; the believers will say if they have not been tried then one cannot comment. Even if the sceptical try one and hear no difference whatsoever, then the protagonists will say their system is not resolving enough, or that the listener's hearing is inadequate ..... And so it goes on.

[cyclopse]

You can even buy an 'upgraded' tubular nut for the Entreq grounding boxes, with even extra claimed performance:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ground-Booster-For-Entreq-Grounding-Boxes-UPGRADE-As-Everest-is/183436734938?hash=item2ab5ae71da:g:N-IAAOSwwf1bdEPh:rk:2:pf:0

' Simply replace the wooden clamp on your entreq box with this and you will hear an improvement in soundstage, detail and placement around vocals and instruments, bass is tighter and the overall effect is a far more engaging sound.'

Ha.

The interesting fact is that these are just generic zinc plated threaded rod nuts. Got a pack of ten for much less than this is listed for.

[sq225917]

Macca, next they'll be claiming that the reason it takes time to work is because the box filling takes time to charge itself up to working level due to the small currents running through the ground. (current, via a single wire, with no return ?)

[Macca]

Macca, next they'll be claiming that the reason it takes time to work is because the box filling takes time to charge itself up to working level due to the small currents running through the ground. (current, via a single wire, with no return ?)

They don't need to say anything it would seem. Entreq happily sent the box in to be measured so clearly they are not bothered what that turned up -I suppose as it's not going to make a blind bit of difference to someone who has heard the effect and decided they want one.

[Pharos]

' Simply replace the wooden clamp on your entreq box with this and you will hear an improvement in soundstage, detail and placement around vocals and instruments, bass is tighter and the overall effect is a far more engaging sound.'

Not difficult to imagine a hypnotist swinging a pendulum in front of the buyer's eyes whilst saying this. :-)

[MikeMusic]

I can speak of the difference the Coherent RTZ grounding box makes. No idea of the others.
My measuring implements - ears and brain

Massive improvement in all areas including lower noise floor, yes lower.

Putting CD after CD on and amazed at what is being revealed.

Currently seated and struggling to leave the music.

Wanna listen ?
North West Surrey is where I is.

[antonio]

Which could be perceived as an increase in sound quality. Trouble is you can't easily test for that as Entreq claim the effect takes time to come on and then fades away over time even after you've removed the gadget. Which is convenient. So you have to try it for yourself and see, knowing the thing is in there, and then try to detect an effect which is going to gradually come over time.

I mean if the effect is very obvious then no problemo. But I gather it is not, it seems to be a very subtle enhancement of soundstage and image placement, going by the testimonials. I'm not sure I would even notice it. especially with the sort of music I usually play.

You have hit the nail on the head. :)

[Macca]

The problem is Mike that going to yours for a listen isn't going to help. I'm sure your system sounds fantastic but how do I know what part *if any* of that is what the box is contributing? And it's no good disconnecting the box to show me as the effect is said to gradually fade away over time rather than just stop on the moment of disconnection.

So if I ask you to disconnect the box and then hear no difference this is because the effect is still lingering, and not because the box does nothing. Likewise if you have it disconnected for a while then reconnect the benefit will not instantly re-appear, I will have to wait while it gradually takes hold.

So any A/B comparison is impossible. In fact I wonder given these caveats how you can be so sure that the box is contributing anything? It seems to me that even those who have tried it cannot be certain that it really does anything.

[hifi_dave]

How can the effect possibly fade away over time when the box is removed ? Does the box charge up the system or something ?

[Firebottle]

So if I ask you to disconnect the box and then hear no difference this is because the effect is still lingering, and not because the box does nothing. Likewise if you have it disconnected for a while then reconnect the benefit will not instantly re-appear, I will have to wait while it gradually takes hold.


I think you are giving too much credence to the BS that is Entreq marketing speak. :mental:

[Macca]

I think you are giving too much credence to the BS that is Entreq marketing speak. :mental:

But you see that following their logic it is impossible to a do a blind A/B test on the thing? So what is the point of going to listen to one, it won't confirm anything?

[MikeMusic]

The problem is Mike that going to yours for a listen isn't going to help. I'm sure your system sounds fantastic but how do I know what part *if any* of that is what the box is contributing? And it's no good disconnecting the box to show me as the effect is said to gradually fade away over time rather than just stop on the moment of disconnection.

So if I ask you to disconnect the box and then hear no difference this is because the effect is still lingering, and not because the box does nothing. Likewise if you have it disconnected for a while then reconnect the benefit will not instantly re-appear, I will have to wait while it gradually takes hold.

