View Full Version : I've definitely got one this time and wish I didn't bother
Just picked up a Project Debut 2 with a red Ortofon cartridge
Tried it out with a pretty mint copy of Fleetwood Mac Rumours and have to say I'm quite spectacularly unimpressed, crackly, tinny and generally sounds crap compared to CDs, in fact everything I remember from my last experience 20+ years ago
Sorry but I'm not sold on vinyl
maybe needs setting up better. TT's are very susceptible to minute mis settings... also what is the phono stage?
maybe needs setting up better. TT's are very susceptible to minute mis settings... also what is the phono stage?
Amp has a built in phonostage that is switchable between MM and MC
Just picked up a Project Debut 2 with a red Ortofon cartridge
Tried it out with a pretty mint copy of Fleetwood Mac Rumours and have to say I'm quite spectacularly unimpressed, crackly, tinny and generally sounds crap compared to CDs, in fact everything I remember from my last experience 20+ years ago
Sorry but I'm not sold on vinyl
You need a better deck, better phono stage, better cartridge and a record cleaning machine. Not necessarily in that order. If your digital set up is properly sorted and your system is properly sorted to get the best out of digital, then getting vinyl up to the same standard is going to be expensive. There's no way round it. I backed out after spending about £1500 and still not getting it quite there. And only £200 of that went on the actual turntable.
not sure the stage on the pioneer will be particularly good, although i could be wrong. That said, it should be good enough with what you have to make music if deck is set up optimally ... The person you bought it from may not have had it set up right or it may have changed in transit. Certain that a better phono plugged into a line level input will improve things, once the set up is right.
Vinyl can be rewarding, but it does need more input from user than cd
Digital is generally easier and cheaper to get an "acceptable" sound
for me vinyl is more satisfying when you get it right. No getting away from it will cost you more money and patience to getting it there though
Mike Reed
01-12-2018, 12:38
Casting nasturtiums on the amp's ph/stage, the deck or even the cart. may be justified, but the first place I'd look is the arm/cart. set-up and alignment. Rumours (and other Fleetwood Mac albums) tends to be a smidgen on the bright side, depending on pressing, but you should definitely not get a thinner sound than CD. Check it out with a protractor.
Technics SL1200 bought used with a better arm fitted and an Achromat - about £700 assuming you don't go mad with the arm - a Rega RB300 works.
Quality phono stage - something like or on a par with the AQVox http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200606.htm - about a grand.
Cartridge of your choice - needs to be decent so budget at least £500 or ideally twice that
Moth record cleaning machine £450
So just shy of three grand to get something that will give the glory of vinyl without the drawbacks being too obvious. I'd say that's the cheapest it can be done if you really want serious vinyl replay.
hifi_dave
01-12-2018, 12:49
I'm with Martin on this. That Project isn't a great ambassador for vinyl playback and the inbuilt phono stage might not be great. The 2M cartridges are IMO thin and bright but you should have far better results with it than you have.
Make sure the cartridge is set up properly and that you are tracking at the maximum recommended for the 2M.
You can get very enjoyable sounds with a Rega Planar-1 and no setting up issues.
The debate goes on and on.
Favor Vinyl or Favor CD, is a very individual choice.
If I were to encourage somebody on a HiFi Journey today, I would certainly point them to a Charity Shop, to purchase a large initial music collection, for a very affordable outlay, have a haggle as well I do :rolleyes:.
There are numerous options on CDP's to the point CDP Rolling is cheaper than Tube Rolling, but that would not be a recommendation to a newbie.
Having said all that, I am in favor of Vinyl, I don't know why that is so.
I did all the Vinyl/CDP shoot outs one could endure in the 90's. Vinyl always got my vote.
Lets do a little bit of time travel, back to the era of the Vinyl vs CD.
Man walks into reputable HiFi Store, Man has a pre-arranged appointment to duel two different sources in a spirit of educational experience to be gained.
Man has a leaning to Vinyl, as he has grown up with this medium.
Man is looking at a Mitchell Gyrodek or Orbe, Pink Triangle, plus all the aggressive product placements from Linn, depending on which store is being visited.
Man is drooling with a desire to bring such a device home.
For what ever reasons, this whole experience and time period has stayed with me, the design, the engineering the pride of ownership. The inquisitive nature to look into how to extract the best from such a source.
I have proved to myself recently and had the same opinion expressed by a few experienced listeners. that for a outlay off less than a value of a mid range MC Cartridge, a CDP and DAC, can go Toe to Toe, with my expensive vinyl set up.
When I look at a CDP and DAC on the rack, and I look at a TT, Tonearm, Cartridge, Phonostage on the Rack.
The satisfaction of all the hard work that went into creating the TT Source and the excitement of continued learning on how to take the TT source to another level is very consuming.
