View Full Version : What was the judge thinking?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/teen-filmed-trying-to-smash-his-way-into-car-with-zombie-knife-walks-free-a4001831.html
Unbelievable, all the knife crime and murders in London and that happens. Disgraceful
even carrying such a weapon should get you 2 years, far less trying to use it...
'That's not a knife. This is a knife!
He'd done 6 months on remand already, according to the article.
Lord Carmont started handing down 10 and 20 year sentences for holding a knife or razor... cleared up the problem overnight.
nonuffin
28-11-2018, 09:13
I think all judges should learn the true meaning of "justice". Plainly and obviously a thug in the full sense of the word and should have been banged up for even carrying such a weapon, never mind using it during such a trivial incident.
Talking of utter fekin STUPIDITY of the higher order, I read in the paper that a man who raped a young woman and made her pregnant as a result, has been given the right to visit the child by the local council. What planet do these dumb assholes live on? Whoever made that ludicrous decision should be fired immediately. I despair, I really do :steam:
RobbieGong
28-11-2018, 09:21
On the surface it seems daft but a lot has been considered.
He's clearly not had a great upbringing, he's done 6 months in remand already, no one was harmed or injured.
He also now has to stick to the conditions laid down - 2 year suspended sentence, 9 months curfew order, 150 hours of community service and 20 hours of rehabilitation sessions.
Seems fair to me, all considered - I dont sense he's got off lightly.
Btw, with regard to sentences in general, judges dont always get it right and yes some deciisons over the years have been mind boggling :rolleyes:
WESTLOWER
28-11-2018, 11:54
On the surface it seems daft but a lot has been considered.
He's clearly not had a great upbringing, he's done 6 months in remand already, no one was harmed or injured.
He also now has to stick to the conditions laid down - 2 year suspended sentence, 9 months curfew order, 150 hours of community service and 20 hours of rehabilitation sessions.
Seems fair to me, all considered - I dont sense he's got off lightly.
Btw, with regard to sentences in general, judges dont always get it right and yes some deciisons over the years have been mind boggling :rolleyes:
Couldn't disagree with you more. He should have been properly sentenced.
Let's get it right, all that stuff about upbringing, yeah I get it to a degree, but jesus!!! Look at the Video..LOOK!
A few years ago in Haringey, London, on an Unmanned Train station, my son, aged 14 at the time, was mugged by 2 total No Marks, one with a knife as large as that thing in the video, in his desperate terrified attempt to flee them and get to another platform, he jumped down on to the tracks and crossed 4 live tracks, 2 being the fast tracks into london kings X. They still got him, mugged him roughed him up, racially abused him (he is white btw) and thankfully didn't use the knife on him.
With my persistence to get the CCTV from the station, they caught these 2 scumbags. It went to court, my son on a video link. That alone was all a long winded nightmare for months...and Guess what!??... A BIG FAT NOTHING!, because they were 16 made them repay the cost of the phone and got a pat on the head. He is now 21, he changed after all that.
I was dragged up in Brixton, South London in the 70's and 80's, at the height of stop and search and subsequently the boiling point of the community in response to a mess of a police force. So I'm pretty aware of what is what and have seen most things that I really didn't need to.
I'm telling you, NOW it's lawless, no deterrent, no consequences for actions. it's the wild west out there my friends and I prey you do not go through these largly preventable experiences. The yoot do what they want, they know there is nothing waiting for them.
Yes there are loads of problems that gets a young person to that point, absent fathers, lack of care, peer pressure, no support from the local authorities, crap education, no positive role models, fuck all to do as all the clubs have been closed due to £ saving and lack of prospects. etc etc etc
but this behaviour is a breakdown of order, simply, inner cities are a lottery with young peoples safety.
When the evidence is so compelling and the intent was clearly to harm, the stiffest sentence possible should be shown.
There needs to be a deterrent...Sorry, they have no fear.
Rant over and out!
Good rant, it's the idiot middle-class do-gooders who have created this situation. They don't understand any of it because they've never had to spend a day in their lives. Wrapped in cotton wool since birth. But they are so confident that they have all the answers. Wankers.
