View Full Version : Chord Dave - good as vinyl?
Listening to vinyl is a frustrating experience. So many variables - set up, fiddling, dust control, not to mention getting up every 15 minutes to flip the disc. And I do believe new LP manufacturers / distributors are 'aving a larf with their prices and quality.
But like many, I've not found any other format that provides an equivalent listening experience.
I am in a suddenly unexpected position to splash a bit of cash on improving the digital side of things with a better DAC than the Leema Elements unit I've had for a while now. Following the principle of "Buy once and buy well" the direction is pointing to the Chord Dave as being a bit of a game changer, albeit at a fairly eye watering price. This would be fed from a Cyrus X2 renderer and a Leema Antila IIs CD player although I'm not precious about either of these and could also be changed if worthwhile.
Bass, warmth, soundstage and shimmering detail are the principle pursuits. But the vinyl warmth has to be there or I'm just throwing money away.
Before I start the onerous process of demoing, I'd like to hear from anyone that has one - or experience of one - and in particular if they've found it sufficiently satisfying to leave their turntable gathering dust in the corner?
Or is there anything else out there that would do the job for less money?
Hi Bob,
I have heard DAVE a great deal and is a stunning DAC albeit at a price! Comparing it to vinyl or should I say analogue is interesting as i would say DAVE sounds more like analogue on tape rather than vinyl. The comparison with analogue is mainly down to the very smooth and full rich sound DAVE gives you especially if you use it with the m-scaler and preferably a music server rather than A CDP. My very words when I first heard DAVE were that it had an analogue sound with great depth and layering of information. It also plumped the depths of bass unlike anything any analogue device could do. In fact DAVE can do a lot of things vinyl cannot due with its vanishingly low noise floor and great dynamic range abilities. It would be my go to DAC if I had the cash and indeed is the only device I would say truly delivers something nearly as good as analogue.
Now here is the crux, DAVE still sounds digital or should I say more digital than analogue because after extensive listening you are still left with the impression you have been listening to a digital piece of equipment or should I say a digital presentation of music. DAVE smashes many of the panes of glass digital puts between the listener and the music but there is still a hint of detachment from the recording. Vinyl still sounds like you are listening to the real thing and there are no artefacts between you and the recording. Your brain is tricked or feels far more comfortable listening to vinyl and the music sounds more realistic.
I feel DAVE had moved digital onto a different level which is that it gives a glimpse of just how good digital will be and indeed as I have said it can achieve many things vinyl cannot. But it is the things vinyl does achieve which are more convincing in my book than digital, even with all the limitations you mentioned.
DAVE straddles that area in between digital and analogue in that it often sounds like neither and but can sometimes sound like both.
James that's a well considered, very helpful insight, thank you.
Analogue on tape is something I appreciate and know how good it can be. There are times when I can listen to my digital side of life and think "well, this is quite good", but under it all I know what's lacking and whilst it's OK there's a sense of involvement missing. When I put an LP on it's a very different game.
Without wishing to restate the obvious I'm looking to bring digital a lot closer to the analogue sound. A third presentation that could be equally engrossing isn't something that had necessarily crossed my mind. Intriguing.
Your positive descriptions of what DAVE can do have made me consider the problem slightly differently. Maybe there isn't yet a digital solution to getting an analogue sound - but perhaps there's a presentation that's equally satisfying.
Nothing I've read anywhere has a bad thing to say about DAVE (except maybe looks and name but these are just subjective opinions). Performance wise and deliverable sound quality seem to be promoted by all that hear it with a wide cross section of musical tastes.
I think I'm going to have to go listen. Thanks again.
Firebottle
09-12-2018, 09:55
If money was no object I'm sure I would have bought a DAVE by now.
I have heard DAVE in the same environment that Jimbo has and it is very impressive.
Knowing and understanding what Rob Watts of Chord has done in the firmware and filtering domain confirms that not messing up the phase relations in music is crucial.
