Characteristics of different CDPs, and CD vs Vinyl.

[Mikeandvan]

I have a few records, such as S. Wonder Innervisions where there is much sibilance on certain tracks, namely the first one. Also on Bowies 'Sound & vision'. Having owned very few cds apart from classical, I thought I'd try these lps on cd to see the difference, and lo and behold the sibilance that was there with every single TT and cart I've used has vanished with the cd version. And even though my TT set up is the best its been the cd version still seems to throw up more detail, although it has a glassy quality that isn't so nice, still overall the sq is pretty damn good. CDP is a rather handsome Pioneer PD-8700. I don't want to change - not yet anyway -as this player is mint, but was wondering whether different cdps have different presentations in a way that different TTs and cartridges do? First things first though, I need to go out and buy meself a shit load of cds. They both trounce my streaming set up, but that is only live streaming via iTunes through a Pioneer N-70.

[paulf-2007]

Is the kit in your signature current Mike, I found the DL110 too lively and prone to sibilance in the set up I had at the time,

[Sherwood]

I have a few records, such as S. Wonder Innervisions where there is much sibilance on certain tracks, namely the first one. Also on Bowies 'Sound & vision'. Having owned very few cds apart from classical, I thought I'd try these lps on cd to see the difference, and lo and behold the sibilance that was there with every single TT and cart I've used has vanished with the cd version. And even though my TT set up is the best its been the cd version still seems to throw up more detail, although it has a glassy quality that isn't so nice, still overall the sq is pretty damn good. CDP is a rather handsome Pioneer PD-8700. I don't want to change - not yet anyway -as this player is mint, but was wondering whether different cdps have different presentations in a way that different TTs and cartridges do? First things first though, I need to go out and buy meself a shit load of cds. They both trounce my streaming set up, but that is only live streaming via iTunes through a Pioneer N-70.

I remember listening to a hifi demo which played Springsteen's Thunder Road. It was one of the most memorable experiences of my life but the ffffffffffffffffffffff sound on "show a little faith" nearly blew me off my chair. I have heard this track so many times and never heard the same, emphasis again. I cannot explain this but I miss it. Am I only in this experience?

[Mikeandvan]

Is the kit in your signature current Mike, I found the DL110 too lively and prone to sibilance in the set up I had at the time,

Yes, but I'm currently using the Nag MP200, the sibilance persists, but only with a few records, so I'm guessing the problem is with the format - vinyl - or pressings? It doesn't exist on cd, and that made me question vinyls validity, but of course the overall presentation of vinyl is what keeps interest in it, I guess we accept the odd quirk. But also that may'be there were warmer cdps? Or just that the sound of cds varies at all?

[Mikeandvan]

I remember listening to a hifi demo which played Springsteen's Thunder Road. It was one of the most memorable experiences of my life but the ffffffffffffffffffffff sound on "show a little faith" nearly blew me off my chair. I have heard this track so many times and never heard the same, emphasis again. I cannot explain this but I miss it. Am I only in this experience?

I'll play it tomorrow and let you know!

[walpurgis]

Does it occur with both phono stages?

[Mikeandvan]

Does it occur with both phono stages?

yes, its occurred with many TT set ups, phono stages, amps I've had over the last 10 years. If you have the records yourself you might know. Or may'be they're just slightly faulty pressings? I always assumed it was a difficult passage that the stylus couldn't handle. I rarely play cds so was surprised when it sounded so smooth, with more depth and detail! But as I stated 'glassy' sounding, I guess that means it doesn't have the organic sound of vinyl, if that's the right phrase. The Mp200 cart is doing quite amazing things with my vinyl at the minute, for someone who's used to budget carts, this is only £260 from Japan, and then replacement stylus's are only £100 from some dealers, I can't believe people spend £10000s on mcs! but now I'd like to try out cd versions of a few of my vinyl lps………………………...

[Macca]

I'd say the glassy sound is due to the amplifier; CD through Naim amps (and a lot of other amps for that matter) can be like that. But yes, all CD players do have their own take on things just like any component.