So any A/B comparison is impossible. In fact I wonder given these caveats how you can be so sure that the box is contributing anything? It seems to me that even those who have tried it cannot be certain that it really does anything.

The effect was immediate when plugging in the cables the first time.
Sound quality improved after that, causing head scratching and puzzlement.

When I pluck up the courage I will test, disconnect all, listen again and reconnect.
Need to do soon to report back on this thread and I assume offer again.

[MikeMusic]

How can the effect possibly fade away over time when the box is removed ? Does the box charge up the system or something ?

Dunno Dave.
Need to try
Perhaps test last thing at night, disconnect, test again, evaluate, go beddy byes, test in the morning and then reconnect.
Seems almost scientific
:)

[NRG]

Correct me if I’m wrong Mike but I believe Tony claims the RTZ box works in a different way to the others on the market as indicated in your thread on TAS...

There is no rocket science here, just grounding principles taken to a particularly conclusion which produces the desired results

Vertex Aq, Entreq and Nordost all have products which claim do produce a similar condition

However on this occasion measurements will tell you what you need to know with these products.

[Macca]

The effect was immediate when plugging in the cables the first time.
Sound quality improved after that, causing head scratching and puzzlement.

When I pluck up the courage I will test, disconnect all, listen again and reconnect.
Need to do soon to report back on this thread and I assume offer again.

Okay, if the effect is immediate with yours you could also do a rudimentary blind test, maybe get the mrs to plug and unplug it while you listen without looking?

[earsopen]

You may not have noticed that Mike is not using an Entreq box, but another.

However, the effect 'of lowering the noise floor' (as opposed to injecting noise into the system) is likely to be similar. Not all grounding systems use a mineral filling like Entreq but for the purposes of this thread the reasons for grounding are to achieve the same effect.

Mike has made a very generous offer to demo his system but it would not surprise me if the cynics refused just in case they can hear a difference. The truth is that differences (improvements) are so easy to hear that it would mean a complete rethink for somebody who is sceptical.

If this theory about 'injecting more noise' was correct and this noise being 'perceived as an improvement', why would people add more grounding? The extra noise from each these extra boxes would drown out any detail in any system, so why do that? I have asked this as a question because it will be interesting to hear how far the theorists can go.

[Macca]

Mike has made a very generous offer to demo his system but it would not surprise me if the cynics refused just in case they can hear a difference. The truth is that differences (improvements) are so easy to hear that it would mean a complete rethink for somebody who is sceptical.

.

I'd be happy to go to Mike's for a listen but he is several hundred miles away. I'm not cynical but I am sceptical and I don't accept that simple, sighted listening (by me or by anyone else) is enough to confirm that we have some sort of new science going on here (because what ever it is doing it has nothing to do with 'grounding' in electrical terms).

[sq225917]

We're getting confused here, the Entreq grounds nothing, it has no mains earth link. The rtz is a different fish, apples and oranges.

[Stratmangler]

We're getting confused here, the Entreq grounds nothing, it has no mains earth link. The rtz is a different fish, apples and oranges.

Still has no mains earth link tho' ...
The RTZ, that is.

[MikeMusic]

Okay, if the effect is immediate with yours you could also do a rudimentary blind test, maybe get the mrs to plug and unplug it while you listen without looking?

The results were immediate and obvious when each cable was plugged in
The boss refuses to touch the kit :)

[MikeMusic]

Correct me if I’m wrong Mike but I believe Tony claims the RTZ box works in a different way to the others on the market as indicated in your thread on TAS...

There is no rocket science here, just grounding principles taken to a particularly conclusion which produces the desired results

Vertex Aq, Entreq and Nordost all have products which claim do produce a similar condition

However on this occasion measurements will tell you what you need to know with these products.

Struggle with the tech and this grounding seems akin to magic.
Tony spent a few years before he was ready to let a grounding box into the wild having looked at the competition.
The advantage of his is the amount of connections that can be made without spending £1000s on more boxes.
Seems logical to have *one* grounding box too

[MikeMusic]

I'd be happy to go to Mike's for a listen but he is several hundred miles away. I'm not cynical but I am sceptical and I don't accept that simple, sighted listening (by me or by anyone else) is enough to confirm that we have some sort of new science going on here (because what ever it is doing it has nothing to do with 'grounding' in electrical terms).

