View Full Version : In defence of the CD player
Last week while considering a change in digital direction I asked about the relative merits of streaming/ripping CDs to FLAC on a dedicated server. Based on responses and some careful reflection thereafter I've decided to continue spinning the shiny doughnuts on a quality transport. Why? Some of my considerations are as follows:
Sound quality
Most of those with experience of true 'high-end' CDPs implied that the sound from streaming/ dedicated server/DAC etc was not quite up to the mark, regardless of price. A step down in sound quality would be vexing. Already a deal breaker...
Convenience/ ease of use/ efficiency:
Ok, leaving absolute sound aside for a moment, streaming etc is an ordered, efficient and immediate solution with detailed metadata close at hand. Music at the flick of the index finger, perfectly in sync with our present tech and social realities. But is it? Forgetting any initial hardware and software learning curve, firstly I have to locate the laptop/tablet/smartphone in whichever room in the house it may be hiding in next to the car keys and upon doing so hope it is charged. Thereafter insert a password, access an app, scroll through a vast array of titles before selecting a track(s). Compare this to walking across the room, choosing a CD, removing it from its cover, inserting in the machine and pressing play. Habit dictates that most of us can physically locate an album without unnecessary delay. It reminds me a little of a sharp marketing strategy applied to a 'lifestyle' range of frozen pasta meals- "Quattro Salti in Padella"- aimed at young harried Northern Italians, eager to streamline their ever more hectic existence and reclaim precious time with smarter choices. The fact is, most of the meals take up to 20 minutes to cook which is similar, and in some cases, even longer than it would to make an equivalent meal from scratch with fresh, wholesome ingredients. Perception is everything.
Storage and clutter:
It's true, a vast CD collection requires space and can be an added curse towards domestic harmony. However how many who have long since ripped their CDs hang on to them 'just in case'? Maybe in the loft or under the bed but still there, somewhere...
Just a few reasons why I'm looking forward to the addition of a new-used ;)- Bel Canto CDP 2...
Sherwood
06-11-2018, 21:11
Most of those with experience of true 'high-end' CDPs implied that the sound from streaming/ dedicated server/DAC etc was not quite up to the mark, regardless of price. A step down in sound quality would be vexing. Already a deal breaker...
I go by my own listening experience. Are you saying you have not done your own direct comparison between a top flight CDP and high quality streamer?
I haven't unfortunately, I was referring to those who have and who commented on the thread... https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?60805-High-end-CDP-to-streaming-FLAC
Sherwood
06-11-2018, 21:21
As to convenience, Audivarna catalogues my entire FLAC collection and ensures good integration with Tidal. I can locate any file or album in a few keystrokes and create unlimited playlists. If I so desire I can listen to other peoples playlists or to curated collections by genre. I can also download Tidal files to my phone or tablet to play back whilst on the move.
I have kept all my ripped cds just in case a catastrophic media failure destroys my files, but also because I respect the intellectual property rights of performers. It is a pain storing over 3,000 cds, but fortunately I don't have to keep them in the lounge. The are all in Really Useful Box Company crates with copious amounts of silica gel.
None of this would matter if SQ was compromised. It is not!
Geoff
As to convenience, Audivarna catalogues my entire FLAC collection and ensures good integration with Tidal. I can locate any file or album in a few keystrokes and create unlimited playlists. If I so desire I can listen to other peoples playlists or to curated collections by genre. I can also download Tidal files to my phone or tablet to play back whilst on the move.
I have kept all my ripped cds just in case a catastrophic media failure destroys my files, but also because I respect the intellectual property rights of performers. It is a pain storing over 3,000 cds, but fortunately I don't have to keep them in the lounge. The are all in Really Useful Box Company crates with copious amounts of silica gel.
None of this would matter if SQ was compromised. It is not!
Geoff
Interesting comment, thanks Geoff. Can I ask what CDPs you used prior to streaming?
Sherwood
06-11-2018, 22:25
Interesting comment, thanks Geoff. Can I ask what CDPs you used prior to streaming?
The last CDP I owned was the top model Cambridge CDP with 384hz upsampling (can't remember the model number). However, as I have mentioned elsewhere, before going fully to streaming I had extended home demos of Naim and Cyrus players and shorter trials of players including a Roksan Caspian M2, and various big brand models. This was around 4 years ago when I was thinking of getting a new CDP as part of my system rebuilding. Was not really impressed by anything so made the jump fully to streaming and have gradually found a system that I find very revealing and which I can play for extended periods without fatigue. My budget at that time was around 2K and I may have found a CDP player to suit if I was willing to spend more. However, at this point I really don't want to invest hugely in technology developed decades ago.
Geoff
However, at this point I really don't want to invest hugely in technology developed decades ago.
Geoff
There's no new technology in streaming. Digital audio is still digital audio regardless of it being streamed or on a cd. And it was all developed decades ago. It's the implementation that is everything, cd vs file debate is irrelevant.
I had the same Cambridge CD player as you, (840C) it wasn't up to much IMO.
Think it was £800 12 years ago so fairly high up in the mid range.
The point is if a person thinks cd is best then it's likely to be so for the person
Same with vinyl or streaming for that matter.
I still have all three. Don't make any claims as to how hi end it is or any of that but it sounds damn good. Ive heard a few good systems as well. To just demean streaming as 'not up to it' is pretty arrogant imv.
Sherwood
06-11-2018, 22:59
There's no new technology in streaming. Digital audio is still digital audio regardless of it being streamed or on a cd. And it was all developed decades ago. It's the implementation that is everything, cd vs file debate is irrelevant.
I had the same Cambridge CD player as you, (840C) it wasn't up to much IMO.
Yes digital is digital but CD was an implementation of digital that was driven largely by marketing concerns (i.e. the desire to resell music that you had already purchased in an earlier format) and by limitations of the technology of the time (hence the barely adequate sampling rates). It is surprising (to me) that cds produced in the 80s can still sound pretty decent today, but in my view there are many factors which will see this technology be gradually replaced by higher bitrate recordings with the ability, perhaps, to control individual tracks.Digital evolves, as the exponential rise of streaming services in recent decades has demonstrated.
In the case of analogue, an Edison wax cylinder and a modern 33.33rpm both employ the same "writing technology" to "permanently" record airborne sound waves to a physical medium. Both technologies were of their time and part of an evolutionary process that has parallels with today. In fact, the "classic album format" so beloved of many members of this forum embodied compression techniques to get 40 minutes of good quality sound onto two sides of a single 12 inch disc. The fact that this 40 minute window shaped decades of artists work is an artefact of physics and technology.
Geoff
What compression techniques are used to get 40 minutes of music onto the two sides of a 12" diameter LP? As far as I know the artist(e)s involved simply perform and record pieces of music that are, or add up to, no more than 20 minutes.
It is said (perhaps apocryphal) that the total playing time of a CD was chosen to be at least 60 minutes long, so Beethoven's 9th Symphony could be recorded onto a single disc. Most LP versions required two LPs.
With streaming one is, in principle, not limited in time - so can we expect artists to now create 'albums' lasting longer than 74 minutes (the longest amount of time a 5" CD allows)?
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 00:05
What compression techniques are used to get 40 minutes of music onto the two sides of a 12" diameter LP? As far as I know the artist(e)s involved simply perform and record pieces of music that are, or add up to, no more than 20 minutes.
It is said (perhaps apocryphal) that the total playing time of a CD was chosen to be at least 60 minutes long, so Beethoven's 9th Symphony could be recorded onto a single disc. Most LP versions required two LPs.
With streaming one is, in principle, not limited in time - so can we expect artists to now create 'albums' lasting longer than 74 minutes (the longest amount of time a 5" CD allows)?
Albums use RIAA EQ to reduce the space taken up by low frequencies. It is mechanical compression of the groove width which is subsequently reversed by electronic de-compression. Without RIAA EQ the running length of each side of an LP would be far shorter than 20 minutes.
I do not think that time is going to be the defining feature of musical releases as it has been in the past. The classic 12" album created a format for many singer songwriters of 20 min plus 20 min releases. Often there was some mood change between the two sides or the development of a theme over the 20 minutes. The quality of the recording was not constant over the 20 minutes, as the rotational speed of the stylus reduced as the arm moved inwards. Several albums with large dynamic swings towards the end of a side were often compromised and noticeably distorted. The introduction of CDs saw a shift towards longer albums and/or the increased popularity of "best of compilations". The longer albums often contained many "fillers" which has been to the detriment of many artist's output IMHO. With the growth of streaming more and more artists have begun to release single tracks or what we would have previously called EPs. I welcome the greater flexibility that streaming offers and hopefully a reduction in the number of 74 minute CDs with only a handful of decent tracks on them.
Geoff
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 00:12
Think it was £800 12 years ago so fairly high up in the mid range.
The point is if a person thinks cd is best then it's likely to be so for the person
Same with vinyl or streaming for that matter.
I still have all three. Don't make any claims as to how hi end it is or any of that but it sounds damn good. I've heard a few good systems as well. To just demean streaming as 'not up to it' is pretty arrogant imv.
Yes, it was around that price and pretty decent. However, my reason for moving fully to streaming was that I could not find a 2k player in 2014 that significantly improved upon the 840c.
I agree with Grant. I have heard "expensive cd players" and I am familiar with what a top flight analogue set up can sound like. I accept that many forum members will never warm to streaming in any form, and not only from a purely SQ perspective either, but it is a bit much to suggest that users of streaming have somehow lost the plot or merely opted for greater convenience in listening.
Geoff
sq225917
07-11-2018, 00:18
I had an 840c, Colin at Chevron fitted discrete regs a new clock and modded the output stage, transformed it. Had to go a Weiss 202 dac to beat it.
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 01:03
Quality isn't the question, digital is digital (essentially) and in my experience the differences between a good streaming solution vs a quality transport, each into as good a DAC as you can afford, are going to be minimal and certainly far less than the difference in presentation between cartridges - its a bollocks differentiation really.
Ultimately therefore the decision is down to user experience - consequently the argument is the old same old merry go round. Some love to come in from work and faff with ipads and laptops to dial up music and click around to their heart's content.
Frankly I'm appalled at that idea - I can't be arsed with streaming as a way of listening, I think it cheapens the experience and changes behaviour for the worse. I doubt anyone will convince me otherwise and it's clear I'm failing to convince in the other direction.
Handy for auditioning albums though. I bought three CDs this week alone and one LP. That's where it comes into its own. But nothing beats a good vinyl setup (except maybe a R2R).
StanleyB
07-11-2018, 01:13
Quality isn't the question, digital is digital (essentially) and in my experience the differences between a good streaming solution vs a quality transport, each into as good a DAC as you can afford, are going to be minimal and certainly far less than the difference in presentation between cartridges - its a bollocks differentiation really.:rolleyes:
Quality isn't the question, digital is digital (essentially) and in my experience the differences between a good streaming solution vs a quality transport, each into as good a DAC as you can afford, are going to be minimal and certainly far less than the difference in presentation between cartridges - its a bollocks differentiation really.
There's no way of swaying most people from their beliefs. Streaming, digital, vinyl.
40 years ago I asked my brother how he could listen to such a scratched LP. He turned the amp off, and replied "it sounds better than this."
A valid point. However, he's visual, not auditory.
The notion above that the digital quality makes little difference, with a quality DAC. Not agreeing with that...
I flatly refuse to listen to MP3s. And will most probably keep away from streaming services if less than 16 bit/44 kHz.
Have my music on a MacBook, and enjoy the ease of finding something to listen to.
Look forward to trialing Hi-Res tracks at some stage.
AJSki2fly
07-11-2018, 07:30
There's no way of swaying most people from their beliefs. Streaming, digital, vinyl.
40 years ago I asked my brother how he could listen to such a scratched LP. He turned the amp off, and replied "it sounds better than this."
A valid point. However, he's visual, not auditory.
