View Full Version : To subwoofer or not...?
Haselsh1
19-11-2018, 11:01
Hello you lot. Most of you know that our current system is based around a Cambridge CXC CD transport into an Audiolab MDAC. Preamp is a Prima Luna Prologue Three while the power amp is a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium. Loudspeakers are Spendor S3/5R2's. Now the sound we are currently getting from this is one of the most natural and realistic we have ever owned but it excels mainly on jazz and vocal. Yes OK, we do listen to a lot of this kind of music but maybe 70% of our listening is electronic mainly by the likes of Shpongle and Eat Static. This is where you guys come in. The Spendor's lack bottom end as you would expect and that lowest bit of depth is missing. Would a small secondhand sub make things OK..? Or, would it just completely bugger it all up. I used to sell REL subs back in the day so I am aware of how to set these bloody awkward things up but given that our little cottage is exactly that, little, is there any point...?
Cheers guys.
wee tee cee
19-11-2018, 11:14
Its difficult to get a sub to intergrate, tried it with 57s and my SP1s....couldn't get it to work.
as a possible alternative have you considered supertweeters?
Dont ask me why but they improve the bass, my son uses them on his frugels to great effect.
Unless you are very lucky, to integrate a sub with your main speakers for music you will need some form of sub eq and crossover, which will likely work out more expensive then the sub. You could always buy a cheap av amp with eq/crossover built in to listen to bass heavy music, but even then you will probably need separate eq for the sub and a speaker switch.
Hello you lot. Most of you know that our current system is based around a Cambridge CXC CD transport into an Audiolab MDAC. Preamp is a Prima Luna Prologue Three while the power amp is a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium. Loudspeakers are Spendor S3/5R2's. Now the sound we are currently getting from this is one of the most natural and realistic we have ever owned but it excels mainly on jazz and vocal. Yes OK, we do listen to a lot of this kind of music but maybe 70% of our listening is electronic mainly by the likes of Shpongle and Eat Static. This is where you guys come in. The Spendor's lack bottom end as you would expect and that lowest bit of depth is missing. Would a small secondhand sub make things OK..? Or, would it just completely bugger it all up. I used to sell REL subs back in the day so I am aware of how to set these bloody awkward things up but given that our little cottage is exactly that, little, is there any point...?
Cheers guys.
I’ve had a few subs over the years and have had results from hopeless to reasonable. How well a sub works depends very much on the room and where in the room you can place it to avoid exciting the inevitable standing waves. I’ve probably spent the best part of 40 years trying to get a perfectly balanced and extended bass in my living room.
Imo a sub is no substitute for a decent pair of floor standing speakers on their own, I’ve tried quite a few with varying degrees of success, I’ve recently finally got it right to my satisfaction with a pair of Q Acoustics Concept 40s which are definitely here for the duration.
If you think you want to try a sub I’d suggest you try a relatively small one, the most successful attempt I had to get a good sound with a sub was with a BK Gemini 2, it has a light 10” cone with good speed and decent extension and an infinitely variable filter frequency rather than a stepped one which is more versatile, cab is not too big so not an eyesore and there are loads of finishes to suit your decor.
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jandl100
19-11-2018, 12:29
Subs can work well, I have 2 smallish Jamo SW200 (8 inch drivers, 150W) which integrate well with my rather bass light Podium speakers.
Well worth a try imo.
Stryder5
19-11-2018, 13:13
I have found that using the high level inputs is vastly superior to low level.
Gary
Haselsh1
19-11-2018, 13:20
Thanks guys. I was always of the opinion that subs and equalisers were shite and what was really needed were floorstanders. Just about every time I have used stand mount nearfields I have ended up back with floorstanders but this room is just not big enough. I'll give it a think.
By the way though, a sub would not be needed for all listening only the electronic stuff and then just to fill in the lowest sounds.
By the way though, a sub would not be needed for all listening only the electronic stuff and then just to fill in the lowest sounds.
Best bet, try a second hand sub connected to the high level inputs, you might get lucky.
Shaun, I've been mulling over this same question for about a year now. Similar kind of situation as you -- small room, stand mount speakers (KEF Ref. 103.2), hardwood suspended floor, etc. Given all the potential pitfalls of adding a sub in this room (esp. potentially boomy bass from being relegated to the corners of the room....that WAF thing :) ) I have been hesitant to pull the trigger on this. I decided that the best way to go, for now, was to optimize the other components for best bass response, and also deal with the speaker-stand-floor interface, and then see if more was needed. This has yielded some significant improvements, esp. having the CD player modded with new discrete op amps and other tweaks, adding better interconnects and speaker cables, and creating a more solid connection between speakers and stands, and stands to floor (this is still a work in progress, but I am a believer now that I've made a few changes). Speaker placement has helped a lot as well.
Bottom line -- there may be things possible with your present setup that can improve things. In other words, getting the basics right, and tweaking what you've already got. I still have some work to do with my system, and may end up with a sub at some point if it still doesn't satisfy.
