Tube dac

[slodigia]

Hello Folks, I am on the verge of buying a new(used) DAC. I have noticed the Audio Note DAC 3, for about 900€ that have a tube output stage. Is there anyone that can share their thoughts?
Is it worth to get a 10+ years old machine ? Or there is a technology leap in the last 10 years that would make a modern DAC better sounding? I was considering PS audio perfect wave or mytec Brooklyn that process MQA.
Is MQA worth in your view ?

Best,



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[montesquieu]

The DAC3 is a pretty ancient design though still upgrade-able I think, at substantial cost.

Be aware that it's not anything like the same design as the current DAC3.1x which uses some pretty high-spec output transformers, and is non-oversampling, which the old DAC3 wasn't.

Also the 3.1x (as with all the Audio Note NOS DACs) uses the superb R2R AD1865 chip which leaves the much-praised TDA1541 for dead, the original DAC3 uses PCM63P which while a decent chip can't be run NOS. So it's thrown away if you want to upgrade.

In short while I'm sure it sounds decent, it won't match the current DAC 2.1x or upwards and will fall well short of the DAC 3.1x as currently specced.

I think it's well over 10 years old btw more like 15+. Price at 900 Euros is probably a bit optimistic unless they find a buyer who thinks they are buying something that this isn't.

As for MQA I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, it's yet another scam from the big content owners to control the market, it has digital rights management built in ready to be applied (no surprise in that as they must be well panicked about the amount of stuff already out there withour DRM) and it also limits any signal processing that you might want to apply to the signal (for example using room management software, something I don't care about particularly being almost all analogue but surely useful if you are focused on the digital domain).

Some MQA files already seem to been have pre-'improved' no doubt using cheap DSP enhancement techinques. From what I can see it has precisely zero end-user benefits apart from this dubious 'enhancement'. Tell them to naff off.

[struth]

Dacs come in every flavour and everyone has their favourite taste I guess. I would say you don't have to spend as much now as you did to get a quality sound.

[montesquieu]

Dacs come in every flavour and everyone has their favourite taste I guess. I would say you don't have to spend as much now as you did to get a quality sound.

My point was mainly to distinguish the late 90s/early 00s DAC3 in the context of the wider set of more recent Audio Note gear out there. Specifically to distinguish it from the DAC3.1x which is a totally different beast.

[Ninanina]

Hi Stefano
I can't help you with the current AN Dac's but I owned the 'old' Audio Note Dac One 1X Signature and it was absolutely fantastic

I only sold the AN Dac as I now have a Naim setup and changed to the Naim Dac otherwise I would have kept the AN Dac One 1x Signature forever

It really is very good indeed and I don't think you can buy better for the money...

[montesquieu]

Hi Stefano
I can't help you with the current AN Dac's but I owned the 'old' Audio Note Dac One 1X Signature and it was absolutely fantastic

I only sold the AN Dac as I now have a Naim setup and changed to the Naim Dac otherwise I would have kept the AN Dac One 1x Signature forever

It really is very good indeed and I don't think you can buy better for the money...

The DAC1.1x uses a later non-oversampling chipset (I'm not 100% which one). Unlike the DAC3. Though like the DAC3 it doesn't have output transformers.

EDIT: the 1.1x uses the AD1865.

[slodigia]

The DAC3 is a pretty ancient design though still upgrade-able I think, at substantial cost.

Be aware that it's not anything like the same design as the current DAC3.1x which uses some pretty high-spec output transformers, and is non-oversampling, which the old DAC3 wasn't.

Also the 3.1x (as with all the Audio Note NOS DACs) uses the superb R2R AD1865 chip which leaves the much-praised TDA1541 for dead, the original DAC3 uses PCM63P which while a decent chip can't be run NOS. So it's thrown away if you want to upgrade.

In short while I'm sure it sounds decent, it won't match the current DAC 2.1x or upwards and will fall well short of the DAC 3.1x as currently specced.

I think it's well over 10 years old btw more like 15+. Price at 900 Euros is probably a bit optimistic unless they find a buyer who thinks they are buying something that this isn't.