As for the CD, a more recent escapade of mine, it is more a case of when will I be able to get down the Charity Shop again to get a few bargains, but I do not intend, that this statement should give a impression it is not enjoyed, as it is very much. :)
Rega's the way to go with budget vinyl, should have done your research fella! :)
walpurgis
01-12-2018, 13:08
crackly, tinny and generally sounds crap compared to CDs
Vinyl shouldn't sound like that. Even my forty five year old Pioneer PL-12D with Shure cartridge that cost peanuts does clean, full bodied sound, if not as lucid as expensive decks.
Three things spring to mind. Is it a crap phono stage? Is the cartridge set up right? Is there an equipment mismatch anywhere?
RobbieGong
01-12-2018, 13:09
Yep - Set up is key, essential, imperative, vitally important when it comes to vinyl replay.
If you havnt set it up yourself then do so starting from scratch like this, straight forward, non confusing.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jizk-3JGzag
Double check tracking force with something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Digital-Tracking-Force-Pressure-Stylus-Scale-Gauge-Professional-Audio-Turntable/15021589045?iid=253761904762
or this type thing https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turntable-Stylus-Force-Scale-Gauge-5g-0-01g-Meter-for-Tonearm-Phono-Cartridge-/263820641162
Then after the above, check your cartridge / stylus front on - you want the cart body (as a guide) to sit perfectly horizontal to the record surface.
Next, you'll need a suitable protractor for your deck - someone may be able to recommend one / attach a link to one - Get the stylus tip to follow the arc and the cartridge sitting as squarely and straight to match the grid lines at the null point.
Do arm height adjust as a final - try and go for a horizontal rake as an initial starting point.
These are the basics and should have things sounding better than what you're currently hearing.
Do make sure your system has been on a while / is warmed up nicely. Spin a few sides after initial set up and see how things sound from there.
Didn't realise the deck in question has an inbuilt phono stage. I bet that is pretty grim. Can it be bypassed as the one in the Pioneer amp will be loads better, I'd bet any money.
Gary, a couple of years ago I attended a demo session at a audio dealer here, where the local Project rep was dueling two of their basic decks against a $3500 Naim cd player. He started with a Debut Carbon fitted with a 2M Red (same combo as yours), fed into an inexpensive little Project phono stage. Well, it was no contest....even that basic vinyl setup sounded noticeably better than the cd player costing $3000 more. Things got better still once he moved up the range to a $1200 deck, a 2M Blue and better phono amp. That demo convinced me that a well set up basic TT can sound better than a cd player.
That said, the Debut/2M Red combo did have a somewhat thin and harsh sound compared to the more expensive deck/cart/amp combo. Still sounded better than the cdp though.
I agree with the others here that you either have a setup that's off, or the phono stage is holding things back, or both.
Don't give up. It's worth the effort. Hope this helps...
Svend
Mikeandvan
01-12-2018, 13:49
The 2M Blue is loads better than the Red. And for me CD is currently beating vinyl as my go to music source. For peanuts you can pick up pristine cds off Ebay, without all the bollocks of over grading 'mother stampers' vinyl nerds.
" Vinyl Nerd " Ouch that cut deep.
horses for courses really. both have their good and bad points... vinyl needs a lot of setting up sometimes. it can be depressing to spend cash and get something that sounds rubbish. streaming too has issues in setup and many folk have just given up on rpi's because they cant get them to work properly.... its a learning curve
I'll be honest I love my vinyl setup but it cost a few £1000 compared to my digital side costing a few £100.
Prefer vinyl but if you were just going by cost the digital side beats vinyl hands down.
I'm thinking of doing CD shortly to try it as the media is far far cheaper than vinyl and most of the new vinyl production is just CD onto LP.
Gaz, I'm not surprised your new turntable doesn't sound great it's budget kit compared to your digital side and will never compete.
Saw this the other day, really tempted me since the arm and cartridge would cost the best part of £1600. https://www.audiblefidelity.co.uk/collections/turntables/products/marantz-tt15-s1-turntable
A decent 2nd hand £3-500 phonostage and away you go.
Oh well it looks quite nice so I'll use it for ornimental purposes
Audio Al
01-12-2018, 15:31
The debate goes on and on.
Favor Vinyl or Favor CD, is a very individual choice.
If I were to encourage somebody on a HiFi Journey today, I would certainly point them to a Charity Shop, to purchase a large initial music collection, for a very affordable outlay, have a haggle as well I do :rolleyes:.
There are numerous options on CDP's to the point CDP Rolling is cheaper than Tube Rolling, but that would not be a recommendation to a newbie.
Having said all that, I am in favor of Vinyl, I don't know why that is so.
I did all the Vinyl/CDP shoot outs one could endure in the 90's. Vinyl always got my vote.
Lets do a little bit of time travel, back to the era of the Vinyl vs CD.
Man walks into reputable HiFi Store, Man has a pre-arranged appointment to duel two different sources in a spirit of educational experience to be gained.
Man has a leaning to Vinyl, as he has grown up with this medium.
Man is looking at a Mitchell Gyrodek or Orbe, Pink Triangle, plus all the aggressive product placements from Linn, depending on which store is being visited.