Firebottle
28-11-2018, 12:33
The moment sentences stopped commanding respect for authority was the day it started to go wrong.
Unfortunately that was a long time ago.
Bleeding heart liberals are a menace.
No point getting tough with these people, they'll only appeal to the European Court and get let off with damages paid!
A friend of mine went to court 3 times for assaulting police officers and never got a custodial. On the second occasion the beak told him 'come up before me again and I'll have no hesitation...'
On the third he's broken one copper's nose by headbutting him and they have a photo of the other copper with a bootprint across his face. But the judge still slung him.
The prisons are full and have been for years. Always makes me laugh when there's been some minor infraction and someone says 'Ooh you should report that to the Police.' They just have no concept of the reality.
even carrying such a weapon should get you 2 years, far less trying to use it...
I agree in principle but exactly how do you define "such a weapon" a large kitchen knife can kill just as effectively and buying cutlery would be awkward if we made carrying any knife in public an absolute offence.
walpurgis
28-11-2018, 17:44
I agree in principle but exactly how do you define "such a weapon".
One that is intended solely to intimidate.
A folding, non-lock blade knives are legal to carry if the blade length does not exceed 7 cm. Possession of a knife can carry a prison sentence of up to 4 years even if it's not used. So, how does someone with a knife that size who uses it, even if he didnt stab anyone get the sentence he gets.
WESTLOWER
28-11-2018, 17:52
A folding, non-lock blade knives are legal to carry if the blade length does not exceed 7 cm. Possession of a knife can carry a prison sentence of up to 4 years even if it's not used. So, how does someone with a knife that size who uses it, even if he didnt stab anyone get the sentence he gets.
Because he has had a tough unfortunate upbringing and he was only 17 at the time.
Which is totally ridiculous.
If that petrified chap in the video hadn’t got out of the car and legged it he would undoubtedly stuck that weapon in him.
He should have gone down, for a long bloody time. I can only hope he was somebody’s wife inside and had a very miserable time.
One that is intended solely to intimidate.
Hmm, yes, but wouldn't you be intimidated by somebody threatening you with a carving knife or bread knife?
Doing 6 months prison isn't really getting off lightly in the greater scheme of things.
He got knocked off his bike by someone who was driving without due care and attention and lost his temper, I think most people would have lost the plot in that situation. So he was carrying a ridiculous knife but he didn't use it so he did six months for carrying a knife. Which I suspect is quite a lot compared to most people caught possessing an illegal weapon regardless of the max sentence you could get in theory.
It's the knife that gets me. The only way you would buy a knife like that would be to impress other equally daft youths. For practical purposes I'd go for something much smaller like a commando dagger. Slip it up your sleeve you can drop it down and do someone with it before they know what's going on. And if the rozzers are onto you it's easier to dispose of without them spotting it.
WESTLOWER
28-11-2018, 18:02
Hmm, yes, but wouldn't you be intimidated by somebody threatening you with a carving knife or bread knife?
If you pull a bread or carving knife on someone in the street, you should go down .. simple.
All this bullshit at what constitutes a real knife is nuts. I’m sure any knife carried with intention of being used on a human
Is going to cause pretty catastrophic injuries.
My wife used to be an A&E nurse, we the public, only hear about the fatalities..it’s an epidemic amongst our young people.
It needs to be sorted NOW with 1 strike and you are out action.
walpurgis
28-11-2018, 18:04
Hmm, yes, but wouldn't you be intimidated by somebody threatening you with a carving knife or bread knife?
You asked the question, I replied. Did you want my opinion on kitchen implements too?
A folding, non-lock blade knives are legal to carry if the blade length does not exceed 7 cm. Possession of a knife can carry a prison sentence of up to 4 years even if it's not used. So, how does someone with a knife that size who uses it, even if he didnt stab anyone get the sentence he gets.
The law says "without reasonable excuse or lawful authority"
This a true story.
A known criminal with convictions for robbery and violence was stop and searched by police and was found to be possession of a lock knife, he was arrested and in interview said he had found the knife 10 minutes before and was on his way to the police station to hand it in (he was near a police station and walking in that direction)
On CPS advice he was released without charge as he had provided a reasonable excuse which could not be disproved.