As a cheaper alternative to DAVE I bought a Bel canto DAC3 which has 'slow roll off' digital and analogue filters, which go a long way to preserving the phase relationships.
For a lower budget I am very happy, particularly as I have just removed the final bottleneck in the system, allowing the full performance to shine through.
:)
Vinyl replay introduces its own character to the sound so you're never going to get digital to sound like vinyl. Yes there are cd players that claim to 'sound like analogue' but IME they just sound a bit muggy with soft bass. With DACS some claim that non-oversampling 'NOS' DACs sound more 'analogue'. (The DAVE is not one of those). Can't comment on that as I've never heard one.
Vinyl replay adds a little bit of second harmonic distortion, giving that warm, almost euphoric sound, and some reverb, giving a sense of more 'depth' to soundstage and a 'live' feel to the sound. In other words, its technical flaws are the reason why many people prefer how it presents the music.
I suppose I am not the only one to have noticed how, as the turntable system becomes better in engineering terms, it starts to lose those traits and starts sounding more like digital. In fact I've heard a system in which a very well-sorted Garrard 401 TT sounded more like a digital source than the accompanying Rega CD player did.
It's also interesting to note that people who have 'digitised' their vinyl by copying it onto a hard drive or burning CDs report that the resulting file or cd sound exactly like they were playing the record on their turntable.
In short if you want the vinyl sound there's no alternative but to use vinyl or a digital copy of your vinyl.
I don't think a Chord DAC will ever achieve the sound presentation you're after.
I would be exploring an Audio Note 2.1x balanced, or a Tron Seven perhaps.
Ali Tait
09-12-2018, 17:16
Have a look at Lumin. I recently got a D2 which I’m very happy with. Some members here have heard it, perhaps they may comment on their impressions.
I also have a Mytek Brooklyn, I’d recommend a listen also, it’s a great dac.
Have a look at Lumin. I recently got a D2 which I’m very happy with. Some members here have heard it, perhaps they may comment on their impressions.
I also have a Mytek Brooklyn, I’d recommend a listen also, it’s a great dac.
I have heard the Mytek and its thinner sounding than DAVE and does not produce the same huge super smooth soundstage.
I know that Chord allows home tests of their cables. Anyone know if they allow the Dave DAC to be tested at home?
To me the proper proof is testing things at home. I have often listened to Dave at shows in well sorted rooms and also once spent listening to Dave for about 40 mins with some cans. For sure all the detail, transparency and range was there but I've never come away feeling overwhelmed. At the asking price I expect to be overwhelmed.
I know that Chord allows home tests of their cables. Anyone know if they allow the Dave DAC to be tested at home?
To me the proper proof is testing things at home. I have often listened to Dave at shows in well sorted rooms and also once spent listening to Dave for about 40 mins with some cans. For sure all the detail, transparency and range was there but I've never come away feeling overwhelmed. At the asking price I expect to be overwhelmed.
I think you're confusing manufacturers. Chord Electronics, that make the Dave, has nothing to do with the cable manufacturer of a similar name.
I'm sure that a Chord Electronics retailer would be delighted to offer a home dem of this very costly DAC.
Oh! Yes I'm confused. Thanks for the clarification Simon.
Fourlegsgood
12-12-2018, 22:04
Also it is really down to the dealer rather than the manufacturer about home demos. If you go and see a dealer grab a listen to Dave combined with the new MScaler and then start saving because the combination is stunning.
StanleyB
12-12-2018, 22:53
I know that Chord allows home tests of their cables. Anyone know if they allow the Dave DAC to be tested at home? To me the proper proof is testing things at home.
Funnily enough I have a customer pass by today who is getting a Dave to trial at home in the next two weeks. He dropped his SEG DAC off at me so that I can upgrade it for him, with the intention of comparing the two DACs. That will be fun.
Funnily enough I have a customer pass by today who is getting a Dave to trial at home in the next two weeks. He dropped his SEG DAC off at me so that I can upgrade it for him, with the intention of comparing the two DACs. That will be fun.
