View Full Version : DCB1 unity gain pre-amp and spotfire interconnects - ongoing review
The DCB1 pre-amp is a powered, unity gain Pre-amp available as a kit you make up yourself or get someone to make for you.
I bought mine from Steve (STD305M) of this parish as he has decided to build a hot-rodded version ( more here https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61230-DCB1-TURBO-BUILD-600Ma&highlight=dcb1)
Steve was generous enough to let me have it for the cost of the parts so this was not an expensive punt. Oliver (Bigman80) had already brought his over so I could have a listen to it and I was intrigued enough to obtain one for long-term evaluation.
Here's a picture of it. The case is generic Chinese but is of acceptable quality:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180906/2beb9069a5e0c4ee4e9d32a3288d28f3.jpg
At the same time as bringing over the Pre-amp Oli also brought over his Spotifire interconnects. Again I was intrigued by what they were doing so I bought a set so I could have a proper listen over time.
Due to its input sensitivity the Krell power amp I am using at the moment is not an ideal match for a passive pre-amp so I thought I'd try an alternative. Added to that although I was getting a pretty good sound I have, on a few occasions, heard systems that are another level above so I thought I would see if I could get there too. (On the cheap, obviously :) )
So this is an ongoing review of the combination of the Spotfire interconnects and the DCB1 pre-amp. Ongoing because I have not had enough of a listen yet to come to any sort of absolute opinion.
For the record the system is
Sony SCD-XB790QS cd player (I have better but they are all out of commission at the moment for one reason or another).
DCB1 pre amp
Krell KSA50 Power Amp (50 wpc 'baby' Krell from 1993)
JM Lab Electra 926 Loudspeakers (4 driver 3-way floorstanders)
Interconnects are Spotfire from cd player to pre and from pre to power. Speaker cables are some unbranded multi-strand copper cables I bought from Geoff (Walpurgis).
Since doing blind testing I have become something of an agnostic with regards to interconnects. Not to say they all sound the same but the differences tend to be small and results have as much to do with how well they get on with the boxes they connect as anything intrinsic to the cable itself. So I'm not going to concentrate on the interconnects on their own here, you can get a set on loan and see how they work out for you in your system.
The DCB1 has been compared to pre-amps costing around £3K so its reputation precedes it. I'm not much for active pre-amps on the whole as most of them are not very good. Barry of this parish owns a Mark Levinson that I would have in a second, but try finding one, and besides you would be talking £3K second hand which is too rich for my blood. So I was hoping the DCB1would be similar.
Compared to using a passive the presentation of the DCB1 is quite different. In broad terms the sound is darker but with more sparkle, the metallic nature of cymbals comes across much more vividly. Rim shots and other quick percussive sounds are more defined and hit harder. Bass is subjectively deeper, has more power and is more 'solid'. Stereo imaging is good, despite my room being a major factor here (too narrow). It's possible to sit to one side at 90 degrees from the speakers and the stereo image is still in the centre. That's unusual and a good sign.
Downsides: I have noticed only two so far. The sound is less open and subjectively 'effortless' than the passive, also when a mix gets busy the separation of instruments is not as clear cut. It's still pretty good mind, but not as good.
These traits were not so apparent on some of the recordings I played. I've found it's always a good idea to listen to a wide variety of recordings when making an assessment not just some showcase audiophile recording like you often get at shows. How a system handles a busy mix in a murky analogue recording is the real test, not how 'realistic' it sounds when playing a recording of a bloke hitting a block of wood with a stick.
Here's what I've listened to so far:
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - first record I ever played on my first proper separates system so I always wheel this one out for testing. Couldn't find fault. Test passed 10/10
Jethro Tull - A Little Light Music - live semi acoustic set from about 1991, and my test to see if the set up can deliver the 'beauty' of the sound. In particular the instrumental 'Under Wraps' should be an entrancing aural experience. Test passed. 8/10
Boston - Third Stage - I demand that a system should be able to show up the differences in recording and production and not make everything sound like it was made in the same studio at around the same time with the same engineers. The more coloured the system, the less of a difference. This one should stand out as no other recording sounds like this (you can even hear the tape wow at some points). Test passed. 9/10
The Cult - Love: Heavy rock at high levels should remain clean and non-fatiguing regardless. If a system can't do that it's no use to me. Subjectively I thought that this seemed slightly more limited dynamically than I am used to. Not by much and I could just be recalling it from playing it through my Technics SLP1200 which is better than the Sony in this regard. But no issues with any grain or distortion. Test Passed 7/10
The Doors - LA Woman - One of the best things ever done by anyone even if it is a slightly dodgy analogue recording from 1971 - trick here is to get the rainstorm in 'Riders On The Storm' correct. Have to say I have never heard this album sounding better, the view into the studio was amazing. Passed, 10/10
Steely Dan: greatest hits 1972-78 - covers a variety of eras and productions so serves the same purpose as the Boston album. Sparkle on this that I did not have before, I was sucked into the performance even though I know every word and note of these songs and could play the whole album in my head. At this point I was starting to realise that the DCB1/Spotfire combo was pretty good. 9/10
Steely Dan - Two Against Nature - Criticised at the time (2000) for being mastered too loud have to say I have never found that. A highly polished recording that was given a highly polished presentation. Pretty much flawless 10/10.
The Blues Brothers - Original Soundtrack - good production values but this can sound too much on a system that has something dodgy going on. I've heard people talk about the sound of strings 'caressing their ears' before but never experienced that myself. But on 'Minnie The Moocher' they did just that. 10/10 again
And finally
Daft Punk - Random Access Memories - this was a bit of an eye-opener as it really showed up what the DCB1 and Spotfire were doing differently. It isn't a showcase recording by any means and when the mix was busy this was when I noticed that instrumental separation was not all it could be. Nor did it quite bop along like I am used to. The Spotfires do let through an unusual amount of bass power and weight and I don't know if this was the reason. I still enjoyed it mind, but this was a bit of a chink in the armour. 6/10
So that is where I am up to at the moment. I would say the gains outnumber the losses by a significant margin but I have more listening to do yet. Not perfection, but on the whole, it's getting closer.
Bigman80
18-11-2018, 16:17
Hi Macca,
Good writeup so far. I'm surprised by the Daft punk track's comments. Organisation and clarity seems to be a particular strength of the DCB1 and certainly has been my experience here. I will be interested to hear your thoughts when you get that track via the Technics CDP, not that I'm placing any blame on the Sony as they are capable players, just to eradicate the chance of remembering the Techy doing it better.