The notion above that the digital quality makes little difference, with a quality DAC. Not agreeing with that...
I flatly refuse to listen to MP3s. And will most probably keep away from streaming services if less than 16 bit/44 kHz.
Have my music on a MacBook, and enjoy the ease of finding something to listen to.
Look forward to trialing Hi-Res tracks at some stage.
I tend to agree, similarly I won’t listen to MP3 or AAC, and haven’t since a friend sent me some new music on MP3 that I had not experienced before and it sounded terrible. I realised what was happening once I got a CD copy and did some reading on MP3 compression. This lead me into looking further into issues on transfer of original master tapes of albums into digital and onto CD back in the 80s and early 90’s, sadly quite a lot were poorly done either through equipment issues or lack of technical knowledge. Hence the plethora of re-mastered re-issues of CD’s, although some cynics would say this is clever marketing ploy. My view is this, I have some CD’s that sound very good played though my Meridian CD player and I have others that just don’t but I do have some on FLAC that are better and in fact have streamed some which sound better as well. Low res digital I recognise as having its place for ease of listening on the go when SQ is not particularly relevant for instance in a car. However as technology moves on then low res may be lost, hopefully anyway.
I try and be optimistic and from what I hear out of my system with my setup, RaspberryPi/HiFiBerry into Caiman Seg that digital can give very good results whether streamed or from a hard file copy.
Yes digital is digital but CD was an implementation of digital that was driven largely by marketing concerns (i.e. the desire to resell music that you had already purchased in an earlier format) and by limitations of the technology of the time (hence the barely adequate sampling rates). It is surprising (to me) that cds produced in the 80s can still sound pretty decent today, but in my view there are many factors which will see this technology be gradually replaced by higher bitrate recordings with the ability, perhaps, to control individual tracks.Digital evolves, as the exponential rise of streaming services in recent decades has demonstrated.
On the contrary 16/44.1 is overkill. When CD came out in '82 there were very few digital recordings and exactly zero 'hi res' digital recordings. 16/44.1 would easily capture the entire frequency response and dynamic range of any master tape in existence.
Since about the turn of the millennium some recordings have been made in 24/192 but the purpose of that is to enable them to bounce tracks around in production without noticeably increasing the noise floor. It adds nothing to replay. 24 bits gives you an immense dynamic range that you simply won't use in replay. By comparison vinyl has a dynamic range of about 12 bits and I don't hear anyone complaining. Reel to Reel is about 14 bits.
The bit rate only relates to the maximum dynamic range possible, it has nothing to do with the sound quality.
The sampling frequency only relates to the maximum frequency that can be recorded and replayed, again this has nothing to do with the sound quality.
Now there is an argument that if the recording is 24/192 then we might as well have 24/192 on replay as well. It's easy and cheap to do it so why not? And I have some sympathy for that view. But the reality is that there is no audible benefit over 16/44.1.
There is no intrinsic sound quality advantage in streaming over CD or in CD over streaming. They both deliver sound in exactly the same way. Streamers that have had attention paid to them in the right areas will sound better than their brethren, likewise for CD players.
Regrettably the engineering required for this plays second fiddle to the marketing reality which aims to address audiophile fantasies like jitter, higher bit depth and sampling rates, and concentrates on selling points like valve output stages, massively engineered transports (which read the disc no better than a ten quid cd rom drive) and of course blingy cases with a desirable badge.
The sooner people drop these fantasies the sooner we can have better digital at lower prices but I can't see that happening anytime soon.
Ali Tait
07-11-2018, 08:28
Good post Martin, agree wholeheartedly.
RobbieGong
07-11-2018, 09:49
Quality isn't the question, digital is digital (essentially) and in my experience the differences between a good streaming solution vs a quality transport, each into as good a DAC as you can afford, are going to be minimal and certainly far less than the difference in presentation between cartridges - its a bollocks differentiation really.
Ultimately therefore the decision is down to user experience - consequently the argument is the old same old merry go round. Some love to come in from work and faff with ipads and laptops to dial up music and click around to their heart's content.
Frankly I'm appalled at that idea - I can't be arsed with streaming as a way of listening, I think it cheapens the experience and changes behaviour for the worse. I doubt anyone will convince me otherwise and it's clear I'm failing to convince in the other direction.
Handy for auditioning albums though. I bought three CDs this week alone and one LP. That's where it comes into its own. But nothing beats a good vinyl setup (except maybe a R2R).
Yep, my sentiments to a T too.
Disks remain my first option as I know the music is still in the same format when it was released by the studio and most likely not tampered with.
For music that really moves me emotionally , I still prefer to buy the disks with the knowledge I can enjoy it at my leisure.
Light Dependant Resistor
07-11-2018, 10:16
CD vs streaming , CD wins hands down IMO.
The storage issue of CD,s - the solution I find is to have as a priority the CD accessible, so every one of them is visible.
I have them arranged along the roof rafters within easy reach although some I use a chair to reach. This way you
get to hear them all, vs boxes or under beds.
Regrettably the engineering required for this plays second fiddle to the marketing reality which aims to address audiophile fantasies like jitter, higher bit depth and sampling rates, and concentrates on selling points like valve output stages, massively engineered transports (which read the disc no better than a ten quid cd rom drive)
It might *read* the disc no better (in terms of noughts and ones), but there's rather more involved in the design of a transport mechanism (vibration control in particular), which notably improves playback quality, and that the over-engineered transports in question address, which a ten quid CD-ROM drive doesn't - and I've heard the effect countless times over the years.
The major Japanese manufacturers of CDPs, such as Sony, and Pioneer (who invented the 'stable platter' mechanism for that very reason) knew it too, which is why many of their top-flight models, produced during the heyday of CD, featured die-cast aluminium transport mechanisms, rather than plastic, which is much more prone to vibration, and other aspects of construction designed to combat vibration.
You can pooh-pooh this as much as you like, but experience tells me that it's reality, and a big reason why the best vintage CDPs (some of which you own) can sonically outperform, and often embarrass, their modern counterparts.
Marco.
Some love to come in from work and faff with ipads and laptops to dial up music and click around to their heart's content. Frankly I'm appalled at that idea...
Lol... We've been here before. The fact is, streaming doesn't *need* to be like that, if you have the right infrastructure in place (this is absolutely crucial) and things are set up properly.
In my case, all I do is switch on my TV, which for music streaming simply acts as a large high-resolution display, select the input on my amp for replaying music stored on the hard-drives, then use the TV remote control to access my music library (which contains around 20,000 albums), then simply select a track or album to play, and that's it!
The process takes no longer than reaching for a CD, opening up the case, then popping it in your CDP and pressing play - and that's how easy streaming music can be if you're set up properly for it - and it sounds every bit as good (arguably better in some cases), providing the DAC used is up to it, than the best CDPs:)
I can't be arsed with streaming as a way of listening, I think it cheapens the experience and changes behaviour for the worse. I doubt anyone will convince me otherwise and it's clear I'm failing to convince in the other direction.
That's absolutely fine, and I respect your choice. However, that's a different argument. All I'm saying is don't disregard streaming for the reasons you've expressed, as it doesn't need to be like that:cool:
Marco.
StanleyB
07-11-2018, 11:02
You can pooh-pooh this as much as you like, but experience tells me that it's reality, and a big reason why the best vintage CDPs (some of which you own) can sonically outperform, and often embarrass, their modern counterparts.
It's this pooh-pooh attitude that some sceptics have that caused me to say very little about the way that my new product, the Dorado, works. Sometimes it's just best to let people listen for themselves.
CD players rely on error correction to solve reading speed variations, scratched discs, vibrations, etc. But error correction doesn't always accurately replace the missing bits. What it does is to replace the missing bits with other bits that will produce a continuity in the signal waveform. In doing so, the correction bits could contain far less audio data than is actually supposed to be present in the missing data. The correction bits are skewed towards reproducing midrange and lower frequencies, which means that higher frequencies are the ones that lose out in playback or accuracy.
A similar situation occurs when a digital circuit is powered by a less than suitable power supply (noise etc). Data error correction then kicks in to make sure a proper audio playback is produced. But those correction bits could easily affect the higher frequencies in a similar fashion. So when you plumb in a better power supply, you could suddenly hear detail and instruments in the higher frequency range that you could not hear before. Just ask the Dorado owners..;).
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 11:08
Lol... We've been here before. The fact is, streaming doesn't *need* to be like that, if you have the right infrastructure in place (this is absolutely crucial) and things are set up properly.
In my case, all I do is switch on my TV, which for music streaming simply acts as a large high-resolution display, select the input on my amp for replaying music stored on the hard-drives, then use the TV remote control to access my music library (which contains around 20,000 albums), then simply select a track or album to play, and that's it!
The process takes no longer than reaching for a CD, opening up the case, then popping it in your CDP and pressing play - and that's how easy streaming music can be if you're set up properly for it - and it sounds every bit as good (arguably better in some cases), providing the DAC used is up to it, than the best CDPs:)
That's absolutely fine, and I respect your choice. However, that's a different argument. All I'm saying is don't disregard streaming for the reasons you've expressed, as it doesn't need to be like that:cool:
Marco.
Some of us don't have TVs Marco in my case for more than a decade, though I also lived without one for most of the 80s and early 90s as well.
A similar situation occurs when a digital circuit is powered by a less than suitable power supply (noise etc). Data error correction then kicks in to make sure a proper audio playback is produced. But those correction bits could easily affect the higher frequencies in a similar fashion. So when you plumb in a better power supply, you could suddenly hear detail and instruments in the higher frequency range that you could not hear before. Just ask the Dorado owners..;).
Replacing the internal SMPS with a linear PSU in my Mutec MC3 +USB master clock / reclocking device / USB receiver had this effect, it was quite marked. USB has all the proper audiophile computer stuff (galvanic isolation, asynchronous etc). Sound quality is essentially the same playing FLAC or from my Audio Note Transport. The linear PSU from Nick Gorham improved sound quality of both.
MikeMusic
07-11-2018, 11:14
Recently compared my wonderful Rega Isis CD player to two Nova Fidelity streamers. Modded X40 and new X45.
Playing the CD on both streamers was a drop down from the Isis - no competition. Isis well ahead.
Playing the *file* from both streamers was too close to call.
Prefer the lesser tech with a physical CD. Like the convenience of a streamer.
Starting from scratch I could choose either for sound quality.
Prices a different decision
Isis around 2nd hand for around £3000 down into high £2000. New £6000+
X45 around £2500 new
X40 was 2nd hand for £900
Recently compared my wonderful Rega Isis CD player to two Nova Fidelity streamers. Modded X40 and new X45.
Playing the CD on both streamers was a drop down from the Isis - no competition. Isis well ahead.
Playing the *file* from both streamers was too close to call.
Prefer the lesser tech with a physical CD. Like the convenience of a streamer.
Starting from scratch I could choose either for sound quality
Hi Mike in what ways do you find streaming more convenient?
Some of us don't have TVs Marco in my case for more than a decade, though I also lived without one for most of the 80s and early 90s as well.
Well, that's fine. But if you had a TV, as most folks do, you'd be able to do as I've described:)
Trust me, I was once as anti-computer/music streaming as you. It took me a while to embrace it properly, and crucially, *understand* how best to implement it into my listening environment. Once done though, you soon realise that most of your antipathy towards it was unjustified (a stubborn and illogical reluctance to embrace new technology), and that the benefits considerably outweigh any negatives.
Marco.
MikeMusic
07-11-2018, 11:28
Hi Mike in what ways do you find streaming more convenient?
*After* ripping.....
It is close to instant and very convenient. I can call up anything on file and play, jump around albums, artists and genres at will.
Can call up album details on the streamer which was quite useful. The remote could take the place of a PC type front end.
Have nearly 3000 CDs, but when I thought about my favourites I play again and again more like 300 so would easily fit on a streamer. Only need to rip that many too.