I will be very interested in that comparison Stan.
Dunno what the mscaler costs but DAVE is 8.5k. Eyewatering and I can't really see where the money went.
Would like to hear one mind
jandl100
13-12-2018, 07:16
Dunno what the mscaler costs but DAVE is 8.5k. Eyewatering and I can't really see where the money went.
There it goes ....
https://media.giphy.com/media/EqSBHYTNLuSas/source.gif
:lol:
StanleyB
13-12-2018, 10:22
I will be very interested in that comparison Stan.
Me too. If anyone else who has an SEG is thinking of getting the Dave on trial, Let me know.
To the original poster I'd say get a listen to a PS Audio Directstream if you can.
Cheaper than a Dave (by not much though) but I'd describe the sound (having compared with my own good vinyl rig) as the Dac getting closer to analogue tape than the rose tinted notion of vinyl may people have.
R2R tape does both the best of digital and vinyl, and the Directstream does exactly that.
To the original poster I'd say get a listen to a PS Audio Directstream if you can.
Cheaper than a Dave (by not much though) but I'd describe the sound (having compared with my own good vinyl rig) as the Dac getting closer to analogue tape that the rosy rose tinted notion of vinyl people have.
R2R tape does both the best of digital and vinyl, and the Directstream does exactly that.
I think this is where the best digital is going Gaz. Would love to hear the Directstream, I bet it would give DAVE a run for the money. I thought DAVE sounded more like R2R tape and not really like vinyl. So if the Directstream has this sort of sound it would be definitely a DAc worth investigating.:cool:
If you take an analogue tape and make a digital copy of it the copy is going to retain the character of analogue tape and of the RTR machine they used to transcribe it. So it makes sense that a good digital set up playing an analogue recording will sound like an RTR tape machine. Because that is essentially what you are listening to.
If you take an analogue tape and make a digital copy of it the copy is going to retain the character of analogue tape and of the RTR machine they used to transcribe it. So it makes sense that a good digital set up playing an analogue recording will sound like an RTR tape machine. Because that is essentially what you are listening to.
Do you remember Alans R2R recordings at Nebo and how good they sounded. Much of that music was digital recorded onto tape. What going on there then?
If you take an analogue tape and make a digital copy of it the copy is going to retain the character of analogue tape and of the RTR machine they used to transcribe it. So it makes sense that a good digital set up playing an analogue recording will sound like an RTR tape machine. Because that is essentially what you are listening to.
Depends on the mastering!
(He said ironically...) :)
Do you remember Alans R2R recordings at Nebo and how good they sounded. Much of that music was digital recorded onto tape. What going on there then?
I do.
And it sounded t’rific.
One of those musical experiences you remember.
Do you remember Alans R2R recordings at Nebo and how good they sounded. Much of that music was digital recorded onto tape. What going on there then?
If you take a either a digital or analogue recording and transfer it to (another) analogue tape your going to get a slight increase in distortion and noise floor* and a slight softening of transients. All of which could make the sound subjectively more pleasant to listen to although technically it's a degradation. Also reel to reel is the coolest of all sources so you've got to take that into account too.
* if it's tape to tape copying then you're doubling the amount of noise on each generation of copy.
If you take a either a digital or analogue recording and transfer it to (another) analogue tape your going to get a slight increase in distortion and noise floor* and a slight softening of transients. All of which could make the sound subjectively more pleasant to listen to although technically it's a degradation. Also reel to reel is the coolest of all sources so you've got to take that into account too.
* if it's tape to tape copying then you're doubling the amount of noise on each generation of copy.Agreed.
Similar sort of thing for vinyl. It is its technically dreadful performance compared to digital that makes it sound good on the pressings that are up to it, which must really be very good or dreadfulness injection doesn't work. It needs to be carefully dreadful, though. Too much dreadfulness spoils the broth. That means a multi-K playback setup, carefully honed by some obscure 103 year old Japanese master of the art.
