View Full Version : Subjective tests that proves audiophiles can hear differences?
Please believe me, i am NOT trying to start a war of words here. I belong to a couple of audio Facebook pages and the threads below keep coming up.
1. No one can hear a difference between cables, those that claim they can are idiots.o
2. Anyone that thinks higher bitrate lossy and lossless sound different is an idiot.
I'm firmly in the camp that you can, often subtle, but nevertheless easily enough discernable. Of the blind studies that have been done though it's actually really difficult to find evidence that backs this up. Sure, many studies have been online and questionable, which only makes it harder to prove that audiophiles can hear the subtle differences we claim to.
I'm just asking, are there legitimate studies that pretty much prove, one way or another, this issue?
I'll just say again, I'm not wanting to start a boots and all war over this, I just want to know if there is empiracle evidence one way or the other.
personally i dont give a damn :eyebrows: if folk think they do then fine. billions believe in God, but there is no proof of that either
nonuffin
08-11-2018, 08:28
personally i dont give a damn :eyebrows: if folk think they do then fine. billions believe in God, but there is no proof of that either
Post of the century Grant :)
Firebottle
08-11-2018, 08:31
The only evidence you need is your ears.
The scale of any observable differences will be dependent on the supporting kit, but I for one have heard a big improvement with a better I/C.
Pepperamip
08-11-2018, 08:40
I don't think you need to be an audiophile to place a piece of bell wire between your amp and speakers and come to the conclusion that it's had a detrimental impact on the sound your system subsequently produces.
Surely anything that carries a signal bwtween two components must effect the sound in some way or another as to how much I think you should leave to your own ears and preferences.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Every human being, consciously or subconsciously, is controlled, to some degree, by their (deep-rooted) prejudices, which skew their views and opinions on all manner of subjects, including those on audio, meaning that the conclusions they've reached on any given subject may not necessarily be accurate - and that FACT applies equally to those who 'worship at the altar' of measurements, or ears!;)
That's why both subjectivists and objectivists possess the propensity to be fooled, and discussions such as this will go nowhere other than circular.
Marco.
Sherwood
08-11-2018, 09:01
Disbelief in the higher SQ of HD audio is not the same as disbelief in a God. There is no scientific method for proving the existence or otherwise of a God, though many on both sides of the argument take (often violent exception) to the other party's position on the matter.
In contrast, there are very simple and robust scientific methods for determining whether individuals can detect "differences" in different bit rate recordings and for ranking their preferences regarding these files.
The issue is not whether the HD files are "better" but whether the "differences" can be consistently identified and whether the subjective ratings by the subject are consistent. It does not matter at all whether there is any way of objectively measuring these differences or of rating recording SQ objectively. The only important thing is that the listener can demonstrate consistency in controlled trials.
My view that higher bit rate and broader frequency spectrum recordings can offer a more natural representation of audio reality is of course purely subjective. However, it is not for others to argue that my perception is wrong. Equally, if others cannot hear any differences between HD and Red Book format CDs then I have to accept their subjective assessments**.
Of course, not all HD files are great recordings or genuinely HD for that matter and the debate has undoubtedly been confused by cynical marketing and commercial pressures.
Geoff
** and resist the temptation to tell them to get their ears syringed!!!! :doh:
Light Dependant Resistor
08-11-2018, 10:02
If you escape the boundaries set by Nyquist /Shannon sampling theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem
that determines we cannot perceive anything above 20khz , then Yes audiophiles or anyone interested in music with normal hearing,
should be able to perceive differences. A view of this video by David Blackmer asks and queries perceptual perfection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j71NrNMx2rU
Also this article http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0114/the_world_beyond_20khz.htm
Now the reality is few pieces of equipment are capable of bandwidth beyond 20khz. Marco just a few days ago
reminding us of the Pioneer Legato Link system that not only improved vibration from CD;'s but also enabled circuitry
seemingly escaping the aforementioned sampling theorem.
A good moving coil cartridge has frequency to 30khz , Harmon Kardon had amplifiers in the 1970's capable to
about 70khz, https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/harman-kardon/citation-12.shtml
The other requirement is time and how it is modulated away from ideal. A classic example is a amplifier circuit
having a long series arrangement of transistors, where what arrives reasonably pristine at the input is no longer represented
by the same timing when it gets to the output. Both AC and DC circuitry has to be considered with regard to time... but who
does it ? very few manufacturers are even thinking about this ( I am )
So escape the boundaries set by some manufacturers of equipment qualifying we can only perceive to 20khz and look at schematics
of equipment to see if any effort is being made to improve time, and the differences we hear as audiophiles will become far more apparent.
personally i dont give a damn :eyebrows: if folk think they do then fine. billions believe in God, but there is no proof of that either
Yep [emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Please believe me, i am NOT trying to start a war of words here. I belong to a couple of audio Facebook pages and the threads below keep coming up.
1. No one can hear a difference between cables, those that claim they can are idiots.o
2. Anyone that thinks higher bitrate lossy and lossless sound different is an idiot.
I'm firmly in the camp that you can, often subtle, but nevertheless easily enough discernable. Of the blind studies that have been done though it's actually really difficult to find evidence that backs this up. Sure, many studies have been online and questionable, which only makes it harder to prove that audiophiles can hear the subtle differences we claim to.