I've heard your rig and if you've made any level of improvement via the changes, it must now be very good. Personally, if I reeled off 10/10's for the songs you have, I'd be very pleased.
Well done for having the balls to give something new a try. Looking forward to the rest of the review.
Looking forward to more of your findings Macca. Keep up the good work.
Thanks, I'm trying my best. :)
Still need to listen to a lot of stuff. Haven't done Sinatra Live At the Sands yet. That's always a make or break for me. No use having a hi-f system if it can't play a bit of Frank.
The DCB1 pre-amp is a powered, unity gain Pre-amp available as a kit you make up yourself or get someone to make for you.
I bought mine from Steve (STD305M) of this parish as he has decided to build a hot-rodded version ( more here https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61230-DCB1-TURBO-BUILD-600Ma&highlight=dcb1)
Steve was generous enough to let me have it for the cost of the parts so this was not an expensive punt. Oliver (Bigman80) had already brought his over so I could have a listen to it and I was intrigued enough to obtain one for long-term evaluation.
Here's a picture of it. The case is generic Chinese but is of acceptable quality:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180906/2beb9069a5e0c4ee4e9d32a3288d28f3.jpg
At the same time as bringing over the Pre-amp Oli also brought over his Spotifire interconnects. Again I was intrigued by what they were doing so I bought a set so I could have a proper listen over time.
Due to its input sensitivity the Krell power amp I am using at the moment is not an ideal match for a passive pre-amp so I thought I'd try an alternative. Added to that although I was getting a pretty good sound I have, on a few occasions, heard systems that are another level above so I thought I would see if I could get there too. (On the cheap, obviously :) )
So this is an ongoing review of the combination of the Spotfire interconnects and the DCB1 pre-amp. Ongoing because I have not had enough of a listen yet to come to any sort of absolute opinion.
For the record the system is
Sony SCD-XB790QS cd player (I have better but they are all out of commission at the moment for one reason or another).
DCB1 pre amp
Krell KSA50 Power Amp (50 wpc 'baby' Krell from 1993)
JM Lab Electra 926 Loudspeakers (4 driver 3-way floorstanders)
Interconnects are Spotfire from cd player to pre and from pre to power. Speaker cables are some unbranded multi-strand copper cables I bought from Geoff (Walpurgis).
Since doing blind testing I have become something of an agnostic with regards to interconnects. Not to say they all sound the same but the differences tend to be small and results have as much to do with how well they get on with the boxes they connect as anything intrinsic to the cable itself. So I'm not going to concentrate on the interconnects on their own here, you can get a set on loan and see how they work out for you in your system.
The DCB1 has been compared to pre-amps costing around £3K so its reputation precedes it. I'm not much for active pre-amps on the whole as most of them are not very good. Barry of this parish owns a Mark Levinson that I would have in a second, but try finding one, and besides you would be talking £3K second hand which is too rich for my blood. So I was hoping the DCB1would be similar.
Compared to using a passive the presentation of the DCB1 is quite different. In broad terms the sound is darker but with more sparkle, the metallic nature of cymbals comes across much more vividly. Rim shots and other quick percussive sounds are more defined and hit harder. Bass is subjectively deeper, has more power and is more 'solid'. Stereo imaging is good, despite my room being a major factor here (too narrow). It's possible to sit to one side at 90 degrees from the speakers and the stereo image is still in the centre. That's unusual and a good sign.
Downsides: I have noticed only two so far. The sound is less open and subjectively 'effortless' than the passive, also when a mix gets busy the separation of instruments is not as clear cut. It's still pretty good mind, but not as good.
These traits were not so apparent on some of the recordings I played. I've found it's always a good idea to listen to a wide variety of recordings when making an assessment not just some showcase audiophile recording like you often get at shows. How a system handles a busy mix in a murky analogue recording is the real test, not how 'realistic' it sounds when playing a recording of a bloke hitting a block of wood with a stick.
Here's what I've listened to so far:
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms - first record I ever played on my first proper separates system so I always wheel this one out for testing. Couldn't find fault. Test passed 10/10
Jethro Tull - A Little Light Music - live semi acoustic set from about 1991, and my test to see if the set up can deliver the 'beauty' of the sound. In particular the instrumental 'Under Wraps' should be an entrancing aural experience. Test passed. 8/10
Boston - Third Stage - I demand that a system should be able to show up the differences in recording and production and not make everything sound like it was made in the same studio at around the same time with the same engineers. The more coloured the system, the less of a difference. This one should stand out as no other recording sounds like this (you can even hear the tape wow at some points). Test passed. 9/10
The Cult - Love: Heavy rock at high levels should remain clean and non-fatiguing regardless. If a system can't do that it's no use to me. Subjectively I thought that this seemed slightly more limited dynamically than I am used to. Not by much and I could just be recalling it from playing it through my Technics SLP1200 which is better than the Sony in this regard. But no issues with any grain or distortion. Test Passed 7/10
The Doors - LA Woman - One of the best things ever done by anyone even if it is a slightly dodgy analogue recording from 1971 - trick here is to get the rainstorm in 'Riders On The Storm' correct. Have to say I have never heard this album sounding better, the view into the studio was amazing. Passed, 10/10
Steely Dan: greatest hits 1972-78 - covers a variety of eras and productions so serves the same purpose as the Boston album. Sparkle on this that I did not have before, I was sucked into the performance even though I know every word and note of these songs and could play the whole album in my head. At this point I was starting to realise that the DCB1/Spotfire combo was pretty good. 9/10
Steely Dan - Two Against Nature - Criticised at the time (2000) for being mastered too loud have to say I have never found that. A highly polished recording that was given a highly polished presentation. Pretty much flawless 10/10.
The Blues Brothers - Original Soundtrack - good production values but this can sound too much on a system that has something dodgy going on. I've heard people talk about the sound of strings 'caressing their ears' before but never experienced that myself. But on 'Minnie The Moocher' they did just that. 10/10 again
And finally
Daft Punk - Random Access Memories - this was a bit of an eye-opener as it really showed up what the DCB1 and Spotfire were doing differently. It isn't a showcase recording by any means and when the mix was busy this was when I noticed that instrumental separation was not all it could be. Nor did it quite bop along like I am used to. The Spotfires do let through an unusual amount of bass power and weight and I don't know if this was the reason. I still enjoyed it mind, but this was a bit of a chink in the armour. 6/10
So that is where I am up to at the moment. I would say the gains outnumber the losses by a significant margin but I have more listening to do yet. Not perfection, but on the whole, it's getting closer.