I'll be watching this thread with interest to read the experiences of others.
Best,
Svend
I just read this excellent article on subs from a local audio shop. Some very good, common sense advice here:
https://www.planetofsoundonline.com/pages/how-to-integrate-a-subwoofer-into-your-2-channel-system?mc_cid=0be8581474&mc_eid=d3d4ce2fa3
And then there are some helpful comments from Paul McGowan of PS Audio in his Ask Paul video series:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd_UBKioKrnbZl15gpk7pcDDvBrGLCCnr
He has at least four episodes on subs, and I won't all post here...just scroll through the list to find them. But here's one about small rooms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3FUgaxEzyk
Whilst I agree that it is possible to get subs to work well especially in an active system using digital crossovers I reckon a better solution would be Tannoy Eatons:
https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/46509/tannoy-legacy-series-eaton-loudspeakers-pair-&utm_source=BingAds&utm_campaign=BingAds&utm_content=TNY-LEGA-EATN?msclkid=9cf9465363ac1a8730571da19d3650e0
They won't mind that the room is small nor will they mind being jammed up against the wall or even into the corners. And bass will be more than sufficient. They'll make the Spendors plus a sub sound like toys. Okay they are bit spendy but the original versions do come up second hand for a lot less.
You may not have seen this post, it maybe of help as it is related.
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61258-Big-woofers
jandl100
19-11-2018, 19:23
Whilst I agree that it is possible to get subs to work well especially in an active system using digital crossovers I reckon a better solution would be Tannoy Eatons:
https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/46509/tannoy-legacy-series-eaton-loudspeakers-pair-&utm_source=BingAds&utm_campaign=BingAds&utm_content=TNY-LEGA-EATN?msclkid=9cf9465363ac1a8730571da19d3650e0
They won't mind that the room is small nor will they mind being jammed up against the wall or even into the corners. And bass will be more than sufficient. They'll make the Spendors plus a sub sound like toys. Okay they are bit spendy but the original versions do come up second hand for a lot less.
Tannoys to follow Spendors?
Well, they may do scale and bass but they throw the wonderful tonal neutrality and naturalness of the Spendors straight out of the window. :doh:
(IMO ;) )
Tannoys to follow Spendors?
Well, they may do scale and bass but they throw the wonderful tonal neutrality and naturalness of the Spendors straight out of the window. :doh:
(IMO ;) )
I grant you they are different to the Spendors. But I reckon they would be a completely satisfactory solution in these specific circumstances. And there's a lot more to Tannoys than just scale and bass.
I grant you they are different to the Spendors. And there's a lot more to Tannoys than just scale and bass.
Yes, a bucketload of cash [emoji383]
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Pigmy Pony
20-11-2018, 08:03
I once heard some Tannoys at Preston railway station and I must say I wasn't impressed. Voices sounded terrible.
Yes, a bucketload of cash [emoji383]
lol. The Spendors are £700 so they aren't exactly giving them away. For me I'd rather pay a bit more and get something that does exactly what I want in my room. For someone who listens to a lot of electronica with the sub bass and that, those Spendors wouldn't be my first thought for a recommendation.
OK for TV surround sound. Kiss of death for Hi Fi
I would agree with your post 13 Jerry, but based on Tannoy Gold 15 Lancasters in the early 70s, in comparison with a BC1.
The mid was so smooth on the latter, but that on the Gold so rough that my haring test showed a correlative inverse FR after 8 years of listening to the Tannoys with 10 watts per channel max.
icehockeyboy
20-11-2018, 13:55
Borrow a sub and see if you like it.
Jobs a good ‘un!
been running a monolith downward firing 12" off the high level inputs alongside my floorstanders for years and it works just fine
so well I have a plan to try a couple of passive 12" ones on each channel to see if it gets even better
Pigmy Pony
20-11-2018, 19:55
been running a monolith downward firing 12" off the high level inputs alongside my floorstanders for years and it works just fine
so well I have a plan to try a couple of passive 12" ones on each channel to see if it gets even better
I'm thinking that if you like what the Monolith does, you may be better off buying a second one. Give your amp an easier life too.
Haselsh1
21-11-2018, 15:12
OK so I have just checked out the big woofers thread as suggested with serious interest. Still thinking/procrastinating. I'll be back ;)
sq225917
21-11-2018, 17:07
Sub worked great in old house with kef ref 203, it sucked in new house, square room, shit floors. Measurement, matching and a sympathetic environment are everything ime.
PhilofCas
21-11-2018, 17:46
OK so I have just checked out the big woofers thread as suggested with serious interest. Still thinking/procrastinating. I'll be back ;)
I’d say go for it Shaun, we have same speakers and I bought a sub late April, a BK XLS200. So far I’ve tuned mine by ear and it’s 80% there, but even with the odd bit of fatness and boom i’m certainly not bothered much by it, some DSP would help, but I’m in no rush.