I am ignorant of the structure, but have to ask what is the equipment chain in streaming.
I am guessing that it is stored on HD by the service supplier, and derived originally from a CD. If this is so then the long chain to our home is a series of things which can only cause the signal deteriorate at least to some degree, whereas with a CD player the signal path is very short.
*After* ripping.....
It is close to instant and very convenient. I can call up anything on file and play, jump around albums, artists and genres at will.
Can call up album details on the streamer which was quite useful. The remote could take the place of a PC type front end.
Have nearly 3000 CDs, but when I thought about my favourites I play again and again more like 300 so would easily fit on a streamer. Only need to rip that many too.
Ok, but is that really quicker/easier/more efficient than the process of choosing and playing a CD?
Well, that's fine. But if you had a TV, as most folks do, you'd be able to do as I've described:)
... you soon realise that most of your antipathy towards it was unjustified (a stubborn and illogical reluctance to embrace new technology), and that the benefits considerably outweigh any negatives.
Marco.
Hi Marco, for me technology is not the issue, it's whether or not the process itself is value added/ 'necessary' or simply a side-step in how we listen to music...
I just timed it for my file streaming. thought of an album of mine. (abbey rd) Typed abb... got it and was playing within 5 secs so yes its more convenient and quicker, plus i did it from my seat using one finger.
I accept folk like to put discs on etc, as i do, but convenience wise file audio has physical media beat. sound wise, imo its at least its equal, and it can be a lot cheaper.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 11:41
I am ignorant of the structure, but have to ask what is the equipment chain in streaming.
I am guessing that it is stored on HD by the service supplier, and derived originally from a CD. If this is so then the long chain to our home is a series of things which can only cause the signal deteriorate at least to some degree, whereas with a CD player the signal path is very short.
The length of the "signal chain", as you put it, is of no relevance.
There is no deterioration.
Clive197
07-11-2018, 11:43
Lest we all forget, vinyl from the late 50’s up till the mid 80’s were compressed because that sounded better on radio, which was how the majority of music was listened to by the great unwashed (non-Audiophiles).
CD is still a great source and unlike today where most music is mastered in high res and then down scaled to suit whatever medium is required. Original masters (especially pop music) can be very poor because they were mastered for radio back in the day.
On a personal note, I use all three mediums discussed depending on mood and degree of laziness.
I just timed it for my file streaming. thought of an album of mine. (abbey rd) Typed abb... got it and was playing within 5 secs so yes its more convenient and quicker, plus i did it from my seat using one finger.
I accept folk like to put discs on etc, as i do, but convenience wise file audio has physical media beat. sound wise, imo its at least its equal, and it can be a lot cheaper.
Hi Grant, did you factor in the time first spent finding the tablet/smartphone etc required to access the music? ;-)
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 11:48
Hi Grant, did you factor in the time first spent finding the tablet/smartphone etc required to access the music? ;-)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg
Hi Grant, did you factor in the time first spent finding the tablet/smartphone etc required to access the music? ;-)
i used the pc, which is beside me and on all the time. an ipad isnt much slower, in fact probably quicker. if im listening to music these things are switched on at same time as everything else. I can power up my whole system from my iphone too...
i used the pc, which is beside me and on all the time. an ipad isnt much slower, in fact probably quicker. if im listening to music these things are switched on at same time as everything else. I can power up my whole system from my iphone too...
I suppose my point is that given the time difference involved is a question of a few seconds, it's not exactly life-changing or enhancing (unless of course one suffers from restricted movement or disabilities, in which case the convenience becomes obvious and, indeed, desirable)
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 12:03
a stubborn reluctance to embrace new technology
Bought my first computer in 1981, my first Mac in 1985, indeed I worked for Apple at one point in the 90s, I've spent the bulk of my career in the IT industry as a software specialist, management consultant or latterly in IT management more generally. I've been involved in some pretty cool initiatives, working for some top companies and government departments, even a spell in No.10.
It's not a reluctance to embrace technology, rather it's a deep-seated skepticism (based from experience) about the use cases for technology, where the latest/greatest/shiniest are often about convenience for the industry (retaining or indeed re-training consumers to consume differently) rather than true convenience for people, even though they are sold as improvements for the masses.
CD for example allowed the audio industry to treble what they charged for product even as the manufacturing costs plummeted. Streaming allows yet another re-packaging of the same old same old so that people buy it again (in this case, by subscription), or buy new hardware (again).
Generally speaking I'm with the overall philosophy that music is best heard in the medium in which it was first encoded. I have 90 year old 78s that deliver deep emotion through the craclking, that sounded worse when transcribed to LP and worse again when streamed on Spotify. 50s mono that really can't be made to sound any better - magical. Late 80s Phillips DDD CDs that are notably better than the LP that was released of them. For that reason alone the 'convenience' of streaming has precisely zero appeal - there is a physical, tactile quality to owning music - that word 'owning' is key too - that faffing with an iPad can never give me.
It's not about technology it's about the overall experience of musical consumption. Frankly the idea of dialling up music on a giant telly I find utterly appalling.
Hi Marco, for me technology is not the issue, it's whether or not the process itself is value added/ 'necessary' or simply a side-step in how we listen to music...
Hi Drew,
It largely depends on your lifestyle, but also how successfully you incorporate file-based audio into your living environment, in order that listening to music is as straightforward and simple a process as possible. Only when the latter is the case, and thus when it's a pleasure to indulge in, does it not act as the sidestep you mention, or worse, a hindrance to your enjoyment of music.
In that respect, you have to get the infrastructure right, so that you're encouraged (not discouraged) to use the facility.
In that respect, it's rather like having a warm, relaxing and comfortable room in which to sit and enjoy listening to music. No matter how wonderful sounding the system is, you won't be encouraged to use it if the environment in question doesn't lend itself to making the experience enjoyable - and so it is with streaming/file-based audio:)
Marco.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/1z1vejc.jpg
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 12:13
Lest we all forget, vinyl from the late 50’s up till the mid 80’s were compressed because that sounded better on radio, which was how the majority of music was listened to by the great unwashed (non-Audiophiles).
CD is still a great source and unlike today where most music is mastered in high res and then down scaled to suit whatever medium is required. Original masters (especially pop music) can be very poor because they were mastered for radio back in the day.
On a personal note, I use all three mediums discussed depending on mood and degree of laziness.
Clive,
the compression you describe was performed by the radio stations to make the music sound warmer with greater presence. In fact, many US radio stations continued to "bugger around" with heavy EQ on FM radio. As a regular traveller to the US on business and for leisure, it was a huge relief to discover Sirius and XM satellite radio where (although using digital compression) the sound balance was relatively flat. I still have the Sirius car kit that could play the satellite channels through a standard car radio.
The compression I was referring to earlier is the equalisation performed at the recording stage in order to increase the playing time of the 12" disc. By coincidence, I have recently purchased a Parasound Phono Preamp that has both analogue and digital outputs. It also has the facility to bypass the onboard RIAA processing and to play music exactly as it was recorded on disc. The thinking behind this is that users can perform the RIAA reverse processing using software. The sound without RIAA is awful and it is amazing that vinyl can sound so good given these technical fudges.
Geoff
CD players rely on error correction to solve reading speed variations, scratched discs, vibrations, etc. But error correction doesn't always accurately replace the missing bits. What it does is to replace the missing bits with other bits that will produce a continuity in the signal waveform. In doing so, the correction bits could contain far less audio data than is actually supposed to be present in the missing data. The correction bits are skewed towards reproducing midrange and lower frequencies, which means that higher frequencies are the ones that lose out in playback or accuracy.
A similar situation occurs when a digital circuit is powered by a less than suitable power supply (noise etc). Data error correction then kicks in to make sure a proper audio playback is produced. But those correction bits could easily affect the higher frequencies in a similar fashion. So when you plumb in a better power supply, you could suddenly hear detail and instruments in the higher frequency range that you could not hear before. Just ask the Dorado owners..;).
Surprised to see you propagating that myth Stan. It really is not how it works at all.
I agree better power supplies make an improvement but it has nothing to do with error correction.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 12:16
http://i63.tinypic.com/1z1vejc.jpg
:D
It's not about technology it's about the overall experience of musical consumption. Frankly the idea of dialling up music on a giant telly I find utterly appalling.
Why? Is it because you find the idea of owning a TV itself (or watching it) "utterly appalling"? It's no real surprise then that someone who's deliberately chosen not to own a television struggles to embrace music streaming...;)
For the majority of us however, what I've described is no more "appalling" than using a TV to select and watch your favourite TV programmes. The process I adopt to stream music is virtually identical, thus I derive as much pleasure from it, as I do from watching films or TV.
Let's not forget too, that I also own a turntable and CD player, which I use (and enjoy) just as frequently to listen to music in the traditional manner, and have many thousands of CDs and LPs to facilitate that process. For me, therefore, it's a question of not restricting my options, and insisting on having the best of both worlds! Why ever not?:cool:
Marco.
Hi Drew,
It largely depends on your lifestyle, but also how successfully you incorporate file-based audio into your living environment, in order that listening to music is as straightforward and simple a process as possible. Only when the latter is the case, and thus when it's a pleasure to indulge in, does it not act as the sidestep you mention, or worse, a hindrance to your enjoyment of music.
In that respect, you have to get the infrastructure right, so that you're encouraged (not discouraged) to use the facility.
In that respect, it's rather like having a warm, relaxing and comfortable room in which to enjoy listening to music. No matter how wonderful sounding the system is, you won't be encouraged to use it, if the environment in question doesn't lend itself to making the experience enjoyable - and so it is with streaming:)
Marco.
My uncertainty is the merit of swapping one infrastructure for another which- though painted a different colour-
has more similarities than differences. Cost/benefit must be considered.
My uncertainty is the merit of swapping one infrastructure for another which- though painted a different colour-
has more similarities than differences. Cost/benefit must be considered.
Well, let me put it this way... Firstly, more and more NEW music is being released as a download only (and that is how music will be sold digitally in future, as CD will eventually become obsolete), so if you listen to NEW music, rather than just stuff you've always known, and wish to continue doing so, then quite simply you'll *need* to embrace streaming, and put the relevant infrastructure into place, ASAP.
Secondly, I can say hand on heart, that I derive just as much pleasure (simply in a different way) from listening to music on my downstairs file-based audio/home-cinema system, which has cost me approximately £4k, as I do from my upstairs high-end separates system, costing well in excess of £30k... It simply depends on the mood I'm in, what music I feel like listening to and whether my wife wishes to join me, in terms of which system we'll choose to use.
That's why I like to keep ALL my options open, and simply couldn't live with having only the one. Now if that sorry situation existed, to borrow Tom's phraseology, I'd consider it "utterly appalling"!;)
Marco.
not sure you have to swap; certainly initially. a good setup can take up little room, like the little Zen devices that many here enjoy. try one and see; if you dont get on then sell it; you wont lose much on price as they sell secondhand and near new very well. you never know you might just prefer it.
CD for example allowed the audio industry to treble what they charged for product even as the manufacturing costs plummeted. Streaming allows yet another re-packaging of the same old same old so that people buy it again (in this case, by subscription), or buy new hardware (again).
That sums up what really annoys me about the whole streaming development. What also drives me nuts is how difficult streaming companies (particularly Spotify) make it to find out WHAT you are actually buying - in terms of actual file formats by which subscription tier. Until they get a lot more transparent and upfront about that, I'm really not interested.
As long as CDs are available I will carry on buying anything I really want in that format .. and getting a huge bargain in comparison to streaming subs, especially now that used CDs are next to nowt to buy.
wee tee cee
07-11-2018, 13:14
not sure you have to swap; certainly initially. a good setup can take up little room, like the little Zen devices that many here enjoy. try one and see; if you dont get on then sell it; you wont lose much on price as they sell secondhand and near new very well. you never know you might just prefer it.Ive been living with a innous zen mini mk2 for the last couple of months...its a marvellous device for file replay-sounds noticeably better than my lap top playing the same files in flac.
improved again with a car battery supply.
its controlled with a cheap amazon fire tablet, which also lets me control spotify on the lap top...my whole cd collection and the world of streaming at my finger tips!!!