Hi Macca
Great review, considering the build cost I'm more than happy with your findings.
There are a few little tweeks to make improvement on the presentation and give a little more resolution.
I have almost completed the next level up dcb1.
Improvements will be posted in my build post
I think its great that a sub 400 quid pre to perform as well as it does.
Regards Steve...
Hi Macca
Great review, considering the build cost I'm more than happy with your findings.
There are a few little tweeks to make improvement on the presentation and give a little more resolution.
I have almost completed the next level up dcb1.
Improvements will be posted in my build post
I think its great that a sub 400 quid pre to perform as well as it does.
Regards Steve...
Very true but if it were a commercial product you'd need to add manufacturer overheads and profit margin, distributor margin, dealer margin, shipping and VAT. So probably end up about two grand. Three grand if it was in a blingy case.
You've done a superb job on it, especially as it was the first one you'd built.
I'm keen to hear the hot-rod version at some point.
I tend to keep everything whether I'm using it or not...
Don't know yet. I can own kit for months before I finally decide there's something it does that I can't get on with. Hence the review being ongoing.
Might be a really good reason for a day out
This was never ment to be a commercial venture just an exersise to keep me busy. Also having limited funds gave me the chance to see if i could get better than mainstream products for less outlay, i think it was a reasonable success
S
Martin I seriously thought about buying this and running such a thread.
Great read so far. Nuances and differences are important personally when you're trying to get the best out of the shit you actually own.
I bet I would have found it equally as interesting.
Personally I dump shit pretty quick if it doesn't beat what I already have. My system remainins relatively static because of it.
Apart from valves, that is. Always messing with those. Best fine tuning instruments ever invented audio wise I think. If you can afford a substantial quality itinerary.
What I don't like is a sound that is consistently the same. I swap valves to effect changes digital filters can't achieve.
Constant change stops a boredom factor creeping in.
Martin I seriously thought about buying this and running such a thread.
Great read so far. Nuances and differences are important personally when you're trying to get the best out of the shit you actually own.
I bet I would have found it equally as interesting.
Personally I dump shit pretty quick if it doesn't beat what I already have. My system remainins relatively static because of it.
Apart from valves, that is. Always messing with those. Best fine tuning instruments ever invented audio wise I think. If you can afford a substantial quality itinerary.
What I don't like is a sound that is consistently the same. I swap valves to effect changes digital filters can't achieve.
Constant change stops a boredom factor creeping in.
I was partly motivated to get it by you telling me I needed an active with the Krell. Although I'm not sure it actually qualifies as an active. I suppose not.
Bigman80
20-11-2018, 20:44
Martin I seriously thought about buying this and running such a thread.
Great read so far. Nuances and differences are important personally when you're trying to get the best out of the shit you actually own.
I bet I would have found it equally as interesting.
Personally I dump shit pretty quick if it doesn't beat what I already have. My system remainins relatively static because of it.
Apart from valves, that is. Always messing with those. Best fine tuning instruments ever invented audio wise I think. If you can afford a substantial quality itinerary.
What I don't like is a sound that is consistently the same. I swap valves to effect changes digital filters can't achieve.
Constant change stops a boredom factor creeping in.If you're handy with a soldering iron, you could make one. If not and you want one, give me or Steve a shout.
I was partly motivated to get it by you telling me I needed an active with the Krell. Although I'm not sure it actually qualifies as an active. I suppose not.Hell I don't recall ever saying that, lest you can find the thread in which I did. I just don't think I'd specifically recommend anything other than an active valve pre with a Krell based on Krells in my system. The valve bit is important. I always find Krells too sterile.
Whatever. No system really wins in almost all aspects, no matter what the price.
Mad hobby, really.
If you're handy with a soldering iron, you could make one. If not and you want one, give me or Steve a shout.No I am mainly thinking Lumilor at the moment.
Google it:)
montesquieu
20-11-2018, 21:02
Going back 6-7 years now I ran a DCB1 for over a year as my only 'preamp' during a period when I had a high-sensitivity KT88 amp (a Tube Distinctions-modified KT88 japanese amp that was quite exceptional given how it started out, into Tannoy 15in MG GRFs).
I didn't need any gain, but I couldn't get along with any of the passives I tried (Glasshouse, S&B DIY TVC, EVA 2 LDR among others). The DCB1, which was pretty well specced in terms of components, perfomed really well in this context - it was clean, dynamic, and to my ears didn't suffer from the lack of musicality and oomph I felt when using pure passive devices.
In the end though I found a good tube preamp, of necessity low gain in this application (the SJS Model 2 that replaced it is only 6dB gain), pipped it in all departments - overall I found that the DCB1 just fell short of the holographic sense of 3D space you get with a top tube pre, while the model 2 also outclassed it for detail.
But the SJS, even at 10+ years old when I bought it, cost me nearly 10 times what the DCB1 did. The DCB1 is a seriously nice sounding thing for the money and I think hard to beat at under a couple of grand. Be interesting where this review goes.
Bigman80
20-11-2018, 21:09
Going back 6-7 years now I ran a DCB1 for over a year as my only 'preamp' during a period when I had a high-sensitivity KT88 amp (a Tube Distinctions-modified KT88 japanese amp that was quite exceptional given how it started out, into Tannoy 15in MG GRFs).
I didn't need any gain, but I couldn't get along with any of the passives I tried (Glasshouse, S&B DIY TVC, EVA 2 LDR among others). The DCB1, which was pretty well specced in terms of components, perfomed really well in this context - it was clean, dynamic, and to my ears didn't suffer from the lack of musicality and oomph I felt when using pure passive devices.
In the end though I found a good tube preamp, of necessity low gain in this application (the SJS Model 2 that replaced it is only 6dB gain), pipped it in all departments - overall I found that the DCB1 just fell short of the holographic sense of 3D space you get with a top tube pre, while the model 2 also outclassed it for detail.
But the SJS, even at 10+ years old when I bought it, cost me nearly 10 times what the DCB1 did. The DCB1 is a seriously nice sounding thing for the money and I think hard to beat at under a couple of grand. Be interesting where this review goes.Good insight into the DCB1 Tom. Can I ask what Attenuator was in it? Was it Hot-Rodded or standard?