Just enjoying the extra bass drive and added realism/believability. I do believe it offers a big improvement all round, not just the bass, it adds meat everywhere. You mentioned you listen to electronic stuff, it’s one of my favourite genres, I find the combo of Spendor and BK to be brilliant, just listening to some Gorillaz and it sounds pretty good to me.
I can’t see me doing without one now going forward, should have got one years ago.
Let us know if you want anymore info.
All the best,
Phil.
OK so I have just checked out the big woofers thread as suggested with serious interest. Still thinking/procrastinating. I'll be back ;)
We maybe in a similar position Shaun both having Spendors with little bottom end. I really could do with a bit more bass as it brings scale to a system and enhances midrange and treble. REL have recommended two t/5i or one t/9i. I am very tempted. I am sure you would benefit from a subwoofer as, if I am correct, you like a lot of electronic stuff which has a lot going on in the sub bass area?
Haselsh1
21-11-2018, 20:51
Yeah we've just had to come from B&W CM8 S2's to these tiny nearfield's and it is not fun. The big plus though is that the mid and treble of the Spendors leave us wondering why..? Why the hell did we bother with the B&W's..? I am seriously thinking about a diminutive Cambridge Audio Minx 201 because of its size - I'll get back to tell how it all turned out.
We can't really take Quantic seriously at the moment due to around half of the music being completely absent. 5th Exotic is just sounding bloody ridiculous. Also, Quantic and Spanky Wilson we just haven't dared play yet.
:steam:
Haselsh1
26-11-2018, 08:03
OK, just bought and paid for a Yamaha NS-SW200 subwoofer to see if it improves our listening. It should be here in a few days.
I use an MJ Acoustics Pro 50 sub with some Celestion compact As, sounds good in my 3m by 4 m front room parked in the bay window. I have wooden floors so it sounded a bit woolly until I parked a spare floor tile under it which tightens it up no end. Otherwise the bass goes through the floor.
It really helps with the sound once dialled in, which took a bit of experimentation. I did that all by ear with no measurement malarkey so it can be done. I found it works best dialled in to just above the A's lowest frequency response (80 Hz?) and then set the sub volume lower than you might think, makes a huge difference though.
Haselsh1
28-11-2018, 09:48
OK guys got the thing yesterday and plumbed it in straight away. Had less than an hour of experience but really struck by the subtlety of it. On Eat Static's latest CD there is some extreme low end stuff that the Spendors were never going to be able to reproduce and on George Michael's CD 'Older' there is now way more feeling to the music due to the extra depth. Playing '5th Exotic' by Quantic was slightly disappointing though. I'm guessing that last years B&W CM8 S2's were just a bit too much in what was then such a large room. I'll add more when I can say more. So far though, love its subtlety.
Shaun, subtlety was not a descriptor I was expecting when discussing subwoofers. But that's a good thing, as it is a very positive quality to have in this case. Makes me feel encouraged to try it myself now. Last thing I want is overbearing bass booming away in the corner...I feel the headache coming on just thinking about it.
Did you get just the one unit? How big is your room? The Yamaha has an 8" cone, correct?
Haselsh1
29-11-2018, 06:17
Yeah the Yamaha has an 8" cone. I have just one unit not two and I am amazed at how the low frequencies just shimmer around the room like a pool close to the floor. It adds so much depth to the sound. Listening last night to Shpongle's Museum of Consciousness the sound has opened up massively with some huge low frequency extension. I too was expecting the thing to completely swamp the sound but it is just not the case. I have noticed as well that if you listen to say, half an album of music and then turn off the sub, it is blatantly obvious what it is adding to the overall sound.
jandl100
29-11-2018, 06:44
Subs only boom for 2 reasons ....
1) if you want them to
2) if you set them up wrong.
;)
dave2010
29-11-2018, 07:52
This thread is interesting and a few things have emerged.
One interesting observation is that the room and house have an effect - I can believe that.
I was considering sub woofers many years ago, and went to have a demonstration of some small BBC monitor speakers at a shop in Notting Hill. Those speakers were small, and surprisingly good for the sound, but pretty hopeless on bass. The shop guy had a sub woofer which he could switch in - and the results with that were amazing.
I think the important thing is that the sub woofer really should be barely audible, and not trying too hard. It isn't supposed to be providing much really audible bass, but reinforcing the low end, and going down below the frequencies of the main system where the drop off can be very sharp depending on the speaker type. Also, as mentioned upwards in the thread, the cross over is important.
I didn't follow it up, though years later I did meet the guy who put built very long concrete horns under his floor to match his speakers on the wooden floor above it. He said that it was good, and for really low notes he just fed in a signal from a low frequency oscillator which he activated with a button near his seat to impress his friends. He said it didn't matter what the frequency was too much as nobody could hear it anyway, but it just give a bit more oomph on organ music in climaxes. He only pressed the button very sparingly.
Haselsh1
29-11-2018, 09:57
Given that I am completely happy with the sound of the Spendors with the Prima Luna pre/power I now feel as though I am getting the very best I can from my current system. This sub sounds bloody wonderful on most of my electronic music where it adds punch and weight, it also sounds bloody good on the music of George Micheal. Maybe I should try it on some Michael Buble...?