AJSki2fly
07-11-2018, 13:40
not sure you have to swap; certainly initially. a good setup can take up little room, like the little Zen devices that many here enjoy. try one and see; if you dont get on then sell it; you wont lose much on price as they sell secondhand and near new very well. you never know you might just prefer it.
Completely agree, my recent adventure into digital hi-res streaming has for me been nothing but a success and has opened up my ears to listening to new music I would not have heard before. For the relative low cost its a bargain, my outlay was around £350. But I could have easily achieved a very good solution with a RaspberryPi and HifiBerry DAC+ Pro for around £100 see this article http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html.
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 13:50
Completely agree, my recent adventure into digital hi-res streaming has for me been nothing but a success and has opened up my ears to listening to new music I would not have heard before. For the relative low cost its a bargain, my outlay was around £350. But I could have easily achieved a very good solution with a RaspberryPi and HifiBerry DAC+ Pro for around £100 see this article http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/10/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-hifiberry.html.
Similar to the combination I tried (I had two RPis, one with the HifiBerry DAC, the second, used the SPDIF output board as my DAC was significantly better than the RPi DAC board) ... yes the performance was good given the money spent but I think the fad around it was well overdone.
Hi Mike,
What also drives me nuts is how difficult streaming companies (particularly Spotify) make it to find out WHAT you are actually buying - in terms of actual file formats by which subscription tier. Until they get a lot more transparent and upfront about that, I'm really not interested.
Sorry, I don't understand the problem and what info you'd specifically like to know?:hmm:
I pay £20 a month for my subscription to Tidal, which gives me unlimited music streaming, of at least CD quality, and which I consider as good value, given that it introduces me to lots of new music, some of which I'd likely never have heard of/considered otherwise, which I can then (should I choose to) buy on CD or vinyl, and 'enjoy properly' (lol;)) on a physical format.
So, given how simple it is for me to access and play my file-based music (as described earlier), what's not to like?:)
Marco.
Albums use RIAA EQ to reduce the space taken up by low frequencies. It is mechanical compression of the groove width which is subsequently reversed by electronic de-compression. Without RIAA EQ the running length of each side of an LP would be far shorter than 20 minutes.
I do not think that time is going to be the defining feature of musical releases as it has been in the past. The classic 12" album created a format for many singer songwriters of 20 min plus 20 min releases. Often there was some mood change between the two sides or the development of a theme over the 20 minutes. The quality of the recording was not constant over the 20 minutes, as the rotational speed of the stylus reduced as the arm moved inwards. Several albums with large dynamic swings towards the end of a side were often compromised and noticeably distorted. The introduction of CDs saw a shift towards longer albums and/or the increased popularity of "best of compilations". The longer albums often contained many "fillers" which has been to the detriment of many artist's output IMHO. With the growth of streaming more and more artists have begun to release single tracks or what we would have previously called EPs. I welcome the greater flexibility that streaming offers and hopefully a reduction in the number of 74 minute CDs with only a handful of decent tracks on them.
Geoff
RIAA equalisation is used because pickup cartridges are electrodynamic: their output is proportional to the transverse velocity of the groove. This means that for equal loudness the low frequency signal would have to have a correspondingly wider amplitude and hence higher transverse velocity, but pickup cartridges of the time (and even now) would not be able to track these excursions: the stylus would be thrown out of the groove. So the groove amplitude was reduced so it could be tracked, leading to lower output which is subsequently boosted by the phonostage. An advantage accruing from the reduction in groove amplitude is the ability to reduce the inter-groove spacing and hence increase the playing time that can be cut into the 80mm or so radial space available: but it was not the prima facie reason - it was a useful 'side effect'.
You are quite correct that the non-constant longitudinal velocity means that the inner grooves suffer 'end of side distortion', but that is due to the relation between the size of the stylus, and affects all frequencies equally.
I disagree that all CDs use the potential 74minutes of playing time. I have many which are simple transcriptions of the LP. Some do contain 'bonus tracks' which are as you say a "filler", but I ignore these additions. I'm also not interested in CD 'singles'; so I would be as uninterested in single-track downloads as I am in playing 7" 45rpm singles.
I welcome the 'best of' compilations available on CD, as there are many artists for which I only like two or three tracks on a particular album of theirs and am not willing to purchase the whole album just for these tracks. Having their 'greatest hits' on one CD works for me.
CD for example allowed the audio industry to treble what they charged for product even as the manufacturing costs plummeted. Streaming allows yet another re-packaging of the same old same old so that people buy it again (in this case, by subscription), or buy new hardware (again).
Not necessarily, if you stream music in order to listen to and/or buy new material, which you don't already have. You seem to be ignoring this very important aspect of the benefits of file-based audio, perhaps because you don't (or rarely) listen to new music?;)
Also, many folks, particularly those with very large music collections, have benefited enormously from ripping it all (or the stuff that they cared about most) to hard-drives, and the huge amount of space that has freed up, which used to be full of 1000s of LPs and CDs - and have subsequently pocked the cash from selling the music that they owned.
That's another benefit of streaming, which so far hasn't been mentioned!:eyebrows:
Marco.
sq225917
07-11-2018, 15:22
Can anyone remember just a few short years ago when every USB dac beat any CD player under 10k according to the magazines, and then every server was better than a USB DAC and now they're going back towards CD;''s as the ultimate high-end.
Time to step off that gravy train.
Not necessarily, if you steam music in order to listen to and/or buy new material, which you don't already have. You seem to be ignoring this very important aspect of the benefits of file-based audio, perhaps because you don't (or rarely) listen to new music?;)
Also, many folks, particularly those with very large music collections, have benefited enormously from ripping it all (or the stuff that they cared about most) to hard-drives, and the huge amount of space that has freed up, which used to be full of 1000s of LPs and CDs - and have subsequently pocked the cash from selling the music that they owned.
That's another benefit of streaming, which so far hasn't been mentioned!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Perhaps, but as I mentioned earlier, it seems many still hold onto their CDs 'somewhere' in the house in the event things go Pete Tong with the ripped files... Re your earlier point about new music, streaming is certainly a great avenue to go down for this reason alone; I'm just not convinced about the SQ and 'convenience' arguments...
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 15:30
RIAA equalisation is used because pickup cartridges are electrodynamic: their output is proportional to the transverse velocity of the groove. This means that for equal loudness the low frequency signal would have to have a correspondingly wider amplitude and hence higher transverse velocity, but pickup cartridges of the time (and even now) would not be able to track these excursions: the stylus would be thrown out of the groove. So the groove amplitude was reduced so it could be tracked, leading to lower output which is subsequently boosted by the phonostage. An advantage accruing from the reduction in groove amplitude is the ability to reduce the inter-groove spacing and hence increase the playing time that can be cut into the 80mm or so radial space available: but it was not the prima facie reason - it was a useful 'side effect'.
You are quite correct that the non-constant longitudinal velocity means that the inner grooves suffer 'end of side distortion', but that is due to the relation between the size of the stylus, and affects all frequencies equally.
I disagree that all CDs use the potential 74minutes of playing time. I have many which are simple transcriptions of the LP. Some do contain 'bonus tracks' which are as you say a "filler", but I ignore these additions. I'm also not interested in CD 'singles'; so I would be as uninterested in single-track downloads as I am in playing 7" 45rpm singles.
I welcome the 'best of' compilations available on CD, as there are many artists for which I only like two or three tracks on a particular album of theirs and am not willing to purchase the whole album just for these tracks. Having their 'greatest hits' on one CD works for me.
Barry,
you have misrepresented what I said.
a) I made no claim that there was a single factor that led to the development of RIAA equalisation and yes the technical problems of tracking highly modulated grooves was a factor. However, the desire to increase the playback times was also a factor and not merely a side effect.
b) Of course, end of side distortion does affect all frequencies. I may be very sensitive to analogue distortion as despite being scrupulous in cartridge alignment I would often find myself distracted by the very audible reduction in SQ as the side drew to a close. I have a few 12" LPs that play at 45rpm and one can clearly hear the improved sound quality that the higher rotational speed permits.
c) Who said all CDs utilised the full playback potential time. To be specific I said that the introduction of CDs saw a shift towards longer playback times. Furthermore, I have no problems with "best of collections" on CD as these clearly represent good value for money for those interested in an artist's best known performances rather than their full catalogue. Indeed, I rather enjoy CD issues where an artist include alternative versions outtakes from the original sessions or the original mono versions of crudely produced stereo releases. Before CDs most albums came in around 40 minutes or less. Since then I would guess that the average CD album is over 50 minutes and that this has not been a good thing for quality.
However, I think you have missed the point I was making. Analogue was never the pure unsullied technology that several on this forum suggest it is. The fact that is has endured and improved to the degree that it undoubtedly has is quite remarkable and a testament to incredible advances in engineering and materials. However, the underlying mechanical challenges and basic physics has meant that good vinyl playback has never been cheap, straightforward, or user friendly. When CD was launched, I hated the sound and did so for many years. As the technology improved, it became more tolerable, but it is only in the last decade or so that I have been able to live with digital sound. It took me far less time to make the transition to streaming, first using my own FLAC files, and then using online streaming services. The reason that I use them no is not solely or even primarily for convenience: it is because I cannot find a better value for money way of listening to my own ripped library or of experiencing new music. I still go regularly to live music and make it a point to try and listen to at least one new album per day. Services like Tidal allow me to do this at very little cost. The suggestion that streaming and the huge listening choices it permits somehow diminishes the listening experience is bewlidering to me!
Geoff
Can anyone remember just a few short years ago when every USB dac beat any CD player under 10k according to the magazines, and then every server was better than a USB DAC and now they're going back towards CD;''s as the ultimate high-end.
Time to step off that gravy train.
Yeah but anyone who believes what the mags say deserves all they get. Amazing how many people are still in thrall to them and the reviewers despite the fact that they've been caught out so many times now, most recently with MQA.
I pay £20 a month for my subscription to Tidal, which gives me unlimited music streaming, of at least CD quality,
Tidal is slightly better than Spotify qua info - at least they provide a link to some useful info re. the file format if you search. Spotify leaves you searching in vain and instead provides a load of superfluous garbage to wade through.
That said, £240 p.a. (recurring) is a lot more than I would pay at the moment for what they offer when I can use a range of free services that provide access to pretty much the same, albeit at a lower quality. I can then further pursue anything that takes my fancy to buy in physical (or virtual) form. The big advantage for the moment being the rock bottom price for CDs - and that you then have copies on file to play when your ISP lets you down (as Virgin inevitably does...)
I doubt I will see the day when CDs are no longer available to be honest ..... not while we can still buy recordings from over a century ago :lol:
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 15:45
Not necessarily, if you steam music in order to listen to and/or buy new material, which you don't already have. You seem to be ignoring this very important aspect of the benefits of file-based audio, perhaps because you don't (or rarely) listen to new music?;)
Also, many folks, particularly those with very large music collections, have benefited enormously from ripping it all (or the stuff that they cared about most) to hard-drives, and the huge amount of space that has freed up, which used to be full of 1000s of LPs and CDs - and have subsequently pocked the cash from selling the music that they owned.
That's another benefit of streaming, which so far hasn't been mentioned!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Point taken on access to new music that's what I use streaming for.
With regards to locally held files, that's a complete hostage to fortune, commercial datacenters have all sorts of checking/replication routines going on to avoid bit rot, but local hard drives don't. Even in my modest collection of locally held FLAC, native CD format (show as AIFF on a MAC) and MP3s (not even a full 1TB) I have multiple files that have issues/won't play, and on domestic kit this results in unplayable backup files as well whether to local backup disks or even to the cloud. And ALL hard drives fail in the end.
