View Full Version : Old, Deaf, Senile, Better Hi-Fi, or all of the above?
Do you ever put on an album you used to play a lot, but haven't for a while and just not recognise parts of it?
After putting my system back together after a rebuild, I put on Supertramp's Breakfast in America on, and the first couple of tracks I hardly recognised. I used to listen to it all the time in the 90s, but it may be a few years since I put it on. The music sounds different, just because my Hi-Fi is much more revealing than the system I had when I was a student and then finally left university.
Tracks I've always loved like Take the Long Way Home just sound more "Live" and there's much more detail than I remember. But some tracks I'd not have recognised as coming from this album. "Gone Holiday" for example.
Perhaps I've finally got old enough to forget some music. Perhaps when I was younger I had a far smaller music collection so the same albums got played over and over. So there was much less chance that an album would sit unplayed for a few years.
So am I alone? Are you sometimes surprised by the content of albums you've owned for a long time?
Do you ever put on an album you used to play a lot, but haven't for a while and just not recognise parts of it?
After putting my system back together after a rebuild, I put on Supertramp's Breakfast in America on, and the first couple of tracks I hardly recognised. I used to listen to it all the time in the 90s, but it may be a few years since I put it on. The music sounds different, just because my Hi-Fi is much more revealing than the system I had when I was a student and then finally left university.
Tracks I've always loved like Take the Long Way Home just sound more "Live" and there's much more detail than I remember. But some tracks I'd not have recognised as coming from this album. "Gone Holiday" for example.
Perhaps I've finally got old enough to forget some music. Perhaps when I was younger I had a far smaller music collection so the same albums got played over and over. So there was much less chance that an album would sit unplayed for a few years.
So am I alone? Are you sometimes surprised by the content of albums you've owned for a long time?
As your system gets better if digs more deeply into the recording.
AJSki2fly
24-11-2018, 18:10
Do you ever put on an album you used to play a lot, but haven't for a while and just not recognise parts of it?
So am I alone? Are you sometimes surprised by the content of albums you've owned for a long time?
I put on Lone Star - Firing On All Six the other day, a mint copy I was very lucky to pick up cheaply. I always liked the album when in my teens, typical hard rock, but what I had not appreciated at the time was just how good some of the vocals are and the construction of the songs. The bass and organ playing are very impressive on certain tracks as is the lead/rhythm guitar. Another that took me by surprise when I played it after upgrading my hifi is 801 - Live, if you don't know it then look it up, in fact I must have another listen.
Do you ever put on an album you used to play a lot, but haven't for a while and just not recognise parts of it?
Errr...No. But I look in the mirror every morning and think...who'se that old geezer staring back at me...frightening!
Recently I have gone balanced from the Dig In and Outs of my Dac and....blimey...didn't know that was on there.
Err.... no.... pretty much the opposite in fact.
I'm wondering whether there might be a simpler explanation. Breakfast in America was remastered in 2002. I wonder is the recording I'm listening to is the remastered version. I would have listened to the original version.
I've bought a second-hand hard drive recently and the album was on that - so not my recording. Unfortunately, I'm struggling to find my original copy of the album. More digging tomorrow morning should unearth it.
Stratmangler
24-11-2018, 19:55
Tracks I've always loved like Take the Long Way Home just sound more "Live" and there's much more detail than I remember. But some tracks I'd not have recognised as coming from this album. "Gone Holiday" for example
The most common form of processing when a CD is remastered is to compress the signal before it hits the ADC.
Most of the time it's done sympathetically, so the result is an increase in perceived detail.
Remember that compression boosts a low level signal to a higher level signal, and in doing so does not necessarily boost the overall output level.
A 1dB or 2dB lift in low level signal would bring hitherto unheard detail to your attention.
jandl100
24-11-2018, 20:00
Err.... no.... pretty much the opposite in fact.
:scratch:
What's the opposite of not recognising what's on an album?
Really really recognising it?
The time gap between last playing something, and the latest playing may be large, and the development of our systems considerable as a result.