Man is drooling with a desire to bring such a device home.
For what ever reasons, this whole experience and time period has stayed with me, the design, the engineering the pride of ownership. The inquisitive nature to look into how to extract the best from such a source.
I have proved to myself recently and had the same opinion expressed by a few experienced listeners. that for a outlay off less than a value of a mid range MC Cartridge, a CDP and DAC, can go Toe to Toe, with my expensive vinyl set up.
When I look at a CDP and DAC on the rack, and I look at a TT, Tonearm, Cartridge, Phonostage on the Rack.
The satisfaction of all the hard work that went into creating the TT Source and the excitement of continued learning on how to take the TT source to another level is very consuming.
As for the CD, a more recent escapade of mine, it is more a case of when will I be able to get down the Charity Shop again to get a few bargains, but I do not intend, that this statement should give a impression it is not enjoyed, as it is very much. :)
:) Well said that man , Bravo :youtheman::more::clapclapclap:
:D
Rega's the way to go with budget vinyl, should have done your research fella! :)
I did
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?60651-Newbie-after-advice-on-budget-TT
Most recommendations were for Project decks lol
RobbieGong
01-12-2018, 15:38
Quote Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
The debate goes on and on.
Favor Vinyl or Favor CD, is a very individual choice.
If I were to encourage somebody on a HiFi Journey today, I would certainly point them to a Charity Shop, to purchase a large initial music collection, for a very affordable outlay, have a haggle as well I do .
There are numerous options on CDP's to the point CDP Rolling is cheaper than Tube Rolling, but that would not be a recommendation to a newbie.
Having said all that, I am in favor of Vinyl, I don't know why that is so.
I did all the Vinyl/CDP shoot outs one could endure in the 90's. Vinyl always got my vote.
Lets do a little bit of time travel, back to the era of the Vinyl vs CD.
Man walks into reputable HiFi Store, Man has a pre-arranged appointment to duel two different sources in a spirit of educational experience to be gained.
Man has a leaning to Vinyl, as he has grown up with this medium.
Man is looking at a Mitchell Gyrodek or Orbe, Pink Triangle, plus all the aggressive product placements from Linn, depending on which store is being visited.
Man is drooling with a desire to bring such a device home.
For what ever reasons, this whole experience and time period has stayed with me, the design, the engineering the pride of ownership. The inquisitive nature to look into how to extract the best from such a source.
I have proved to myself recently and had the same opinion expressed by a few experienced listeners. that for a outlay off less than a value of a mid range MC Cartridge, a CDP and DAC, can go Toe to Toe, with my expensive vinyl set up.
When I look at a CDP and DAC on the rack, and I look at a TT, Tonearm, Cartridge, Phonostage on the Rack.
The satisfaction of all the hard work that went into creating the TT Source and the excitement of continued learning on how to take the TT source to another level is very consuming.
As for the CD, a more recent escapade of mine, it is more a case of when will I be able to get down the Charity Shop again to get a few bargains, but I do not intend, that this statement should give a impression it is not enjoyed, as it is very much.
About sums it up for me too really.
Add to that, have had more down time than anything else, with one thing or the other, spent enough, learnt tons.
Then and after all the pain, the best I have heard my TT source / system has literally blown me away, erased every ounce of journey pain....
Fabulous and absolutely all consuming for sure ;)
I did
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?60651-Newbie-after-advice-on-budget-TT
Most recommendations were for Project decks lol
True. And Pioneer, Rega and AT got one vote each. But my guess is you don't have the cartridge set up right. It needs to be perfect, fractions out will make a big difference. It's a massive pain in the arse to do it unless you've done it a lot in which case it is just a standard pain in the arse. Anyway fix that and it still won't be wonderful but it shouldn't sound unpleasant.
Or you could just put a cd in and press play.:D
hifi_dave
01-12-2018, 16:34
I did
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?60651-Newbie-after-advice-on-budget-TT
Most recommendations were for Project decks lol
You did and I was gritting my teeth with some of the recommendations.
If you get a chance to return it and get a refund, you really can't go wrong with a Rega Planar-1. As plug n play as it gets and the results are very good indeed. I've lost count of the number of these I have sold the past few years to vinyl newcomers and all have been well pleased with the results. You don't need to spend a fortune to get great results from vinyl.
Stryder5
01-12-2018, 17:34
Your record may be "minty", but is it clean?
I seem to remember from your original post about your records. I did advise you to get a record cleaner first!
I did have Ortofon 2M red, didn't last the day out.
I agree about setup though, if you need help with this ask, it's paramount.
Gary
OK this is weird, the record I tried was bought specifically for the purpose from a local record shop and appears spotlessly clean.
I have found my old record collection and tried various ones all of which sound infinitely better than Rumours, I'm actually liking the sound.
I have also remembered what odd taste I had in music, I've found everything from Alice Cooper & Kiss through to 12" versions of Girls on Film and Music & Lights by Immagination.