Not a lot you can do except (he half-joked) store music in a far less corruptible format in the first place, such as optical media ... (This doesn't of course just apply to music, but also images and textual data).
So .. as for the freeing up of space ... that could well turn out in the mid to long term to be of as much 'benefit' as that experienced by the poor buggers that sold their LP collections in favour of silver disks and came to rue the day.
AJSki2fly
07-11-2018, 15:51
So .. as for the freeing up of space ... that could well turn out in the mid to long term to be of as much 'benefit' as that experienced by the poor buggers that sold their LP collections in favour of silver disks and came to rue the day.
Don’t remind me!:rolleyes::mental:
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 15:55
Tidal is slightly better than Spotify qua info - at least they provide a link to some useful info re. the file format if you search. Spotify leaves you searching in vain and instead provides a load of superfluous garbage to wade through.
That said, £240 p.a. (recurring) is a lot more than I would pay at the moment for what they offer when I can use a range of free services that provide access to pretty much the same, albeit at a lower quality. I can then further pursue anything that takes my fancy to buy in physical (or virtual) form. The big advantage for the moment being the rock bottom price for CDs - and that you then have copies on file to play when your ISP lets you down (as Virgin inevitably does...)
I doubt I will see the day when CDs are no longer available to be honest ..... not while we can still buy recordings from over a century ago :lol:
I doubt that many CDs will be as durable as vinyl. I have numerous CDs which started to oxidise not long after purchase. Several of these are now a copper colour and effectively unplayable. I was also an early adopter of CD burning technology. (Anyone else have a CD SCSI Shuttle Burner?) I bought one of these (around 97?) to make CD compilations for the car. Although the blank discs were not too expensive (bought in bulk) the burn failure rate was ridiculous. i consoled myself with the thought that at least the successful burns would be durable, though was soon disabused of this idea a short time later as more and more discs failed.
More recently, I have bought some M-Disc burners and have been using the M-Disc blanks to archive important documents and files. I doubt that even these will be unreadable in a hundred years, let alone the 1,000 years archival life claimed for them!
Geoff
We will have to agree to disagree:
I agree with part (b) and for the most part with your final paragraph.
I have absolutely no interest in out-takes, mono versions or other mix downs - if they are added as a 'bonus', I just don't play them. (The worse example being Fleetwood Mac's first album, where the bonus tracks include four or five re-takes of a particular track, including all of the false starts. :doh:)
Analogue playback and digital playback are to my ears equally good as well as being equally bad: they're just different in their strengths and weaknesses. I'm always amazed the two of them sound as good as they do. :)
Point taken on access to new music that's what I use streaming for.
With regards to locally held files, that's a complete hostage to fortune, commercial datacenters have all sorts of checking/replication routines going on to avoid bit rot, but local hard drives don't. Even in my modest collection of locally held FLAC, native CD format (show as AIFF on a MAC) and MP3s (not even a full 1TB) I have multiple files that have issues/won't play, and on domestic kit this results in unplayable backup files as well whether to local backup disks or even to the cloud. And ALL hard drives fail in the end.
Not a lot you can do except (he half-joked) store music in a far less corruptible format in the first place, such as optical media ... (This doesn't of course just apply to music, but also images and textual data).
So .. as for the freeing up of space ... that could well turn out in the mid to long term to be of as much 'benefit' as that experienced by the poor buggers that sold their LP collections in favour of silver disks and came to rue the day.
not had that.. had drives that have gone pair shaped but they have been backed up before.
I doubt that many CDs will be as durable as vinyl. I have numerous CDs which started to oxidise not long after purchase. Several of these are now a copper colour and effectively unplayable. I was also an early adopter of CD burning technology. (Anyone else have a CD SCSI Shuttle Burner?) I bought one of these (around 97?) to make CD compilations for the car. Although the blank discs were not too expensive (bought in bulk) the burn failure rate was ridiculous. i consoled myself with the thought that at least the successful burns would be durable, though was soon disabused of this idea a short time later as more and more discs failed.
Quite weird really how that goes; I have heard quite a few who share your experience but never really had any bother to speak of (and the first CD writer I recall having was a SCSI interface...) Until recently I still had some vinyl rips on CD from the early days - still played absolutely fine and only got rid because I've done better transfers.
Have had a couple of duff DVD recording machines though (worst was a Samsung and another was Marantz)
In terms of commercial CD, I have had none go tits up ... and some go way back to the digital dark ages.
Also find the HD fail a non-starter in my book since moving to SSD - did use to have problem with spinning platters failing, usually because I dropped them :lol:
But backup is easy and cheap .... either local or on a cloud somewhere.
And the durability of vinyl is vastly over rated IMV - a second hand disc is only as good as the previous owner's handling and/or storage techniques.
Going back to the OP point about people hanging onto the CDs 'just in case', well a lot might not care, but it's actually illegal to get rid of them, unless you delete the music file. That's why I have them stored in a cupboard and 4,000+ CDs in a cupboard minus the jewel cases is a lot better than having them covering nearly two walls in my living room ;)
Going back to the OP point about people hanging onto the CDs 'just in case', well a lot might not care, but it's actually illegal to get rid of them, unless you delete the music file. That's why I have them stored in a cupboard and 4,000+ CDs in a cupboard minus the jewel cases is a lot better than having them covering nearly two walls in my living room ;)
Are you talking about CDs or CD copies? As far as I'm concerned I paid all royalties etc, when I bought the CD, so If I give to someone as a present or take it to a charity shop for them to benefit, that's my business. If you are talking about copies than that's a different matter.
Copies Barry, I got the impression the OP was talking about ripping the CDs then getting rid of them, but people were reluctant to 'just in case'. That isn't the reason most keep them, it's because they have to unless they don't care about copyright. If I read that wrong I should have gone to Specsavers!
Sure you can do what you want with them, but if the music is ripped to a hard drive and you give it away/sell it, then no, unless of course you delete the file.
Copies Barry, I got the impression the OP was talking about ripping the CDs then getting rid of them, but people were reluctant to 'just in case'. That isn't the reason most keep them, it's because they have to unless they don't care about copyright. If I read that wrong I should have gone to Specsavers!
Sure you can do what you want with them, but if the music is ripped to a hard drive and you give it away/sell it, then no, unless of course you delete the file.
Ive got all mine and wont get shot of them.. i am tempted to put quite a few away tho.
Copies Barry, I got the impression the OP was talking about ripping the CDs then getting rid of them, but people were reluctant to 'just in case'. That isn't the reason most keep them, it's because they have to unless they don't care about copyright. If I read that wrong I should have gone to Specsavers!
Sure you can do what you want with them, but if the music is ripped to a hard drive and you give it away/sell it, then no, unless of course you delete the file.
Call me a cynic Tim, but I imagine copyright infringement is the last thought on their mind ;-)
Well, folk will do what they will do ;)
Call me a cynic Tim, but I imagine copyright infringement is the last thought on their mind ;-)
A bit like the (c) copyright marking on UK bank notes - I bet that alone deterred a lot of forgers!
Hate to point this out but it is illegal to copy your cds even if you keep them afterwards (in the UK anyway).
One of these days a test case will happen re this. Best to keep your cds safe. And keep a few copies of the rip to cover accidents and theft/fire. My living room is covered with vinyl and cds plus kit. Any other room left can be used to sit in
I doubt that many CDs will be as durable as vinyl. I have numerous CDs which started to oxidise not long after purchase. Several of these are now a copper colour and effectively unplayable. I was also an early adopter of CD burning technology. (Anyone else have a CD SCSI Shuttle Burner?) I bought one of these (around 97?) to make CD compilations for the car. Although the blank discs were not too expensive (bought in bulk) the burn failure rate was ridiculous.
The was an issue with one of the Du Pont plants in Germany back in the late 1980s and it was sorted almost 30 years ago now. You must be very unlucky to have numerous CDs from that plant. Provided they are sensibly stored it would take many thousands of years for CDs to degrade to unplayable.
Writeable discs work differently and won't last anything like as long.
Not had any discs go funny on me. Burnt discs all went unusable after a few years. I don't burn them now.
I have a couple of discs that have discoloured and are now a 'gold' colour, but they play perfectly.
Hate to point this out but it is illegal to copy your cds even if you keep them afterwards (in the UK anyway).
It was/ is also illegal to record radio broadcasts without a licence. I think my Chemistry teacher in the '80s was the only proud owner of one in the whole of the UK. How many Sunday night chart show cassettes, compilations and such found their way from the radio onto tdks, maxells etc? Not to mention current attitudes to (unpaid) streaming online...
I've few that won't play due to dirt or damage but at just a couple of quid a pop they've been replaced with new ones.
Not had any that were from the 'tainted' factory but I didn't start buying CDs until 1995 by which time the problem was long since resolved.
Yes I was a fanatical analogue hold-out and really resented being forced to move to CD when new releases on vinyl stopped.
Hate to point this out but it is illegal to copy your cds even if you keep them afterwards (in the UK anyway).
I think that would never hold up in court and it won't be tested either. Having the files without CDs tho, might one day although I doubt it unless they were being used for commercial purposes
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 18:11
The was an issue with one of the Du Pont plants in Germany back in the late 1980s and it was sorted almost 30 years ago now. You must be very unlucky to have numerous CDs from that plant. Provided they are sensibly stored it would take many thousands of years for CDs to degrade to unplayable.
Writeable discs work differently and won't last anything like as long.
PDO Blackburn also produced discs that bronzed (ie oxidised).
Hate to point this out but it is illegal to copy your cds even if you keep them afterwards (in the UK anyway).
Cameron made it legal - and then had to make it unlegal again when a court ruled in favour of the big boys.
Probably wanted to feel more comfortable about all the rips he had on his iPod :lol:
PDO Blackburn also produced discs that bronzed (ie oxidised).
So they did, forgot about that. But it was over a quarter of a century ago!
I think that would never hold up in court and it won't be tested either. Having the files without CDs tho, might one day although I doubt it unless they were being used for commercial purposes
I agree but it is still illegal. I mean wouldn't bother me either morally or otherwise but it might with some people.
Anyway my point was that keep them or sell them it doesn't matter, it's copying them that is against the law. So the argument for keeping them is your moral responsibility to the artist, nothing to do with the Law. And the moral argument is debatable.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 18:24
So they did, forgot about that. But it was over a quarter of a century ago!
I lost a handful of CDs to the dreaded rot.
The PDO site in Blackburn closed down a good while ago.
The rot was due to the use of silver for the reflective layer.
The problem was cured by switching to aluminium.
I lost a handful of CDs to the dreaded rot.
The PDO site in Blackburn closed down a good while ago.
The rot was due to the use of silver for the reflective layer.
The problem was cured by switching to aluminium.
I seem to recall it was something to do with cellulose - they used the wrong type or something. But I'm probably getting that mixed up with something else.
Consensual Sex with various Royals, Attempting to hinder the succession to the throne and Calling for the abolition of the monarchy are all still treasonable offences in this country punishable with life in prison but are unlikely to be upheld in court. Especially if you were trying to stop Charlie boy become king
Consensual Sex with various Royals, Attempting to hinder the succession to the throne and Calling for the abolition of the monarchy are all still treasonable offences in this country punishable with life in prison but are unlikely to be upheld in court. Especially if you were trying to stop Charlie boy become king
Are they really? I seem to recall Treason being deleted as a charge?
Anyway it's funny this thread. Lots of arguments against CD that don't hold up when no-one has mentioned the only one that does (in my view): The crappy jewel cases. I seem to be able to break them just by taking the disc out to play it.