Stab at being technical :)
All kit has an operating voltage of zero to x.
Kit doesn't seem to get to zero or even moves around so is not operating right.
This seems to have a knock on to sound quality
The grounding works on the box it is connected to by taking the voltage that should be zero to zero.
All connections are to RCA and other sockets via the outer (ground ?)
No earth connections. These are different

[Macca]

The results were immediate and obvious when each cable was plugged in
The boss refuses to touch the kit :)

With devices such as this sighted listening is not good enough. Needs to be tested when you don't know whether it is in the system or not. Don't know of you have ever tried any blind comparisons but it can be much harder to spot the difference when you don't have that prior knowledge.

[MikeMusic]

With devices such as this sighted listening is not good enough. Needs to be tested when you don't know whether it is in the system or not. Don't know of you have ever tried any blind comparisons but it can be much harder to spot the difference when you don't have that prior knowledge.

Due to laziness I prefer to go up. Although I can go both ways :)

Advantages of going up : You hear the additional
Going down : Not always easy to work out what has diminished or been lost.

I'm convinced the sound is better with the RTZ

[MikeMusic]

A big part of what constitutes a grounding box are the cables.

Yes they make a difference.

Visit from Tony, The Doctor yesterday with new, burned in 6D cables to replace the 4D I started with on the RTZ

I chose to upgrade having heard the difference before.

Test
Tony changed one 4D for one 6D.
Big step up heard in the first few bars. Like the volume has been clicked up a couple of notches.
Such detail
The sustain goes on and on.

Swapping more cables sound even better

Whatever grounding box you choose audition the cables

Not surprisingly Tony's (Coherent) take on grounding boxes is different to what the competition have.
My guess is he has it sorted.

[jandl100]

:popcorn::lolsign:

I have to admire Mike's tenacity posting on this thread. :)

[Macca]

I'm convinced the sound is better with the RTZ

I gathered that :lol: -- but for me personally I would need to be able to pick it out consistently in a blind test to be convinced because I have experience of how much our imagination contributes to what we hear. Although I grant you sometimes I wish I didn't have that experience as it does take some of the fun out of the hobby. But you can't unlearn.

[Wakefield Turntables]

:popcorn::lolsign:

I have to admire Mike's tenacity posting on this thread. :)

Hey, if this is what he hears, it's what he hears. As you know every system is different. I'm always sceptical about things like power cables but I have an open mind. I did have an interesting experience this week. I've been modding a few bits in the system again and I decided to swap over a power cable for something a little different I had sitting around in another system. The power cable was swapped around in a PSU to a turntable. I THINK I heard more detail in that I think I heard a slightly clearer presentation of the music I listened to. The cable was a DIY jobbie, probably about £60's worth, it dosen't mean I'd spend the £60 on the parts to make a new cable. I don't think the improvement was worth the cash, now if I noticed a BIG step up then I would pay the cash.

[jandl100]

Hey, if this is what he hears, it's what he hears.

Absolutely.
I was just admiring his tenacity in the face of the doubters.
-- and then throwing the cable stuff in as well. Whoo !! :yay:

Me? I've got a grounding box on the way. :)

[dave2010]

Stab at being technical :)
All kit has an operating voltage of zero to x.
Kit doesn't seem to get to zero or even moves around so is not operating right.
This seems to have a knock on to sound quality
The grounding works on the box it is connected to by taking the voltage that should be zero to zero.
All connections are to RCA and other sockets via the outer (ground ?)
No earth connections. These are differentIs it possible that the GB is simply a link to a RLC network which is somehow draining off charge? Does it make a difference where the box is put - for example on a chair, on the floor, on a sheet of metal, on an piece of inslating material. I'm assuming for moment that it's not non-linear - which it may be, and would complicate things more

[MikeMusic]

:popcorn::lolsign:

I have to admire Mike's tenacity posting on this thread. :)
I have tenace
:)

[MikeMusic]

Is it possible that the GB is simply a link to a RLC network which is somehow draining off charge? Does it make a difference where the box is put - for example on a chair, on the floor, on a sheet of metal, on an piece of inslating material. I'm assuming for moment that it's not non-linear - which it may be, and would complicate things more

Oh gawd I hope not !
:)
Currently sitting on its own Black Ravioli on a Creaktiv rack

[MikeMusic]

I gathered that :lol: -- but for me personally I would need to be able to pick it out consistently in a blind test to be convinced because I have experience of how much our imagination contributes to what we hear. Although I grant you sometimes I wish I didn't have that experience as it does take some of the fun out of the hobby. But you can't unlearn.