Likewise, my DAC is carefully dreadful. And easily adjustable in terms of its dreadfulness.
Dreadfulness rules.:D
Taking the piss? Sure, but there's a good measure of truth in the above.
Stratmangler
15-12-2018, 09:39
if it's tape to tape copying then you're doubling the amount of noise on each generation of copy.
Don't forget that on top of that the playback head is physically rubbing the source tape's magnetic layer away every time it's played.
It might be a miniscule amount with each pass over the head, but the cumulative degradation eventually makes the source tape unusable.
It ain't a problem for casual use by an audio enthusiast, but when it's precious masters of historical significance it becomes a headache.
It's the disconnect between technically good and subjectively good. You can buy a DAC for a couple of hundred quid that will be technically as perfect as anyone will ever require. It still isn't going to make the music sound like it is playing from a vinyl record. So asking if a Chord Dave is going to sound as good as vinyl is like asking if an apple is going to taste as good as an orange. If you prefer oranges to apples then the answer's always going to be no.
Which is the more 'technically correct' presentation of the recording is irrelevant to how we subjectively feel about the sound. Psychoacoustics plays a big part in our appreciation of sound and a measuring suite is not your brain. Hence vinyl and RTR continue to be regarded as the gold standard of sound by many people even though we've had a domestic replay system that is technically a lot better than either for almost 40 years now.
If we were to be ushered into the mastering suite where our favourite recording was finalised and we sat down and had a listen to it there, how many people out of ten would say 'I want this recording to sound like this on my system?' I reckon it would be less than half. And yet that is 'what the recording sounds like'. That's what they signed off. That's what it is supposed to sound like. But it isn't what everyone will want it to sound like when they sit down to listen to it at home. And there's no getting away from that.
DAVE is an extraordinary DAC in its absolute ability to reveal and unravel detail in digital recordings. Like many folk here I have tried to optimise my vinyl playback to give me as much detail as possible but not at the expense musical enjoyment which is a factor when putting together a system.
One of my criticisms of digital systems is their single minded purpose of chasing detail at the expense of musical enjoyment. DACs can all too often be all about the detail they can retrieve from a recording and in my experience loose the soul or realism of the music. Now this is a quandary as you would think the more detail you have the more realistic the recording? Somehow digital looses that lovely distortions our ears like but this maybe how our hearing works.
but this maybe how our hearing works.
Not just that but a lot also depends on the sound we are personally looking for. Like at the phono stage bake-off, the AQvox was the stage I would have chosen to take home, I think only 1 or 2 people concurred with that. The other 14 or so picked one or other of the valve units.
After a listen to both sets of speakers that turned up (two very different designs) we had a vote as to which to use for the listening and it was split fifty-fifty.
I think this demonstrates that once you get beyond a certain level of quality it all comes down to personal taste and expectations which are a result of various psychological factors that probably couldn't be really quantified in any useful way. Essentially, we like what we like.
Still doesn't change the fact that there is no answer to the question in the o/p. I think the only solution is to make digital copies of your vinyl records and listen to them instead. Should give at least 90% of the vinyl experience without the faff. And no need to shell out 8 grand on a DAVE. Which won't make digital sound any more like vinyl than a £200 DAC does.
If you value detail retreval above all else then the Dave is for you. Does it make music? Not so much to me but I’m a lone voice out there. I prefer a dac with tubes in the design myself.
Spectral Morn
15-12-2018, 14:45
If you value detail retreval above all else then the Dave is for you. Does it make music? Not so much to me but I’m a lone voice out there. I prefer a dac with tubes in the design myself.
I would very much put any of the Chord digital front ends, DACs in that pigeon hole, except the Chord One CD player which was musical and enjoyable.
In the context of this debate I have to give a shout out for the DACs by SW1X Audio Design. If you are after getting music and communication of emotion then look no further.
In addition, as a bonus most of their DAC III range, which are their top spec DACs, are cheaper than the DAVE.
Does it make music? Not so much to me but I’m a lone voice out there.