;)
Michael Buble is not a baritone, last I heard... Doubt his range would excite the sub :)
This is all good feedback about your experience Shaun - thanks.
Again, I'm interested to know your room size? Our room is about 240 sg. ft.. Just curious to see in what size of room an 8" cone performs.
Speaking of boominess, I would image that on a suspended wood floor that a down-firing sub would not be the best choice. Isolation from floor is likely also important.
Haselsh1
29-11-2018, 14:16
Michael Buble is not a baritone, last I heard... Doubt his range would excite the sub :)
I very much doubt Michael Buble excites much of anything.
Room size is 14X12 and has a solid floor covered with slate. It is an old rural cottage in darkest Lincolnshire especially with the current weather where everything is bloody dark.
Oh yeah, very low ceiling too.
Thanks Shaun -- good to know about room size. I will check out the Yamaha range, and others, and see which size driver would best suit our room. The Yamaha's have an interesting port design that seems unique.
Keep your home warm and bright to fight off the winter blues! :)
Best,
Svend
Subs only boom for 2 reasons ....
1) if you want them to
2) if you set them up wrong.
;)
You said that better than I could have :)
This thread is interesting and a few things have emerged.
One interesting observation is that the room and house have an effect - I can believe that.
I was considering sub woofers many years ago, and went to have a demonstration of some small BBC monitor speakers at a shop in Notting Hill. Those speakers were small, and surprisingly good for the sound, but pretty hopeless on bass. The shop guy had a sub woofer which he could switch in - and the results with that were amazing.
I think the important thing is that the sub woofer really should be barely audible, and not trying too hard. It isn't supposed to be providing much really audible bass, but reinforcing the low end, and going down below the frequencies of the main system where the drop off can be very sharp depending on the speaker type. Also, as mentioned upwards in the thread, the cross over is important.
I didn't follow it up, though years later I did meet the guy who put built very long concrete horns under his floor to match his speakers on the wooden floor above it. He said that it was good, and for really low notes he just fed in a signal from a low frequency oscillator which he activated with a button near his seat to impress his friends. He said it didn't matter what the frequency was too much as nobody could hear it anyway, but it just give a bit more oomph on organ music in climaxes. He only pressed the button very sparingly.
Blofeld? :D
Pigmy Pony
29-11-2018, 23:26
Given that I am completely happy with the sound of the Spendors with the Prima Luna pre/power I now feel as though I am getting the very best I can from my current system. This sub sounds bloody wonderful on most of my electronic music where it adds punch and weight, it also sounds bloody good on the music of George Micheal. Maybe I should try it on some Michael Buble...?
;)
George Michael made some brilliant recordings with quite a lot going on in the bass. One particular song, Spinning The Wheel, has a bassline that small speakers may hint at but will never get, not without a sub. I'd rather not have a whole instrument missing from the music, so for me using a sub with small speakers is a no brainer.
Of course when it comes to bass quality, you probably don't get owt for nowt, so pursuing them low frequencies can be a whole new world of financial pain (used purchases notwithstanding). :)
Haselsh1
30-11-2018, 09:11
I seriously have to agree with your comment about having an entire instrument missing from the mix. In terms of what we listen to on a regular basis which is electronica, it really was pissing me off that maybe the two lowest octaves of sound were completely absent. Referring to George Michael's Older album, that particular track does indeed have some sub bass frequencies that go really low and even years back when using Castle Harlech's they couldn't reproduce the lowest notes of that track. Moving to now though, the Yamaha sub easily reproduces them and we still get to keep our killer midrange that the Spendor's show off so well.
This subwoofer thing took me two weeks of buggering about procrastinating before I decided to risk a few hundred quid. I still cannot really believe that it has been such and easy fix. Last night we sat and listened to Daft Punk's Random Access Memories CD and every now and then I get the impression that maybe the sub is not doing enough and that I can't hear it. It's only when I turn down the volume of the sub that it becomes blatantly obvious just what it is adding to the music.
With that in mind I am really pleased it has turned out the way it has for an outlay of just over £250.
If anyone out there has bass issues I can only suggest you give it a try. You never know.
Over the last decade or so a view has been formed that a sub not only gives the missing bass, but also improves imaging.
I cannot see how that would work but it is worth thinking about.
Haselsh1
30-11-2018, 12:31
Dennis, a very interesting comment you made there. I am also of the opinion that the imaging has improved considerably as has low level information however, we have only had these Spendors since March 1st of this year so it is possible they are still running in. They seem to have changed their perspective on the sound over the last week or so. Very odd.
Supposedly there are spacial cues in the lower bass sounds so maybe not that surprising. I've found that systems with deep clean bass invariably do a better 3D image. Of course that could be coincidence.
walpurgis
30-11-2018, 12:56
Over the last decade or so a view has been formed that a sub not only gives the missing bass, but also improves imaging.
I cannot see how that would work but it is worth thinking about.