I hear the improvements.
Double check
Call in reinforcements - they confirm
Done

[MikeMusic]

Is it possible that the GB is simply a link to a RLC network which is somehow draining off charge? Does it make a difference where the box is put - for example on a chair, on the floor, on a sheet of metal, on an piece of inslating material. I'm assuming for moment that it's not non-linear - which it may be, and would complicate things more

This knowledge is above my paygrade Dave
:)

[dave2010]

Oh gawd I hope not !
:)
Currently sitting on its own Black Ravioli on a Creaktiv rackWell, you have the kit. You could try putting it on different surfaces to see if you think it alters the sound, and report back.

Also you say you hear improvements, but what form do they take? Less noise? Smoother response? Sharper attack? More ambience? etc.

[MikeMusic]

Well, you have the kit. You could try putting it on different surfaces to see if you think it alters the sound, and report back.

Also you say you hear improvements, but what form do they take? Less noise? Smoother response? Sharper attack? More ambience? etc.

My guess is I already have the optimum with BR and Creaktiv
Added granite coasters on top, knowing they wouldn't make a difference - they did. That was a surprise.

The differences were in just about everything.
More space in the music, greater separation, more detail, more, clearer bass, clearer diction in speech and singing, more presence, reality.

Rarely have I ever heard such improvements.
Not subtle

[MikeMusic]

Test

Removed just 3 cables to the RTZ. 2 from the CD/Pre, 1 from the Power Amp.
Played. Seemed constrained to me, limited.

Plugged the 3 cables back in
Complete sound. Wider, more detail.

Referred to the boss with her one golden ear.
"The second one was definitely better"

Taking all the cables out, and putting them back in again will take quite a bit longer. Can do this for the enquiring visitor

[Pharos]

You are right Mike, you can't unlearn anything; our brain is a survival tool.

[Joe]

You are right Mike, you can't unlearn anything; our brain is a survival tool.

I managed to unlearn most of what I was taught at school.

[struth]

I've unlearned most things I found in needed, to make room for that, that is.
There is only so much free space in this ram

[walpurgis]

I managed to unlearn most of what I was taught at school.

The only thing I've unlearned is how to write properly. My handwriting is now appalling (and to think I used to do calligraphy :rolleyes:).

[Joe]

The only thing I've unlearned is how to write properly. My handwriting is now appalling (and to think I used to do calligraphy :rolleyes:).

Very little remains with me from most subjects, apart from English and history.

Geography: I just about remember how ox-bow lakes are formed

Chemistry: I remember the formula for sulphuric acid

Physics: A complete blank

Latin: Caesar ederat, Brutus ad sum tu. Caesar sic in omnibus, Brutus sic inat.

Maths: Something about pies being squared

French: Honi soit qui mal y pense

[walpurgis]

Very little remains with me from most subjects, apart from English and history.

Geography: I just about remember how ox-bow lakes are formed

Chemistry: I remember the formula for sulphuric acid

Physics: A complete blank

Latin: Caesar ederat, Brutus ad sum tu. Caesar sic in omnibus, Brutus sic inat.

Maths: Something about pies being squared

French: Honi soit qui mal y pense

Ah. Oxbow lakes are redundant river meanders.

I still know a bit of useful chemistry.

Physics? I'm not too bad on.

Latin? Not a hope.

My maths is OK.

French? Well I'm half French!

[eisenach]

Are these grounding boxes you've been talking about different from Russ Andrews' stuff?

https://www.russandrews.com/the-rf-router-mk-2/

It can connect to an outdoor earth spike (legal) and he sells you nice woven Kimbercable grouding wires which of course keep out the RFI. An easy way to give him several hundred quid.

[sq225917]

Yes, we're talking about a number of different bits
ENTREQ- wooden cigar boxes full of pointless shit
Coherent GTZ- a grounding box that actually does ground.
Russ Andrews, - a grounding box that does ground

[earsopen]

No!

The Russ Andrews item, once your hifi casework is connected to it, then needs to be connected to ground which would normally be a garden spike. It is not a ground itself.

Most others are 'floating' grounds which can be connected to casework, but more likely to the negative side of a terminal such as an RCA or other terminal.

[Gaz]

When reading about "add on" things that improve SQ so dramatically I always wonder why even high end equipment manufacturers make their kit so badly that such things are needed?

If aftermarket power cables make such a difference why weren't the standard ones made to the same quality?

If cables need grounding, or whatever, why don't the equipment or cable manufacturers tell you this?