So where does that leave us?
We can't make carrying any kind of knife an absolute offence however the "reasonable excuse" is easily exploited.
Tricky one
WESTLOWER
28-11-2018, 18:07
Doing 6 months prison isn't really getting off lightly in the greater scheme of things.
He got knocked off his bike by someone who was driving without due care and attention and lost his temper, I think most people would have lost the plot in that situation. So he was carrying a ridiculous knife but he didn't use it so he did six months for carrying a knife. Which I suspect is quite a lot compared to most people caught possessing an illegal weapon regardless of the max sentence you could get in theory.
It's the knife that gets me. The only way you would buy a knife like that would be to impress other equally daft youths. For practical purposes I'd go for something much smaller like a commando dagger. Slip it up your sleeve you can drop it down and do someone with it before they know what's going on. And if the rozzers are onto you it's easier to dispose of without them spotting it.
That’s not the way I saw this video. The geezer (wanker) with the blade was intimidating the guy in the car before it pulled out to get away!? Watch it again. It’s only a desperate attempt to flee that he catches the bike
That’s not the way I saw this video. The geezer (wanker) with the blade was intimidating the guy in the car before it pulled out to get away!? Watch it again. It’s only a desperate attempt to flee that he catches the bike
Oh right I didn't watch the video because it wouldn't play for me. But the account in the text of the article differs in that it implies the fracas started because the bloke pulled out from a parking spot and collided with the cyclist.
I agree that does put a different complexion on it.
Pigmy Pony
28-11-2018, 19:32
The law says "without reasonable excuse or lawful authority"
This a true story.
A known criminal with convictions for robbery and violence was stop and searched by police and was found to be possession of a lock knife, he was arrested and in interview said he had found the knife 10 minutes before and was on his way to the police station to hand it in (he was near a police station and walking in that direction)
On CPS advice he was released without charge as he had provided a reasonable excuse which could not be disproved.
So where does that leave us?
We can't make carrying any kind of knife an absolute offence however the "reasonable excuse" is easily exploited.
Tricky one
So these scumbags will be ok to go around with a ten inch breadknife so long as they also carry a baguette and a chopping board.
You could walk around with a chainsaw as long as you were also carrying a log. Which wouldn't be too hard, you could put it in a back pack.
A chainsaw beats a knife as any video game will show.
Pigmy Pony
28-11-2018, 20:04
You could walk around with a chainsaw as long as you were also carrying a log. Which wouldn't be too hard, you could put it in a back pack.
A chainsaw beats a knife as any video game will show.
The log would probably constitute an offensive weapon unless you could persuade the judge you were on your way to a bonfire.
You're on your way to somewhere deserted where you can cut the log without anyone complaining about the noise of the chainsaw.
walpurgis
28-11-2018, 20:17
The log would probably constitute an offensive weapon unless you could persuade the judge you were on your way to a bonfire.
Ah, but you could carry a flamethrower too and argue that you were on your way to light it.
Pigmy Pony
28-11-2018, 20:39
And the glass milk bottle full of petrol with a rag sticking out is just a refill in case the chainsaw runs out.
Sherwood
28-11-2018, 20:58
Frankly, the type of knife is not the issue. A screwdriver or other sharp object can kill too. The issue is that this young guy lost control and drew a weapon with the intention to do serious damage to another human. That makes him a danger to society. He may have had a bad upbringing but the Judge saw fit to return him to his family home so it can't be that bad.
There is no way that he should escape a custodial sentence. No consequences for what could have been a murder!
Frankly, the type of knife is not the issue. A screwdriver or other sharp object can kill too. The issue is that this young guy lost control and drew a weapon with the intention to do serious damage to another human. That makes him a danger to society. He may have had a bad upbringing but the Judge saw fit to return him to his family home so it can't be that bad.
There is no way that he should escape a custodial sentence. No consequences for what could have been a murder!
Precisely.
Drink drivers don't escape bans because they didn't actually crash and/or injure anybody, it's a deterrent to prevent what could happen.
If he had got the car door open that could easily have been murder
mad-moon
28-11-2018, 23:41
I wonder what would have happened to the driver of the car...if the guy fell off his bike on to his own knife and was killed??