I am convinced by the DCB1. It doesn't do anything. I like that a lot. I have used a Khozmo in it and I think that's the key. I'm not sure what Arek does in that finely finished casework bit his Khozmo works for me.
The DCB1 got more holographic at 200mA and I didn't really feel it was lacking before. That said, it was a noticeable difference.
The guy I sold mine to uses a Croft CharismaX and isn't as convinced about the DCB1 as me BUT having never heard or being able to afford a charismaX, I asked him what else he thinks would beat the DCB1. "There isn't much" he said and that to me says a lot.
My new DCB1 is costing approximately £600 to put together due to the slightly boutique nature of the components and the fancy Chassis I got for it. If there isn't much to beat it between the Level 2 DCB1 (200mA) at £400 build cost and the CharismaX (£5k) I am pretty satisfied with the value VS performance aspect.
montesquieu
20-11-2018, 21:13
Good insight into the DCB1 Tom. Can I ask what Attenuator was in it? Was it Hot-Rodded or standard?
I am convinced by the DCB1. It doesn't do anything. I like that a lot. I have used a Khozmo in it and I think that's the key. I'm not sure what Arek does in that finely finished casework bit his Khozmo works for me.
The DCB1 got more holographic at 200mA and I didn't really feel it was lacking before. That said, it was a noticeable difference.
The guy I sold mine to uses a Croft CharismaX and isn't as convinced about the DCB1 as me BUT having never heard or being able to afford a charismaX, I asked him what else he thinks would beat the DCB1. "There isn't much" he said and that to me says a lot.
My new DCB1 is costing approximately £600 to put together due to the slightly boutique nature of the components and the fancy Chassis I got for it. If there isn't much to beat it between the Level 2 DCB1 (200mA) at £400 build cost and the CharismaX (£5k) I am pretty satisfied with the value VS performance aspect.
Not hot-rodded as that approach was pretty new at the time (I think I sold it in 2012). I recall it had quite a fancy multi-regulator power supply and some top resistors and caps in it but I don't recall the details of this or of the attenuator. Bear in mind the SJS Model 2 that replaced it would easily fetch £3k now.
Bigman80
20-11-2018, 21:36
Not hot-rodded as that approach was pretty new at the time (I think I sold it in 2012). I recall it had quite a fancy multi-regulator power supply and some top resistors and caps in it but I don't recall the details of this or of the attenuator. Bear in mind the SJS Model 2 that replaced it would easily fetch £3k now.Just out of curiosity mate. Not even suggesting it would compete with the SJS. You have had some nice gear, Tom.
Interesting comments.
I only built the first dcb1 as i needed a pre to go with the Firebottle monos Alan recently built me.
I'm constantly on the lookout for improvement so when i built my preamp, my first project incidentally, i was gobsmacked at the result.
It seems a perfect match for the new monos but as usual i thought it might make a difference if i use even better quality parts and up the flow of juice through the fets!!
Which is where i am now.
Lets hope the gains i get from upping it to 600mA are as big as the ones from 60mA to 200mA, if so I will be a very happy chap indeed
It's incredible to me that something at £550ish can compete with preamps costing 2 and 3 grand
As a last word I really must thank Alan (Firebottle) he has given me quite a bit of guidance, couldnt have done this otherwise, also Oliver who's passion is incredible and VERY infectious
Krell one day mate!!!!
S.
Bigman80
20-11-2018, 21:45
Interesting comments.
I only built the first dcb1 as i needed a pre to go with the Firebottle monos Alan recently built me.
I'm constantly on the lookout for improvement so when i built my preamp, my first project incidentally, i was gobsmacked at the result.
It seems a perfect match for the new monos but as usual i thought it might make a difference if i use even better quality parts and up the flow of juice through the fets!!
Which is where i am now.
Lets hope the gains i get from upping it to 600mA are as big as the ones from 60mA to 200mA, if so I will be a very happy chap indeed
It's incredible to me that something at £550ish can compete with preamps costing 2 and 3 grand
As a last word I really must thank Alan (Firebottle) he has given me quite a bit of guidance, couldnt have done this otherwise, also Oliver who's passion is incredible and VERY infectious
S.Well, it's a bit of a stretch to compare it to £2-3k preamps when haven't had the chance to really put the DCB1 to the test. I think what should happen is when the DCB1's are built and run in, we try and get some comparisons done.
Only then can we quantify how good it is.
That said, I suspect it will be able to hang with the big boys.
montesquieu
20-11-2018, 21:47
That said, I suspect it will be able to hang with the big boys.
That was certainly my experience of it. I don't mean in the least to minimise what it can do, if you read back I've been consistently a big fan of it here.
Bigman80
20-11-2018, 21:48
That was certainly my experience of it. I don't mean in the least to minimise what it can do, if you read back I've been consistently a big fan of it here.I have Tom, you are very positive about it. It gives me good hope of getting something of rather more quality than the price tag suggests.
Hi Oliver
You know how good the 200mA was and so do I.
Comments here have been made regarding the quality of sound the dcb1 gives, you only have to look at what some people have had to spend to get better.
As for comparisons, once its finished and run in I'd be happy to see how it compares with other preamps...
S.
Sorry Oliver
My post reads rather abrupt.
Wasn't ment to.
Guess im tired...
S.
Bigman80
20-11-2018, 22:20
Sorry Oliver
My post reads rather abrupt.
Wasn't ment to.
Guess im tired...
S.[emoji1787][emoji1787] don't worry mate, I get it.
No, I agree that it's super. But, to make a qualified comment on DCB1 v £3/4/5K kit, I have to hear it.
If it wasn't of a high level of quality I wouldn't still be using it. I don't think the comparison to £3K pre-amps is unjustified. Although that doesn't mean it is flawless. Most (maybe all) components have a chink in their armour somewhere. Also no doubt there are some mediocre £3K pre-amps out there. Cost not always a guide to good SQ.
steve,when do you think yours will be finished? im eager for a listen :cool:
Bigman80
21-11-2018, 18:51
steve,when do you think yours will be finished? im eager for a listen :cool:Shouldn't be long mate, he was grafting on it yesterday. I sent him the wire for the hook up too so hopefully, soon!!!
I'm looking forward to his report.