Better speakers are less likely to mask detail, and also perhaps because of an exaggerated band also mask something. I am in a position in which I am at times wondering what is wrong with my new speakers because of things I hear which are errors in the recording process.
This was so with my last pair, of my own design, also, but not to the same extent.
My hearing is also a little tricky at times, especially when I'm tired.
I listened to Brothers in Arms a few years ago on the Beolab 'Daleks', and the intro was unrecognisable compared with that on my own ones at that time, and I had to confirm that it was the same track.
A few years back now I heard a friend's budget (£40 Richer Sounds) Marantz cd player give an almost unrecognisable rendition of something. I forget what the tune was now but it mangled it so badly I had to play it again just to make sure I wasn't hearing things. It died soon after so not sure if it was faulty or just inherently weird. It wasn't distorted or skipping or anything like that. It was a bit like that Eric Morecambe joke 'I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.'
:scratch:
What's the opposite of not recognising what's on an album?
Really really recognising it?
Hearing it too many times so you're bored as soon as the first note of the first track starts. I got like that with Donald Fagen's 'Nightfly'. I played it to death for a couple of years, now I can't bear to listen to it.
Depends on the time line. Back in the day of my father's Quad 33/303 and Quad ESL's and Ortophon SPU and Garrard 301 I thought that I knew every nuance of some albums. Nowadays, played on my present kit, those very same pressings reveal a whole new sound with instruments that I never heard before. One is a triangle buried deep within the tympani stage right rear, and the other is a bass kettle drum beneath the percussion section. As long as my ears are up to the task, better kit will always make familiar recordings sound "fresh."
"Errr...No. But I look in the mirror every morning and think...who'se that old geezer staring back at me...frightening!"
Quite the opposite to me Puffin, I always think I look more handsome and not a day older. :)
Back on subject, yes I have forgotten a particular song, just a walk down Alzheimer's Avenue.
I have a fair few albums I bought , listened to once then have hardly ever played in 40 years .
Until now , I generally have to put them on 'when I,m soldering or fiddling with headshells or TT's . ' Then it sinks in and the next time i hear it , I probably might like it and it'll grow on me !!
The stuff I play all the time just hits the spot anyway !
I have a fullish collection of Man albums and Deke Leonard too ,for example , and spent this afternoon reliving Iceberg ,by Deke (helped by Dave Edmunds)
I actually remembered them all ,but especially the tracks I didnt like !!
Then I put my brother in laws copy of Brothers In Arms (hes forgotten he left it here !!:eyebrows:) ,and that was cool cool cool .
Yet back in the day I shied away from it - DOH
Anyroad - whats your name again ?
Pigmy Pony
26-11-2018, 07:25
Sometimes I go to play a record or CD, only to find I don't actually have a copy of it. Conversely, I have bought quite a few albums then found I already have a copy. My collection really isn't very large, but I've probably got more albums than brain cells.
One day I'll get round to posting said titles on here, assuming AOS has any members with similarly poor taste.
Occasionally I'll revisit something I bought 30 or more years ago and didn't care for, only to find I still don't like it. I should probably offload those too.
willbewill
26-11-2018, 07:29
I put on Lone Star - Firing On All Six the other day, a mint copy I was very lucky to pick up cheaply. I always liked the album when in my teens, typical hard rock, but what I had not appreciated at the time was just how good some of the vocals are and the construction of the songs. The bass and organ playing are very impressive on certain tracks as is the lead/rhythm guitar. Another that took me by surprise when I played it after upgrading my hifi is 801 - Live, if you don't know it then look it up, in fact I must have another listen.Your post brought back memories of Paul Chapman playing in the New Moon Club in Cardiff with one of his earlier bands 'Rain', pre 'Skid Row'. Great guitarist.
From Anto;
"Then I put my brother in laws copy of Brothers In Arms (hes forgotten he left it here !!) ,and that was cool cool cool .