I'm just asking, are there legitimate studies that pretty much prove, one way or another, this issue?
I'll just say again, I'm not wanting to start a boots and all war over this, I just want to know if there is empiracle evidence one way or the other.
Speaker cable and interconnects - yes. If there is a difference (and a lot of the time there isn't) some people can discern it in controlled tests. For example James Randi withdrew his million pound prize when he was told that some interconnects and speaker cables do affect the sound enough that experienced listeners would be able to consistently pick out the differences and win the challenge.
However you may think the differences are huge and unsubtle between two sets of cables or interconnects when you know which is in use. Try it when you don't know which cable is in use (blind listening) and the differences become far more subtle and harder to spot. Psychology is a funny thing.
Lossy vs lossless - again some people can depending on the programme used. Easier with simpler recordings
Lossless vs hi rez - no-one can distinguish in controlled tests using music. However if using sounds (not music) with very high frequencies at high levels present they can. With a recording of keys jangling for e.g some can but only because they have trained themselves to pick out artefacts in the high rez version by listening to it many times. Note they using artefacts to pick out the hi-rez version, not the sound itself.
People do claim that there are quite obvious differences between lossless and hi-resolution when listening causally (i.e not in a controlled situation). This is because the Hi-rez file they are using is a different mastering and so does sound different regardless. If you down sample the hi-rez file to 16/44.1 (so the mastering is the same and all that has changed is the sampling frequency and the bit rate) then no-one is able to distinguish a difference.
AFAIAA that is the current state of play as far as the research goes.
Audio Al
08-11-2018, 11:06
:sofa: can I come out yet please :)
"and resist the temptation to tell them to get their ears syringed!!!!"
Sorry, too late! Well I told them they were deaf which is close enough to the same thing.
From Martin;
"If you down sample the hi-rez file to 16/44.1 (so the mastering is the same and all that has changed is the sampling frequency and the bit rate) then no-one is able to distinguish a difference. "
How does down sampling make a differing master the same as the other one, surely a different mastering has possibly many altered levels, left right balance/shifts, top boosts/cuts and other things?
bbbiker800
08-11-2018, 12:38
Slightly different angle: HiFi Magazines and cables ....
I very rarely buy these since they mostly cover exotica. But, reading the posts above, it just occurred to me that I can't ever recall seeing any group/panel/blind test(s) of cables ie speaker, interconnects etc., but I can recall seeing reviews of single cables by a single reviewer. Is that right ?
It seems to me that such group reviews are doomed to failure and indecision - for all the reasons in the posts above.
And, BTW What Hifi doesn't count IMHO .....
Beobloke
08-11-2018, 13:07
Slightly different angle: HiFi Magazines and cables ....
I very rarely buy these since they mostly cover exotica. But, reading the posts above, it just occurred to me that I can't ever recall seeing any group/panel/blind test(s) of cables ie speaker, interconnects etc., but I can recall seeing reviews of single cables by a single reviewer. Is that right ?
It seems to me that such group reviews are doomed to failure and indecision - for all the reasons in the posts above.
And, BTW What Hifi doesn't count IMHO .....
I did a group test of six interconnects and five loudspeaker cables for Hi-Fi World around ten years ago. It was the single most depressing experience of my reviewing career and I have refused to review any cables ever since!
However, interestingly, five of the the interconnects were pretty similar, with the sixth absolutely head and shoulders better than them. On the other hand, four of the loudspeaker cables were again similar and the fifth was truly appalling, wiping out a good portion of the treble!
And, no, I will not be mentioning any names, so don’t ask!
freefallrob
08-11-2018, 13:20
I did a group test of six interconnects and five loudspeaker cables for Hi-Fi World around ten years ago. It was the single most depressing experience of my reviewing career and I have refused to review any cables ever since!
However, interestingly, five of the the interconnects were pretty similar, with the sixth absolutely head and shoulders better than them. On the other hand, four of the loudspeaker cables were again similar and the fifth was truly appalling, wiping out a good portion of the treble!
And, no, I will not be mentioning any names, so don’t ask!
Excellent post :-)
Yes, good post. How did Supra go if it was one of the contenders.
(Says he completely disregarding the bit about no names)
Just found this test from the Audio Society of Minnesota. Good read, well conducted test
https://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0
From Martin;
"If you down sample the hi-rez file to 16/44.1 (so the mastering is the same and all that has changed is the sampling frequency and the bit rate) then no-one is able to distinguish a difference. "
How does down sampling make a differing master the same as the other one, surely a different mastering has possibly many altered levels, left right balance/shifts, top boosts/cuts and other things?
You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm meant use the same mastering and listen in 24/96 then downsample it to 16/44.1 and there's no difference. This is the only way to do an accurate comparison with no other variables. Obviously you have to get your downsampling right.
Stratmangler
08-11-2018, 16:52
You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm meant use the same mastering and listen in 24/96 then downsample it to 16/44.1 and there's no difference. This is the only way to do an accurate comparison with no other variables. Obviously you have to get your downsampling right.