Hi Jamie, Oliver and anyone else following this.
The dcb1 is almost complete
The switch ,Khozmo, inputs and output are wired but unfortunately my wrist has dislocated so finishing will have to wait.
I will post more pics in a day or two
Steve...
Bigman80
23-11-2018, 12:57
What a shame. My casework arrived today. Not sure when I am going to be able to build it.
Sorry to hear that Steve, I’m sure it will be worth the wait though
Some more listening:
Robert Plant: Fate Of Nations -1993 outing from Percy, one of his better solo efforts IMO with some strong tunes. And some deep bass on some of them. Again I had the perception that the sound was not as 'open' as I am used to but again this was compensated for in other areas. Particularly the depth and definition of the basslines and the successful conveyance of the metallic sounds of cymbals and the realistic percussion, especially on snare drum and rim-shots.
There's something particularly satisfying about the resolution of a deep bass note that I think most people seek but few systems provide. Previously I had thought that the JMLab speakers stop just shy of delivering that effect in its full glory, hence why I'm moving on to something bigger (Tannoy Ardens). However with this record I am now thinking that I need not bother, the JM Labs are capable of 'doing bass' far better than I had previously thought.
Sinatra - Live At The Sands - Must have had this CD 20 years (has an 'Andy's Records' sticker on it which dates it a bit). So I know it well. On a competent system with the lights down a bit and preferable being a couple of sheets to the wind it is easy to get transported to the actual event with this recording. I know many afficianados prefer the younger Sinatra but for me this one, made when he was fifty (as he mentions in the monologue), is the definitive Sinatra, on the top of his game and able to inject that bit of world-weariness into the torch songs.
Sinatra is bit more forward and isolated in the mix than I'm used to, but we are talking fractions here. And there is a slightly 'synthetic' sound to the massed horns which I can put down to the Sony CD player (all SACD capable players I have heard seem to exhibit this trait regardless of whether they are playing a SACD or a Red Book). Otherwise the sheer clarity of the presentation was a bit of a revelation. Double bass was quite obviously a double bass, not just a bass 'sound', no need to concentrate to hear that, it was just there.
Decided after listening to this album that I am going to have to put one of my better CD players back in the system as there is no question now that if there is a bottle-neck in this set-up it is the source and not this pre-amp. If you don't already have a top class, high end pre-amp and can't afford five grand or whatever to get one then see if you can pick up a DCB1, build one yourself or get someone to knock one up for you because (especially for comparatively small amount of money required to own one) it is an exceptional bit of kit and gets my full recommendation.
Bigman80
24-11-2018, 11:24
Some more listening:
Robert Plant: Fate Of Nations -1993 outing from Percy, one of his better solo efforts IMO with some strong tunes. And some deep bass on some of them. Again I had the perception that the sound was not as 'open' as I am used to but again this was compensated for in other areas. Particularly the depth and definition of the basslines and the successful conveyance of the metallic sounds of cymbals and the realistic percussion, especially on snare drum and rim-shots.
There's something particularly satisfying about the resolution of a deep bass note that I think most people seek but few systems provide. Previously I had thought that the JMLab speakers stop just shy of delivering that effect in its full glory, hence why I'm moving on to something bigger (Tannoy Ardens). However with this record I am now thinking that I need not bother, the JM Labs are capable of 'doing bass' far better than I had previously thought.
Sinatra - Live At The Sands - Must have had this CD 20 years (has an 'Andy's Records' sticker on it which dates it a bit). So I know it well. On a competent system with the lights down a bit and preferable being a couple of sheets to the wind it is easy to get transported to the actual event with this recording. I know many afficianados prefer the younger Sinatra but for me this one, made when he was fifty (as he mentions in the monologue), is the definitive Sinatra, on the top of his game and able to inject that bit of world-weariness into the torch songs.
Sinatra is bit more forward and isolated in the mix than I'm used to, but we are talking fractions here. And there is a slightly 'synthetic' sound to the massed horns which I can put down to the Sony CD player (all SACD capable players I have heard seem to exhibit this trait regardless of whether they are playing a SACD or a Red Book). Otherwise the sheer clarity of the presentation was a bit of a revelation. Double bass was quite obviously a double bass, not just a bass 'sound', no need to concentrate to hear that, it was just there.
Decided after listening to this album that I am going to have to put one of my better CD players back in the system as there is no question now that if there is a bottle-neck in this set-up it is the source and not this pre-amp. If you don't already have a top class, high end pre-amp and can't afford five grand or whatever to get one then see if you can pick up a DCB1, build one yourself or get someone to knock one up for you because (especially for comparatively small amount of money required to own one) it is an exceptional bit of kit and gets my full recommendation.Whilst I'm not surprised, the CDP is definitely the bottleneck and I believe I mentioned that.
When you get your Techie back in, I think you are going to be rewarded with a very special sound.
The DCB1 IS an absolute steal for the money. With a high quality list of components and with the right wire ([emoji6]) it's got more available. Moving up to 600mA is definitely where you need to go next mate. Unfortunately that casework is not sufficient.
A better preamp for £600 (cost of my new build) will not be found. To prove this, I have a mate with a 'The Truth's preamp. We are going to do a little bakeoff and see what comes of it. I have a truth before but in someone else's system.
I totally believe that you will have to spend big to beat this outright.
Whilst I'm not surprised, the CDP is definitely the bottleneck and I believe I mentioned that.
When you get your Techie back in, I think you are going to be rewarded with a very special sound.
The DCB1 IS an absolute steal for the money. With a high quality list of components and with the right wire ([emoji6]) it's got more available. Moving up to 600mA is definitely where you need to go next mate. Unfortunately that casework is not sufficient.
A better preamp for £600 (cost of my new build) will not be found. To prove this, I have a mate with a 'The Truth's preamp. We are going to do a little bakeoff and see what comes of it. I have a truth before but in someone else's system.
I totally believe that you will have to spend big to beat this outright.
Mate the sound is already 'special' don't get me wrong. I'm just very fussy. The quality level is already right up there with the best I've heard, but of course nothing is perfect. Added to that the presentation is very close to what I have been looking for. I think we all have some sort of ideal 'presentation' in our heads that we are aiming to get to, even though that may vary quite widely from person to person. This is closer to mine than I have got previously.
The idea of a Turbo version of the DCB1 does appeal - of course! - but I'm way over budget for this year's fun already and I still have the Tannoy build to pay for....so it will have to wait.