You did and I was gritting my teeth with some of the recommendations.
If you get a chance to return it and get a refund, you really can't go wrong with a Rega Planar-1. As plug n play as it gets and the results are very good indeed. I've lost count of the number of these I have sold the past few years to vinyl newcomers and all have been well pleased with the results. You don't need to spend a fortune to get great results from vinyl.
Nowt wrong with projects better decks. not tried the cheapest in the stable tho. one i had sounded very good, even with a 3m red. not as good as my other decks but it was a fair bit cheaper.
Crackles
01-12-2018, 21:58
You did and I was gritting my teeth with some of the recommendations.
If you get a chance to return it and get a refund, you really can't go wrong with a Rega Planar-1. As plug n play as it gets and the results are very good indeed. I've lost count of the number of these I have sold the past few years to vinyl newcomers and all have been well pleased with the results. You don't need to spend a fortune to get great results from vinyl.I had an RP1 service pack a few years back and I was pretty disappointed with it. It did have a quite basic standard cart on it though.
I have still got it and I keep meaning to try it with my Ortofon Blue to see if it makes a big difference.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
You should have bought mine ;)
Sherwood
01-12-2018, 22:22
The debate goes on and on.
Favor Vinyl or Favor CD, is a very individual choice.
If I were to encourage somebody on a HiFi Journey today, I would certainly point them to a Charity Shop, to purchase a large initial music collection, for a very affordable outlay, have a haggle as well I do :rolleyes:.
There are numerous options on CDP's to the point CDP Rolling is cheaper than Tube Rolling, but that would not be a recommendation to a newbie.
Having said all that, I am in favor of Vinyl, I don't know why that is so.
I did all the Vinyl/CDP shoot outs one could endure in the 90's. Vinyl always got my vote.
Lets do a little bit of time travel, back to the era of the Vinyl vs CD.
Man walks into reputable HiFi Store, Man has a pre-arranged appointment to duel two different sources in a spirit of educational experience to be gained.
Man has a leaning to Vinyl, as he has grown up with this medium.
Man is looking at a Mitchell Gyrodek or Orbe, Pink Triangle, plus all the aggressive product placements from Linn, depending on which store is being visited.
Man is drooling with a desire to bring such a device home.
For what ever reasons, this whole experience and time period has stayed with me, the design, the engineering the pride of ownership. The inquisitive nature to look into how to extract the best from such a source.
I have proved to myself recently and had the same opinion expressed by a few experienced listeners. that for a outlay off less than a value of a mid range MC Cartridge, a CDP and DAC, can go Toe to Toe, with my expensive vinyl set up.
When I look at a CDP and DAC on the rack, and I look at a TT, Tonearm, Cartridge, Phonostage on the Rack.
The satisfaction of all the hard work that went into creating the TT Source and the excitement of continued learning on how to take the TT source to another level is very consuming.
As for the CD, a more recent escapade of mine, it is more a case of when will I be able to get down the Charity Shop again to get a few bargains, but I do not intend, that this statement should give a impression it is not enjoyed, as it is very much. :)
Sorry? Haggle in a charity shop? Either buy or get out! Never heard such nonsense. If something doesn't sell in a charity shop then they will bring the price down. They have an obligation to get the best price for donated items!
montesquieu
01-12-2018, 22:51
Sorry? Haggle in a charity shop? Either buy or get out! Never heard such nonsense. If something doesn't sell in a charity shop then they will bring the price down. They have an obligation to get the best price for donated items!
Totally agree. You don't haggle in charity shops.
I often see stuff that's wrongly priced - almost invariably priced higher than what it should be for its condition. In those relatively few shops that have a decent selection, prices tend to be optimistic to say the least.
But there's absolutely no point in arguing the toss with the volunteers who work there or even the guy who comes along once every week or two to price stuff. It's a charity shop!
BTW I tend to agree with those who have said vinyl is an expensive business if you really want to rival or exceed what can be done with digital. Every link in the chain requires serious consideration. While at the same time the entry price for really good digital has been rattling down. On the other hand there are lots of reasons why it can be fun even if your digital is better, digging out old albums, handling them, looking at the cover art, enjoying the 'rhythm' of a 20 minute side as a paced and highly considered logical and emotional unit (as they were for many bands), is more than nostalgia it's communing with the past in a special way.
walpurgis
01-12-2018, 22:55
I would have thought charity shops would welcome any sale. Haggled or otherwise. I have not haggled in one, but there are no rules against it.
If I were to encourage somebody on a HiFi Journey today, I would certainly point them to a Charity Shop, to purchase a large initial music collection, for a very affordable outlay, have a haggle as well I do
You haggle in a charity shop ? I usually pay over the asking price.
Crackles
02-12-2018, 13:46
I would have thought charity shops would welcome any sale. Haggled or otherwise. I have not haggled in one, but there are no rules against it.They get rid of a lot of stuff that they can't sell so they would probably rather sell it at a discount.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
jandl100
02-12-2018, 13:53
Haggle in a charity shop?