You don't downsample from 24/96 to 16/44.1 !
You resample.
You don't downsample from24/96 to 16/44.1 !
You resample.
LOL fair point.
bbbiker800
08-11-2018, 17:00
I did a group test of six interconnects and five loudspeaker cables for Hi-Fi World around ten years ago. It was the single most depressing experience of my reviewing career and I have refused to review any cables ever since!
However, interestingly, five of the the interconnects were pretty similar, with the sixth absolutely head and shoulders better than them. On the other hand, four of the loudspeaker cables were again similar and the fifth was truly appalling, wiping out a good portion of the treble!
And, no, I will not be mentioning any names, so don’t ask!
Beobloke - Yes i imagine that test was mega boring but interesting that some cables stood out. Probably the Audioquest cable ?!?!?
Anyway as you're a reviewer was my guess correct ? (please don't say buy some mags to find out :) )
Here is my overall opinion
If you cant hear a difference between different mains cables, interconnects or speaker cables then:-
1. You are comparing products that do sound similar.
2. Your system is not resolving (good) enough and you need to spend your money improving that before wasting it on cabling.
Here is my overall opinion
If you cant hear a difference between different mains cables, interconnects or speaker cables then:-
1. You are comparing products that do sound similar.
2. Your system is not resolving (good) enough and you need to spend your money improving that before wasting it on cabling.
As far as mains cables go I reckon it's 1) every time.
My simple rules for sighted assessment:
1) If you think there'e been a subtle improvement after a change of kit or a tweak, nothing has actually changed.
2) If you think you hear a blindingly obvious difference then there has actually been a very subtle improvement.
That's assuming the system wasn't utterly crocked to begin with of course in which case sorting that will be a big improvement.
I'll need to hear a mains cable make a blindingly obvious difference (sighted) before I'll go down that rabbit hole.
Beobloke
08-11-2018, 17:42
Beobloke - Yes i imagine that test was mega boring but interesting that some cables stood out. Probably the Audioquest cable ?!?!?
Anyway as you're a reviewer was my guess correct ? (please don't say buy some mags to find out :) )
The good interconnects were Siltech Classic Anniversary 550i. Looked like jewellery, sounded fabulous and smelled amazing!
Primalsea
08-11-2018, 21:36
For me I tend to just leave something new in for a while and grow accustomed to it and then maybe switch back to what was in before and leave that in for a while and then repeat. Over time I tend to have an overall preference that has built up over a few months or so. This is the only reliable way that I can tell if a difference exists or not.
With cables I must admit I tend to fit and forget and not worry about them unless there is an obvious issue such as a dodgy connection or hum caused by being to close to a valve phono stage then I’ll just change the plugs or sockets or re-route the cable.
I heard a difference in a friend's system after he changed his speaker cable even before I knew anything about hifi. He didn't tell me what he was doing or why, I couldn't have had a predudice either way. As it turns out the new speaker cable didn't sound as good as the old one :)
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
For me I tend to just leave something new in for a while and grow accustomed to it and then maybe switch back to what was in before and leave that in for a while and then repeat. Over time I tend to have an overall preference that has built up over a few months or so. This is the only reliable way that I can tell if a difference exists or not.
With cables I must admit I tend to fit and forget and not worry about them unless there is an obvious issue such as a dodgy connection or hum caused by being to close to a valve phono stage then I’ll just change the plugs or sockets or re-route the cable.
More or less my modus operandi, as most changes are subtle - different, if not necessarily an improvement.
More or less my modus operandi, as most changes are subtle - different, if not necessarily an improvement.
Subtle changes are fine if you are increasing the cost of the cables by a few tens of pounds. If you are increasing it by a few hundred or even thousands you are entitled to expect a big improvement.
Not really. With 'audiophile cables', arguably more than anything else in hi-fi, you're often paying through the nose for bullshit marketing, the use of unnecessary 'exotic' materials/fancy packaging and/or the 'desirable badge' of the manufacturer - almost most none of which will improve the sound of your system!;)
That's why I use good quality, but sanely priced cables, the likes of which are often seen in recording studios and other demanding professional environments, to produce the music we play back on our systems. Kinda makes sense:)
Marco.
Subtle changes are fine if you are increasing the cost of the cables by a few tens of pounds. If you are increasing it by a few hundred or even thousands you are entitled to expect a big improvement.
You are entitled to expect it; whether you get it or not is far from guaranteed.
Actually I wasn't specifically talking about cables. I make up all my own cables, and I have yet to hear an expensive cable that significantly betters my own.
You are entitled to expect it; whether you get it or not is far from guaranteed.
Actually I wasn't specifically talking about cables. I make up all my own cables, and I have yet to hear an expensive cable that significantly betters my own.
Its all very simple - if the new replacement doesn't offer value for money then don't buy it
Its all very simple - if the new replacement doesn't offer value for money then don't buy it
I don't think anybody would sensibly buy something that didn't offer value for money.