Pigmy Pony
29-11-2018, 07:27
When I was a kid we all carried sheath knives on our belts, but they were an 'outdoor toy' to us, an never thought of as a weapon (although we could use them to carve points onto throwing arrows and some wicked looking spears). Never did anyone come to harm (at least not intentionally, I did once put a nice groove in my skull through using an axe as a hammer, and I once accidentally shot my brother in the face with an air pistol). All good clean fun.
Point is, these days weapons are being carried to be used as weapons, and it shouldn't be down to the police to prove intent - this should be the assumption in every case, and the courts shouldn't be frightened to hand down harsh sentences.
Also, if the prisons were made less like a 'home from home', sentences could be shorter but with the same deterrent value. Short sharp shock.
WESTLOWER
29-11-2018, 08:30
I wonder what would have happened to the driver of the car...if the guy fell off his bike on to his own knife and was killed??
I don’t understand what you mean. As discussed earlier, this isn’t a road traffic incident!
That yoot was intimidating/ trying to get to that guy in the car BEFORE he pulled out and tried to get away. The text in the report is incorrect, watch the first couple of seconds of the clip. The way it’s been cut looks at first glance like this driver has pulled out on the cyclist and then .... but it’s not the case. That’s why the scrotums mates come running along to join the attack at the end of the video. Shane he didn’t run the bell end over.
mad-moon
29-11-2018, 12:06
I still wonder what would happen to the driver, regardless of what the incident was...if that young hoodlum had fell onto his knife and died....clearley he is a thug and should be locked up for a lot of years. As the title says...what the f__k was that dopey judge thinking about? It's frightening
When I was a kid we all carried sheath knives on our belts, but they were an 'outdoor toy' to us, an never thought of as a weapon (although we could use them to carve points onto throwing arrows and some wicked looking spears). Never did anyone come to harm (at least not intentionally, I did once put a nice groove in my skull through using an axe as a hammer, and I once accidentally shot my brother in the face with an air pistol). All good clean fun.
Point is, these days weapons are being carried to be used as weapons, and it shouldn't be down to the police to prove intent - this should be the assumption in every case, and the courts shouldn't be frightened to hand down harsh sentences.
Also, if the prisons were made less like a 'home from home', sentences could be shorter but with the same deterrent value. Short sharp shock.
I'm playing devil's advocate here but laws are there to protect the innocent as well as punish the guilty.
It must be proved beyond reasonable doubt that an implement, be it any type of type of knife or bladed article, is being carried to use as a weapon.
If the starting point is the assumption that it is being carried to be used as a weapon how do you get knives home from a shop? Even tradesmen's or DIYers tools would leave them susceptible to arrest and having to prove themselves innocent. Remember that Police are discouraged from using common sense or discretion these days in order to avoid upsetting certain members of society. Common sense suggests that a middle aged woman in office attire out on her lunch break is unlikely to use the scissors in her handbag as a weapon, but what about a 17 year old male in a hoody at 2am? Where do you draw the line?
. Remember that Police are discouraged from using common sense or discretion these days in order to avoid upsetting certain members of society.
There's the problem right there.
mad-moon
29-11-2018, 12:50
These days...it's all turned arse about face....You are guilty until proved innocent...
There's the problem right there.
Yes indeed.
It's a fact that the vast majority of stabbing victims belong the one ethnic group that the police are regularly criticised for stopping and searching too often.
WESTLOWER
29-11-2018, 13:34
Yes indeed.
It's a fact that the vast majority of stabbing victims belong the one ethnic group that the police are regularly criticised for stopping and searching too often.
The sus law ("suspected person"), Stop and Search in the 70s and 80s were badly abused by the then largely racist Met. This caused a lot of anger in my own community at the time.
It culminated in the Brixton riots, April 1981. If you were not stopped twice a day, basically for being Black, then it's hard to comment on what anger this law caused.
But things have changed. We now have unprecedented levels of Knife violence on the streets of Inner city Britain. Stop and search needs to be implemented correctly in 2018.
I believe, The Police now can't stop someone without using the body Cam. This is obviously to protect both Police and the public. So what's the Issue with the revised SUS law.