Not so alone Robin, I actually started a reply to this post at the beginning but thought 'well I'm going to be right out on my own again here', so scrapped it. As the replies came in my instincts were proved correct.
I have heard all the Chord DACs, the Dave was demonstrated in a very high end Chord/B&W system fed from an Innous Zen server. I'm guessing it was around 50K in total value - wonderful to listen to short term, but I couldn't live with it. The other Chord DACs I have heard via various headphone set-ups. I can see why people like them as they are very good at what they do, they're just not to my taste so I wouldn't choose one, even if money was no object. I find them a tad incisive, too correct and too 'Hi-Fi sounding' if that makes any sense?
Interestingly when my Rega DAC was discussed a lot here, pretty much everyone (and most reviewers) preferred the Coax input over USB, which only does redbook as opposed to the Coax 24/192 input. I much prefer the USB input. Not sure if that makes me deaf or what, but I prefer my music to sound more like music and not Hi-Fi. I tend to listen to music for hours on end, so after the wow factor that some systems excel at has worn off, fatigue can set in - Chord DACs do that for me.
It's a personal thing though and we're all different. I actually wish I liked Chord DACs as they are things of beauty, superbly engineered and faultless when it comes to musical presentation, but it's how they do that and their particular sound signature that always stops me from buying one and I've come close.
All I can say to anyone thinking of buying a Chord DAC, make sure you are able to properly listen to one for an extended period before making up your mind.
Not so alone Robin, I actually started a reply to this post at the beginning but thought 'well I'm going to be right out on my own again here', so scrapped it. As the replies came in my instincts were proved correct.
I have heard all the Chord DACs, the Dave was demonstrated in a very high end Chord/B&W system fed from an Innous Zen server. I'm guessing it was around 50K in total value - wonderful to listen to short term, but I couldn't live with it. The other Chord DACs I have heard via various headphone set-ups. I can see why people like them as they are very good at what they do, they're just not to my taste so I wouldn't choose one, even if money was no object. I find them a tad incisive, too correct and too 'Hi-Fi sounding' if that makes any sense?
Interestingly when my Rega DAC was discussed a lot here, pretty much everyone (and most reviewers) preferred the Coax input over USB, which only does redbook as opposed to the Coax 24/192 input. I much prefer the USB input. Not sure if that makes me deaf or what, but I prefer my music to sound more like music and not Hi-Fi. I tend to listen to music for hours on end, so after the wow factor that some systems excel at has worn off, fatigue can set in - Chord DACs do that for me.
It's a personal thing though and we're all different. I actually wish I liked Chord DACs as they are things of beauty, superbly engineered and faultless when it comes to musical presentation, but it's how they do that and their particular sound signature that always stops me from buying one and I've come close.
All I can say to anyone thinking of buying a Chord DAC, make sure you are able to properly listen to one for an extended period before making up your mind.
I know where you're coming from Tim. I call it the HI-Fi Show sound. Will blow your socks off when entering the room, but after 30 minutes its headache time.
I must admit the m-scaler does relax the listening experience a little when using DAVE. There is a general smoothing of the sound with a wider and deeper soundstage and DAVE sounds a little less HIFI. The detail is still there but it does not seem to be so demanding of your attention. The M-scaler + DAVE brings it another step closer to analogue and as has been mentioned before, I refer to analogue tape rather than vinyl.
I an spoilt because I listen to DAVE in one of the most acoustically perfect rooms I have ever experienced and indeed I have heard a lot of equipment in that room, those who have been there know what I am talking about;) I have not heard DAVE in my own system or domestic environment but I have heard the Qutest which was very good indeed. This was fed by an InnuOs server and sounded great.
The OP needs to get a DAVE DAC home and evaluate it in his own system because that will be the only true experience that will tell him if it's worth spending £8000 or nearly £16000 with an m-scaler.