Theadmans
07-11-2018, 18:35
In my case, all I do is switch on my TV, which for music streaming simply acts as a large high-resolution display, select the input on my amp for replaying music stored on the hard-drives, then use the TV remote control to access my music library (which contains around 20,000 albums), then simply select a track or album to play, and that's it!
Marco.
Just wondering Marco - after you have selected what you want to listen to on the TV do you switch the set off?
I think I would find having the TV on whilst listening distracting (I'd probably end up staring at it).
I use a cheap Amazon 8HD tablet to choose my music - then put it down to listen to the music. Occasionally I'll pick it up to see how long is left or perhaps Google some facts about the recording. But my main focus is listening to the music.
Regarding some of the comments about CD longevity. I have around 5000 discs. I still have the first ones I bought in 1985. I regularly inspect the early ones. Out of all these discs I am only aware of 2 that have developed problems. A Nick Drake "Pink Moon" disc pressed by PDO Blackburn and an early W.German Polydor Jimi Hendrix "Electric Ladyland" disc in a 2CD fatboy case.
I think it depends on how you listen to the music. For background wallpaper I’d be happy with streaming although I don’t use it.
On the other hand I tend to use the system more as an occasional treat, no more than a few hours now and then. I then use the CD player which is obviously more hands on. I like to take my time and fiddle about. Different strokes for different folks. I changed the CD player last year after considering the Innuos stuff but it’s not for me so far. Call me old fashioned....
Tidal is slightly better than Spotify qua info - at least they provide a link to some useful info re. the file format if you search. Spotify leaves you searching in vain and instead provides a load of superfluous garbage to wade through.
That said, £240 p.a. (recurring) is a lot more than I would pay at the moment for what they offer when I can use a range of free services that provide access to pretty much the same, albeit at a lower quality. I can then further pursue anything that takes my fancy to buy in physical (or virtual) form. The big advantage for the moment being the rock bottom price for CDs - and that you then have copies on file to play when your ISP lets you down (as Virgin inevitably does...)
I doubt I will see the day when CDs are no longer available to be honest ..... not while we can still buy recordings from over a century ago :lol:
Lol... One thing I've concluded with forums is that they're largely populated by grumps and tightwads! I'm just not wired that way;)
The other day someone said that when in a supermarket they'd rather stuff their pockets full of their groceries, than pay 5p for a carrier bag... Now you're begrudging paying about 65p a day to listen to an unlimited amount of almost any music you can think of! It's an alien world:D
I haven't bought a CD for months, and can't see that situation changing much in future. It doesn't matter how cheap they are. Vinyl's a different matter, but even that I'm cutting down on, simply because of a lack of space. I like discovering new music, not just listening to old stuff, and streaming facilitates that need nicely.
As far as Virgin goes, I've had no such problems here, and instead totally faultless service:cool:
Marco.
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 19:23
Lol... One thing I've concluded with forums is that they're largely populated by grumps and tightwads! I'm just not wired that way;)
The other day someone said that when in a supermarket they'd rather stuff their pockets full of groceries, than pay 5p for a carrier bag... Now you're begrudging paying about 65p a day to listen to an unlimited amount of almost any music you can think of! It's an alien world:D
I haven't bought a CD for months, and can't see that situation changing much in future. It doesn't matter how cheap they are. Vinyl's a different matter, but even that I'm cutting down on, simply because of a lack of space. I like discovering new music, not just listening to old stuff, and streaming facilitates that need nicely.
As far as Virgin goes, I've had no such problems here, and instead totally faultless service:cool:
Marco.
Remember that Tidal also allows files to be downloaded to a pc, phone or tablet for offline playback. This means that even if your internet is crap or unreliable, you can still download files overnight at whatever speed your system can cope with.
With regards to locally held files, that's a complete hostage to fortune, commercial datacenters have all sorts of checking/replication routines going on to avoid bit rot, but local hard drives don't. Even in my modest collection of locally held FLAC, native CD format (show as AIFF on a MAC) and MP3s (not even a full 1TB) I have multiple files that have issues/won't play, and on domestic kit this results in unplayable backup files as well whether to local backup disks or even to the cloud. And ALL hard drives fail in the end.
That's why it pays to have friends with similar interests! There's a group of us here who do streaming and enjoy similar tastes in music, and we share our downloads with each other, by borrowing each other's hard-drives and transferring the files to our own drives/clouds, that way if any of the drives goes tits up, there are always multiple backups:)
So far however, after years of doing this, only one hard-drive has failed. In my experience, as long as they're kept powered up 24/7 in a stable, temperature-controlled environment, there are unlikely to be any issues.
Marco.
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 19:35
PDO Blackburn also produced discs that bronzed (ie oxidised).
When your cd collection runs into several thousands you end up with quite a few dodgy discs. I think that several John Martyn CDs were badly affected and some Joan Armatrading albums too.
Unless you rip your CDs and have the results verified by Accurip then you might not realise how many CDs are less than perfect. The error correction built into CD players can often disguise dropouts and a few missing "bits" here and there. However, I am convinced that this error correction is audible. It is interesting that the error correction lights on early CD players were soon phased out, as the frequency with which they flashed made the "perfect sound forever" mantra laughable!
Geoff
So far however, after years of doing this, only one hard-drive has failed. In my experience, as long as they're kept powered up 24/7 in a stable, temperature-controlled environment, there are unlikely to be any issues.
.
No that's deffo not the case and I'm sure there's a few IT consultants on here who will tell you that too. You need to keep at least three copies with one off site or in a fireproof safe. Hard drives fail all the time and you think it is fine until one day it isn't. There's no warning.
Lol... One thing I've concluded with forums is that they're largely populated by grumps and tightwads!
Have you ever considered that forums may also be populated by people who do not have an endless stream of expendable income and need to spend their money prudently???
Sorry, but I don't think calling those who don't follow your particular preference 'grumps and tightwads' conducive to a civil discussion.
Not pleased ....
Hi Adam,
Just wondering Marco - after you have selected what you want to listen to on the TV do you switch the set off?
I think I would find having the TV on whilst listening distracting (I'd probably end up staring at it).
I've set the TV to go into sleep mode once a music selection has been made, so that there is no distraction, and it only 'wakes up' when I push a button again on the remote control. Kodi/OSMC is such a brilliant interface, and because my TV and amplifier (both Sony devices) are synced, I can use the one remote to control everything: system volume, track selection, the lot!:)
Marco.
Have you ever considered that forums may also be populated by people who do not have an endless stream of expendable income and need to spend their money prudently???
Sorry, but I don't think calling those who don't follow your particular preference 'grumps and tightwads' conducive to a civil discussion.
Not pleased ....
It was largely tongue-in-cheek, daftee. Did you miss the smilies?:doh:
In any case, it's not about having an "endless stream of expendable income", but knowing how to enjoy yourself, whilst still living within your means. It does strike me that *some* people aren't very good at the former, but experts at treating every penny as a prisoner, even when they don't need to!;)
Marco [doesn't smoke, or drink to excess, so spends his money on other things].
walpurgis
07-11-2018, 19:45
When CD hit the market they told us it was "perfect sound". As "perfect sound" obviously can't be improved on, CD has to be the ultimate sound source. So there!! :)
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 19:53
No that's deffo not the case and I'm sure there's a few IT consultants on here who will tell you that too. You need to keep at least three copies with one off site or in a fireproof safe. Hard drives fail all the time and you think it is fine until one day it isn't. There's no warning.
The issue is not whether a hard drive will fail but when. A WD 4tb passport can be bought for around 90 quid. A typical album ripped to FLAC takes up around 350mb or thereabouts so that a 4tb drive can hold over 10,000 albums. That's less than 1p per album! So if you have a master drive and 2 backups that's around 3p per album.
Of course, these cost estimates will be higher if you have fewer files to backup, but we are still talking peanuts.
Geoff
AJSki2fly
07-11-2018, 20:13
No that's deffo not the case and I'm sure there's a few IT consultants on here who will tell you that too. You need to keep at least three copies with one off site or in a fireproof safe. Hard drives fail all the time and you think it is fine until one day it isn't. There's no warning.
Quite correct, so putting on the sad IT hat here we go. Generally spinning Hard drive rotate at 2400rpm and there are faster ones and rely on a bearing which with time wears out and then things wobble, this makes it hard for the read/write head to stay on the concentric track where the data is. Then there is the read-write head which is smaller that the sharp end of a pin, this is moved by an electromechanical mechanism to position it across the disc very quickly, it also wears out, then there are the electronic components to control it all which have a life. So the answer is multiple back up copies.
Oh by the way SSD (solid state drive) fail and usually catastrophically, they are made of non-volatile memory chips, non-volatile means they keep there last state even if power is removed. Each chip is in simple terms a lot of on/off switches ganged together, they are extremely small and work at nano levels, the switch represents a zero or one depending on its state and each is known as a bit, 8 bits make a byte, a kilobyte is 1024bytes, and so on, so you get the idea that they very small indeed when we are talking gigabytes of storage. So as we know if you turn a switch on and off enough times it will wear out and fail. You may argue that when you write data to a SSD that it only happens once, not necessarily true, depending on the data management system the data may be moved around regularly to make the storage access efficient. SSDs are also susceptible to damage from current fluctuations so a failing logic board can also take out the SSD, whether in a computer or the electronics the SSD is plugged into, they also hate electrostatic.
So in simple terms hard drives are volatile and it gets worse as they get older, like most things in life.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The issue is not whether a hard drive will fail but when. A WD 4tb passport can be bought for around 90 quid. A typical album ripped to FLAC takes up around 350mb or thereabouts so that a 4tb drive can hold over 10,000 albums. That's less than 1p per album! So if you have a master drive and 2 backups that's around 3p per album.
Of course, these cost estimates will be higher if you have fewer files to backup, but we are still talking peanuts.
Geoff
A good few years ago I lost 2 drives in 4 days. Both same brand and both went the same way. I was a bit jittery until I got new drives in and the files copied over. Bought 2 different ones to avoid a similar situation. Both are still working as are the 2 others I got later. Im due a failure soon Touch wood.
Once I have the cash I will get another one as back up of all my backups. Lol. Oh yes I have another unit with 2 drives in that have copies too. Tbh only one is bang up to date mostly. The others get topped up every couple of months
The issue is not whether a hard drive will fail but when. A WD 4tb passport can be bought for around 90 quid. A typical album ripped to FLAC takes up around 350mb or thereabouts so that a 4tb drive can hold over 10,000 albums. That's less than 1p per album! So if you have a master drive and 2 backups that's around 3p per album.
Of course, these cost estimates will be higher if you have fewer files to backup, but we are still talking peanuts.
Geoff
Agree the cost is not really a factor, not having sufficient back-ups and thinking your hard drive is never going to fail is a big factor.
But if you are streaming from the internet it isn't an issue anyway.
I'm certainly not arguing against streaming here. I don't use it myself but the reason for that is nothing to do with sound quality, reliability or any thing like that.
For me once we dispense with the sound quality issue then it just comes down to what suits your listening habits. I have almost all my favourite albums on CD now (I already had them on vinyl) so I'm not interested in paying £20 a month to listen to them on Tidal or whatever. I'm old school; I put an album on and I sit down and listen to the whole thing. None of this chopping and changing songs and albums unless I'm testing or demoing. And new music does not interest me anymore.
My personal comparison is between a Marantz CD63KI and Spotify Premium played on a Galaxy S6 both through the same amp and speakers.
The streamed music sounds like there is a blanket over the speakers, quiet, muffled and undetailed compared to CDs.
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 20:48
So far however, after years of doing this, only one hard-drive has failed. In my experience, as long as they're kept powered up 24/7 in a stable, temperature-controlled environment, there are unlikely to be any issues.
Marco.
You've just been lucky. In the real (professional) world of IT, hard drives fail regularly. It's not a matter of luck it's a matter of statistical near-certainty at some stage.
And you totally ignore the whole question of bit rot.