Well, I've been the guy on the till for over a decade now as a day a week volunteer for various charitable organisations - and hagglers are welcome, although the answer is usually No.
But why not ask? - as Tom says, prices asked can be a bit random - whether it be by an un-knowledgable volunteer or an over-optimistic 'expert' who pops in once a fortnight or so.
... and certainly for multiple purchases, I'd rather sell 5 items for £10 than 2 items for £5. It gets money in and makes room for new stuff to go out.
Sherwood
02-12-2018, 14:43
Haggle in a charity shop?
Well, I've been the guy on the till for over a decade now as a day a week volunteer for various charitable organisations - and hagglers are welcome, although the answer is usually No.
But why not ask? - as Tom says, prices asked can be a bit random - whether it be by an un-knowledgable volunteer or an over-optimistic 'expert' who pops in once a fortnight or so.
... and certainly for multiple purchases, I'd rather sell 5 items for £10 than 2 items for £5. It gets money in and makes room for new stuff to go out.
I have no problem per se in buying second hand from charity shops or elsewhere. My problem is with the amount of time it takes to sort through buckets of rubbish to find one decent disc. The problem with many charity shops is that they do not manage their stocks well. My local Barnados usually has several shelves of cds. The problem is that they are at a height that you need to kneel down to read the titles and are uniformly priced at £1 a piece. There is no quality control: scratched discs and cracked cases are intermingled with pristine discs.
I only go to Barnados a couple of times a year to drop stuff off, but I see discs that have been there for well over a year and will never sell at the asking price. Good stock management would have the charity shop shift non-selling items to a bargain bin after a month or two. That is the way that they can can maximise revenue from donated goods. I know that this is what I expect when I donate items and would be annoyed if good quality items given in the expectation that they will generate a reasonable amount sell for a pittance.
Geoff
jandl100
02-12-2018, 15:20
^ True enough, Geoff.
A decently managed charity shop should be doing all of that - from sensibly managed stock turnover (many charity shops have a rolling 2 week cycle of swapping out unsold goods for different items) to careful quality control where shoddy donations go straight to the recycling company and don't make it to the shop floor at all.
jandl100
02-12-2018, 15:25
.... as for floor-level display of LPs. Well, that's a solid charity shop tradition going back many years.
It keeps the old geezers' knees from seizing up and has been recommended by all Harley St specialists. :D
jandl100
02-12-2018, 16:44
Whilst I no longer "do" vinyl, I have decades of experience and looking at your location I see you can't be too far from me, Gaz.
Forest of Dean, yay! :)
I still have an Ortofon stylus gauge so I can check tracking force and give the setup a general once-over.
I'd be happy to pop round sometime and have a look.
I'll drop a PM.
jandl100
02-12-2018, 16:55
Seems like someone on Vinyl Engine had the same problem with that tt - "the thing that dissapointed me was the general tinniness of the sound."
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4433
The thread ended without it getting sorted, although the guy had it all checked and set up by a Project dealer. Damaged stylus was suspected.
Mike Reed
02-12-2018, 17:07
An innovation at my local Barnardo's (and almost certainly across the board) is an invitation which almost appears as a condition that when you pay by card, a 25p excess payment appears on the machine. It foxed me at first, creating uncertainty about entering my pin until I had it explained.
For a nationwide (or any?) charity shop to ask for an extra financial donation in this devious and almost certainly embarrassing way is beyond the pale, i.m.o.
It seems that they are having problems raising money. This is not the way to rectify the situation. They simply need to stop spending thousands transforming their charity shops into swish gift shops; also to bring their prices down to better equate to their competitors' price tags.
An innovation at my local Barnardo's (and almost certainly across the board) is an invitation which almost appears as a condition that when you pay by card, a 25p excess payment appears on the machine. It foxed me at first, creating uncertainty about entering my pin until I had it explained.
For a nationwide (or any?) charity shop to ask for an extra financial donation in this devious and almost certainly embarrassing way is beyond the pale, i.m.o.
It seems that they are having problems raising money. This is not the way to rectify the situation. They simply need to stop spending thousands transforming their charity shops into swish gift shops; also to bring their prices down to better equate to their competitors' price tags.
Won't that be to cover the cost to them of the card transaction? Most small shops charge. Can be 80p in some places.
Seems like someone on Vinyl Engine had the same problem with that tt - "the thing that dissapointed me was the general tinniness of the sound."
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4433
The thread ended without it getting sorted, although the guy had it all checked and set up by a Project dealer. Damaged stylus was suspected.
Several years ago a work mate gave me a Project Debut; I gave it to another mate shortly after - thin/no "body' to the sound, my very old Rega planar 2 (wood surround/s shaped arm sounded so much better). I don't think that it is down to cartridge.
willbewill
03-12-2018, 07:32
I thought the government banned card fees
What tends to happen in my locality is that shops won't take card payment below a certain value.