Its all very simple - if the new replacement doesn't offer value for money then don't buy it
You need to remove the notion, as intimated in one of your earlier posts, that paying more for *anything* guarantees superior performance, as it's not only naïve, but a total fallacy.
Marco.
This bloke was concerned to find that he was unable to reliably distinguish his mega expensive Opus speaker cables from some much cheaper Monster efforts despite going into the blind test full of confidence
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/941184-observations-controlled-cable-test-2.html#post12255000
Beobloke
09-11-2018, 07:46
You need to remove the notion, as intimated in one of your earlier posts, that paying more for *anything* guarantees superior performance, as it's not only naïve, but a total fallacy.
Marco.
What about the times when it does?!
Pigmy Pony
09-11-2018, 07:57
This bloke was concerned to find that he was unable to reliably distinguish his mega expensive Opus speaker cables from some much cheaper Monster efforts despite going into the blind test full of confidence
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/941184-observations-controlled-cable-test-2.html#post12255000
The bloke was probably happier with his Opus cables when he just assumed they would be better. After all this testing he now KNOWS...that they may or may not be better.
Perhaps he should have left well alone, it's like the old bodger's adage "Don't turn the light on and ruin a good job".
paulf-2007
09-11-2018, 07:59
personally i dont give a damn :eyebrows: if folk think they do then fine. billions believe in God, but there is no proof of that either
+1 and that's me outta here
For me the main issue is influencing others with opinions, whether this be reviews in the media or posts on a forum.
Ultimately it's up to the individual what they spend their money on and equally it's the manufacturers and retailers jobs to sell things, however when supposedly independent reviewers and self appointed experts wax lyrical about THEIR interpretation of how a piece of kit sounds it will, maybe on a subconscious level, influence others. It gets even worse when a non believer suggests that they have not heard this magical difference, standard responses are "your equipment isn't good enough to exploit it" "there's something wrong with your hearing/you don't understand what you're listening for" or "the test was flawed because......."
It's classic emporer's new clothes syndrome
Pepperamip
09-11-2018, 08:28
Some people will pay good money for old rope.. A hifi company spends a lot of money on designing and manufacturing a product. To make that product sell as well as they want it to they tell lies and because of those lies we don't believe them and we shouldn't believe them, after all they want their product to fly off the shelves.
What I hate is when they know the true value of their product yet they inflate their prices in the hope that the very customers they are hoping to attract will fall for the bull. This is what makes us lot so sceptical....dishonest claims and over valuation.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Light Dependant Resistor
09-11-2018, 08:39
For me the main issue is influencing others with opinions, whether this be reviews in the media or posts on a forum.
Ultimately it's up to the individual what they spend their money on and equally it's the manufacturers and retailers jobs to sell things, however when supposedly independent reviewers and self appointed experts wax lyrical about THEIR interpretation of how a piece of kit sounds it will, maybe on a subconscious level, influence others. It gets even worse when a non believer suggests that they have not heard this magical difference, standard responses are "your equipment isn't good enough to exploit it" "there's something wrong with your hearing/you don't understand what you're listening for" or "the test was flawed because......."
It's classic emporer's new clothes syndrome
Hi Gary
This is where the buyers of equipment must look beyond the emporers clothes to what is underneath, so to speak.
A great example of a manufacturer setting new ideas was the the current dumping principle Quad have continued to use from 1975
The mathematics of that idea was sound, and the circuit was continually improved. So with any new purchase find out what the
design has set out to do, rather than just buying a brand name. This better approach requires a basic understanding of electronics and choices
that manufacturers are making on your behalf as a potential purchaser, to see what is under the hood.
As example In my own field of endeavor, the NSL32SR3 LDR happens to be the lowest distortion LDR available and has the best characteristics as a
audio attenuator- having low resistance ON, and very high resistance OFF If a purchaser was looking at a LDR attenuator they
would be best buying one with the NSL32SR3 rather than the NSL32SR2 or NSL32SR2S. Instantly the purchaser is then more aware of
what they are buying. The data sheets for devices are all available online - as are schematics and user manuals at HiFi engine, and
prospective buyers can refer to forums and ask manufacturers questions. With those sorts of resources it becomes much easier to
make informed choices, rather than going in without knowledge, to possibly face later consequences.
What about the times when it does?!
The key is in the word "guarantee", which you simply can't. Throwing money at something guarantees nothing but an emptier wallet (and perhaps also the smug satisfaction of knowing that you own something 'reassuringly expensive').
Marco [fundamentally not wired that way].
Wasn't there a supposedly high end CDP a few years ago that got rave reviews from owners but turned out to have cheap DVD player internals inside a fancy box?
What I hate is when they know the true value of their product yet they inflate their prices in the hope that the very customers they are hoping to attract will fall for the bull. This is what makes us lot so sceptical....dishonest claims and over valuation.
Spot on. That is the reality, simply because manufacturers (especially those who make 'high-end' cables) know that a 'sexy story' sells!
Plus, if the price is too cheap, 'audiophiles' with more money than sense, simply won't buy them, because they won't rate them. Therefore, high-end cables and equipment is often priced in such a way as to appeal to the well-heeled (often, but not always, snobs/showoffs) and those who are influenced by the things I mentioned earlier.