Some say the same about supertweeters.
Supposedly there are spacial cues in the lower bass sounds so maybe not that surprising. I've found that systems with deep clean bass invariably do a better 3D image. Of course that could be coincidence.
My experience is very similar. When listening to systems with full range speakers going down to about 25hz I find the bass backdrop allows the ears to hear 3D imaging better and top end detail is easy to pinpoint. Vocals and Instruments take on more body and become more realistic. Scale is so important in a system and without low bass scale in not achievable.
Haselsh1
30-11-2018, 13:27
Got to agree regarding scale, the whole sound is way more grand and expressive.
Best thing you can do with a downward firing sub is to sit it on top of a piece of granite like a large kitchen chopping surface, cost £5-£10 and makes a hell of a difference to having the sub on a carpeted wooden floor, worked a treat with the BK Gemini 2 I used to have.
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paulf-2007
30-11-2018, 16:48
With different speakers I used a leema 10" subwoofer in my listening room 7' X 9' with a vaulted ceiling and suspended wood floor with carpet tiles, it's all a matter of control. I now use it in my first floor office( small bedroom ) and it works a treat. The problems some have are probably self inflicted.
Haselsh1
30-11-2018, 17:34
As already said we have slate over concrete here so no such problems. The Yamaha though has a forward firing driver with a left side port (left to the outward facing driver, right to me). The sound is now bloody excellent even on male/female vocals where the instruments take on much more depth and grandeur.
Pigmy Pony
30-11-2018, 18:20
Best thing you can do with a downward firing sub is to sit it on top of a piece of granite like a large kitchen chopping surface, cost £5-£10 and makes a hell of a difference to having the sub on a carpeted wooden floor, worked a treat with the BK Gemini 2 I used to have.
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What kind of difference did you experience Steve? I have an XLS200 DF on my second set up and it's on carpet.
I am intermittently having some doubts and concerns about my speakers on vocals. Not on music so much, although it seems that much is close mic'ed, and hence prone to proximity bass boost, but on broadcast spoken word.
In my days at Bush speech was impeccably dealt with, the Beeb priding itself on that aspect of sound, but it is claimed that the Gundry dip sucked out some of the lower mid/upper bass, which could artificially improve intelligibility.
It all seems much more variable now on my acquisitions,, as does bass content, dynamics, and tone.
An ex AVI man says that he has just listened to a pair of ADAMs, and that the upper bass was exaggerated, and voice poor on them, but they were current speakers which are not active.
What kind of difference did you experience Steve? I have an XLS200 DF on my second set up and it's on carpet.
The improvement was in overall control and tunefulness, bass lines were more taut and better defined and transients like kick drums were more solid.
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Haselsh1
30-12-2018, 09:32
Well it's been a while now and I continue to be really amazed at the improvement the sub has had to the sound from my system. Yesterday I played an album by Kiasmos and the extra depth and emotion in the sound was bloody amazing. The album 'Older' by George Michael is just so much more than it was before. I have the sub set so that it just reproduces the lowest frequencies and at such a volume it doesn't intrude in negative ways on the high bass notes. I love the depth and ambience that it adds to the sound. Money very well spent as I got to keep the stunning midrange of the Spendors.
PhilofCas
30-12-2018, 09:35
:thumbsup:
Well it's been a while now and I continue to be really amazed at the improvement the sub has had to the sound from my system. Yesterday I played an album by Kiasmos and the extra depth and emotion in the sound was bloody amazing. The album 'Older' by George Michael is just so much more than it was before. I have the sub set so that it just reproduces the lowest frequencies and at such a volume it doesn't intrude in negative ways on the high bass notes. I love the depth and ambience that it adds to the sound. Money very well spent as I got to keep the stunning midrange of the Spendors.
Shaun, that is exactly how I feel about my Spendors so I must investigate the SUB route. My speakers only go down to 50-60Hz so a SUB would really make a difference i am sure.
Pigmy Pony
30-12-2018, 09:47
Well it's been a while now and I continue to be really amazed at the improvement the sub has had to the sound from my system. Yesterday I played an album by Kiasmos and the extra depth and emotion in the sound was bloody amazing. The album 'Older' by George Michael is just so much more than it was before. I have the sub set so that it just reproduces the lowest frequencies and at such a volume it doesn't intrude in negative ways on the high bass notes. I love the depth and ambience that it adds to the sound. Money very well spent as I got to keep the stunning midrange of the Spendors.
Love a happy ending, makes you feel warm and fuzzy :)
I will just mention that if anyone within chucking distance of Chorley would like to try out a sub, they're more than welcome to borrow my BK XLS-200DF.
Firebottle
30-12-2018, 09:47
I can bring my sub round for a trial if you like ...
I can bring my sub round for a trial if you like ...
When I get next chance i may take you up on this Alan:thumbsup:
Pigmy Pony
30-12-2018, 10:00
Gonna have me a meatball marinara later, no one's getting their hands on that :nono:
Haselsh1
30-12-2018, 14:06
Shaun, that is exactly how I feel about my Spendors so I must investigate the SUB route. My speakers only go down to 50-60Hz so a SUB would really make a difference i am sure.