I thought the government banned card fees
What tends to happen in my locality is that shops won't take card payment below a certain value.Yip I thought they banned surcharges on Debit cards a while back but shops seem to have ignored it.
Some student in front of me the other day buying 2 litre bottle of Coca-Cola and some sweets, total three quid. Wants to pay by card :rolleyes:, bloke tells him extra 80p charge for card payment, he was fine with it. (Then you see them on the telly complaining about how much debt they're in. Whatever.)
walpurgis
03-12-2018, 10:50
I pay near enough everything with my debit card.
Bought two light bulbs and a pack of dog treats on Saturday for around four quid and paid via card. That's what it's for!
I seldom use cash, thirty quid lasts me a month. It may be different elsewhere, but I never get refused or charged extra for card payments.
always carry some cash. usually enough for my shopping in case there is an issue with cards etc. so min 50 in wallet. not had to use it for a while tho.
I like to have about a ton in cash at any time, don't feel secure otherwise. All those years on the dole living hand to mouth when all the money I had in the world was what was in my jeans pocket had an effect on me I think.
Some student in front of me the other day buying 2 litre bottle of Coca-Cola and some sweets, total three quid. Wants to pay by card :rolleyes:, bloke tells him extra 80p charge for card payment, he was fine with it. (Then you see them on the telly complaining about how much debt they're in. Whatever.)
Agreed. Then you get some left wing prof guru coming over from Oz telling us there s 16 million people living in poverty in this country. Hmmm how about budgeting folks rather than buying
the next must have item on credit. Not that all this is helping the poor mans vinyl problems of course!. I say stick with it mate its normally worth it in the end
montesquieu
03-12-2018, 12:26
I pay near enough everything with my debit card.
Bought two light bulbs and a pack of dog treats on Saturday for around four quid and paid via card. That's what it's for!
I seldom use cash, thirty quid lasts me a month. It may be different elsewhere, but I never get refused or charged extra for card payments.
Pretty much the same.
Since 'contactless' payments came in most shops have abandoned charges altogether, that's because the charges have fallen dramatically for contactless, to typically about 1% for a larger chain whose transactions are via a major bank, so a penny in every pound.
It's more for small shops and sole traders using paypal, worldpay or some of the more expensive variants but still below 3% - so max 15p for a £5 transaction. So you'd think they want the business at that, if their margins aren't able to absorb that then they shouldn't be in business.
Anyway it's nowhere near the old 50p or 80p that some used to quote, being cynical it could be that some shopkeepers are happy to take the extra off idiots willing to pay it (see Macca's comment above), and accept any sales lost to those who tell them to naff off and walk out.
Haselsh1
03-12-2018, 12:48
Back in 1983 when I bought my first ever CD player I thought I had reached Nirvana. Thirty five years later I have finally realised that I was absolutely right. I have almost sold off my entire LP collection and removed vinyl replay from my life. I feel liberated. I have done it now as I finally felt that the time was right for me to do it. The outlay is phenomenal with the returns marginal. CD is entirely the opposite. I wish the same were true with photography.
;)
Haselsh1
03-12-2018, 12:49
I like to have about a ton in cash at any time, don't feel secure otherwise. All those years on the dole living hand to mouth when all the money I had in the world was what was in my jeans pocket had an effect on me I think.
Lovely sentiment from another who has been there and shared.
Back in 1983 when I bought my first ever CD player I thought I had reached Nirvana. Thirty five years later I have finally realised that I was absolutely right. I have almost sold off my entire LP collection and removed vinyl replay from my life. I feel liberated. I have done it now as I finally felt that the time was right for me to do it. The outlay is phenomenal with the returns marginal. CD is entirely the opposite. I wish the same were true with photography.
;)
Shaun, what's behind that statement? Not happy with digital photography? (asks he who is a die-hard film user :) )
To go back to the original post I had a Project Classic not that long ago. It sounded pretty dreadful with the Ortofon Cartridge it came with (the Silver which I think is supposed to be slightly better than the Red).
It sounded exactly as you have described. Played around with set up and put enough hours on it to give it a fighting chance and it changed very little.
I'd start with the cart and go from there.
hifi_dave
03-12-2018, 14:53
I thought the government banned card fees
What tends to happen in my locality is that shops won't take card payment below a certain value.
Nope. I pay around 3% for a transaction. If I took Amex, I believe that is 6%.
Mike Reed
03-12-2018, 15:02
Pretty much the same.
Since 'contactless' payments came in most shops have abandoned charges altogether, that's because the charges have fallen dramatically for contactless, to typically about 1% for a larger chain whose transactions are via a major bank, so a penny in every pound.
It's more for small shops and sole traders using paypal, worldpay or some of the more expensive variants but still below 3% - so max 15p for a £5 transaction. So you'd think they want the business at that, if their margins aren't able to absorb that then they shouldn't be in business.