The sibilance could be due to any number of things because there are so many variables in vinyl playback. It *probably* isn't the records themselves although it can't be said for certain. But if your cartridge set up is even slightly out that would cause it. Perfect vinyl replay demands perfect set up!

[Primalsea]

Could it have been due to an issue during the recording stage which was corrected in some way when mastered for CD? you would hope that any recordings with problems would have had some attempt at being fixed before being released for CD format.

[Macca]

Could it have been due to an issue during the recording stage which was corrected in some way when mastered for CD? you would hope that any recordings with problems would have had some attempt at being fixed before being released for CD format.

Professional recordings from top studios by big name artists like Wonder and Bowie? I doubt that they would sign off on anything with such an obvious flaw. I doubt the engineers would just say 'Bit of sibilance on those vocals Dave, shall we fix it? Nah can't be arsed. Just stick it out like that.'

[struth]

on cd's its often the amp/speaker combo. on vinyl its usually bad setup or duff cart/stylus, or a mix of both, or again amp/speaker interaction; ie the amp is struggling to provide enough current

[Primalsea]

Professional recordings from top studios by big name artists like Wonder and Bowie? I doubt that they would sign off on anything with such an obvious flaw. I doubt the engineers would just say 'Bit of sibilance on those vocals Dave, shall we fix it? Nah can't be arsed. Just stick it out like that.'

Fair point. Well, you would hope that was the way it was anyway.

[Macca]

Fair point. Well, you would hope that was the way it was anyway.

In my limited experience studio engineers are total obsessives. Worse than hi-fi people. So I reckon so.

[Mikeandvan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDamvrfUbQ

Listen to the very first bars of this youtube sample and you will hear exactly what I mean. It must be cymbal, but it goes psssssssst.

[Macca]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDamvrfUbQ

Listen to the very first bars of this youtube sample and you will hear exactly what I mean. It must be cymbal, but it goes psssssssst.

Can't tell anything listening to some rotten You tube transfer on laptop speakers. And I don't have that song on vinyl or cd to compare. Have you got this on vinyl? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9Xk-VoGqo if so try it, if it's making a mess of that ride cymbal that goes on all the way through then it's some sort of issue with your turntable set-up.

[Stratmangler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDamvrfUbQ

Listen to the very first bars of this youtube sample and you will hear exactly what I mean. It must be cymbal, but it goes psssssssst.

It's on the CD, and yes it is annoying.

[Stratmangler]

Can't tell anything listening to some rotten You tube transfer on laptop speakers. And I don't have that song on vinyl or cd to compare. Have you got this on vinyl? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9Xk-VoGqo if so try it, if it's making a mess of that ride cymbal that goes on all the way through then it's some sort of issue with your turntable set-up.

It's a heavily compressed and gated hi-hat.

[Macca]

It's a heavily compressed and gated hi-hat.

Okay but it's a tough challenge for a vinyl set-up to reproduce it properly was my point. Don't have the Bowie so I don't have a frame of reference for that.

[GrahamS]

Sibilance can be caused by poor quality interconnect cables. I had the same problem with sibilance until I invested in good quality interconnects.

[Pigmy Pony]

I bought the single when it came out, bought the album, and have it on a couple of best of's, on vinyl and CD, and I can tell you that spitty-sounding "cymbal" has ALWAYS been there. I was always aware of this and just accepted it as part of the song.

What sounds interesting and a bit different to one person can sound gratingly wrong to another. I would suggest either learning to live with it, or just skip over to the next track. :)

[paulf-2007]

I listened to every version on Spotify, every one sounds crap at the start, like it was meant to be like that, God and Bowie only know why. That is frisbee material

[mikmas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDamvrfUbQ

Listen to the very first bars of this youtube sample and you will hear exactly what I mean. It must be cymbal, but it goes psssssssst.

The youtube version is crap reproduction and the repeated hihat hit comes out the worse for it.