I have my ambition set on a better pair of Spendors should money come my way ;)
I have my ambition set on a better pair of Spendors should money come my way ;)
SP100R?
Haselsh1
30-12-2018, 19:39
SP100R?
LOL, they would have to be small and have a midrange to die for. Then again, I do like the look of the Sterling Broadcast Monitor in a really fancy wood finish. Oh yeah and the mini Harbeth ;)
Well it's been a while now and I continue to be really amazed at the improvement the sub has had to the sound from my system. Yesterday I played an album by Kiasmos and the extra depth and emotion in the sound was bloody amazing. The album 'Older' by George Michael is just so much more than it was before. I have the sub set so that it just reproduces the lowest frequencies and at such a volume it doesn't intrude in negative ways on the high bass notes. I love the depth and ambience that it adds to the sound. Money very well spent as I got to keep the stunning midrange of the Spendors.
This is great feedback Shaun. Good to hear. It has inspired me to look seriously into a sub now. Once I get closer to starting the hunt, I may post back with some questions, if you don't mind.
Best,
Svend
Hypnotist
01-01-2019, 00:55
I also have a BK XLS 200 and I can't detect any difference between low level and high level inputs, only thing I do know is I had mine set to high and the bass was over powering the speakers, backed it down like others have said and now its not drowning out the mid/treble. I mostly use mine for Octoberfest music.
Haselsh1
10-01-2019, 15:33
OK there is some music I would not use the sub for but that would mainly be jazz with vocals. Mine gets used mainly for electronic music such as the Chemical Brothers, Younger Brother, Shpongle, Hallucinogen etc etc. Oh yeah and Talvin Singh whose music benefits so much.
The thing just adds so much low frequency depth it extends the emotion so much. I would not want to use it in a very large room though. Those resonances would be quite difficult to tame.
OK there is some music I would not use the sub for but that would mainly be jazz with vocals. Mine gets used mainly for electronic music such as the Chemical Brothers, Younger Brother, Shpongle, Hallucinogen etc etc. Oh yeah and Talvin Singh whose music benefits so much.
The thing just adds so much low frequency depth it extends the emotion so much. I would not want to use it in a very large room though. Those resonances would be quite difficult to tame.
Are you hearing problems with resonances in your room? Have you tried out different placements in the room?
BTW, good taste in music. Been a fan of Chemical Brothers for ages.
Haselsh1
10-01-2019, 19:01
Are you hearing problems with resonances in your room?
No mate, no resonances in this room but our last room was pretty big and would have caused some bloody headaches. Regarding music, I love electronic stuff even the ambient inventions of Brian Eno. Leftfield, love it; Underworld, love it; Kiasmos, love it; Trentemolle, love it. There is just so much stuff out there with electronica and most of it makes full use of the subwoofer. In fact, one of my most favourite bands, Ozric Tentacles benefits from the addition of the sub especially with their newer recordings.
Pigmy Pony
10-01-2019, 19:46
No mate, no resonances in this room but our last room was pretty big and would have caused some bloody headaches. Regarding music, I love electronic stuff even the ambient inventions of Brian Eno. Leftfield, love it; Underworld, love it; Kiasmos, love it; Trentemolle, love it. There is just so much stuff out there with electronica and most of it makes full use of the subwoofer. In fact, one of my most favourite bands, Ozric Tentacles benefits from the addition of the sub especially with their newer recordings.
Future Sound Of London has its moments too :)
Some good music recommendations, guys. I will have a listen to those. It's not a genre I tune in to often, but when I do the Chemical Bros. are on my go-to list. Crystal Method too...some good stuff there. Future Funk Squad is fun also. Eno is an old fave. As you say, no shortage of good artists in this genre.
Shaun, sounds like that sub works well in your size room. Ours is similar size, maybe a bit larger, so we should be good. Thanks for the feedback. Presently snooping around for a used sub to try out.
Haselsh1
11-01-2019, 13:22
Yeah I like The Orb and Orbital too but not overly keen on the ravey dance track stuff mainly because I haven't got the correct type of sound system for that. I enjoy Ian Van Dahl and Lasgo but that is the trancey rave stuff so maybe not hearing it at its best but stuff like Rob Dougan is good and sounds good. I guess to be really honest I could do with a more capable amplifier Watts wise but I'd much rather stay with the sound I have than trade in just for more headroom.
Pigmy Pony
11-01-2019, 19:49
Underworld! Mustn't forget Underworld!
Never heard of Rob Dougan, I will check him out.
Underworld! Mustn't forget Underworld!
Never heard 'em before. Will put them on Spotify while cooking dinner tonight. Whenever I play electronic it clears the room instantly. Will be nice to have the kitchen to myself. Ahhhh... P & Q... :)
Pigmy Pony
11-01-2019, 23:39
If you've seen the film "Trainspotting" you'll be familiar with a couple of their tracks. The part where Renton is going "cold turkey" in his bedroom uses the track "Dark and Long".