That's the sad truth, but it doesn't just apply in the world of hi-fi; it applies to all luxury goods sold today!
Marco.
Light Dependant Resistor
09-11-2018, 09:23
Wasn't there a supposedly high end CDP a few years ago that got rave reviews from owners but turned out to have cheap DVD player internals inside a fancy box?
You might be referring to the Sony Playstation 1 ? It has its own thread at DIY audio https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/31123-playstation-cd-player.html
You might be referring to the Sony Playstation 1 ? It has its own thread at DIY audio https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/31123-playstation-cd-player.html
No, it was American IIRC and was in a fancy brushed aluminium case, cost thousands but when somebody opened it up it contained a badly wired and soldered JVC (I think) DVD player internals
I can't remember where I read about it but the article included some hilarious reviews about the clarity, detail etc.
No, it was American IIRC and was in a fancy brushed aluminium case, cost thousands but when somebody opened it up it contained a badly wired and soldered JVC (I think) DVD player internals
I can't remember where I read about it but the article included some hilarious reviews about the clarity, detail etc.
Goldmund.
6K and it was a repackaged 200 bucks Pioneer DVD player inside.
Remember it as I had the Pioneer at the time.
You might be referring to the Sony Playstation 1 ? It has its own thread at DIY audio https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/31123-playstation-cd-player.html
The Sony PS1 is pretty much the opposite case to the one in point - a relatively cheap gaming device which many have found to be a very good CD player (with some minor internal modifications) even though it was never touted as such by the manufacturer.
Goldmund.
6K and it was a repackaged 200 bucks Pioneer DVD player inside.
Remember it as I had the Pioneer at the time.
That was it, thank you
An absolute case in point of people hearing what they wanted/expected to hear because it was marketed, and priced, as a high end player
Good example, yeah.
A blind test between the two would have been interesting...
StanleyB
09-11-2018, 10:16
A great example of a manufacturer setting new ideas was the the current dumping principle Quad have continued to use from 1975
The mathematics of that idea was sound, and the circuit was continually improved. So with any new purchase find out what the
design has set out to do, rather than just buying a brand name. This better approach requires a basic understanding of electronics and choices
that manufacturers are making on your behalf as a potential purchaser, to see what is under the hood.
As example In my own field of endeavor, the NSL32SR3 LDR happens to be the lowest distortion LDR available and has the best characteristics as a
audio attenuator- having low resistance ON, and very high resistance OFF
The current dumping principle is heavily flawed. The maths ignores the distortion introduced by the difference in the power supply line that drives the output stage, and the power supply line that drives the correction stage. For calculation purposes everything is supposed to be perfect.
As for the LDR principle of attenuation: it has its faults. I have had a look at it in the past as a method of adjusting the volume on some products. But I'll keep what I discovered to myself just in case I find a solution to them one day.
bbbiker800
09-11-2018, 11:45
You are entitled to expect it; whether you get it or not is far from guaranteed.
Actually I wasn't specifically talking about cables. I make up all my own cables, and I have yet to hear an expensive cable that significantly betters my own.
Thats very interesting Barry - very much the sort of thing I'd like to see in a forum ie how to save money, learn something useful and build your own cables !
Thats very interesting Barry - very much the sort of thing I'd like to see in a forum ie how to save money, learn something useful and build your own cables !
It's fundamentally what AoS is about, Richard: maximising SPPV, and showing folks how best to achieve that, not simply plugging the latest (expensive) 'new toy'. We're first and foremost a forum for genuine enthusiasts, looking to get the biggest bang for their buck, not appeasing the sensibilities of 'badge-fi' snobs;)
Marco.
bbbiker800
09-11-2018, 12:37
It's fundamentally what AoS is about, Richard: maximising SPPV, and showing folks how best to achieve that, not simply plugging the latest (expensive) 'new toy'. We're first and foremost a forum for genuine enthusiasts, looking to get the biggest bang for their buck, not appeasing the sensibilities of 'badge-fi' snobs;)
Marco.
Sounds good to me Marco (pun intended) though don't worry I won't ask you to share your cable recipes :)
For me, I try to reuse what I have and have done for many years. But there have been a few exceptions.... swapped a Van den Hul 102 Mk3 (please don't tell me off) for a Mark Grant HDX thing following a change of phono stage (designer suggested; had the effect I wanted) and new speaker cables. That was after the dog chomped thru the last set ! The new cable trunking is doing its job..... Re Mains then I just use what the boxes came with. I did experiment and 'build' a mains cable for a Cyrus X-Power; cost about £45 (I dread to think what the retail price would have been for it) and guess what ? it made no difference whatsoever :).
I did conclude a while back that for my level there seems little point in upgrading mains and i'll most likely never bother and, for other cables then I'll keep what I have. i think they are perfectly functional and perform fine for me - I just can't see the point of chasing a minor change (even though you are luring me into building my own !! )
swapped a Van den Hul 102 Mk3 (please don't tell me off) for a Mark Grant HDX thing following a change of phono stage (designer suggested; had the effect I wanted) and new speaker cables. That was after the dog chomped thru the last set ! )
Was there an improvement in the quality of his barking?