I have a CD version and would say that from many years playing drums in my youth, that is precisely what an ever so slightly open hihat sounds like and is IMV intentional
The amount of 'sibilance' a hihat produces when hit is directly affected by the pressure applied on the foot pedal and (to a lesser extent) the weight of and force applied to the drumstick.

Full pressure closure will simply give a slightly metallic tick ... the lesser the pressure the more the cymbals will 'slish' against each other.

[Mikeandvan]

Can't tell anything listening to some rotten You tube transfer on laptop speakers. And I don't have that song on vinyl or cd to compare. Have you got this on vinyl? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9Xk-VoGqo if so try it, if it's making a mess of that ride cymbal that goes on all the way through then it's some sort of issue with your turntable set-up.

No, don;t know the band. I'll check them out.

[Macca]

No, don;t know the band. I'll check them out.

:eek: Best band ever!

[Stratmangler]

:eek: Best band ever!

Yeah, I was shocked too!:eek::eek::eek:

[Mikeandvan]

Just got my bargain mint Hendrix cd of Axis bold as love, from ebay, £2! It's better than the vinyl version - red polydor 80s reissue, less congested. This could be the way to go now that cds are 10 a penny, I mean why not? Finally getting over my digital phobia...……….

[AJSki2fly]

I have a few records, such as S. Wonder Innervisions where there is much sibilance on certain tracks, namely the first one. Also on Bowies 'Sound & vision'. Having owned very few cds apart from classical, I thought I'd try these lps on cd to see the difference, and lo and behold the sibilance that was there with every single TT and cart I've used has vanished with the cd version. And even though my TT set up is the best its been the cd version still seems to throw up more detail, although it has a glassy quality that isn't so nice, still overall the sq is pretty damn good. CDP is a rather handsome Pioneer PD-8700. I don't want to change - not yet anyway -as this player is mint, but was wondering whether different cdps have different presentations in a way that different TTs and cartridges do? First things first though, I need to go out and buy meself a shit load of cds. They both trounce my streaming set up, but that is only live streaming via iTunes through a Pioneer N-70.

OK I think I may have a possible explanation for you. Firstly I believe you say it is not occurring with all LPs, this is important as it indicates a problem with some only, so it is not likely to be you TT set up. I had a very similar experience with several LP's and one in particular highlighted it very much, this was a copy of Genesis - and Then There Were Three, this is a particularly long at 51 minutes to fit onto a vinyl so any vagaries which pressing it will impact it heavily, especially on tracks near at the centre of the record. So when I purchased it as a very clean near mint copy I eagerly put it on and I was immediately somewhat disappointed, there was quite a bit of sibilance and it just did not sound right, certainly not as I remembered. I did a bit of investigation and found that in the UK/EU there were hundreds of thousands of pressings made of this record and often long runs on each pressing run. So I took the plunge and ordered online a Canadian copy, knowing that only tens of thousands were produce for Canada and a separate pressing run. The result between the two was challenged and cheese. Either greater care had been given to the CA pressing or the UK one was produced near the end of the life of the stamper it was taken from. I suspect this may be the issue with some of the records you are experiencing distortion on. It might be trying another copy of Innervisions, borrow or purchase one. I hope this helps.

[Mikeandvan]

OK I think I may have a possible explanation for you. Firstly I believe you say it is not occurring with all LPs, this is important as it indicates a problem with some only, so it is not likely to be you TT set up. I had a very similar experience with several LP's and one in particular highlighted it very much, this was a copy of Genesis - and Then There Were Three, this is a particularly long at 51 minutes to fit onto a vinyl so any vagaries which pressing it will impact it heavily, especially on tracks near at the centre of the record. So when I purchased it as a very clean near mint copy I eagerly put it on and I was immediately somewhat disappointed, there was quite a bit of sibilance and it just did not sound right, certainly not as I remembered. I did a bit of investigation and found that in the UK/EU there were hundreds of thousands of pressings made of this record and often long runs on each pressing run. So I took the plunge and ordered online a Canadian copy, knowing that only tens of thousands were produce for Canada and a separate pressing run. The result between the two was challenged and cheese. Either greater care had been given to the CA pressing or the UK one was produced near the end of the life of the stamper it was taken from. I suspect this may be the issue with some of the records you are experiencing distortion on. It might be trying another copy of Innervisions, borrow or purchase one. I hope this helps.