Yet back in the day I shied away from it - DOH"
That had a reputation for being toppy, how do you find it?
dave2010
26-11-2018, 15:46
The most common form of processing when a CD is remastered is to compress the signal before it hits the ADC.
Most of the time it's done sympathetically, so the result is an increase in perceived detail.
Remember that compression boosts a low level signal to a higher level signal, and in doing so does not necessarily boost the overall output level.
A 1dB or 2dB lift in low level signal would bring hitherto unheard detail to your attention.Is that so? Doesn't seem to make sense for most, at least working from LPs as they have a smaller dynamic range. Do you mean from the master tapes - if they're still available, or digital masters? In that case compression might be applied to make the live dynamic range manageable, but that would probably have been done to a greater extent for the LPs.
AJSki2fly
26-11-2018, 16:05
I put on Lone Star - Firing On All Six the other day, a mint copy I was very lucky to pick up cheaply. I always liked the album when in my teens, typical hard rock, but what I had not appreciated at the time was just how good some of the vocals are and the construction of the songs. The bass and organ playing are very impressive on certain tracks as is the lead/rhythm guitar. Another that took me by surprise when I played it after upgrading my hifi is 801 - Live, if you don't know it then look it up, in fact I must have another listen.
Your post brought back memories of Paul Chapman playing in the New Moon Club in Cardiff with one of his earlier bands 'Rain', pre 'Skid Row'. Great guitarist.
Another blast from the past, a Man off shoot I think?
https://img.discogs.com/4pVIa0eS0QsTEb8rBoV7n4A7GZ8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():qualit y(90)/discogs-images/R-2237355-1271564981.jpeg.jpg
willbewill
26-11-2018, 16:06
Another blast from the past, a Man off shoot I think?
https://img.discogs.com/4pVIa0eS0QsTEb8rBoV7n4A7GZ8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():qualit y(90)/discogs-images/R-2237355-1271564981.jpeg.jpg
Yeah Neutrons were excellent, love Black Hole Star
Sometimes I go to play a record or CD, only to find I don't actually have a copy of it. Conversely, I have bought quite a few albums then found I already have a copy. My collection really isn't very large, but I've probably got more albums than brain cells.
One day I'll get round to posting said titles on here, assuming AOS has any members with similarly poor taste.
Occasionally I'll revisit something I bought 30 or more years ago and didn't care for, only to find I still don't like it. I should probably offload those too.
There have been no end of times when I have bought a CD from a charity shop only to find that I have it already! Conversely there have been times when I have passed over on a CD or record thinking I have it in my collection, only to find that I do not have a copy, and when I return to the shop the copy has been sold! :doh:
Even my partner seems to have a better idea of what I have in my collection.
AJSki2fly
26-11-2018, 16:15
There have been no end of times when I have bought a CD from a charity shop only to find that I have it already! Conversely there have been times when I have passed over on a CD or record thinking I have it in my collection, only to find that I do not have a copy, and when I return to the shop the copy has been sold! :doh:
Even my partner seems to have a better idea of what I have in my collection.
What you need is https://www.collectorz.com, there is a phone app for iPhone or other Smart phones and you can scan the barcodes to enter you collection, then when you're out and about you can check what you have. Alternatively there is Discogs which is free and you can put up your collection on it as well and access it through a web browser.
Is that so? Doesn't seem to make sense for most, at least working from LPs as they have a smaller dynamic range. Do you mean from the master tapes - if they're still available, or digital masters? In that case compression might be applied to make the live dynamic range manageable, but that would probably have been done to a greater extent for the LPs.
Regrettably applying shedload of compression is what a lot of artists choose to do these days. The only reason it isn't as bad on LP is because you can't physically add as much compression due to the limitations of the medium. You can still add enough to make it sound rubbish on a decent system, though.
walpurgis
26-11-2018, 16:29
Another blast from the past, a Man off shoot I think?
https://img.discogs.com/4pVIa0eS0QsTEb8rBoV7n4A7GZ8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():qualit y(90)/discogs-images/R-2237355-1271564981.jpeg.jpg
That's reminded me. I have the LP somewhere, I'd totally forgotten. Might dig it out!