No that's deffo not the case and I'm sure there's a few IT consultants on here who will tell you that too. You need to keep at least three copies with one off site or in a fireproof safe. Hard drives fail all the time and you think it is fine until one day it isn't. There's no warning.
Yup.
Also Marco, on the question of listening to music in rooms dominated by giant tellys, you are indeed right, it's the display that troubles me. I can cope with a record player rotating, I can cope with a fluorescent display ticking down the seconds, what I can't cope with at all is a giant screen shouting the composer and track name at me. Music should waft from the space between speakers, having an LCD display hectoring me in four inch letters has been extremely unsettling every time I've experienced it, like some nightmare Lieder concert turned into a karaoke evening.
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 20:49
My personal comparison is between a Marantz CD63KI and Spotify Premium played on a Galaxy S6 both through the same amp and speakers.
The streamed music sounds like there is a blanket over the speakers, quiet, muffled and undetailed compared to CDs.
What do you expect from a phone? You need to give streaming a fair chance with a decent transport and DAC. :scratch:
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 20:51
What do you expect from a phone? You need to give streaming a fair chance with a decent transport and DAC. :scratch:
For once we aren't in disagreement here. It's not the sound of streaming I object to it's at least as good as CD, all other things being equal.
My personal comparison is between a Marantz CD63KI and Spotify Premium played on a Galaxy S6 both through the same amp and speakers.
The streamed music sounds like there is a blanket over the speakers, quiet, muffled and undetailed compared to CDs.
But the reason for that is not because the music is streamed. I know this because I have heard streamed music sound exceptionally good. When there's a lot of variables involved, it doesn't pay to jump to conclusions. And don't get me wrong I love jumping to conclusions. :)
I've never tried streaming and tbh probably never will. I'm with Montesquieu on this one, the thoughts of going to a PC for music is the anthesis (hope I used that word correctly) for me, I listen to music to get away from the PC as I associate those with work.
I'm single source here, CDs. The fact that they were in their hay day when I was in my youth probably has something to do with it.
I tried vinyl a few years ago (of course I had records as a young kid too) but found it really agrivating changing sides every 15 minutes. Also looking after them was a chore. The final straw was my CD player ate my Rega RP6 for breakfast and I realised it would take a lot of money and pfaff to equal or better it with vinyl so that was that for me.
There are however *very* few CD players I could live with. Probably all vintage top of the line 1541 DAC models.
I'm old school; I put an album on and I sit down and listen to the whole thing. None of this chopping and changing songs and albums unless I'm testing or demoing.
In that respect, so am I, and rather miraculously streaming music hasn't stopped me from listening to whole albums. Old habits die hard, eh?;)
Marco.
You've just been lucky. In the real (professional) world of IT, hard drives fail regularly. It's not a matter of luck it's a matter of statistical near-certainty at some stage.
And you totally ignore the whole question of bit rot.
Lol - is it anything like gut rot? I've had that!:D Otherwise, it's of no interest to me, as I haven't experienced it. If or when I do, however, I'll be sure not to ignore it;)
I suspect that in the professional world of IT, rather more demand is put upon hard-drives than in a domestic setting, used simply for storing music files, and so in that environment they're more likely to fail.
Also Marco, on the question of listening to music in rooms dominated by giant tellys, you are indeed right, it's the display that troubles me. I can cope with a record player rotating, I can cope with a fluorescent display ticking down the seconds, what I can't cope with at all is a giant screen shouting the composer and track name at me. Music should waft from the space between speakers, having an LCD display hectoring me in four inch letters has been extremely unsettling every time I've experienced it, like some nightmare Lieder concert turned into a karaoke evening.
Did you totally ignore when I said that my TV defaults to sleep mode during playback of music? So all I can see on my "giant telly" is a dark, blank screen. Do keep up, daftee!
Marco.
I've never tried streaming and tbh probably never will. I'm with Montesquieu on this one, the thoughts of going to a PC for music is the anthesis (hope I used that word correctly) for me, I listen to music to get away from the PC as I associate those with work.
Ahem... Did you miss the bit where I described how I access file-based music?:whistle: No PC here! I don't touch a computer, simply a TV remote control:)
There are however *very* few CD players I could live with. Probably all vintage top of the line 1541 DAC models.
As ever, John, you have impeccable taste!:D
Marco.
I often read on the internet when listening, but if not my laptop is still on and close. cant say it puts me off tho. Understand that it could do to others though. Still enjoy spinning the black too but it only happens occasionally at moment; discs more often, coz i enjoy the different presentations from the file system, which is my main listen now. Mostly these days on cans as i've gotten used to them now.
The thing about the big screen in between speakers and often above kit is that it’s like a sort of altar. The equipment is often set out in a way that suggests it’s there’s to be looked at ( the equipment not the telly!) rather than listened to. It’s become an object of worship, all set out perfectly to be admired and revered. It’s actually a bit of a pet hate for me. Sorry.
What do you expect from a phone? You need to give streaming a fair chance with a decent transport and DAC. :scratch:
I totally understand what you're saying however my Marantz cost me £90, could I get a streaming source and DAC that would give me comparable sound quality for £90?
When your cd collection runs into several thousands you end up with quite a few dodgy discs. I think that several John Martyn CDs were badly affected and some Joan Armatrading albums too.
Unless you rip your CDs and have the results verified by Accurip then you might not realise how many CDs are less than perfect. The error correction built into CD players can often disguise dropouts and a few missing "bits" here and there. However, I am convinced that this error correction is audible. It is interesting that the error correction lights on early CD players were soon phased out, as the frequency with which they flashed made the "perfect sound forever" mantra laughable!
Geoff
Many CDs may well be less than perfect but the inbuilt CIRC has a error correction rate of approx. 1byte in 1Gigabyte, if CIRC can’t correct then the player will use interpolation or mute if severe. The old red warning lights on players where lit when the C2 error correction kicked in, it didn’t mean the data couldn’t be corrected. Manufactures removed it because it caused unnecessary concern for the user. CIRC works well and is built into every player, I doubt anybody can detect when it is in operation unless the player audibly mutes.
eisenach
07-11-2018, 21:54
My pre-amp is a Primare 32 with the built-in digital board. I've ripped a lot (but not yet all) of my CDs to a WD NAS attached by ethernet to the digital section of the pre-amp. CD and rip sound equally good.
However, if I'm really listening to music rather than background, it's CD for me every time. It's quicker and a better experience, sound quality notwithstanding.
I mostly listen to classical, so that probably explains it. I listen to a work, rather than a playlist.
Ahem... Did you miss the bit where I described how I access file-based music?:whistle: No PC here! I don't touch a computer, simply a TV remote control:)
Marco.
Oops, sorry boss :spank:
I also put on music to get away from the TV though :D
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 21:56
I totally understand what you're saying however my Marantz cost me £90, could I get a streaming source and DAC that would give me comparable sound quality for £90?
How was the S6 connected?
Was the S6 output level set to maximum?
I gave up arguing that one about it not being a 'PC' in the traditional sense a long time ago Marco. As you no doubt remember my little music server is just a black box, switch it on by pushing a button on the front and the remote is an app on either a phone or tablet. Not unlike a CD player really, accept I have access to all my albums (covert art for most too) from the tablet.
Of course if you prefer squinting at racks and racks of CDs on the wall, selecting and playing each disc or song individually, then go for it, each to their own - but to say I don't want to play music on a PC as I sit at a PC all day, is getting a tad old as a criticism of file based audio.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/tree_zpsyxfuulqe.jpg
The black box to the right of the silver Belkin power unit is my server - it currently holds 50,191 FLAC files using 1.2TB of a 2TB drive.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 22:01
I listen to a work, rather than a playlist.
WTF is a playlist?
I play albums, or works when appropriate.
Rhetorical question - I know perfectly well what a playlist is, and I don't use them ...I suppose I'm old school in that respect ;)
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 22:04
I just don't know what's going on here. Why would anyone think that streaming necessarily entailed the use of large screen tvs or computers or that streaming precluded listening to an album from start to finish.
My pc and network drives are in my downstairs home office. I do not have a TV or computer in my dedicated listening room only a hifi and big comfy chair with footstool. I access my local FLAC files and online Tidal streams using a 4 year old Samsung Tablet or old Google cellphone which is kept constantly charged by a wireless charger.
Most of the time I listen to complete albums, but I do have a number of local playlists and Tidal playlists too.
However, if I so desire, I can stream my FLAC music and Tidal streams to my Smart LG TVs in my lounge or to my bedroom. Both TVs are connected to hifi systems via optical outputs and the sound quality on both systems is great. I especially like the video clips on Tidal.
Geoff
Sherwood
07-11-2018, 22:06
WTF is a playlist?
I play albums, or works when appropriate.
Rhetorical question - I know perfectly well what a playlist is, and I don't use them ...I suppose I'm old school in that respect ;)
You never made compilation tapes for the car? :scratch:
You've just been lucky. In the real (professional) world of IT, hard drives fail regularly. It's not a matter of luck it's a matter of statistical near-certainty at some stage.
And you totally ignore the whole question of bit rot.
Don’t they just. Been there and got the T shirt and been involved in legal activities when a customer loses his data, but, that’s what backup is for and Disaster Recovery schemes. There is also a statistical angle in that the more drives you have and the harder you push them even with enterprise class drives in an enterprise environment you will have failures. The use of the wrong class of drive for the intended application also agrivates the sistuation. But this is where data scrubbing and predictive failure schemes come into there own and life cycling of drives.
For home users though a good quality drive maybe in a Raid 1 configuration with a second backup copy somewhere else is more than adequate.
eisenach
07-11-2018, 22:08
Stratmangler:
"WTF is a playlist?
I play albums, or works when appropriate.
Rhetorical question - I know perfectly well what a playlist is, and I don't use them ...I suppose I'm old school in that respect"
Well, you agree with me, then!
I just don't know what's going on here. Why would anyone think that streaming necessarily entailed the use of ...computers ........My pc and network drives are in my downstairs home office.
Geoff
:doh:
StanleyB
07-11-2018, 22:15
There is also a statistical angle in that the more drives you have and the harder you push them even with enterprise class drives in an enterprise environment you will have failures. The use of the wrong class of drive for the intended application also aggravates the situation. But this is where data scrubbing and predictive failure schemes come into there own and life cycling of drives.
For home users though a good quality drive maybe in a Raid 1 configuration with a second backup copy somewhere else is more than adequate.
I have my music backed up on a mechanical drive, but I play them from an internal 1TB SSD. Since it is mainly reading from the SSD I expect many years of usage out of it.
The thing about the big screen in between speakers and often above kit is that it’s like a sort of altar. The equipment is often set out in a way that suggests it’s there’s to be looked at ( the equipment not the telly!) rather than listened to. It’s become an object of worship, all set out perfectly to be admired and revered. It’s actually a bit of a pet hate for me. Sorry.
Me too, which is why the focal point in our lounge is our lovely inglenook fireplace and wood burner, not the 46" TV:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/9zDSvT.jpg
:cool:
Marco.
I gave up arguing that one about it not being a 'PC' a long time ago Marco. As you no doubt remember my little music server is just a black box, switch it on by pushing a button on the front and the remote is an app on either a phone or tablet. Not unlike a CD player really, accept I have access to all my albums (covert art for most too) from the tablet.
Don't let the form factor fool you - smart phones and tablets are Personal Computers in every sense of the term - ditto smart TVs.
The lack of the 'traditional' parameters from the last millennium is simply a smoke screen :lol:
There is also a statistical angle in that the more drives you have and the harder you push them even with enterprise class drives in an enterprise environment you will have failures.
That's what I suspected, and prompted my reply to Tom. The twin 3TB Seagate 'Personal Clouds' I have here are never pushed hard, and indeed hardly ever get warm. I also find that such things are most likely to fail when they're subjected to power surges or unplugged from the mains, without having been properly powered down.