Bigman80
24-11-2018, 12:50
Haha, I know what you mean, it is very special. So are the cables!!
Whenever you're ready, well look at a turbo.
Mate the sound is already 'special' don't get me wrong. I'm just very fussy. The quality level is already right up there with the best I've heard, but of course nothing is perfect. Added to that the presentation is very close to what I have been looking for. I think we all have some sort of ideal 'presentation' in our heads that we are aiming to get to, even though that may vary quite widely from person to person. This is closer to mine than I have got previously.
The idea of a Turbo version of the DCB1 does appeal - of course! - but I'm way over budget for this year's fun already and I still have the Tannoy build to pay for....so it will have to wait.
Hi Martin
The version you have can very easily be turboed.
I have whats required here and not too expensive to do
It can be done in the case you have already.
Pm me if you decide thats what you want to do.
S.
Hi Martin
The version you have can very easily be turboed.
I have whats required here and not too expensive to do
It can be done in the case you have already.
Pm me if you decide thats what you want to do.
S.
That's good to know, cheers Steve.
The DCB1 IS an absolute steal for the money. With a high quality list of components and with the right wire ([emoji6]) it's got more available. Moving up to 600mA is definitely where you need to go next mate. Unfortunately that casework is not sufficient.
.
The one I heard at Steve’s was very good, I think that’s what maccas using now,what’s wrong with the case that makes it insufficient?
Bigman80
25-11-2018, 20:12
The one I heard at Steve’s was very good, I think that’s what maccas using now,what’s wrong with the case that makes it insufficient?At 600mA you'd need heat sinks in that case and possibly ventilation holes. The way to do it in that case, is extend the legs on the FETs and attach them to heatsinks. Might be a bit odd looking inside but it would work.
An all aluminium case with vent holes would be far easier as you could just attach to the chassis floor. Aluminium being more conducive than iron used in the original casework.
It's the iron construction that is the issue. For me anyway.
Decided after listening to this album that I am going to have to put one of my better CD players back in the system as there is no question now that if there is a bottle-neck in this set-up it is the source and not this pre-amp. If you don't already have a top class, high end pre-amp and can't afford five grand or whatever to get one then see if you can pick up a DCB1, build one yourself or get someone to knock one up for you because (especially for comparatively small amount of money required to own one) it is an exceptional bit of kit and gets my full recommendation.
Hi Martin
Thanks for your review.
Lets hope this new build is every bit as good as
my previous build and more !!!
Regards S.
You're up as early as me!
So dark I can't find what I did with my mug of tea.
"You're up as early as me! "
That's the trouble when you get older. ;)
Oh, I've been up for more than 2hrs, and I'm not even going to work. :lol:
I woke up and thought it was 0700, didn't realise until after I was up and made a brew that it was actually 0600. Oh well.
You're up as early as me!
So dark I can't find what I did with my mug of tea.
Yep
Bloody pain too
No point going to bed any later than i do, I'd still be up at the same time... 5.30 every morning!!!
S.
You pansies wanna try getting up a 4am every morning!��:lol:
You pansies wanna try getting up a 4am every morning!��:lol:
there's a 4 o'clock in the morning now? damn brexitt
I see you all getting up at rude early in the morning, just before I try to get a couple of hours kip until my bladder wakes me up regardless of the amount of liquid I've had :lol::D:lol::cool:
hornucopia
28-11-2018, 15:48
DCBs are nice, I had one running for quite a while. Now using a 'Stereo coffee' LDR unit which is pretty straightline too.
The KISS principle here.
As to using a better CD player......running lossless iTunes is possibly better.
Quite a lot of first-time deniers are coming round to thinking that; the ones that have got past the 'vinyl is best' phase?
DCBs are nice, I had one running for quite a while. Now using a 'Stereo coffee' LDR unit which is pretty straightline too.
The KISS principle here.
As to using a better CD player......running lossless iTunes is possibly better.
Quite a lot of first-time deniers are coming round to thinking that; the ones that have got past the 'vinyl is best' phase?
I'm sure it can probably be as good if it's all set up right, there's no reason why not, but CD does the job for me without all the mucking about. I just need to get a small cross-head screwdriver from somewhere and I can get my Parasound CDi1000 working again.
I just need to get a small cross-head screwdriver from somewhere and I can get my Parasound CDi1000 working again.
You might get one in a Christmas cracker if you're lucky.
Good idea, I'll hang on for that then.
Okay so here we are 3 months on almost. Had the chance over the past few days to do some more 'serious' listening.
I didn't get a flathead screwdriver in an Xmas cracker so the Parasound still has a disc stuck in it so still using the Sony XB790QS SACD player.
Any reservations I had expressed previously about the sound of this pre-amp (slightly dark and less open) have gone. Maybe this is the Spotfire interconnect burn in I have been told about (the cables were brand new when I got the DCB1), maybe this is just acclimatization, I don't know.
In any case sound quality now is practically at the level of 'joke good' - which is my highest rating level. Obviously this is not all attributable to the DCB1 but the combination of DCB1-Spotfire-Krell KSA50S really does hit the spot for me. This is the sort of sound I was looking for when I went out and bought my first separates system back in 1988.
It's a sound I have rarely heard even listening to systems at shows where you are into the plus £100K level. Although some of them do manage it, you never think you are going to be able to get that sound in your own home on a sensible budget. But now you can!
I'll grant you that this is very much a 'studio console' sort of sound. If you like EL84 valve amps or SETs with horns you won't be so keen; although it certainly won't offend your ears it might be a bit full on for you. I don't know. All I can say is if you are looking for an absolutely top quality sound and don't know where to go next, get yourself a Krell, a DCB1 and some of the Spotifre cables (that lot will cost you about £1500 all in), hook it up to your speakers and spend the rest of your life wondering why you didn't do this sooner. :)
Sounds ace, mate. Can't wait to hear it next time I'm down! And you've still got the Tannoys to come:eyebrows:
Marco.
Indeed. I'm also advised that there's a bit more that can be done to the DCB1 to 'max it out'. Can't imagine what that would be like.
I think it is just one of those situations where all the components come together. Like matching five reels on a slot machine.
Bigman80
11-02-2019, 21:08
Okay so here we are 3 months on almost. Had the chance over the past few days to do some more 'serious' listening.
