Brand new records

[Gaz]

For those who didn't see my previous threads I've recently bought a used Project Debut TT and was initially quite unimpressed
I got a couple of brand new albums for Christmas (Dark Side of the Moon and U2 Greatest Hits, both remastered 180gsm) and have been blown away at how much better they sound to my old collection, I know it's a cliché but the difference is night and day.
I didn't realise just how badly my old records have been looked after (oops)
I know nothing can be done about scratches but are the cheaper cleaning machined (knosti) going to get my old vinyl close to a brand new record or am I expecting too much?

[struth]

For those who didn't see my previous threads I've recently bought a used Project Debut TT and was initially quite unimpressed
I got a couple of brand new albums for Christmas (Dark Side of the Moon and U2 Greatest Hits, both remastered 180gsm) and have been blown away at how much better they sound to my old collection, I know it's a cliché but the difference is night and day.
I didn't realise just how badly my old records have been looked after (oops)
I know nothing can be done about scratches but are the cheaper cleaning machined (knosti) going to get my old vinyl close to a brand new record or am I expecting too much?

wont do much with ticks or jumps but will reduce noise etc if records are not ruined by a duff arm/stylus. try getting someone close by to clean a couple and see what the results are.

[Stryder5]

For those who didn't see my previous threads I've recently bought a used Project Debut TT and was initially quite unimpressed
I got a couple of brand new albums for Christmas (Dark Side of the Moon and U2 Greatest Hits, both remastered 180gsm) and have been blown away at how much better they sound to my old collection, I know it's a cliché but the difference is night and day.
I didn't realise just how badly my old records have been looked after (oops)
I know nothing can be done about scratches but are the cheaper cleaning machined (knosti) going to get my old vinyl close to a brand new record or am I expecting too much?

I did say in one of your earlier posts that you would need a record cleaner:lolsign:

Yes the Knosti will have a very beneficial effect on your old records, I find that some of my old (very old) records that were totally abandoned in the loft sound as good as new vinyl, after cleaning.

In fact some new pressings are crap by comparison.

Gary

[AJSki2fly]

I know nothing can be done about scratches but are the cheaper cleaning machined (knosti) going to get my old vinyl close to a brand new record or am I expecting too much?

Have look at this thread that I started on cleaning records and what I am trying to establish, it might help you initially. I started with a Knosti and it does a reasonable job, but you need to definitely think about making a vacuum set up to suck the liquid off with the crap, but doing something is better than nothing, especially if you carefully rinse with distilled water and then allow to dry.

Good luck.

[Mike Reed]

It may be that your old records are worn; this can reduce dynamics and general playback quality. It can be that your arm/cart. like the extra height of the 180 g (i.e. they're not ideally set for thinner records with regard to VTA). I've yet to buy a remastered 180g new record which satisfies, so I've stopped buying them.

[Gaz]

I did say in one of your earlier posts that you would need a record cleaner:lolsign:

Yes the Knosti will have a very beneficial effect on your old records, I find that some of my old (very old) records that were totally abandoned in the loft sound as good as new vinyl, after cleaning.

In fact some new pressings are crap by comparison.

Gary

I had remembered your advice, I just wondered how much improvement I could expect.

I bought a very clean looking 2nd hand album (Fleetwood Mac, Rumours) and was quite disappointed by that althought it was suggested that it wasn't a particularly good recording to start with.

[Gaz]

Have look at this thread that I started on cleaning records and what I am trying to establish, it might help you initially. I started with a Knosti and it does a reasonable job, but you need to definitely think about making a vacuum set up to suck the liquid off with the crap, but doing something is better than nothing, especially if you carefully rinse with distilled water and then allow to dry.

Good luck.

I did read it, you have far more patience and dedication than me, and if I'm honest I'm still undecided how many of my old records I'll actually ever listen to again, the 12"Jellybean Dance Remix of Like a Virgin is low on the list as is An Officer an a Gentleman soundtrack album lol

[AJSki2fly]

I did read it, you have far more patience and dedication than me, and if I'm honest I'm still undecided how many of my old records I'll actually ever listen to again, the 12"Jellybean Dance Remix of Like a Virgin is low on the list as is An Officer an a Gentleman soundtrack album lol[/QUOTE]

Ah but you might find yourself coming across the odd second hand record now and be tempted as it is a bargain or one that you always wanted. Then when you get home you find it needs a good clean, that's when you might find the dark abyss of record cleaning swallows you up.:lol:

Something else to bear in mind Gary is that styli are not all the same and have different shapes, some are more prone to picking up noise from the grooves than others. I will will take the risk of making a broad statement here in that generally the better the stylus the more likely it is to be affected, IMO the is because it is likely to be shaped so that it gets deeper into the grooves. The other thing that has a big impact in quieting replay is a heavy tracking cartridge, most nowadays I believe somewhere around 1.5 to 5 grams, but cartridges tracking around 20grams are not unknown but require a heavier arm. The result of a cartridge tracking heavier is is looses the pops and crackles, I am not certain why but suspect the stylus has more resistance to the crap it comes across in the groove and so is less affected by it, however I think that the sound reproduced is affected as well, maybe loosing some top end clarity.