Anyway it's nowhere near the old 50p or 80p that some used to quote, being cynical it could be that some shopkeepers are happy to take the extra off idiots willing to pay it (see Macca's comment above), and accept any sales lost to those who tell them to naff off and walk out.
I think that charging for credit cards was made illegal a year or so ago; don't think it was the advent of contactless. Even smaller shops (incl. charities) which used to have an 'over a fiver' rule no longer have conditions. Can't ever remember charges on debit cards as it's taken straight out of you bank account for a pittance in charges to the retailer.
hifi_dave
03-12-2018, 15:23
Charging a customer to cover retailer's fees is not allowed but unfortunately, the retailer still pays the card processing company a fee. As I said above, I pay 3% for each and every transaction, not sure what I pay for debit cards but it isn't a "pittance".
dare say the power users like supermarkets will pay less...
hifi_dave
03-12-2018, 17:40
I have no idea what the large companies pay but it isn't 3%. I can't even give "cash back" as that will cost me 3% but the supermarkets and larger stores do it readily.
Update
Having tried a very eclectic variety of records (which are in far better condition than expected having spent many years in the loft) I am much happier with the sound, I'm actually quite liking it in fact, I can't put my finger on it but although overall SQ may not be technically as good as CD there's a naturalness (is that a word?) about it.
Happy bunny now
Pigmy Pony
03-12-2018, 18:18
You haggle in a charity shop ? I usually pay over the asking price.
I visited a couple of charity shops in Keswick a couple of years ago Roy, and I very much doubt you would pay over their asking price.
Led Zep's Physical Grafitti vinyl that looked like it had been rescued from a landfill £99 to you mate. It was displayed in a locked glass case to make it look more valuable. Also a 'Fat Face' scarf which looked like it had been stolen from a sleeping tramp was going for a tenner, while a Fat Face shop 30 yards away was selling the equivalent scarf for £18.
Not all bad though - when they saw what I was wearing, they offered me stuff for free :D
Most of the charity shops here and there are lots, are more expensive than the new shops in many cases. Much of there stuff is tat too. Sure the good stuff gets removed at beginning before it hits the shop
Pigmy Pony
03-12-2018, 19:16
A few years ago I donated a Sony Home Cinema setup that had never even been taken out of the box, and when I left the shop the guy working there came to the door to wave me off. At the time I thought he was perhaps really grateful for my act of kindness, but now I think he was making sure I was gone before chucking it in his car.
Ruddy hell ,here was me hoping to persuade Gaz to buy my Project and all you old farts are doing is slagging them off (in the main ) or discussing what you use to pay for your sweeties or something for the weekend ,Sir !!!! :doh:
;)
RobbieGong
03-12-2018, 22:28
Update
Having tried a very eclectic variety of records (which are in far better condition than expected having spent many years in the loft) I am much happier with the sound, I'm actually quite liking it in fact, I can't put my finger on it but although overall SQ may not be technically as good as CD there's a naturalness (is that a word?) about it.
Happy bunny now
Glad it's got better Gary,
It's that 'naturalness' thats at the heart of vinyl replay, regardless of the level your system is at, it's there.
It's an analogue thing and wonderful it is too :)
walpurgis
03-12-2018, 22:40
Most turntable and cartridge combos can turn in a reasonable representation of music to a greater or lesser degree, but feed the signal into an inadequate phono stage and the result can be total poop!
Glad it's got better Gary,
It's that 'naturalness' thats at the heart of vinyl replay, regardless of the level your system is at, it's there.
It's an analogue thing and wonderful it is too :). 3 Cheers to that Sir !
Haselsh1
04-12-2018, 10:06
Shaun, what's behind that statement? Not happy with digital photography? (asks he who is a die-hard film user :) )
Check out any exhibitions that may be in your country as I have in mine. The quality of film based photography is just so stunning compared to digital. If the exhibition contains both film and digital side by side it is just so obvious which is which. In film photography I love the fact that there are so many films to choose from (black and white of course) with so many different qualities held within each film. On top of that you can then mess around with development to get an even broader set of qualities. My favourite was always Ilford FP4+ developed in Tetenal Neofin Blue on 120 roll film. After this of course you then have a wide choice of papers on which to print and even though the powers that be have effectively ruined printing papers by forcing the removal of heavy metals like cadmium, there are still some fine papers out there.
Lets check out digital shall we..?
Well, effectively you have what the CCD gives you. Yes you can manipulate with software but all that gives you is what the software programmer put into it and you'll always get those people who say that "If I want grain I just add it in Photoshop". Sorry but that is simply not grain. That is a very poor imitation of the real thing. When it comes to printing there are indeed some stunning cotton fibre papers out there on which to present your images but sadly these images have almost zero depth to them in a way that a silver halide print excels. Yes OK, if you want your images to look more like a graphic representation then fine, you'll be happy with that but if you are only interested in quality fine art you're not going to beat a silver halide print.
I guess in a way it depends on whether you are involved in photography because it is convenient or whether you are interested in photography because it is art.
