Tangential tone arms worth considering?

[Exophile]

I am thinking about upgrading my TT. I currently have a Thorens 203 which is a POS.

One option is the Linn route. Sort of traditional-classy looking deck, that seems to deliver, but at a hefty price tag. Lots of other options from other manufacturers.

The alternative is a deck with tangential tone arm. Looking at Clearaudio TT5 possibly on a Performance DC table. The perfect alignment makes sense to me, and the no-air compressor is a sensible approach with the TT5. That puts a system (without cartridge and phono stage) in the ~$5-6K range, which is doable, still better than a top end Linn at $20K. There is not a whole lot of competition in tangential tone arms.

Question: Is a tangential tone arm a sensible approach in that price range, or would it be better to look at a "normal" tone arm from other manufacturers, with much wider choices?

[Frazeur1]

Daniel, I own a Holbo TT with an air bearing arm that is linear tracking. It is a great turntable and I enjoy it very much. I think there is a lot to like about an arm like this, but I certainly would be the last to say that it is the end-all, be-all of all things analog. In other words, there are just as many arguments against such arms, as are plusses. Many things in this hobby can be swings and roundabouts.

I say buy a table/arm/cartridge/phono stage that you like the sound of and are capable of setting it up properly and keeping it running. Sit back, relax and enjoy your music, don't let the technology and all that stuff take you down a path that just may not matter. IMO of course!

PS-I should also say that my comment may sound like I do not care much for the Holbo, or damning with feint praise, but I happen to love the table very much. It sounds fantastic, reasonably easy to setup. I am glad I bought it, no regrets there at all! But I have also heard many tables that I could also live with, so.....

[icehockeyboy]

Does anyone remember the American ‘Rabco’ company?

They made both an integrated TT with a tangential arm, and also a servo driven stand alone arm, which I owned, strapped to a Thorens TD 125, with The then ubiquitous Shure V15/3.

Whether or not it succeeded in offering zero tracking error or not, it offered an alternative to a SME 3009. ( my arm prior to the Rabco)


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[walpurgis]

I remember Rabco arms. Wasn't it a version of these that was used on the Harman Kardon turntables of the time?

[Frazeur1]

I think it was Geoff. It has been a long time since I have messed with one. Thought they were pretty good though.

[Exophile]

Not sure I would want to mess with a vintage linear tracking arm. Given that an entry level tangential like the Clearaudio TT5 costs about $2700, does it offer advantages over a conventional tone arm in that price range? Or is a "cheap" tangential worse than a similarly priced conventional one?

[Frazeur1]

I think it is somewhat difficult to make any kind of comparison generally. Hard to find the same basic deck that is set up to take either type of arm and do a direct comparison. As I said in my post above, there will be those that get behind one design or the other at times, and the various pluses and minus for each design. In the end, are the differences audible or different enough for one to make a preference over the other? Maybe. Hopefully the one who designs whichever arm/table you are looking and listening for, has done his job and done it well.

It sounds to me, and I may be wrong of course, that you may have a good fascination with this type of arm possibly, and you just want one! Nothing wrong with that. Go for it! As far as the money end, and which one is what, look at your overall budget for each setup and go from there. There is just as much expensive junk out there as there are good reasonably priced arms and tables. With that kind of money though, I would certainly try to listen to one of the Clearaudios or whatever ones you fancy, see if you can hear differences in them and which one might sway you either way.

I know that doesn’t really answer your question, probably because the answer is as long as a piece of string, and how long is that? Rely on your ears, they will guide you! And it is only you and your own ears that have to be pleased!

[KWJ]

I have owned the Clearaudio TT2 and TT3 they both have a common problem the metal bearings that carrie the arm in the glass tubes they make an audible noise between tracks at higher volumes you can lessen the noise by putting blue tac all over the glass tube but personally I couldn't deal with blue tac all over a 3k and 10k arm . If I was going to do linear arm again it would be a air bearing arm.

[Exophile]

Timothy: thanks for the words of wisdom. The tangential/linear tone arms are interesting because the geometry makes obvious sense. I contrast that with the Linn tone arm with spring holding the needle firmer in groove, where I have a harder time given rather small forces, large distances and mass inertia.

I'm in a weird place where I know that entry level (the 82 Thorens arm on the TD203) does not seem to satisfy me, but don't know what make an actual difference, and what is snake oil. Then there is also the multifactorial space of table, arm, cartridge, phono stage, ear. Manufacturer's just tout their product, reviews are selective and generally rather positive, dealers are biased towards gear they carry, and neutral comparative write-ups are difficult to come by. I read Harley's book on high end audio, but that stop short on the finer points of arm design. Not sure there is something more specific to TTs.

Well understood that proof is at the ear. But have to narrow down what I even want to explore.


I have owned the Clearaudio TT2 and TT3 they both have a common problem the metal bearings that carrie the arm in the glass tubes they make an audible noise between tracks at higher volumes you can lessen the noise by putting blue tac all over the glass tube but personally I couldn't deal with blue tac all over a 3k and 10k arm . If I was going to do linear arm again it would be a air bearing arm.