So depending what your cartridge is and how your records have been cared for you might find a light clean is all that is needed to get them acceptable, I have certainly found that with some records I have purchased, and others I thought looked great have turned out to be terrible, so it is not always obvious from just looking at the record in my experience.

Give it a go and judge for yourself. Be interesting to know how you get on.

[steve-z]

If old records are noisy or appear to have lost their edge they have probably in the past been used with a heavy tracking cartridge with a spherical stylus of a comparatively large radius which will have worn the upper portion of the record groove walls. Using a modern cartridge with a finer profile elliptical stylus which will go deeper into the groove, which provided its clear of dirt and debris (knosti cleaned [emoji846]) will probably have a lot of detail and decent sound quality still there to be enjoyed.


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[Barry]

If old records are noisy or appear to have lost their edge they have probably in the past been used with a heavy tracking cartridge with a spherical stylus of a comparatively large radius which will have worn the upper portion of the record groove walls. Using a modern cartridge with a finer profile elliptical stylus which will go deeper into the groove, which provided its clear of dirt and debris (knosti cleaned [emoji846]) will probably have a lot of detail and decent sound quality still there to be enjoyed.

Agreed. I dread to think of the damage caused by a cartridge tracking at 20g. It has been shown that the vinyl can be stressed beyond its elastic limit by cartridges tracking at more than 1g. But that is theoretical, and since there are enough technical compromises one has to accept with vinyl replay, one more won't make much difference.

[Pigmy Pony]

It may be that your old records are worn; this can reduce dynamics and general playback quality. It can be that your arm/cart. like the extra height of the 180 g (i.e. they're not ideally set for thinner records with regard to VTA). I've yet to buy a remastered 180g new record which satisfies, so I've stopped buying them.

Wow, that is something I'd never considered! So it's possible that the difference in thickness between my 180g records and the rest (most) of my records which aren't, can affect the sound? My cartridge is Ortofon 2M Black which I heard is a bit critical of VTA.

[Pigmy Pony]

This may be the reason my Fidelity HF43 record player with six disc autochanger sounded a bit shit. Although the discs sliding against each other may have been a contributing factor.

[Barry]

This may be the reason my Fidelity HF43 record player with six disc autochanger sounded a bit shit. Although the discs sliding against each other may have been a contributing factor.

That is why 45rpm 'singles' have a raised, serrated ring near the centre hole to stop that from happening. You weren't playing 33rpm LPs on your autochanger were you?! :D :doh:

[Pigmy Pony]

No, I didn't even own any LP's for the first few months anyway. I did not know about that feature of 45's either. They still used to slide quite often though. The autochanger was crap anyway, often dropping two or three at a time. When I started buying LP's I hardly ever bothered with singles any more.

Going back to the VTA thing though, surely the difference between 180g and 'standard records wouldn't be an issue would it? The idea of changing VTA with each record seems too silly for words. Or am I misunderstanding what VTA is?

Apologies for the stupid questions, but I'm at home on a Saturday night and feeling bored.

[dave2010]

If old records are noisy or appear to have lost their edge they have probably in the past been used with a heavy tracking cartridge with a spherical stylus of a comparatively large radius which will have worn the upper portion of the record groove walls. Using a modern cartridge with a finer profile elliptical stylus which will go deeper into the groove, which provided it's clear of dirt and debris (knosti cleaned [emoji846]) will probably have a lot of detail and decent sound quality still there to be enjoyed.

I read this and at first thought this was incorrect - going deeper into a groove. It's years since I thought about or worried about stylus shapes, so I needed a refresher course. I found this article - https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information - which seems better than most, which explains some of the features of different shapes of stylus. The development of the CD-4 quad system requiring cartridges tracking at over 40 kHz led to the Shibata stylus, and then to other carefully honed stylus shapes. Even though the CD-4 system did not survive in the consumer market, the technical developments led to improvements in stylus design. The generally beneficial effects of elliptical or other shaped styli would appear to give improvements at the innner grooves of an LP and at high frequencies.

Another article - is this one - https://www.ortofon.com/media/14912/everything_you_need_to_know_about_styli_types.pdf - though it doesn't seem very rigorous. There are few accessible articles which deal with stylus shapes from a mathematical point of view - perhaps most relying on the seemingly "obvious" fact that elliptical styli are closer in shape to the cutting stylus used to make the master discs - and hence "must" give better results.