Stratmangler
26-11-2018, 17:35
Is that so? Doesn't seem to make sense for most, at least working from LPs as they have a smaller dynamic range. Do you mean from the master tapes - if they're still available, or digital masters? In that case compression might be applied to make the live dynamic range manageable, but that would probably have been done to a greater extent for the LPs.
Yes, it is so.
And it's using the best master version available.
A mastering engineer wouldn't be working from a vinyl source unless (a) there wasn't anything else available, or (b) they'd been asked to do it. The early King Crimson LPs remastered by Steven Wilson came with a download of a flat recording from original LPs from Robert Fripp's own personal archive. Fripp never played them.
If you listen to a series of CD releases that have been remastered several times you'll notice the major difference between an early CD release and a recent CD release is that the later release has more apparent detail in the quieter bits.
That's simply because the noise floor has been pushed upwards in the analogue domain, before it hits the ADC.
From Anto;
"Then I put my brother in laws copy of Brothers In Arms (hes forgotten he left it here !!) ,and that was cool cool cool .
Yet back in the day I shied away from it - DOH"
That had a reputation for being toppy, how do you find it?
I take it that means too much treble ?? :scratch: It certainly didnt because the Rel Q50 was turned up high (everyone was out ) and I loved it !!:cool:
I always like lots of treble , I cant fathom how some people like stuff that seems as if it being listened to under an owd blanket
I have quite a few of my bro inlaws albums , despite me giving him a deck and amp /speakers ,he doesnt get around to firing them up!!
Suzanne Vega , Stevie Nicks , Fergal Sharkey, and a lot of Beatles , bit of Hendrix!
AJSki2fly
26-11-2018, 17:55
That's reminded me. I have the LP somewhere, I'd totally forgotten. Might dig it out!
Don’t forget to dig out the Budgie and Groundhog ones to, and of course any Pink Fairies [emoji41]
Stratmangler
26-11-2018, 20:01
Regrettably applying shedload of compression is what a lot of artists choose to do these days. The only reason it isn't as bad on LP is because you can't physically add as much compression due to the limitations of the medium. You can still add enough to make it sound rubbish on a decent system, though.
It helps if you actually have some understanding of compression and how it's applied.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oOmX3JHwtE&t=983s
It helps if you actually have some understanding of compression and how it's applied.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oOmX3JHwtE&t=983s
Yes I know all that. I'm talking about compression in mastering. Not in recording. And yes, I know you ideally need to use some compression in mastering.
Pigmy Pony
26-11-2018, 20:22
Is that so? Doesn't seem to make sense for most, at least working from LPs as they have a smaller dynamic range. Do you mean from the master tapes - if they're still available, or digital masters? In that case compression might be applied to make the live dynamic range manageable, but that would probably have been done to a greater extent for the LPs.
My understanding is that compression wouldn't be applied to 'make the dynamic range more manageable', rather to make the music louder overall and more attention grabbing when played alongside other stuff. Google "Loudness Wars" for more info. The result would usually be pretty poor from a SQ point of view (Oasis' What's The Story being a famous example).
You get compression applied in mastering because firstly it gets rid of the 'raw' feel and makes it all sound a bit more polished.
Secondly if you have too little compression you will turn it up to hear the quiet bits and then the crescendos will blow your head off so your turning it down again. No-one want's to sit through a record turning the volume up and down all the time.
Thirdly people may want to listen in the car or on the bus or train where there is a lot of noise. Again they won't be able to hear the quiet bits too well without turning it up. So you compress a bit more to account for that.
Fourth - 'The Loudness Wars' - you want your sound to sound strong on crappy playback devices like car radios, portable radios, it needs to punch out to attract attention (just having good music is not enough, apparently) so you apply as much compression as possible.
So too much is bad, too little may also be undesirable. I'm oversimplifying of course, this brief article gives an idea of how much is really involved https://www.waves.com/8-tips-for-compression-in-mastering
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