Light Dependant Resistor
09-11-2018, 14:33
The current dumping principle is heavily flawed. The maths ignores the distortion introduced by the difference in the power supply line that drives the output stage, and the power supply line that drives the correction stage. For calculation purposes everything is supposed to be perfect.
As for the LDR principle of attenuation: it has its faults. I have had a look at it in the past as a method of adjusting the volume on some products. But I'll keep what I discovered to myself just in case I find a solution to them one day.
The work done by Vanderkooy and Liptschz http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1978/Current%20dumping%20-%20does%20it%20really%20work%20DCD.pdf
finds endorsement of current dumping, so "heavily flawed" might need some correction excuse the pun.
There is general agreement in amplifier discussions unregulated supplies suits power amp demands, however I agree with you that a good regulated supply is the best form.
I would add not as a current source -although that helps too , but mainly as a current sink, with sensing of load.
As for LDR's they can be made to be exceptional see image, which as you can see goes well beyond the 7805 derived circuits that most people use.
bbbiker800
09-11-2018, 15:00
Was there an improvement in the quality of his barking?
Funny you should mention that.... I used custom made suspenders to hang the trunking off the skirting board. Thats when I noticed a stridency in the upper registers of his bark; a definite degradation which turned out to be very tiring (I suspect it was frustration making itself known). I may experiment by placing the trunking on the carpet to add some warmth :) ...
(thats friday afternoon boredom at work for you !)
feed him some Black Ravioli see if that dampens him down a bit?
Funny you should mention that.... I used custom made suspenders to hang the trunking off the skirting board.!)
Um, I think there are other more specialised forums for that kind of thing:eek:
There is IMO one function which counters detecting an improvement.
We get to a point quite often at which we think what we have is damn good, and then stay with it - until after a while we wonder "What if . . . . . , would that improve it?"
We try something new, and can then dismiss it, even when it may be an improvement, because we have become so habituated to the original sound that the new sound seems wrong.
This also applies to food when we decide to use much less sugar or salt, but after a while that becomes the new norm, or, as was the case in the 80s, my girlfriend and I always bought our chickens from M&S, it tasting 'wrong' from other sources.
We tend to adopt a familiarity with what we have, and against which others are wrong, and this may obscure the fact that a new sound is more accurate.
bbbiker800
09-11-2018, 16:17
..... yes....no more from me on this thread !!
This also applies to food when we decide to use much less sugar or salt, but after a while that becomes the new norm, or, as was the case in the 80s, my girlfriend and I always bought our chickens from M&S, it tasting 'wrong' from other sources.
We tend to adopt a familiarity with what we have, and against which others are wrong, and this may obscure the fact that a new sound is more accurate.
You make a good point, Dennis, but in terms of the chickens in question, are you sure you were comparing like with like? All chickens aren't equal;)
For example, if the M&S ones you had were free-range, as opposed to the more common battery-farmed variety, then there will unquestionably be a difference in flavour, as indeed (even aside from that) there would be if the chickens concerned came from sources where they had been fed on different foods. In that respect, corn-fed chickens always taste (and indeed look) different.
Comparing like with like (in an appropriate context) is also one of the challenges in audio, when assessing accurately for differences.
Marco.
I have a story about chicken from a colleague who used to work in poultry processing factory in the 90s.
They had one production line that split into lots of packaging lines with, for example, M&S at one end and Asda Value at the other. They were supposed to "grade" the chicken and package it accordingly, guess what? They didn't bother, the same damned chicken went into any packaging line.
Until they were caught and sued anyway lol
Michael loves music
09-11-2018, 18:39
Um, I think there are other more specialised forums for that kind of thing:eek:
I would love to see Louise minchin in suspenders at the nearest travelodge as soon as possible
Pigmy Pony
09-11-2018, 19:36
I would love to see Louise minchin in suspenders at the nearest travelodge as soon as possible
She's not mingin', that Minchin...
But I couldn't meet her at my local Travelodge, me and Lucy Verasamy are known to all the staff there. :)
I would love to see Louise minchin in suspenders at the nearest travelodge as soon as possible
That's not an unpleasant thought.
Mike Reed
09-11-2018, 20:13
They didn't bother, the same damned chicken went into any packaging line.
Until they were caught and sued anyway lol
Obviously someone suspected fowl play. Makes you wonder what cured meats were suffering from before their recovery.
Pigmy Pony
10-11-2018, 14:58
Obviously someone suspected fowl play. Makes you wonder what cured meats were suffering from before their recovery.
:lol: Oh dear Mike, I see they haven't cured your dad-jokes problem yet!
:lol: Oh dear Mike, I see they haven't cured your dad-jokes problem yet!
If anything its got worse.
Mike Reed
10-11-2018, 16:06
:lol: Oh dear Mike, I see they haven't cured your dad-jokes problem yet!
Apun my soul but that's unlikely. One-liners are good for those with poor memories like me.:)
Actually Marco the chickens were of a similar category, all non free range and non corn fed, and of comparable marketing position. Of course keeping only one variable must be done to maximise a difference 'proof'.