Thanks, I think I'm just gonna be buying cds from now on! I'm currently buying up many of my vinyl lps on cd to hear the difference, they are so cheap off Ebay that it doesn't feel like a waste of money. I'm hearing some good results so far. With cd beating vinyl in most cases, or matching it. Although I got a copy of Beefhearts 1st LP on cd, and I preferred the vinyl. Currently hunting down 80s/90s Blue note cds mastered by Ron McMaster, the good folks over at PFM assure me they are the sweet point on that label, cheap and high quality, better than the RVG remasters apparently. I think further listening will tell me which genres are best suited to vinyl or cd.

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks, I think I'm just gonna be buying cds from now on! I'm currently buying up many of my vinyl lps on cd to hear the difference, they are so cheap off Ebay that it doesn't feel like a waste of money. I'm hearing some good results so far. With cd beating vinyl in most cases, or matching it. Although I got a copy of Beefhearts 1st LP on cd, and I preferred the vinyl. Currently hunting down 80s/90s Blue note cds mastered by Ron McMaster, the good folks over at PFM assure me they are the sweet point on that label, cheap and high quality, better than the RVG remasters apparently. I think further listening will tell me which genres are best suited to vinyl or cd.

You may find it a bit hit and miss with rock and pop, early cds from 80’s and even into the early 90’s can be poor IMO due to bad transcription to digital, due to either equipment used or lack of care taken. I have generally found if an album has been re-issued on cd as remastered it is better than the first offering. However there are exceptions , the Led Zeppelin double remastered that was releases in the 90’s I find dull an un-involving, but the later remastered albums are good. Some albums produced in the 80’s are good across the board, a good example being Peter Gabriel’s -So, in fact just last night I and a friend were doing blind comparisons between the lp, Cd and Flac versions, we could just flick from one to other on the pure amp, we could just identify the digital, but it was quite a subtle difference to the lp. But between cd and Flac it was impossible. We both preferred the lp, slighlty warmer, but the digital gave slightly more high end detail. So it’s up to what you like really in that situation.

Have fun hunting CDs

[Macca]

You may find it a bit hit and miss with rock and pop, early cds from 80’s and even into the early 90’s can be poor IMO due to bad transcription to digital, due to either equipment used or lack of care taken. I have generally found if an album has been re-issued on cd as remastered it is better than the first offering.


With odd exceptions I've found the opposite to be true and I actively seek out the early releases. Far from being bad transcriptions (it really is not difficult to make an excellent digital copy of an analogue recording) they are actually very good, dynamic range tends to be better (massively so in some cases) and that does mean they will sound a little thin at low volume, increasing the volume is the solution.

[AJSki2fly]

You may find it a bit hit and miss with rock and pop, early cds from 80’s and even into the early 90’s can be poor IMO due to bad transcription to digital, due to either equipment used or lack of care taken. I have generally found if an album has been re-issued on cd as remastered it is better than the first offering.




With odd exceptions I've found the opposite to be true and I actively seek out the early releases. Far from being bad transcriptions (it really is not difficult to make an excellent digital copy of an analogue recording) they are actually very good, dynamic range tends to be better (massively so in some cases) and that does mean they will sound a little thin at low volume, increasing the volume is the solution.


Sorry but I have to disagree, I have multiple couples of several albums where the original is definitely inferior to a later copy. I also work with an recording engineer who was involved in some of the early digitising and he is of the same opinion. Obviously there are CD's as from early on that were well done at the start.

[Macca]

Sorry but I have to disagree, I have multiple couples of several albums where the original is definitely inferior to a later copy. I also work with an recording engineer who was involved in some of the early digitising and he is of the same opinion. Obviously there are CD's as from early on that were well done at the start.