Thanks for that Steve. My first search for Underworld on Spotify was a fail. Now I've got them and will have a listen tomorrow.
Great movie and soundtrack too.
Cheers,
Svend
Discopants
13-01-2019, 19:36
OK there is some music I would not use the sub for but that would mainly be jazz with vocals. Mine gets used mainly for electronic music such as the Chemical Brothers, Younger Brother, Shpongle, Hallucinogen etc etc. Oh yeah and Talvin Singh whose music benefits so much.
The thing just adds so much low frequency depth it extends the emotion so much. I would not want to use it in a very large room though. Those resonances would be quite difficult to tame.
Just joined and reading through a few threads, glad you lile the sub you got and its working put for you. Im a big fan of subwoofers and small speakers and i like to listen to jazz and electronic music too predominantly.
If you get your sub dialled in correctly, and this does take a fair bit of time then i would urge you to try using it for your jazz sessions too. When listening to a good sub dialled in correctly and listening to jazz you really should not notice it at all unless you turn it off. Even though you may not hear any sub bass notes in the music a good sub just improves everything in my experience. I listen to a lot of live jazz recordings and i think the sub really brings these recordings to life.
Give it a try, you might need to retune the sub now that its burnt in.
chipcalzada
14-01-2019, 05:08
I too have bookshelf speakers with a REL subwoofer and I'm very happy with the sound. I listen to jazz and electronica as well, recently I've put blue tack underneath the feet of the REL (found this on REL website) as I have hardwood floors and I've found that it made the bass more controlled and pleasant sounding. Because of this, I don't turn the sub off anymore when listening to jazz. Maybe worth a try.
Martin, Chip -- thanks for the feedback. Are there any particular brands or models of subs that you'd recommend? Chip is having good success with REL, which get praise pretty much everywhere. Shaun is doing well with his Yamaha. Any others worth looking at? For good musical performance that is, not AV.
Thanks,
Svend
chipcalzada
15-01-2019, 04:08
Hi Svend,
What drew me to REL is the fact that they only make subwoofers, I don't think you can go wrong with it. The other brand that I've come across on other forums which constantly gets good reviews is JL audio. I've never heard one in the flesh though. There are two people whose opinion I value when it comes to audio that have owned REL subs and they had nothing but good things to say about it so naturally I went with REL. Hope this helps!
Discopants
15-01-2019, 12:31
I'm using older Rel. I upgraded to a stentor 3 from a stadium 2 fairly recently. I like the aesthetics of these older rel models with wood veneers. Just need to be wary of condition as rel no longer support the ST series so if the amp goes it would be a pain.
I hear good things about BK subs which they sell factory to consumer so you get good. Vfm.
Haselsh1
15-01-2019, 15:06
I really wanted to buy a BK sub but wasn't prepared to potentially waste more money if it didn't work out.
Good suggestions guys. REL are easy to find here. I think they are one of the only ones not using a class-D amp nowadays. Should be easier to service I would imagine.
Not sure about BK - since they are direct-sell I doubt it would be worth shipping to Canada and paying customs...warranty service is a concern then too. Better to buy local in this case.
There are plenty of subs in the used market here, so I am tempted to go that way so as to minimize outlay in case I don't like it. Like Shaun, I'm just ready to dip my toe into this, not take the full plunge yet.
I use a REL Quake with my Ruark Epilogues (Linn Kan size on Kan stands) in a smallish conservatory with suspended wood floor and it works very well indeed. Trick is to get the roll off right and then just enough gain to support the main speakers. All too easy to have the sub set too high. I adjust the gain with my ear up close to the sub until I can just hear it cut in and then add 1 click of gain. Works well for me. In contrast it was pants when I tried it with my EPOS M22i floor standers. Adding a pair of super tweeters however added just enough lift. Also means I can compensate for a bit of high tone hearing loss in my right ear.
Pigmy Pony
16-01-2019, 08:35
I suppose it's luck of the draw but my BK sub arrived 7 years ago, and has been switched on permanently ever since, with no issues whatsoever. Worked great for home cinema, and now does a sterling job giving me an extra octave with Celestion 5's in second system. Didn't help when I tried in main system though, which already goes quite low in the bass.
