View Full Version : Step-up Transformer
gazcarts
21-04-2010, 19:47
Hi all,
Looks like I've managed to get a good deal on an ex-demo Croft Acoustic RIAA phono stage. I currently have a high output MC cartridge (Dynavector 10x5), but if I did decide to go down the road of low output MC cart, what step-up transformer should I invest in, given the rest of my system?
Again, I don't want to spend a fortune. I'm intending to cover the cost of the Croft by selling my Lehmann Black Cube SE, which of course handles low output MC carts.
Or should I just stick to high output carts?
Thanks again
Regards
Ammonite Audio
21-04-2010, 19:59
On the basis of my visit to Martin's, I have taken the plunge and one of these http://www.bobsdevices.com/cinemag.htm is on its way from the States. With an AT33PTG, it did produce a most impressive performance, for very reasonable money.
hifi_dave
21-04-2010, 20:13
The Puresound T10 is an excellent device but it does depend on your budget.
gazcarts
21-04-2010, 20:33
I had seen both of those suggestions; 300 quid though! Is the extra outlay going to produce significant improvements over a high output cart such as my 10x5?
Why hasn't Glenn Croft produced an MC stage then?
Regards
hifi_dave
21-04-2010, 21:12
Because Glenn is a London/Decca man and when you have one of those singing, there is not much else worth bothering with...:eyebrows:
Actually, Glenn did make MC phono stages many years ago but was never happy with the results.
On the basis of my visit to Martin's, I have taken the plunge and one of these
Excellent stuff, Hugo, I love my CineMag SUT. It gave such a lift in performance over using the AT33PTG direct into the MC input that I was really quite shocked.
Erm, and who enlightened you to that fact, dear chap? ;)
SUTs rule! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oh yes, listening to your A23 SUT certainly made me break mine out of storage and get it going with the Whest. I had actually bought it to solve a different problem but in the end it was a total rediscovery.
Hi Gary,
Hi all,
Looks like I've managed to get a good deal on an ex-demo Croft Acoustic RIAA phono stage. I currently have a high output MC cartridge (Dynavector 10x5), but if I did decide to go down the road of low output MC cart, what step-up transformer should I invest in, given the rest of my system?
I'm a firm believer in that (if possible) MC cartridges and SUTs should be designed together by the same manufacturer, so that the electrical requirements of a specific cartridge (gain, loading, etc) are optimised, and both are voiced to perform as a matched pair. This is precisely why the A23 SUT works so well with the Denon DL-103.
Therefore, rather than buying *any* SUT available, the question I'd ask is which low output MC cartridge did you have in mind? With that information, I can try and give a suitable recommendation :)
Or should I just stick to high output carts?
Nope. In my opinion, high output MCs are a massive sonic compromise. Budget models such as the Denon DL-110/160 are fine, but I wouldn't waste money on anything more expensive.
If you don't go down the low output MC/SUT route, you'd be far better going for the likes of a Decca, like Dave says (with a different arm), or one of the superb new Nagaoka MMs on the market, both of which would sound amazing through the Croft's fabulous all-valve MM phono stage.
I hope that helps! :cool:
Marco.
My AT-650 SUT didn´t rule with my Troika I´m afraid. My Hagerman Piccolo head amp walks all over it into my P10. And it´s quieter.
Hi Chris,
I should've said 'properly matched SUTs and MCs rule' ;)
What made you think the AT-650 would work well with a Troika?
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Nothing at all made me think that. It was just there in my system after giving up with my 103Pro in my Ittok and selling it on as well as my Haufes. i had to use it while my Hagerman was being built. It took nigh on 9 months to sort it - boxes, power supply, Black gates, Shinkohs etc. etc. I sometimes think it would have been easier to change my arm after all. At one point, I had to use my ancient rega elys and after hearing it into my P10 I have a sneaking suspicion we´ll all go back to MMs one day.
Ammonite Audio
22-04-2010, 11:52
Excellent stuff, Hugo, I love my CineMag SUT. It gave such a lift in performance over using the AT33PTG direct into the MC input that I was really quite shocked.
I've got an AT33PTG coming too!
I've got an AT33PTG coming too!
Good move. Just set your GCPH to 50dB gain and 47k load, the SUT gain to Low (24dB) and you'll be away.
gazcarts
22-04-2010, 13:02
or one of the superb new Nagaoka MMs on the market, both of which would sound amazing through the Croft's fabulous all-valve MM phono stage.
Thanks Marco,
I inquired about one of the Nagaokas in my other thread on my Akai TT, albeit a lowly MP-110. Which ones would you recommend?