I didn't get a flathead screwdriver in an Xmas cracker so the Parasound still has a disc stuck in it so still using the Sony XB790QS SACD player.
Any reservations I had expressed previously about the sound of this pre-amp (slightly dark and less open) have gone. Maybe this is the Spotfire interconnect burn in I have been told about (the cables were brand new when I got the DCB1), maybe this is just acclimatization, I don't know.
In any case sound quality now is practically at the level of 'joke good' - which is my highest rating level. Obviously this is not all attributable to the DCB1 but the combination of DCB1-Spotfire-Krell KSA50S really does hit the spot for me. This is the sort of sound I was looking for when I went out and bought my first separates system back in 1988.
It's a sound I have rarely heard even listening to systems at shows where you are into the plus £100K level. Although some of them do manage it, you never think you are going to be able to get that sound in your own home on a sensible budget. But now you can!
I'll grant you that this is very much a 'studio console' sort of sound. If you like EL84 valve amps or SETs with horns you won't be so keen; although it certainly won't offend your ears it might be a bit full on for you. I don't know. All I can say is if you are looking for an absolutely top quality sound and don't know where to go next, get yourself a Krell, a DCB1 and some of the Spotifre cables (that lot will cost you about £1500 all in), hook it up to your speakers and spend the rest of your life wondering why you didn't do this sooner. :)Told ya! [emoji1787][emoji1787]
Seriously, the burn in effect is 100% real and not a trick of the mind. I can replicate this now with regularly. The SPOTFIRE do require 100hrs to open up and settle down.
The DCB1 is possibly my best find. Thankfully, there is more to get from yours. Judiciously replacing 8 resistors with some very select 0.1% resistors (no, not telling anyone what brand they are) will yield a step forward in resolution. However, the trick to really allowing the DCB1 to shine, is to push it up past 700mA. If you can get to 1.2A, or near it, the difference is in the soundstage with superb air and space. Honestly, it's worth it. I am happy to bring mine up and you can hear for yourself.
As for your Krell, well, it inspired my own purchase of one. The Krell is on par with anything I've heard under £20k. Call that bullshit if you like but it's how I feel. I love mine.
The combo of DCB1, SPOTFIRE and Krell is divinity. It's not limited though to having a Krell like amplifier. I've had the DCB1 on Valve amps and Solid state amps and never has it failed to impress.
I won't discuss the SPOTFIRE as I am entirely biased [emoji1787]
Well done for bring brave enough to to step out of the big brand umbrella. It's where all the value is.
Now, when do you want to hear the Phonostage [emoji23]
Yes the burn in! I don't know. I've not got 100 hours on them I don't think anyway. Lost track.
I don't know about all Krells but certainly the KSA100 mk2 and the KSA50s are as good as anything I've heard at any price.
I'll look at maxing out the DCB1 in the fairly near future, certainly before I 'retire' next year. As for the phono stage that's like offering crack to an addict whose just got out of 12 harrowing months in rehab...I'll have to try to resist the temptation. :D
Yes the burn in! I don't know. I've not got 100 hours on them I don't think anyway. Lost track.
I don't know about all Krells but certainly the KSA100 mk2 and the KSA50s are as good as anything I've heard at any price.
I'll look at maxing out the DCB1 in the fairly near future, certainly before I 'retire' next year. As for the phono stage that's like offering crack to an addict whose just got out of 12 harrowing months in rehab...I'll have to try to resist the temptation. :D
Hi Martin,
Any time you'd like your dcb1 maxing just let me know and ill pop up and max it for you.
I have the parts and heatsinks required already
Regards Steve...
Bigman80
11-02-2019, 22:22
Hi Martin,
Any time you'd like your dcb1 maxing just let me know and ill pop up and max it for you.
I have the parts and heatsinks required already
Regards Steve...
Yes Steve. You know the craic. It's well worth doing isnt it.
Bigman80
11-02-2019, 22:25
Yes the burn in! I don't know. I've not got 100 hours on them I don't think anyway. Lost track.
I don't know about all Krells but certainly the KSA100 mk2 and the KSA50s are as good as anything I've heard at any price.
I'll look at maxing out the DCB1 in the fairly near future, certainly before I 'retire' next year. As for the phono stage that's like offering crack to an addict whose just got out of 12 harrowing months in rehab...I'll have to try to resist the temptation. :D
I'll bring you a phonostage to try, with your TT and MM cart, You'll be shaken to the core and even more so when you hear the price.
Hi Martin,
Any time you'd like your dcb1 maxing just let me know and ill pop up and max it for you.
I have the parts and heatsinks required already
Regards Steve...
Just relied to your PM mate, yes we can do that if you fancy the trek all the way up here.
I'll bring you a phonostage to try, with your TT and MM cart, You'll be shaken to the core and even more so when you hear the price.
I'd love to give it a listen but I am out of vinyl for good. Going to start selling it all next year I think. Although that won't be an easy thing for me to do. I was a big time vinyl aficionado in my youth but I gradually got drawn in to the digital dark side. Easier it is. More seductive. :)
Bigman80
11-02-2019, 22:57
I'd love to give it a listen but I am out of vinyl for good. Going to start selling it all next year I think. Although that won't be an easy thing for me to do. I was a big time vinyl aficionado in my youth but I gradually got drawn in to the digital dark side. Easier it is. More seductive. :)
Fair enough mate, hope i still have first dibs on a pick-over?
Yes come up anytime and you can have a look through and have what you want.
Bigman80
11-02-2019, 23:33
Yes come up anytime and you can have a look through and have what you want.Top man.
We'll sort it out when the speaker thing happens.
Yes Steve. You know the craic. It's well worth doing isnt it.
Hi Oliver
I've built 5 dcb1 each a little better than the previous just by making little changes.
My last build was a dual mono which took quite a while due to illnes then family problems but so far it seems like it was worth it.
I think the dcb1 is one hell of a piece of kit and in my opinion can't be bettered for the money.
Also, having heard your system several times there is no doubting that the krell dcb1 comobo works, thats why I'm now saving hard to get me a krell.
Steve..
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 08:20
Hi Oliver
I've built 5 dcb1 each a little better than the previous just by making little changes.
My last build was a dual mono which took quite a wkile due to illnes then family problems but so far it seems like it was worth it.
I think the dcb1 is one hell of a piece of kit and in my opinion can't be bettered for the money.