As for MQA I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, it's yet another scam from the big content owners to control the market, it has digital rights management built in ready to be applied (no surprise in that as they must be well panicked about the amount of stuff already out there withour DRM) and it also limits any signal processing that you might want to apply to the signal (for example using room management software, something I don't care about particularly being almost all analogue but surely useful if you are focused on the digital domain).

Some MQA files already seem to been have pre-'improved' no doubt using cheap DSP enhancement techinques. From what I can see it has precisely zero end-user benefits apart from this dubious 'enhancement'. Tell them to naff off.Thanks Montesquieu, indeed a do use DSP room correction. The whole need of buying a DAC comes from the fact that I want to stop using the dsp on board DAC and use a better one.


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[Firebottle]

Hi Stefano, I upgraded to a Bel Canto DAC3 (very confusing with all these DAC3's about) and couldn't be happier.

Mr. C on here (Coherent systems) has second hand Bel Canto DACs regularly.

[slodigia]

Hi Stefano, I upgraded to a Bel Canto DAC3 (very confusing with all these DAC3's about) and couldn't be happier.

Mr. C on here (Coherent systems) has second hand Bel Canto DACs regularly.This is definitely a possibility although I was looking to a R2R based chip and not sigma-delta. As far as I can tell the Belcanto use oversampling , but I may be wrong.
Of course the best thing would be try all of them side by side but unfortunately is not possible.


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[User211]

If you want to try a tube DAC and see if you really like the concept with the whole tube rolling thing search for Xiang Sheng 01A on this forum.

Solid state DACs are just so boring by comparison, I think, unless they come with some way of modifying the sound for fun and alleviation of "sameness" all the time. So I'd recommend you give one a try. Then, if you like, you could buy a more expensive one.

That said, there's all sorts of computer based software you can use to mess with a DAC's sound anyway. None of them will really change the sound in the same way swapping valves does, however.

[Spectral Morn]

I think the PS Audio.

[slodigia]

I think the PS Audio.PS audio is NOS or oversampling?


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[montesquieu]

If you want to try a tube DAC and see if you really like the concept with the whole tube rolling thing search for Xiang Sheng 01A on this forum.

Solid state DACs are just so boring by comparison, I think, unless they come with some way of modifying the sound for fun and alleviation of "sameness" all the time. So I'd recommend you give one a try. Then, if you like, you could buy a more expensive one.

That said, there's all sorts of computer based software you can use to mess with a DAC's sound anyway. None of them will really change the sound in the same way swapping valves does, however.

It seems to me Stefano from his comments here (despite the thread title) may be more focused on R2R/non-oversampling than on tubes per se. The Xiang Sheng doesn't fit in this category.

There is a challenge here though in making no-os, vintage chip based non-OS DACs work with room correction, which for non digital input are generally centred around 24 bit/high resolution analog to digital conversion modules prior to application of DSP - digital is handled directly into DSP - and which certainly do not do the conversation back into analogue in non-oversampling mode, not typically do they have anything to do with tubes.

Stefano can you be clear on what your are trying to achieve here and what the reproduction chain looks like? Then the comments might be more helpful to you.

[User211]

Agreed, especially with post #12 Tom.

Though that said DACs vary so much that believing a particular chipset will give you a certain sound is probably delusional given other variables elsewhere.

They will give you a certain sound in a particular DAC that allows chip swapping, however.

[walpurgis]

Hmm. Must be approaching teatime, this talk of chips is making me hungry.

[User211]

Had fish and chips for lunch. Really.

[slodigia]

It seems to me Stefano from his comments here (despite the thread title) may be more focused on R2R/non-oversampling than on tubes per se. The Xiang Sheng doesn't fit in this category.

There is a challenge here though in making no-os, vintage chip based non-OS DACs work with room correction, which for non digital input are generally centred around 24 bit/high resolution analog to digital conversion modules prior to application of DSP - digital is handled directly into DSP - and which certainly do not do the conversation back into analogue in non-oversampling mode, not typically do they have anything to do with tubes.