Regards
The best one you can afford, Gary - lol!
One thing about the current Nagaoka range is that performance is directly related to price, so the further up the range you go, the better the cartridge you get, which is not necessarily the case in ranges from other manufacturers...
Have a look, and take your pick:
http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html
What I would say is that things don't get serious until the MP-150, and if you can afford it, the MP-300 probably offers the best all-round sound-per-pound value :)
An MP-300 would certainly stun you through the MM Croft phono stage and likely make you forget all about (affordable) MC carts!
Marco.
The AT650 or 630 aren't bad as general purpose predictable SUT's (I use an AT630) and are worth having as a standby at least. The Supex 900E, Ortofon MC30 Super and Stilton OC9 are all fine into it, the mid suckout of the Supex and slightly "raw" OC9 top both perfectly audible through it, but I'd love the chance to try something better as the turntable changes are so close to happening...
Ammonite Audio
23-04-2010, 07:48
I haven't received my Cinemag equipped SUT from www.bobsdevices.com yet, but last night my mate Tony brought round his very expensive Kondo SUT, so that I could play around with the DL-103 in more optimum conditions. The Denon did indeed sound much better through the SUT than straight into the GCPH, but not much, irrespective of loading and gain settings on the Kondo. The big surprise was my old AT-OC5 which turned in a really rather stunning performance through the Kondo, where previously it had just been rather pleasant. I hope it will do as well through the Bobs Devices SUT, but I shall certainly have its stylus checked out and take it a bit more seriously from now on. How good is the AT33PTG going to be? We shall see, or rather hear in due course, but I do reckon that it will be very good indeed!
Ammonite Audio
28-04-2010, 19:37
The Bobs Devices SUT arrived today, unfortunately with a bill for import duty and VAT! No matter, it does the business! I've not tried the DL-103 yet, but the old AT-OC5 is astonishingly good through this SUT - the dynamics are so much better than I have heard from this cartridge before. Above all, everything sounds just "right" - really nicely balanced and musical. Presumably these SUTs bed in over time, so things should get better, particularly when the AT33PTG arrives (with a tax bill, probably).
Glad it's doing the biz for you, Hugo. Your findings match mine (and what you heard in my system), it's a really impressive SUT for the money.
I seem to remember I got a duty/VAT bill for the SUT but not the cartridge. It's always a lottery importing gear but the prices start out keen, which is the reason for doing it in the first place.
pure sound
29-04-2010, 09:30
Which setting is preferable for the OC-5? Do also say which is preferable for the 103. I think the Cinemags are a modern day take on the Altec 4722, which offered 38 and 150 ohm. (1:36 & 1:18) I'd guess the lower ratio (higher impedance) might suit the 103 better.
For the AT33PTG (and presumably the OC9 and OC5), the low gain setting is preferable, giving 24dB and 184 Ohm loading.
Ammonite Audio
29-04-2010, 11:19
I asked Bob at Bobs Devices whether the Cinemag SUT would be suitable for the AT33PTG and the DL-103, running into my GCPH. He said that the Cinemag in low gain mode (1:16) will match both cartridges and work well with the GCPH. I've not done any maths to confirm that, but the OC5 is happy with the low gain setting.
I hope I would not cause any altercations from any of you, especially Macro. Hehe! :lol:
Is it better to use a dedicated MC phono stage rather than a MM stage with transformer?
It is my perception that the extra cable and connections would impair the sound, to a certain degree, not to mention the extra cost and space to accommodate the additional unit. I am in the’ less is more’ camp.
My Whest can do MC direct in, but I still prefer the sound with the SUT, if that answers your question.
I have several phono stages, head amps and transformers in my collection and I have done quite a few comparisons with and without transformers. I always find the extra cable changes/masks the sound slightly. It is like a sort of colourations introduced by the extra cable. The sound is more pure and transparent without the transformer and cable.
Hi King,
If that's what you hear, then that's what you hear :)
Is it better to use a dedicated MC phono stage rather than a MM stage with transformer?
There is no universal or definitive answer to that, as there are quite simply too many variables.
In my experience, some MC cartridges, such as the DL-103 (and Martin's AT-33PTG), perform optimally when used through an SUT, regardless of any coloration rendered by partnering cables, as the sonic benefits of using an SUT grossly outweigh the negative effect (if one can hear any) of colorations caused by employing the use of extra cables.
Other cartridges perform better used straight into an active MC stage - I'm afraid you just have to suck it and see.
Everything in audio is a compromise - you just have to choose which suit you best! :cool:
Marco.
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