Haselsh1
27-01-2019, 15:29
Just tried the sub with some jazz, well when I say jazz it was actually 'Tourist' by Saint Germain and 'This Way' by Acoustic Alchemy. Not stuff for the purist by any means but certainly damn fine music in a jazz style. The Saint Germain album must be mainly sampled loops and real instruments similar to Quantic but more 'jazz' than Quantic. The sub, as I was told, really does help with the sound of this music in a very big way. I have also moved the sub to fire down the room now rather than across it and this has resulted in me having to reduce the volume of the sub. There is much more reinforcement this way around. Still loving it, still not bored ;)
Just tried the sub with some jazz, well when I say jazz it was actually 'Tourist' by Saint Germain and 'This Way' by Acoustic Alchemy. Not stuff for the purist by any means but certainly damn fine music in a jazz style. The Saint Germain album must be mainly sampled loops and real instruments similar to Quantic but more 'jazz' than Quantic. The sub, as I was told, really does help with the sound of this music in a very big way. I have also moved the sub to fire down the room now rather than across it and this has resulted in me having to reduce the volume of the sub. There is much more reinforcement this way around. Still loving it, still not bored ;)
how have you got the sub connected shaun? interested as i might get one
Haselsh1
28-01-2019, 09:40
how have you got the sub connected shaun? interested as i might get one
Grant, I have taken the spare stereo phono outputs from the preamp and connected to left/right input on the sub. It must just tie the two together into a mono signal. Even though my sub is only 100 Watts or so there is plenty of low end reinforcement with the volume below half way. It really is quite effective. My last speakers before these were B&W CM8 S2's and these would definitely have benefited from this sub as their low end was not really that low. Before those I used KEF Q500's and they went much lower than the CM8's. Yet another case of live and learn. Another case of being dropped into a situation and coming out smiling.
Discopants
29-01-2019, 20:33
Glad the sub is working out for you Shaun.
Down firing is good if you have hard flooring , particularly if you are ground floor. You can get a better room response as long as you have good placement and a friendly room. Forward firing better if you have a suspended floor.
Edit think i misread your comment there , sounds like its fowrad firing but you pointed it differently.
Hypnotist
30-01-2019, 23:34
I have a BK XLS 200 down firing using high level inputs on my 2 ch and my AV amp excellent sub but does need careful setting up
Grant, I have taken the spare stereo phono outputs from the preamp and connected to left/right input on the sub. It must just tie the two together into a mono signal. Even though my sub is only 100 Watts or so there is plenty of low end reinforcement with the volume below half way. It really is quite effective. My last speakers before these were B&W CM8 S2's and these would definitely have benefited from this sub as their low end was not really that low. Before those I used KEF Q500's and they went much lower than the CM8's. Yet another case of live and learn. Another case of being dropped into a situation and coming out smiling.Cheers shaun. I was considering adding to speaker line. Thought that might have been way you did it
Pigmy Pony
01-02-2019, 11:22
I have my sub (in second system) going from high level input on sub, using Neutrik plug, to connections on one of the speakers, with yellow part of lead hanging unconnected. Sounds fine to me, but is there a better way? Amp is an Amptastic Mini-1, so not really any options there methinks.
Discopants
02-02-2019, 23:40
Steve , why cant you run off the speaker posts on the back of the amp ? What make is your sub ?
Pigmy Pony
05-02-2019, 17:01
Hi Martin, The amp in question is an Amptastic Mini-1, which is tiny and the speaker posts are VERY close together. I was a bit scared of astray wire possibly touching where it shouldn't and doing some damage. I think perhaps I should 'man up' and give it a go anyway. No guts no glory :)
Sub is BK XLS200-DF.
Haselsh1
02-03-2019, 14:10
OK so here we go again. A weekend or two back, a friend came over and stayed. We listened to quite a bit of music on mine and Sue's sound system whereupon he said he thought that the bass wasn't very good as it didn't go low enough and there wasn't enough definition. Now this guy uses KEF Q700's which back in their day were known for an overpowered, overblown bass but a couple of years ago I used KEF Q500's and had better results. I bought the Q500's over the Q700's because of their superior bass quality and better, tighter sound and have to admit that on the CD 'I'm Thankful' by Spanky Wilson and Quantic the really low stuff was better on those speakers than I am currently getting. After the Q500's I changed to B&W CM8 S2's and immediately lost that extra low frequency stuff on tracks like the one mentioned but sadly, that extra low bass is still missing as it also is on 'On The Run' by Pink Floyd.
Now I know that subs can only go so low as can any loudspeaker system but I did think it would reproduce the stuff I had become accustomed to. Yes, the sub has more solidity and control but it isn't reproducing what I know is there from my time with the KEF Q500's.
Maybe I should reinvestigate Q500's. They might just fit this room.
Discopants
05-03-2019, 22:57
Hi Martin, The amp in question is an Amptastic Mini-1, which is tiny and the speaker posts are VERY close together. I was a bit scared of astray wire possibly touching where it shouldn't and doing some damage. I think perhaps I should 'man up' and give it a go anyway. No guts no glory :)
Sub is BK XLS200-DF.
Shaun, yes its a pretty compact amp but the binding posts are big and look good quality. I would try out the back of the amp, looks like it would be an easy hitch up to me.
alcarmichael
18-03-2019, 16:15
I use an Auralex sub platform underneath my B&W ASW2500 and it comes recommended. I found it really tightened up the bass and added depth too. Could be a worthwhile investment for comparatively little outlay for anyone looking for improvements from their sub.
I discovered this after adding a similar product under my speaker stands which proved to be a complete revelation! I created a thread somewhere on the forum regarding these speaker platforms...
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