Stefano can you be clear on what your are trying to achieve here and what the reproduction chain looks like? Then the comments might be more helpful to you.Sure, this is a little bit of background. I was happy in using Naim XS5 as a digital streaming platform, mainly using Tidal and my home NAS, in this configuration I was using the Naim DAC to feed the preamp (Krell kav 250) and the power amp (Monrio).
Then for sake of experimentation I have added a room correction DSP (miniDSP 22DA) that take the digital stream from the Naim, make all the FIR filtering and the then convert to analog toward the preamp.
After quite a lot of testing and multiple try and error mesure and listening sessions, I managed to get a good result in removing the room booming but w/o the anhnemic sound obtained by the default correction. Now, to make a long story short, I now want stop using the miniDSP onboard DAC but using an external DAC. This has implied to replace the miniDSP with one with the digital output. Since there is a lot of digital processing into the DSP, I was looking to a DAC with the bare minimum digital processing and tube output to recover a some warmth lost with the digital filtering .
Hopefully this shed some light on what I would need to achieve.
Thanks to all for all comments!


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[montesquieu]

Sure, this is a little bit of background. I was happy in using Naim XS5 as a digital streaming platform, mainly using Tidal and my home NAS, in this configuration I was using the Naim DAC to feed the preamp (Krell kav 250) and the power amp (Monrio).
Then for sake of experimentation I have added a room correction DSP (miniDSP 22DA) that take the digital stream from the Naim, make all the FIR filtering and the then convert to analog toward the preamp.
After quite a lot of testing and multiple try and error mesure and listening sessions, I managed to get a good result in removing the room booming but w/o the anhnemic sound obtained by the default correction. Now, to make a long story short, I now want stop using the miniDSP onboard DAC but using an external DAC. This has implied to replace the miniDSP with one with the digital output. Since there is a lot of digital processing into the DSP, I was looking to a DAC with the bare minimum digital processing and tube output to recover a some warmth lost with the digital filtering .
Hopefully this shed some light on what I would need to achieve.
Thanks to all for all comments!


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That makes a lot of sense. Do you know what's on the output of the mini-DSP? Audio Note NOS Dacs using the AD1865 are limited to 24bit/96k input.

Could it be though that the thinness is coming from the DSP stream - any further tweaking available there?

[slodigia]

I checked on their web site and the output is 96Khz,

Processor: 32-bit floating-point Analog Devices SHARC DSP
Input/ouput resolution: 24 bits
Maximum input sample rate: 216 kHz
Internal operating sample rate: 96 kHz
Output sample rate: 96 kHz

[montesquieu]

I checked on their web site and the output is 96Khz,

Processor: 32-bit floating-point Analog Devices SHARC DSP
Input/ouput resolution: 24 bits
Maximum input sample rate: 216 kHz
Internal operating sample rate: 96 kHz
Output sample rate: 96 kHz

You should be fine with an AN NOS DAC DAC then. I would look out for a minimum of a 2.1x.

[slodigia]

I have found 2 candidates

ANK 2.1 on ebay, bids start @ 1500 USD

but also found in Italy the Lector Digicode 704, that looks ( at least on paper) a good candidate. Is there anyone that have heard or owned one of these?
I am reluctant to move forward with the ANK because duty and import taxes goes on top of the real cost.

[montesquieu]

I have found 2 candidates

ANK 2.1 on ebay, bids start @ 1500 USD

but also found in Italy the Lector Digicode 704, that looks ( at least on paper) a good candidate. Is there anyone that have heard or owned one of these?
I am reluctant to move forward with the ANK because duty and import taxes goes on top of the real cost.

I imagine being in Italy you could borrow a Lector from somewhere and hear it?

No import duty to Italy from anywhere in the EU (including - at least for the moment - the UK). If nothing locally why not contact Peter Qvortrop directly and see what he has available? Often good bargains on trade-ins.

It's UK kit so I wouldn't be importing from the US.

[slodigia]

I ended up to contact Peter @ audionote and I managed to get a 2.1 ex demo.
Still waiting to be delivered!!


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