I don't dispute there is the occasional poor one* but that's probably still true today. As for the reasons why I don't know but engineers not knowing what they were doing seems highly unlikely to be the reason. Using a poor quality master tape could be one reason, not all CDs were made from the original master of course.

* unless we are talking classical music where my experience is zero.

[AJSki2fly]

I don't dispute there is the occasional poor one* but that's probably still true today. As for the reasons why I don't know but engineers not knowing what they were doing seems highly unlikely to be the reason. Using a poor quality master tape could be one reason, not all CDs were made from the original master of course.

* unless we are talking classical music where my experience is zero.

My colleague who worked at Abbey Road and a few other well known ones, said record companies often only put time and money into the bigger artists CDs to ensure a good results that they new would sell in volumes. The rest were done on a budget so it was a bit of a lottery and down to the competence/experience of the engineer and his/her dedication to getting a good result, same as in most things in life I’m afraid. I would agree that most are good but I would say in my experience around 5% are questionable. But maybe be I’m picky, and I’ve mainly always used a Mid-high CD player.

[struth]

Lots of crappy CDs around and always was. As you say it just depended on who did it and often the budget.
Same can be said for vinyl of course

[Macca]

My colleague who worked at Abbey Road and a few other well known ones, said record companies often only put time and money into the bigger artists CDs to ensure a good results that they new would sell in volumes.

All my CDs are by mainstream artists so maybe that is why then. I've got very little obscure stuff on CD.

[goraman]

IT IS MEANT TO SOUND LIKE THAT !
i KNOW THAT SYMBOL! IT IS A LATE 60'S SIZZLER ! IT WAS LODED WITH LOOSE RIVETS, THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE 21 INCH RIDE BY SIZZLER, DRUMMERS HANG A SMALL CHAIN DOWN THE SIDE ,FROM THE WING NUT TO TRY TO DUPLICATE THAT SOUND.
i HAD THAT SYMBOL AND THAT IS IT'S SOUND!

[AJSki2fly]

All my CDs are by mainstream artists so maybe that is why then. I've got very little obscure stuff on CD.

Sadly I have some mainstream stuff that not great, I started buying cd’s when they first came out, around 85. Some of the led Zeps were a dissapointment, later releases were an improvement, the latest releases have good ambience. Some deep purples were lacking IMO. By the way I do turn the volume up and early on I had a Luxman 506 CD player followed by a Meridian 508 24 bit when they were £1800. By the end of the 80’s all I had was Cd but became disheartened with it by the 00’s. having mg said that I gave nearly 700 cds. Gradually I have replace those I was not happy with, so have become happier aurally, some have been replaced with hi res FLAC. Also I have gone back to vinyl, and for some reason this always seems to hit the spot, I cannot explain why but I rarely prefer a cd to a lp, even though there can be little to choose between them sometimes.

It doesn’t matter really as long as you enjoy it when listening


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Listening to some Al Green lps now on vinyl, the return of warmth is most welcome! I must admit my cd set up does have a slight glare to it, could be how my cdp interacts with my amp, not sure, could just be how cds sound. Quite a few of those 80s cd, say 'compact price' are they best steered clear of?

[Macca]

Should be no 'glare' with cd, it's not inherent to them despite what people think. Probably your amp.

[Mikeandvan]

Should be no 'glare' with cd, it's not inherent to them despite what people think. Probably your amp.

Do you not rate Naim amps then? Or just the Nait 5? I bought it as I'd sold my old upgraded Naim 72/140 - as I was sick of having no remote. The Nait 5 is supposed to be a sweet spot in the black Naim range, apparently being sweeter sounding than typical Naim, I must admit I cannot remember what my old 72/140 sounded in comparison, I would have to have it with me now to check that. Its serviced and I added a flatcap, this all cost less than £500. Currently listening to the Kinks Arthur on vinyl, and it sounds better than it did now I have the Nag mp200, but there is still a slight harshness to the sound that I wish would go away. Not sure if cart is a bit out in one or another, or something else needs to be changed in my system.

[Macca]

Do you not rate Naim amps then? .