It has taken me a year to habituate to my Betas, and I have spent much of that time thinking I had made a mistake, and because I had habituated to my own (relatively) flawed design, for several years.
But last evening, and believe it or not, on a two hour FM programme I realised just what they can, and do do; it is the best sound I have ever had by far, and it this because of what they don't do.
The only evidence you need is your ears.
The scale of any observable differences will be dependent on the supporting kit, but I for one have heard a big improvement with a better I/C.
I agree, which is precisely why you need to get your eyes and awareness of what variable is being changed out of the way.
Each time I make a little change, it is almost like my brain is trying to listen out for it. It’s easy to mistake this for a difference.
ABX testing works well if you are very aware of the system i.e. it’s your own, but falls flat on its arse IMO with unfamiliar gear, too many new variables. Perhaps this is why it gets a bad rap.
I agree, which is precisely why you need to get your eyes and awareness of what variable is being changed out of the way.
Each time I make a little change, it is almost like my brain is trying to listen out for it. It’s easy to mistake this for a difference.
ABX testing works well if you are very aware of the system i.e. it’s your own, but falls flat on its arse IMO with unfamiliar gear, too many new variables. Perhaps this is why it gets a bad rap.
When you demo new equipment you're doing exactly the same thing though, listening to unfamiliar gear.
ABX testing is infallible right up to the point when somebody disagrees with results lol
Well, I have a set of interconnects that sound like shite compared to the Fisual Rio interconnects that I replaced them with and this result is consistently repeatable by simple comparison with any good music. So there!
The problem is people have no idea how cognition works; fact is we 'hear' with our brains and the brain adds all sorts to the mix from all the information it has available, not just what it receives via the ears. So we are all subject to hearing effects and changes that simply don't exist. This is a classic bake-off tale, nicked from another forum:
The cables were very expensive JPS. They came in a very nice Aluminium box. There were speaker cables and mains cables. The owner was very enthusiastic about the performance gains. Due to Geoff (Oldius) have two big rooms for the bake off, it was a ideal stiuation to try some cable swapping.
To make it straight forward, we decided to try just a mains lead on the amplifier. The amp was a very fine sounding Lentek amp. Two cables were used, a JPS mains cable and a normal "kettle lead" mains cable. We initially went from Kettle lead then JPS lead, then swopping back and forth. Both the leads were plugged into a mains block and each was swapped over when in use. The amp volume was kept the same.
The cables were swapped quite a few times. TBH, most of the people listening couldn't here a difference between the two. The owner of the cables seemed to be ecstatic when his JPS cables were in place. This did led to some people looking perplexed.
Each time I changed the cable, I had to go behind the equipment and out of sight. As I was going to change the cable to the JPS, I had the brainwave of not changing the "kettle lead". I popped my head up and said "ready".
So people thought the cable that they were listening to was the JPS. I did the "change" a few times, each time popping out of sight behind the equipment & not changing anything plus keeping the "kettle lead" in. Most didn't hear differences but the owner and maybe one or two others thought it was loads better when they thought the JPS was in.
After doing this a few times, I got a fellow bake off buff to observe what I was doing and to keep quiet.
I addressed the audience asking if they could hear big differences and asked what they heard in the last change. The owner did wax lyrically about the JPS. But then I dropped the bombshell of not changing the cables. The witness backed it up. Their were interesting looks on people's faces
Not that it stops me from doing sighted comparisons because it is fun and proper blind AB or ABX procedures are tedious in the extreme. But findings from sighted tests should always be taken with a dose of salt. Even mine!
sq225917
25-11-2018, 11:12
Goldmund.
6K and it was a repackaged 200 bucks Pioneer DVD player inside.
Remember it as I had the Pioneer at the time.
For the record that pioneer DVD player has one of the best spdif outputs ever. Its outputs an actual square wave with incredibly low timing error as it uses a memory buffer output. Way ahead of any other transport.
walpurgis
25-11-2018, 11:17
Yup. I just love listening to those square waves. :)
For the record that pioneer DVD player has one of the best spdif outputs ever. Its outputs an actual square wave with incredibly low timing error as it uses a memory buffer output. Way ahead of any other transport.
Accepted, but that doesn't justify charging £6k for it.
This thread is starting to provoke an 'itch' in me.
I have now what I consider a very good system in building block terms, but the whole issue of tweeks raises its head because I am wondering if I am sabotaging its performance with my, established with a previous set-up, view that cables, stands, spikes etc were inconsequential.
So guys, do I start again to re-evaluate my position? How certain is anybody that there is ground to be gained?
AJSki2fly
25-11-2018, 15:32
This thread is starting to provoke an 'itch' in me.
I have now what I consider a very good system in building block terms, but the whole issue of tweeks raises its head because I am wondering if I am sabotaging its performance with my, established with a previous set-up, view that cables, stands, spikes etc were inconsequential.
So guys, do I start again to re-evaluate my position? How certain is anybody that there is ground to be gained?