If cabinets pick up resonance why aren't they made more rigid and with decent feet on them

People pay tens of thousands of amps, DACs, CDPs etc yet they're supplied with substandard power leads, aren't earthed properly have rattly cabinets and wobbly feet, meaning that the poor sucker that bought them has to spend more money to get them sounding their best.

Imagine spending £400k on a Rolls Phantom then having to spend another £50k on new shocks, springs, tyres and extra sound proofing to make it ride properly and more refined inside?

It's a disgrace

[walpurgis]

When reading about "add on" things that improve SQ so dramatically I always wonder why even high end equipment manufacturers make their kit so badly that such things are needed?

That reminds me of my argument about power supply upgrades or extra add-on power supplies. If they are needed, surely the equipment was inadequately specced in the first place?

[Gaz]

That reminds me of my argument about power supply upgrades or extra add-on power supplies. If they are needed, surely the equipment was inadequately specced in the first place?

Exactly, I'd be fuming if I bought a high end amp and found the power lead wasn't top spec.

[Macca]

You can buy aftermarket improvements to loads of cars, possibly not the RR Phantom, but some pretty expensive cars can be modded to improve various aspects of performance. Although I grant you that industry also has a fair number of 'upgrades' that do nothing (that can be defined in measurement).

People like to tweak. So there's a market for it.

[sq225917]

Everything is built to a price, even cars have option kits.

[Gaz]

Everything is built to a price, even cars have option kits.

True, but they're fitted to the car before it's delivered and by the manufacturer or dealer not bought and fitted after delivery by the owner.

[Gaz]

You can buy aftermarket improvements to loads of cars, possibly not the RR Phantom, but some pretty expensive cars can be modded to improve various aspects of performance. Although I grant you that industry also has a fair number of 'upgrades' that do nothing (that can be defined in measurement).

People like to tweak. So there's a market for it.

Yes, most cars can be modified but usually to suit the owners taste. For example you can improve handling by fitting stiffer suspension but this compromises ride quality or get a remap for more performance at the cost of fuel consumption.
In my opinion changing the power cable, and adding anti resonance feet/Damping to a high end piece of audio gear is akin to the Rolls Royce I mentioned before being delivered with rattling body panels, uncomfortable suspension and restrictive fuel lines, all of which would be totally unacceptable to expect the owner to replace himself

[Macca]

In my opinion changing the power cable, and adding anti resonance feet/Damping to a high end piece of audio gear is akin to the Rolls Royce I mentioned before being delivered with rattling body panels, uncomfortable suspension and restrictive fuel lines, all of which would be totally unacceptable to expect the owner to replace himself

A better analogy would be having the interior of the Rolls valeted. It isn't going to improve performance in the slightest but you are still going to feel better about it whilst driving it around.

[Gaz]

A better analogy would be having the interior of the Rolls valeted. It isn't going to improve performance in the slightest but you are still going to feel better about it whilst driving it around.

Not really, valeting isn't upgrading a standard part which, on a high end car, shouldn't need upgrading if it was made properly in the first place.

[blackmetalboon]

There is a rather amusing review on the Stereophile website for the Nordost QKore grounding box. My personal highlight of the review is the advice from the manufacturer about keeping it off the floor and recommending using their “resonant control devices” under it.:lol:

If it’s that susceptible to vibrations why didn’t they take this to consideration when designed it.:doh:

Apparently even mixing the materials these feet/supports come in alters the sound!:lol:

I honestly cannot see how any of these products could lead to improvements. Even if they did I’m sure it’s nothing that couldn’t be solved alternatively using basic grounding techniques at a fraction of the cost.

[mayebaza]

There is a rather amusing review on the Stereophile website for the Nordost QKore grounding box. My personal highlight of the review is the advice from the manufacturer about keeping it off the floor and recommending using their “resonant control devices” under it.:lol:

If it’s that susceptible to vibrations why didn’t they take this to consideration when designed it.:doh:

Apparently even mixing the materials these feet/supports come in alters the sound!:lol:

I honestly cannot see how any of these products could lead to improvements. Even if they did I’m sure it’s nothing that couldn’t be solved alternatively using basic grounding techniques at a fraction of the cost.

I have been listening to the Nordost boxes for more than a decade at hifi shows on some astoundingly good systems. It's funny, non of the exhibitors mentioned anything about the boxes. (I thought they were some sort of external cable filters). I shall pay more attention to these boxes and ask questions. My gut feeling is they do work, however feelings are not much to go on.