Our Police have learned from the mistakes of the past.
It's a delicate issue, especially in the Black community, where you are absolutely right, there is a problem with young men taking violence to new levels, both Knife and Gun.
The issues in these communities run very deep. For decades, the issue of absent fathers, not just in the Black Community, has not been addressed properly, young men failing in education, has not been addressed properly.
When you have youth, with little prospects, little support from home or school, no positive father figures...then is it a surprise they have no fear of consequences?!
They see it and want it, temptation it's rammed down their throats on every advert board and TV ad, they are told you are nothing without the latest this and that.
Stop pussy footing around the subject, get into the schools, early, educate about knife crime, gangs etc, give the youth something to do. Invest in sports and clubs that will channel energy. Get into the communities and give them the power to tackle the root issues that feed these problems, amongst their own people.
But for now, get stopping and get searching. Needs must!
nonuffin
29-11-2018, 15:11
The case has mow been referred to the Attorney General to review the sentence
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6441679/Attorney-General-reviews-sentence-Drill-rapper-zombie-knife-thug.html
mad-moon
29-11-2018, 15:56
The case has mow been referred to the Attorney General to review the sentence
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6441679/Attorney-General-reviews-sentence-Drill-rapper-zombie-knife-thug.html
Excellent....if there is any justice out there...this lunatic will be put behind bars..
Pigmy Pony
29-11-2018, 22:19
The majority of crimes committed are drugs related, from the junkie shop lifting to help finance his habit, to gangs using knives and guns to protect their turf. It's been said before but I'll say it again: Legalise drugs, and much of this problem will go away.
Of course there will always be those scumbags who'll find some other criminal means of work dodging, but it will still be more manageable.
The majority of crimes committed are drugs related
Hugely incorrect, unless you are describing a particular (small) urban area? Nationally that statement is false and frankly demonises anyone who for whatever reason may use an illegal substance.
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Pigmy Pony
30-11-2018, 07:55
My suggestion is not intended to demonise or even deprive drug users, but to remove the drug dealers from the equation. If the supply and regulation of drugs were taken out of their hands, the crimes associated with the getting of funds to feed their habit could be greatly reduced, as would be the chances of accidental overdose (I can think of 5 or 6 people from my school days who are no longer with us because of this).
Or perhaps you would prefer to keep the supply and use of drugs 'underground'. Bit like America's prohibition. How did that work out?
Always happy to be educated on things, though. Just out of curiosity, where is the majority of crime?
My suggestion is not intended to demonise or even deprive drug users, but to remove the drug dealers from the equation. If the supply and regulation of drugs were taken out of their hands, the crimes associated with the getting of funds to feed their habit could be greatly reduced, as would be the chances of accidental overdose (I can think of 5 or 6 people from my school days who are no longer with us because of this).
Or perhaps you would prefer to keep the supply and use of drugs 'underground'. Bit like America's prohibition. How did that work out?
Always happy to be educated on things, though. Just out of curiosity, where is the majority of crime?
You are so right, a large part of violent crime is gang violence, and gangs sell drugs to make money. Sell the drugs at the corner store, and those gangs have no way to raise money, and nothing to fight about.
Russell
They would still have loan sharking, extortion, prostitution, gambling (where that is illegal) robbery and theft.
Not that I disagree with legalisation of drugs, or at least de-criminalizing personal possession and putting heroin back on prescription.
Just out of curiosity, where is the majority of crime?
Not entirely sure what question you're asking there, where do you mean, the UK? Too ambiguous and not really related to what I was saying, which was disagreeing that the majority of crime is drug related. Certainly in the UK it isn't - not yet anyway.
As to 'where is the majority of crime', that's a different question and I've no idea, Mexico maybe?
If you are really interested, here's a good place to start Crime in England and Wales: year ending March 2018 (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2018#overview-of-crime)
walpurgis
30-11-2018, 15:31
As to 'where is the majority of crime', that's a different question and I've no idea, Mexico maybe?
That can't be answered, as what constitutes a crime is very different in other countries. Even what we call murder is legal elsewhere.