I don't know about the latest ones but their older stuff has an edginess that I don't personally like (although some people call it 'exciting' and love it).

[Mikeandvan]

I don't know about the latest ones but their older stuff has an edginess that I don't personally like (although some people call it 'exciting' and love it).

I think the sales pitch was 'knee tapping', but that's been discussed many times before...……….

[Mikeandvan]

Just done an in depth comparison of Scott Walker Scott 4 LP, the cd version smashes it, by a long long way. I have the original vinyl and the cd is just wow, so much more presence. This has a bit to do with gain of course, but apart from that it really is amazing, I don't know what this says about my TT set up as the Nag MP200 is the best cart I've ever heard, or may'be this is a really superior cd version, it does say on the inlay that it was mastered from original tapes. When I play cd the edges of voices seem to be to the fore, like a kind of whisper, if you know what I mean?

[Sloop John B]

For what it’s worth I’ve found in an optimised system the format is irrelevant, it’s the mastering/pressing that gives the biggest difference.
A brickwalled CD will sound much worse than any non-brickwalled vinyl. A 58 minute LP won’t sound as good as a well mastered CD.
A new 24/96 recording will sound better digitally (in an optimised system).
YMMV.

.sjb

[montesquieu]

Just done an in depth comparison of Scott Walker Scott 4 LP, the cd version smashes it, by a long long way. I have the original vinyl and the cd is just wow, so much more presence. This has a bit to do with gain of course, but apart from that it really is amazing, I don't know what this says about my TT set up as the Nag MP200 is the best cart I've ever heard, or may'be this is a really superior cd version, it does say on the inlay that it was mastered from original tapes. When I play cd the edges of voices seem to be to the fore, like a kind of whisper, if you know what I mean?

I'd be inclined to try phono stage with tubes in it. Overall dissatisfaction in my view is likely down to the phono stage, though the worst of what you describe may well being down to crap pressings or even damaged vinyl.

I have a Schumann recording I really love Sarah Walker singing, Roger Vignoles on piano, but had what I thought was mistracking in a couple of places, which I thought must have been damage. Over time I bought three copies of it - all the same. Then I bought the CD - the same. Some lazy arse engineer in the studio hadn't bothered to set the levels correctly to fix an overloading microphone and it went all the way through to release.

Anyway I've always found that Naim stuff has a very solid state feel and into it both the Nakamichi and the Slee would have too - while I know the Slee and generally rate it I most certainly wouldn't feed it into Naim gear. The result to my mind would be edgy, glary all the stuff you are complaining about. See if you can borrow some alternative phono stages.

[Mikeandvan]

I'd be inclined to try phono stage with tubes in it. Overall dissatisfaction in my view is likely down to the phono stage, though the worst of what you describe may well being down to crap pressings or even damaged vinyl.

I have a Schumann recording I really love Sarah Walker singing, Roger Vignoles on piano, but had what I thought was mistracking in a couple of places, which I thought must have been damage. Over time I bought three copies of it - all the same. Then I bought the CD - the same. Some lazy arse engineer in the studio hadn't bothered to set the levels correctly to fix an overloading microphone and it went all the way through to release.

Anyway I've always found that Naim stuff has a very solid state feel and into it both the Nakamichi and the Slee would have too - while I know the Slee and generally rate it I most certainly wouldn't feed it into Naim gear. The result to my mind would be edgy, glary all the stuff you are complaining about. See if you can borrow some alternative phono stages.

The Scott 4 LP compared to the CD wasn't glared or edgy, it was underwhelming, a bit thin, the cd has a much bigger sound, really excellent. I do like the quieter vinyl sound with some LPs, but on this one it loses badly. I never thought about the combination of Naim and slee/nak, so thanks, but I might change my main amp now anyway that I'm gonna get into cd a lot more, its just the difference in price over vinyl is huge, and much less hassle tracking down decent copies. I've been buying Ron McMaster digitally transferred Blue Note cds recently, as recommended by the good folks over on PFM, and I am loving them.