Absolutely! I spent £20 on some sorbothane feet recently to try and isolate my valve amps a bit more from vibrations, and the difference was immediate, much better definition and detail (I was sceptical before, because of see expensive isolation platforms) see https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/291033962969?chn=ps as an example, if you use these then you need to but the right size for the weight of the gear you are putting on them. Also I have over the years replaced interconnects and have generally done so with home trials first and got a friend to blind swap them for me, for me there always has been a difference not always for the better, but I have ended up with what I like for my budget. Speaker cable can make quite a bit of difference as well.
Have fun.
Haselsh1
25-11-2018, 15:48
personally i dont give a damn :eyebrows: if folk think they do then fine. billions believe in God, but there is no proof of that either
LOL, neither is there a shred of evidence
;)
This thread is starting to provoke an 'itch' in me.
I have now what I consider a very good system in building block terms, but the whole issue of tweeks raises its head because I am wondering if I am sabotaging its performance with my, established with a previous set-up, view that cables, stands, spikes etc were inconsequential.
So guys, do I start again to re-evaluate my position? How certain is anybody that there is ground to be gained?
Cable change effects are most often blown out of proportion, yet I still do use some expensive wires... would I be happy with pro audio cable everywhere? Probably.
Personally of what you have mentioned it is the spikes that could provide the biggest changes, by getting rid of them under speakers in particular, if you are on a suspended wooden floor. I do still use a Mana rack, because it’s heavy and looks cool, but each component is decoupled.
Decoupling, damping and isolation techniques in my system have blown away any cable change effects, specially when the volume starts to go up.
When you demo new equipment you're doing exactly the same thing though, listening to unfamiliar gear.
ABX testing is infallible right up to the point when somebody disagrees with results lol
Listening to a familiar system and making a minor change is much easier, as you have a solid and experienced point of reference.
For example, a test using FLAC and 320kbps files in an ABX test. You might be surprised how little difference there is... I had to use some STAX electrostatics to notice reliably.
My take is very similar to yours Neil, but I could not possibly consider spikes on 77kg floor standing speakers, but I wonder about speaker rocking on a carpet.
I have spikes under the legs of my home made rack, from four (large) broom handles with MDF shelves, no others.
My interconnects are all RS large 'low noise', except those between pre and speakers which is Klotz mic, cable.
I've just bought some 2mm PVC sheet with which to make a replacement platter mat for my Linn, I've never liked felt because of its potential to capture and enclose dust, and also the ease with which a careless catching of a stylus may result.
The mechanical impedance will be more similar to that of the record, and will IMO allow less bounce from transients, and with greater damping. Its density is also nearer to that of aluminium.
Any criticisms/suggestions are welcome.
Hi mate, you can still use Sorbothane despite your very heavy speakers.
I’d suggest that you cut out some thin MDF board to fit under your speaker base, then use the hemispheres inverted on that board i.e. spherical side up.
From my calculations you will need 8x 50M50D under each speaker:
https://www.qtasystems.co.uk/articles/how-to-use-sorbothane-hemispheres.htm
This’d be 4x hemispheres in each corner, then another 4x in the outer middles of each side, in between each side’s corner hemispheres.
Might be a bitch to fit though. ;)
dave2010
26-11-2018, 15:39
The only evidence you need is your ears.
The scale of any observable differences will be dependent on the supporting kit, but I for one have heard a big improvement with a better I/C.Seconded. I didn't expect to, and at first I didn't. I borrowed a set of CDs from the library - Mozart Cosi fan tutte - Colin David - I think - which was highly rated. I didn't like it as much as the critics did, and overall it sounded just a bit "ordinary".
I tried changing the interconnect cables, and just happened to put that on, and I wasn't really paying attention. I think there's a point in that at which a glass is dropped (sound effect) - that really brought me up with a start - and made me realise that the CD was indeed much better than I at first thought.
That was the most significant difference I noted though. Loudspeaker cables and other tweaks haven't had such big effects for me.
Comparing CDs with SACDs - I think SACDs ought to sound a bit better, but my impression is that they may be slightly smoother, but I couldn't swear to it. I'd probably fail on testing for that comparison.
- I think SACDs ought to sound a bit better, but my impression is that they may be slightly smoother, but I couldn't swear to it. I'd probably fail on testing for that comparison.
I think they do, or maybe it's the SACD players that do. I find red book CDs sound smoother played on SACD capable players too. Could be imagination of course, I'm not talking about a big difference.
For the record that pioneer DVD player has one of the best spdif outputs ever. Its outputs an actual square wave with incredibly low timing error as it uses a memory buffer output. Way ahead of any other transport.
As it turns out I have a close relative of that DVD player still in use in my system. I bought my 676A, second hand, after hearing some very favourable mutterings about it in the hifi press, especially that Townsend Audio were modifying them and selling them as giant killers. Townsend though were totally upfront that they were Pioneer players, there was certainly no attempt to hide that fact..
It is, in Hifi terms, now old as the hills but still works perfectly, even the remote doesn't have a single glitch. It feeds my two dacs, a xduoo xd_05 (optical) and Lite Dac60 ( coax) perfectly, and I've always been surprised how good it sounds just going straighten into my preamp itself. Damn fine player.
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