Sorry to bust in on this thread. Just answering a question with a personal view.
;)
Haselsh1
04-12-2018, 10:09
Charging a customer to cover retailer's fees is not allowed but unfortunately, the retailer still pays the card processing company a fee. As I said above, I pay 3% for each and every transaction, not sure what I pay for debit cards but it isn't a "pittance".
When I had my business I paid 2% through HSBC. I thought that was a bloody good deal.
hifi_dave
04-12-2018, 10:33
Like everything else, prices have gone up. I think all processing companies charge very similar fees.
Didn't realise the deck in question has an inbuilt phono stage. I bet that is pretty grim. Can it be bypassed as the one in the Pioneer amp will be loads better, I'd bet any money.
Is it possible that the output from the deck's phono stage is being fed to the amp's phono stage, resulting in double equalisation?
montesquieu
04-12-2018, 12:32
. 3 Cheers to that Sir !
Is it possible that the output from the deck's phono stage is being fed to the amp's phono stage, resulting in double equalisation?
That would me more than just equalisation it would likely overload the phono stage on the amp.
Stryder5
04-12-2018, 12:53
Is it possible that the output from the deck's phono stage is being fed to the amp's phono stage, resulting in double equalisation?
I didn't think the deck had a built in phono stage? Just phono plugs for connecting to amp?
Gary
Update
Having tried a very eclectic variety of records (which are in far better condition than expected having spent many years in the loft) I am much happier with the sound, I'm actually quite liking it in fact, I can't put my finger on it but although overall SQ may not be technically as good as CD there's a naturalness (is that a word?) about it.
Happy bunny now
Glad this is the case Gaz, and Rumours is a funny old one. I've three different pressings that all sound uniquely underwhelming. Considering it's a classic from the golden age of LPs, all the pressings I've heard, apart from certain audiophile re-issues, have sounded recessed, flat and a bit 'meh'. Fast forward to 'Mirage' and you end up with brightness and sibilance (with the 'wrong' cart) that can strip paint off walls.
So much is down to the pressing.
RobbieGong
08-12-2018, 18:35
Glad this is the case Gaz, and Rumours is a funny old one. I've three different pressings that all sound uniquely underwhelming. Considering it's a classic from the golden age of LPs, all the pressings I've heard, apart from certain audiophile re-issues, have sounded recessed, flat and a bit 'meh'. Fast forward to 'Mirage' and you end up with brightness and sibilance (with the 'wrong' cart) that can strip paint off walls.
So much is down to the pressing.
Good point Jason.
The fact that we are playing, listening too, amplifying and hearing recorded music is so often forgotten.
We build these great high end systems to do what they should proeperly and in true audiophile / hifi sense, and by the nature of the beast, means they reveal and present what has been recorded, it's that simple.
Music that has been recorded well will sound as such, on the same hand if the recording has flaws those will be revealed too - Thats true hi-fi in my book.
Problem is some of us want our cake but dont like what's in it and then go round in circles trying to have a system that plays everything sounding completely fab..... :scratch: ;)
Mikeandvan
10-12-2018, 22:02
Glad this is the case Gaz, and Rumours is a funny old one. I've three different pressings that all sound uniquely underwhelming. Considering it's a classic from the golden age of LPs, all the pressings I've heard, apart from certain audiophile re-issues, have sounded recessed, flat and a bit 'meh'. Fast forward to 'Mirage' and you end up with brightness and sibilance (with the 'wrong' cart) that can strip paint off walls.
So much is down to the pressing.
I love playing Rumours on vinyl, one of my fave vinyl spins. Really clear and crisp, I have an original copy.
I pay near enough everything with my debit card.
Bought two light bulbs and a pack of dog treats on Saturday for around four quid and paid via card. That's what it's for!
I seldom use cash, thirty quid lasts me a month. It may be different elsewhere, but I never get refused or charged extra for card payments.
Same here, although I also use cash, but have never been told there was an extra charge for cards, especially these days with 'contactless' payments. The shop Macca was in needs to get with the times!
Marco.
Got the latest issue and it sounds fine to me.
Glad this is the case Gaz, and Rumours is a funny old one. I've three different pressings that all sound uniquely underwhelming. Considering it's a classic from the golden age of LPs, all the pressings I've heard, apart from certain audiophile re-issues, have sounded recessed, flat and a bit 'meh'.
Lol - that was in the 50s and early 60s, not 70s when some of the pressings were truly crap! Much of the blame for that lay at the mastering stage and some of the equipment used in recording studios during that era.
Rumours is a decent album, both musically (and sonically), but certainly not a shining example of "the golden age of LPs":nono:
Marco.
Audio Al
11-12-2018, 06:21
Gary ( Gaz ) see if you can find a 12" single of F Mac this should open up the souds available , see the link
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=fleetwood+mac+vinyl&_dcat=176985&_osacat=0&Record%2520Size=12%2522&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=fleetwood+mac+12+single&_sacat=0
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