Although still to high, attempted murder/serious assault here is still fairly low in comparison to total crime here and in comparison to say the US... motoring offences are probably the highest area here....(an easy target of course)
That can't be answered, as what constitutes a crime is very different in other countries. Even what we call murder is legal elsewhere.
Exactly, an impossible question to answer without being specific about what you are actually asking.
Unlike 'where is the majority of crime in Chicago?', which is probably the south side, at least that's what folk tell me and I must admit to feeling uneasy going south of 63rd around Englewood. But that's another topic and it's time for some Miles Davis ;)
Sherwood
30-11-2018, 16:56
Excellent....if there is any justice out there...this lunatic will be put behind bars..
I'd put him back on his bike on a bank holiday with the requirement that he complete one lap of the M25! :D
Pigmy Pony
30-11-2018, 17:46
Not entirely sure what question you're asking there, where do you mean, the UK? Too ambiguous and not really related to what I was saying, which was disagreeing that the majority of crime is drug related. Certainly in the UK it isn't - not yet anyway.
As to 'where is the majority of crime', that's a different question and I've no idea, Mexico maybe?
If you are really interested, here's a good place to start Crime in England and Wales: year ending March 2018 (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2018#overview-of-crime)
My apologies, I'm clearly not being clear enough. I said the majority of crimes are drug related, you said that's hugely incorrect, I asked what then are the majority of crimes related to. As this thread seems to be mostly about knife and gun crime in the UK, I really wasn't expecting Mexico to form any part of the subject discussed.
Just so we're clear: as most of the crimes IN THE UK aren't drug related, what are they related to? I'm always happy to be corrected, it's a good way to learn stuff.
Sorry if I'm going on a bit, but a bus with the word PEDANTIC emblazoned on it just trundled past, and I decided to hop aboard :)
I'll go away now and read the link you posted.
I'd put him back on his bike on a bank holiday with the requirement that he complete one lap of the M25! :D
He'll need a bigger knife.
walpurgis
30-11-2018, 18:59
He'll need a bigger knife.
I expect he's intent on moving up in the world and asking about for a gun by now.
Pigmy Pony
30-11-2018, 19:56
I expect he's intent on moving up in the world and asking about for a gun by now.
150 hours spent in the graffiti cleaning club should turn up something.
Couldn't disagree with you more. He should have been properly sentenced.
Let's get it right, all that stuff about upbringing, yeah I get it to a degree, but jesus!!! Look at the Video..LOOK!
A few years ago in Haringey, London, on an Unmanned Train station, my son, aged 14 at the time, was mugged by 2 total No Marks, one with a knife as large as that thing in the video, in his desperate terrified attempt to flee them and get to another platform, he jumped down on to the tracks and crossed 4 live tracks, 2 being the fast tracks into london kings X. They still got him, mugged him roughed him up, racially abused him (he is white btw) and thankfully didn't use the knife on him.
With my persistence to get the CCTV from the station, they caught these 2 scumbags. It went to court, my son on a video link. That alone was all a long winded nightmare for months...and Guess what!??... A BIG FAT NOTHING!, because they were 16 made them repay the cost of the phone and got a pat on the head. He is now 21, he changed after all that.
I was dragged up in Brixton, South London in the 70's and 80's, at the height of stop and search and subsequently the boiling point of the community in response to a mess of a police force. So I'm pretty aware of what is what and have seen most things that I really didn't need to.
I'm telling you, NOW it's lawless, no deterrent, no consequences for actions. it's the wild west out there my friends and I prey you do not go through these largly preventable experiences. The yoot do what they want, they know there is nothing waiting for them.
Yes there are loads of problems that gets a young person to that point, absent fathers, lack of care, peer pressure, no support from the local authorities, crap education, no positive role models, fuck all to do as all the clubs have been closed due to £ saving and lack of prospects. etc etc etc
but this behaviour is a breakdown of order, simply, inner cities are a lottery with young peoples safety.
When the evidence is so compelling and the intent was clearly to harm, the stiffest sentence possible should be shown.
There needs to be a deterrent...Sorry, they have no fear.
Rant over and out!
Well said
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Get yer trousers on son Your Nicked !
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