What I feel truly about DAVE is this DAC points to a future where one day digital audio will actually be listenable over long periods of time and you will forget whether it's analogue or digital. Currently I feel it is not there yet but this is close. Maybe in the next few generations of DACs and just as importantly music servers we will have some fabulous musical sound which will be light years away from the early CD experience which was simple atrocious.
30 years has got quite far but when I put some good vinyl on my system I realise it's just not far enough!
jandl100
15-12-2018, 17:36
What I feel truly about DAVE is this DAC points to a future where one day digital audio will actually be listenable over long periods of time and you will forget whether it's analogue or digital.
It's probably different expectations, but I get that at home now - and that is with a £90 DAC.
I home demmed a Hugo2 and thought it one of the most unmusical bits of hifi I have ever heard.
I suspect we are listening for different aspects of the music.
i can listen on my cans all day with my smsl or the xs tbh. both good to my ears... the smsl is my main one for listening as i use cans more and its sited right beside my chair. Ive considered replacing it, but i keep saying to myself.... what with;)
I also have no problem listening to digital for long periods. In fact I'm generally unhappy that I have to turn it off when it gets too late as I'd like to carry on listening.
I came to the conclusion several years ago now that 'digital fatigue' is a problem with the amplification, not the source.
I also have no problem listening to digital for long periods. In fact I'm generally unhappy that I have to turn it off when it gets too late as I'd like to carry on listening.
I came to the conclusion several years ago now that 'digital fatigue' is a problem with the amplification, not the source.
Speakers for me.
Sorry, To clarify. As opposed to amplification.
Anything can be tiring if not to your liking
True Grant. We all hear things differently and determine what is important to us when we are listening. Evaluation of any aspect of our system can usually find a weakness somewhere. This can contribute to fatigue or simply a unsatisfactory sound.
The OP needs to get a DAVE DAC home and evaluate it in his own system because that will be the only true experience that will tell him if it's worth spending £8000 or nearly £16000 with an m-scaler.
Totally agree with this statement James.
Having carried out many "in store" demos over the years, not too many have proven overly useful - an indicator at best. I've even been fooled (by the kit) on a couple of occasions into taking something home that within an hour was being put back into the box for returning. It just didn't work in my room with my system. On something as serious as the DAVE the home demo is going to be quite exhaustive in terms of time - hopefully not so on my ears.
Comments regarding my original question have been fairly wide ranging, not surprising really considering the wide range of musical tastes and audible flavours appreciated by those who've commented. And of course everyone has a different mix of kit in the system chain.
The comparison of apples and oranges is probably valid - you can't make an apple taste like an orange - true. Perhaps the DAVE's going to introduce a banana into the mix? The point being that there is no "best sound", only what appeals most to an individual at a point in time. My Leema Antila CD player was once the backbone of my system and I can still listen to it for hours on end without tiring or fatigue. I'm not averse to good digital presentation, but what's good to me may make your ears curl up (although hopefully not).
The only bit I can't agree with is Tim's "I actually wish I liked Chord DACs as they are things of beauty". But this is how it should be. To me they look like something left over from Captain Nemo clearing out the Nautilus.
Dave might just make it to me before Christmas, but more likely first week in Jan. It'll be nothing if not interesting.
It is a big decision Bob and spending as much time evaluating DAVE as possible would be essential when spending so much cash.
If you want to hear what DAVE can do there is a chap 45 minutes from you who could demonstrate it in a fabulous system.
His name is Steve and he is based in Brierly Hill, his listening environment is rather special. You can contact him through his business site here.
http://www.sonoritydesign.co.uk
Duly noted, thanks James. I'd not heard of that one and Brierly Hill isn't far away.
Looks like the sort of establishment I'd best not have a credit card with me. :)
Duly noted, thanks James. I'd not heard of that one and Brierly Hill isn't far away.
Looks like the sort of establishment I'd best not have a credit card with me. :)
Steve has some eye popping gear up there and his listening room is truly amazing. I have heard many fabulous pieces if kit up there over the years. I doubt anyone can show DAVEs capabilities better than Steve.
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