Thanks for this, Kevin. Quite interesting. I thought that the lack an air compressor with associated noise was a solid feature of the Clearaudio arms. Maybe have to re-think that.

[Exophile]

On thinking about it a bit more, I think I have some ideas of what I am looking for:
- more traditional look (no egg shaped acrylic or glass pieces out of star treck)
- Table with suspension.
- Fully manual operation.
- 33/45 speed change by pressing button (not manually re-positioning belt)
- MM & MC capable.
- Arm precision machined/operated: think Zeiss microscopes, no plastic.
- Am willing to fiddle for set-up. In my day job I run an electron microscopy facility.
- Sound neutral if not treble biased, positively not accentuating bass. Think Etymotics/Grado headphones.
- Price range of table, arm, cartridge in the $5-10 range (won't complain about <$5k).
- Strongly biased towards new, not second hand. Want to be sure that it was not abused previously.

Can you help me narrowing down searches, pointing me in the right direction? Thanks!

[Frazeur1]

A couple of things, yes, some compressors/air supplies for some of the air bearing tables can be quite loud. The one used for my Holbo is absolutely silent, but it is more of a lower pressure aquarium style pump, not some hulking compressor that some makes utilize. Various manufactures all use different things, and obviously as you said, tout one design over the others.

On an air bearing table, and possibly on most linear tables, I would maybe not recommend a fully suspended table. It in and of itself can be trouble with these designs-potentially. I cannot imagine setting mine up on a fully suspended table, I would probably bin the thing, or quit all together.

What brought me to the Holbo was a more overall simplistic design in general, it doesn't look like an oil rig either. Bostjan Holc of Holbo has designed a fairly simple, in relative terms, table that just does its thing without too much fuss. And he was great to deal with, answered any of my questions and delivery was smooth. Obviously not having an air bearing table before this one, I had a bit of a learning curve, and still am tweaking things in here and there. Overall though, it has been a lot of fun and the thing just works and plays great music. So do a lot of other tables though!

Other tables I had considered were the Well Tempered tables, Pear Audio, Nottingham, were main ones. I had owned an LP12 and also early Well Tempered Amadeus several years back. Loved the WT more than the Linn in general, but my curiosity with linear arms eventually got the best of me. And, I had been away from analog for some time. FWIW.

I am sure with time and effort, you will find a table that will suit you, take your time and have fun with it!

[sbank]

Have you considered Trans-Fi Terminator arm? They are very good sounding one setup right and pretty affordable considering. Have a built-in micrometer for VTA adjustment which is nice and you can easily switch cartridges with optional extra arm wands. A bit fiddly to get it right, for my tastes, but any linear arm would fall in that category. If interested in talking with an owner, PM me and I can give you email of a well-versed friend who has one mounted on a highly modded Techie with Mike New copper platter and the works...Cheers,
Spencer

[dowser]

I have a Harmon Kardon ST8 linear tracker that uses the Rabco arm that I fully refurbished 4 or 5 years ago, and very good it is too. I’m actually about to list it for sale, but as I’m in Switzerland I doubt it would make sense shipping to U.K. :)

Richard

[Exophile]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Given your feedback on the Holbo, that makes it more of a contender.
Thanks for the transfi terminator arm pointer. Had not seen that at all! have to spend a bit more quality time on looking at this.
Re shipping harmon Cardan, it would be to California. But I could have hand-carried it from Switzerland yesterday. Just flew back from Basel-Zürich. Y bi uurspryngligg e Basler Bebbi :-) That's why my replies are a bit late.

[alphaGT]

There is a LOT of shopping that can be had within your budget! A tonearm I’ve had my eye on is the Reed. A real first class arm. But, completing your setup within budget may be pushing it, depending on your associated gear. I really think you should reconsider used equipment. When you get to gear they cost this much, people tend to take care of them, and many receive very little use. With enough quality photos, or hopefully a personal visit, you can tell if it were cared for or not. You can better than double your buying power by buying used. Not one single piece of my stereo is new, even the cables are used, except for power cables I made up myself. And I do not feel the least bit cheated by it, in fact quite the opposite, I can’t believe how much I got for my money! I’m not saying you shouldn’t shop new, but perhaps you shouldn’t dismiss used right off hand? Just food for thought.

Russell

[Exophile]

Hi Russel, I hear you. If there is something from a dealer with some sort of warranty, that may be an option. As I am still pretty new to high end, and certainly clueless about better turntables, I don't think I could evaluate whether a table is working properly or not. I may have to go to some trade-show to get a better overview of the field. I am in no rush. At that price point, I won't do an impulse buy.

[alphaGT]

Hi Russel, I hear you. If there is something from a dealer with some sort of warranty, that may be an option. As I am still pretty new to high end, and certainly clueless about better turntables, I don't think I could evaluate whether a table is working properly or not. I may have to go to some trade-show to get a better overview of the field. I am in no rush. At that price point, I won't do an impulse buy.

Wise thinking!

Russ