[Macca]

Wow, that is something I'd never considered! So it's possible that the difference in thickness between my 180g records and the rest (most) of my records which aren't, can affect the sound? My cartridge is Ortofon 2M Black which I heard is a bit critical of VTA.

In theory yes but in practice any audible effect is likely to be swamped by a host other factors.

[AJSki2fly]

In theory yes but in practice any audible effect is likely to be swamped by a host other factors.

Sorry Martin, have to disagree there, I made a change to my turntable set up some month ago and noticed that the bass was somewhat lacking and at time the top end sound a bit shrill/edgy. I was wondering if the styli was dirty or damaged and cleaned it but that made little difference. Then I put on a 180gm records and things improved, not perfect my the bass was improved and top end edgyness less prevalent. I had a light bulb moment and check the horizontal angle of the arm with a standard record and a 180gm and it was out. So after half an hour of fiddling with VTA I set it up primarily for standard record. Put one the records on I had noticed th problem with initially and presto all was good. So IMO you can hear the difference, obviously this is affected by the quality and accuracy of the equipment in use.

[Macca]

Sorry Martin, have to disagree there, I made a change to my turntable set up some month ago and noticed that the bass was somewhat lacking and at time the top end sound a bit shrill/edgy. I was wondering if the styli was dirty or damaged and cleaned it but that made little difference. Then I put on a 180gm records and things improved, not perfect my the bass was improved and top end edgyness less prevalent. I had a light bulb moment and check the horizontal angle of the arm with a standard record and a 180gm and it was out. So after half an hour of fiddling with VTA I set it up primarily for standard record. Put one the records on I had noticed th problem with initially and presto all was good. So IMO you can hear the difference, obviously this is affected by the quality and accuracy of the equipment in use.

I agree that's why I said 'is likely'. Obviously the more elements you optimise the more the lesser aspects will show up. Its what makes getting accurate vinyl replay such a nightmare (or really good fun, depending on your point of view ;) ).

[karma67]

it also doesn't help that the 2m black is one of the most fussy cartridges to set up right for vta

[struth]

180gm records won't or shouldn't give any issues to I've never had any

[Pigmy Pony]

I'm sure lots of people like the 'tinkering' aspect of vinyl replay, but I'm not one of them. My favourite two sayings are 'if it ain't broke...' and 'leave it alone Steve, you'll only make it worse'.

I bet the thicker heavier slab that is your 180g record will have more of an effect on sound quality anyway.

[AJSki2fly]

I'm sure lots of people like the 'tinkering' aspect of vinyl replay, but I'm not one of them. My favourite two sayings are 'if it ain't broke...' and 'leave it alone Steve, you'll only make it worse'.

I bet the thicker heavier slab that is your 180g record will have more of an effect on sound quality anyway.

Yep, it should help with the bottom end definition if the rest of the equipment is up to handling it, anything below 60hz becomes tricky to be accurate and controlled as I understand it. My understanding is that all styli have a sweet spot of their own which is dependant on the type of stylus, the angle of the cantilever and ultimately the angle of the stylus in the groove. So by using a thicker record or for that matter introducing a ticker mat or adding one will raise the cartridge and thus change the angle of attack that the stylus meets the record. So if originally the stylus was set up say for an average thickness of record as soon as you increase or decrease the record height in relation to the platter then it will move the stylus from its sweet spot, it will either become hard as I experienced, increasing sibilance, and loosing bottom end or the opposite sounding dull and too much bass. When I set mine up the first time I was quite surprised what a difference a small amount of VTA change made to the sound, certainly with my cartridge anyway. I believe some makes are more compliant than others, I believe some Ortofon cartridges can be tricky to get right. Anyway as you say if your happy with how it sounds great, but if you notice a big change when putting thicker or thinner records on then it might be worth checking the VTA for your cartridge.

[Mike Reed]

it also doesn't help that the 2m black is one of the most fussy cartridges to set up right for vta

I think it depends to some extent on the stylus profile and its effect on SRA (stylus rake angle), which, of course, is affected by VTA. If the 2M is as described above, it certainly wouldn't help !

Generally, the higher the arm at the back, the leaner/more shrill/ more sibilant (etc) the sound becomes; treble orientated with negative effect on bass. The converse is also true, with a duller, bassy presentation and no 'sparkle'. Normal start is arm horizontal, and fine tune VTA to suit, but horizontal usually works for most arms/cart's (up to a point).

[paulf-2007]

As 180grm vinyl is a newish thing and so modern pressings some has its own problems and I've not heard any that is better than original pressings. 12" 45rpm I have is better and half speed mastered better still, dependant on master tape quality.