Also, having heard your system several times there is no doubting that the krell dcb1 comobo works, thats why I'm now saving hard to get me a krell.
Steve..You know it makes sense!
Ami now going to have to follow suit and build a dual Mono DCB1 [emoji54]
You know it makes sense!
Ami now going to have to follow suit and build a dual Mono DCB1 [emoji54]
Dual mono sounds a good idea.:thumbsup:
I agree Krell plus DCB1 is silly good.
Also the advantage of a unity gain pre-amp with a digital source - no pointless gain stage to add distortion but none of the matching issues to the power amp that you can get with a passive pre.
My only reservation with the DCB1 is the blue LED - need to upgrade that to one of the proper colours ;)
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 08:47
Dual mono sounds a good idea.[emoji106]It does tempt me but new transformer and another board to buy and populate puts me off a little.
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 08:48
I agree Krell plus DCB1 is silly good.
Also the advantage of a unity gain pre-amp with a digital source - no pointless gain stage to add distortion but none of the matching issues to the power amp that you can get with a passive pre.
My only reservation with the DCB1 is the blue LED - need to upgrade that to one of the proper colours ;)I've got some yellow ones. I like them lol
Yellow was what I was thinking, yellow or orange.
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 09:02
Yellow was what I was thinking, yellow or orange.You can have a FREE led [emoji23][emoji23]
I paid £1.29 for 100 lol
Dual mono sounds a good idea.:thumbsup:
Hi James
The dual mono was just something i thought I'd try, seems to have worked but it's twice the cost as you have to fully stuff both boards
Steve...
Hi James
The dual mono was just something i thought I'd try, seems to have worked but it's twice the cost as you have to fully stuff both boards
Steve...
Hi Steve, How are you. Good stuff going on with the Dcb1. I heard Olis the other day into the amazing Krell KSA 100, I was so impressed I have been looking at Krell's this morning. Plenty about for around £1500-£2000 so seem good value. Only problem is the SIZE!
Going back to the Dcb1 - dual mono does sound a good choice as you will get excellent signal separation. Do you put this through a single Khozmo?
Hi James
You have the coice of one or two Khozmo.
I personally chose 1 because both channels are separate
No connection in any way
The size of the Krell is an issue for me too as i live in a small adapted bungalow,but i will get one in somehow
Steve..
Hi James
You have the coice of one or two Khozmo.
I personally chose 1 because both channels are separate
No connection in any way
The size of the Krell is an issue for me too as i live in a small adapted bungalow,but i will get one in somehow
Steve..
Maybe a small extension!:lol:
They're not that big! I live in a little 2 bed terrace and I managed to jam one in somehow. It won't fit in the equipment rack, but then you can't have everything.
I'm tempted at trying the DCB1 in my system again. I had one before but to me it sounded a bit edgy when driven harder. It sounds like ( pardon the pun ), that this isn't an issue with the ones that I've seen you all build here.
I subsequently found out that the board in the one I had wasn't the best so I'd be keen to try one again as I have a buyer for my Velleman valve pre amp so might be short of a pre soon lol.
Does anyone have one I could borrow? I'll pay post both ways of course.
If I liked it could someone build me one and if so how much would a finished one be?
I'm tempted at trying the DCB1 in my system again. I had one before but to me it sounded a bit edgy when driven harder. It sounds like ( pardon the pun ), that this isn't an issue with the ones that I've seen you all build here.
I subsequently found out that the board in the one I had wasn't the best so I'd be keen to try one again as I have a buyer for my Velleman valve pre amp so might be short of a pre soon lol.
Does anyone have one I could borrow? I'll pay post both ways of course.
If I liked it could someone build me one and if so how much would a finished one be?
Let me know if you'd like another dcb1, i still have spare boards and parts.
Could have ine built and posted in 3 days !!!
Steve
Let me know if you'd like another dcb1, i still have spare boards and parts.
Could have ine built and posted in 3 days !!!
StevePm sent [emoji6]
Let me know if you'd like another dcb1, i still have spare boards and parts.
Could have one built and posted in 3 days !!!
Steve
The Chinese have got no chance whilst we've still got people like Steve :lol:
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 14:50
He's a good egg is Steve.
Mikey, let it bed in!
He's a good egg is Steve.
Mikey, let it bed in!
Yes, have to confess that although I am highly sceptical about 'burn in' mine did seem to sound a little better each time I used it. The slight bit of congestion I reported when I first had it is now conspicuous by its absence.
I'm tempted at trying the DCB1 in my system again. I had one before but to me it sounded a bit edgy when driven harder. It sounds like ( pardon the pun ), that this isn't an issue with the ones that I've seen you all build here.
I subsequently found out that the board in the one I had wasn't the best so I'd be keen to try one again as I have a buyer for my Velleman valve pre amp so might be short of a pre soon lol.
Does anyone have one I could borrow? I'll pay post both ways of course.
If I liked it could someone build me one and if so how much would a finished one be?
Hi Mike
Price kinda depends on fit and finnish,
type of volume control, critical resisters and case.
I guess your looking at a price from £430 up over.
That would be for one fitted with a Khozmo 50k series attenuator, Elma 2 pole 6 way switch, Dale 1% resistors
If you start adding Audio Note Tantalum or silver resistors or changing the 2 x 0.22 wima caps for Jupiter caps then the price creeps up.
Just an idea of price.
Steve...
Hi Mike
Price kinda depends on fit and finnish,
type of volume control, critical resisters and case.
I guess your looking at a price from £430 up over.
That would be for one fitted with a Khozmo 50k series attenuator, Elma 2 pole 6 way switch, Dale 1% resistors
If you start adding Audio Note Tantalum or silver resistors or changing the 2 x 0.22 wima caps for Jupiter caps then the price creeps up.
Just an idea of price.
Steve...Hi,
Thanks for that, I'll give it some thought. If I sell my Velleman I might give it a try.
keith1962
21-02-2019, 16:08
Hi Mike
Price kinda depends on fit and finnish,
type of volume control, critical resisters and case.
I guess your looking at a price from £430 up over.
That would be for one fitted with a Khozmo 50k series attenuator, Elma 2 pole 6 way switch, Dale 1% resistors
If you start adding Audio Note Tantalum or silver resistors or changing the 2 x 0.22 wima caps for Jupiter caps then the price creeps up.
Just an idea of price.
Steve...Have you tried the Jupiter caps Steve?
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