In that respect I control everything from my laptop, where I can view the operational status of each of my drives, and power them down when necessary. I also ensure that they're kept in a well-ventilated and temperature/mains-stable environment, which I'm sure also helps:)
For home users though a good quality drive maybe in a Raid 1 configuration with a second backup copy somewhere else is more than adequate.
Yup, plus as I said, my mates have all my music stored on their hard-drives, as I do theirs (and we update things regularly), so if one of our drives goes tits up, there's always a back-up available. That's an important part of my 'infrastructure'!;)
Marco.
I'm not going to rise to that one Mikmas as you know exactly what I mean.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 22:54
Well, you agree with me, then!
About playing habits only.
I don't agree with you about CD playback being superior to network/streaming playback.
If one sounds better than the other then you're doing one of them poorly.
My thoughts are for a local FLAC or WAV library only.
Don't let the form factor fool you - smart phones and tablets are Personal Computers in every sense of the term - ditto smart TVs.
Absolutely, but not in my case with just a remote control. The smart TV in question is simply used as a monitor, and the necessary 'computers' (RPi and Seagate drives) are hidden from sight and do their job invisibly, certainly without me needing to touch them:)
Btw, I don't always have a blank screen in front of me when streaming music, but sometimes the cover artwork of the album in question, which I find quite cool.
Marco.
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 23:23
Did you totally ignore when I said that my TV defaults to sleep mode during playback of music? So all I can see on my "giant telly" is a dark, blank screen. Do keep up, daftee!
Big tick for that one (and the wood burner) but a lot of the time you have to shut your eyes!
Oh, and just another plug for technology (used in the right way)... I was just listening to the BBC news, and heard that the band Boy Azooga had won the Welsh Music Prize, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46130165
...so liking a bit of Indie, and not having heard of them, I typed the band name into Tidal, which brought up the album that won them the award (1,2, Kung Fu), then cast it (via Google Chrome) to my smart TV, and less than 10 seconds later I was listening to the album (which is actually rather good) through my downstairs system!
Try doing that with CD;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 23:30
then casted it
Shouldn't that be cast it?
Big tick for that one (and the wood burner) but a lot of the time you have to shut your eyes!
Lol... Why? When the TV's off, it pretty much blends into the room, as it's tucked into the corner. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when a huge plastic TV is made the centrepiece of a room, or worse, when it sits right in between the speakers, thus totally fucking up the imaging!:doh:
That's also one of the reasons why I run two separate systems.... So I can keep my main system upstairs (with valves and vintage Tannoys, etc) 'unmolested' by such things as TVs and the electrically noisy paraphernalia required for music streaming. I ain't daft you know, boyo!;)
Marco.
Shouldn't that be cast it?
Yes, I wrote that originally and thought it looked wrong!:doh::D
Anyway, you know what I mean... These technophobes/anachronistic daftees don't what they're missing!
Marco.
montesquieu
07-11-2018, 23:35
Lol... Why? When the TV's off, it pretty much blends into the room, as it's tucked into the corner. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when a huge plastic TV is made the centrepiece of a room, or worse, when it sits right in between the speakers, thus totally fucking up the imaging!:doh:
That's also one of the reasons why I run two separate systems.... So I can keep my main system upstairs (with valves and vintage Tannoys, etc) 'unmolested' by such things as TVs and the electrically noisy paraphernalia required for music streaming. I ain't daft you know, boyo!;)
Marco.
No I meant a lot of the time in people's placed you have to shut your eyes as the sound is overpowered by a giant telly with track info on it. Not yours obs cos you showed a pic.
Ah I see... Well, as I've shown, it can be done:)
Marco.
Stratmangler
07-11-2018, 23:56
Yes, I wrote that originally and thought it looked wrong!:doh::D
Anyway, you know what I mean... These technophobes/anachronistic daftees don't what they're missing!
Marco.
I knew what you meant.
I also remember you making similar arguments a few short years ago.
It was a source of pleasure to find that your head had been turned by this work of Satan himself :)
I am playing lossless files from my server as I type.
Frank Zappa - The Grand Wazoo.
It sounds magnificent!
I knew what you meant.
I also remember you making similar arguments a few short years ago.
It was a source of pleasure to find that your head had been turned by this work of Satan himself :)
I am playing lossless files from my server as I type.
Frank Zappa - The Grand Wazoo.
It sounds magnificent!
Nice one... Indeed. I was nearly as bad as Tom once, lol!:D
If you're of a mind at all of embracing the undoubted benefits of streaming music (as I've just demonstrated with said indie album), then it's simply a case of rationalising/justifying the concept in your head, and implementing the right infrastructure for YOUR environment, which facilitates the process and makes the whole experience truly worthwhile and enjoyable.
That was only the case for me when I discovered the RPi, and then Duncan introduced me to Kodi/OSMC, which did away with having to use a laptop or iPad/phone to access my music library:)
If I had to fanny around with phones, etc, and use their tiny keys and screens, I'd be giving a huge 'FUCK YOU' to file-based audio!!:exactly:
Thank goodness that's not the case.
Marco.
Primalsea
08-11-2018, 07:56
I understand that the simplicity of just a CD player is attractive to many people, you don’t really need to worry about power cuts, loss of data, space for extra boxes, some of which can be unsightly. For me the extra work involved in getting a streaming system off the ground is far offset by the ability to que up many hundred of hours of music from my tablet as well as access online services and to be able to send audio from my tablet to the hifi. The later is really handy for listening to new music in order to see if I like it.
In many cases the streamer is effectively pretty much a CD player but with the mechanical transport replaced with something that is arguably more reliable and works more consistently. Pretty much anyone with only basic skills could remove the transport mechanism from a CD player and replace it with a Raspberry Pi and they would have a network streamer / music / media server.
mightymonoped
08-11-2018, 10:01
Nice one... Indeed. I was nearly as bad as Tom once, lol!:D
If you're of a mind at all of embracing the undoubted benefits of streaming music (as I've just demonstrated with said indie album), then it's simply a case of rationalising/justifying the concept in your head, and implementing the right infrastructure for YOUR environment, which facilitates the process and makes the whole experience truly worthwhile and enjoyable.
That was only the case for me when I discovered the RPi, and then Duncan introduced me to Kodi/OSMC, which did away with having to use a laptop or iPad/phone to access my music library:)
If I had to fanny around with phones, etc, and use their tiny keys and screens, I'd be giving a huge 'FUCK YOU' to file-based audio!!:exactly:
Thank goodness that's not the case.
Marco.
This is the crux of it all as far as I'm concerned. It's as subjective as anything else music related. There isn't a right or wrong answer to this any more than there's a single solution that meets everyone's needs.
We can only talk to our own needs and preferences and if that resonates with someone else, then fair enough.
My listening is an equal mix of old and new music and the infrastructure I use reflects that. It also reflect what works best for me, in terms of accessibility, ease of use and sound quality compromise for the environment I live in and my financial circumstances.
I have chosen the digital route first and foremost because I do not foresee vinyl working for me with those constraints.
Having said that, I have kept enough 'legacy' infrastructure to accommodate the occasional listening session to either vinyl or CD, both at a level which allows enjoyment without having to constantly plow money and time in search of the Holy Grail.
My digital infrastructure consists of the following:-
Streaming/FLAC: - RPi/Allo DAC powered by battery pack for access to FLAC files directly and streaming services using Volumio running on iPhone/iPad. This is maintained by the very occasional use a Macbook running JRiver to rip files and update the media library.
My day job involves faffing about with computers all day long and I can assure you that the last thing I want to do is faff about with them when I get home. My disability has tailored my use of this infrastructure to be as convenient and 'painless' as possible for me, for everything I use it for. That device of Satan (mobile phone) is my constant companion, as it is a constant lifeline. It's easy to carry when using crutches and is basically a portable computer that can help with almost any task I need to perform in work or at home. (e.g I use it to listen to choose both new and old music to listen to then lookup recipes, while I'm cooking in the kitchen :-)
CD Setup: - Audio Analogue Paganini Mk2 as transport into a *XiangSheng DAC-01a (using both SS and Tube output depending on mood)
I can only talk to what I use most often given that I have both digital sources available with little difference in the effort involved, and that would have to be the RPi setup.
In my room with my partnering equipment, I find the RPi/Allo combination outperforms my CD setup in every sense, so much so that I rarely listen to the CD setup now. The difference in sound quality and ease of access to both old and new music wherever I am in the house has resulted in it being a bit of a 'no-brainer' for me. But that's just for me! :-)
*No, I haven't got the WE valve, but I have tried some decent ones from GE and Reflektor
This is the crux of it all as far as I'm concerned. It's as subjective as anything else music related. There isn't a right or wrong answer to this any more than there's a single solution that meets everyone's needs.
We can only talk to our own needs and preferences and if that resonates with someone else, then fair enough.
My listening is an equal mix of old and new music and the infrastructure I use reflects that. It also reflect what works best for me, in terms of accessibility, ease of use and sound quality compromise for the environment I live in and my financial circumstances.
I have chosen the digital route first and foremost because I do not foresee vinyl working for me with those constraints.
Having said that, I have kept enough 'legacy' infrastructure to accommodate the occasional listening session to either vinyl or CD, both at a level which allows enjoyment without having to constantly plow money and time in search of the Holy Grail.
My digital infrastructure consists of the following:-
Streaming/FLAC: - RPi/Allo DAC powered by battery pack for access to FLAC files directly and streaming services using Volumio running on iPhone/iPad. This is maintained by the very occasional use a Macbook running JRiver to rip files and update the media library.
My day job involves faffing about with computers all day long and I can assure you that the last thing I want to do is faff about with them when I get home. My disability has tailored my use of this infrastructure to be as convenient and 'painless' as possible for me, for everything I use it for. That device of Satan (mobile phone) is my constant companion, as it is a constant lifeline. It's easy to carry when using crutches and is basically a portable computer that can help with almost any task I need to perform in work or at home. (e.g I use it to listen to choose both new and old music to listen to then lookup recipes, while I'm cooking in the kitchen :-)
CD Setup: - Audio Analogue Paganini Mk2 as transport into a *XiangSheng DAC-01a (using both SS and Tube output depending on mood)
I can only talk to what I use most often given that I have both digital sources available with little difference in the effort involved, and that would have to be the RPi setup.
In my room with my partnering equipment, I find the RPi/Allo combination outperforms my CD setup in every sense, so much so that I rarely listen to the CD setup now. The difference in sound quality and ease of access to both old and new music wherever I am in the house has resulted in it being a bit of a 'no-brainer' for me. But that's just for me! :-)
*No, I haven't got the WE valve, but I have tried some decent ones from GE and Reflektor
similar to me Tony. Digital is a great advance for the mobility challenged.
MikeMusic
08-11-2018, 15:18
Ok, but is that really quicker/easier/more efficient than the process of choosing and playing a CD?
Yes. Once all is set up and ripped on the drive.
Still prefer the CD player right now
mightymonoped
08-11-2018, 15:46
similar to me Tony. Digital is a great advance for the mobility challenged.
I took your setup as guidance to get the Aukey 20000 mAh Powerbank and 2 USB switches (one for Recharging, one for Power On/off for the RPi) Grant. Improves the sound and makes the whole system so much straightforward to use! :youtheman:
I took your setup as guidance to get the Aukey 20000 mAh Powerbank and 2 USB switches (one for Recharging, one for Power On/off for the RPi) Grant. Improves the sound and makes the whole system so much straightforward to use! :youtheman:
great. the switches make a big difference
I haven’t read 16 pages so I suspect this has been said already............but
The big plus for me re CD is that great music is now so very cheap.
AJSki2fly
08-11-2018, 17:11
I have my music backed up on a mechanical drive, but I play them from an internal 1TB SSD. Since it is mainly reading from the SSD I expect many years of usage out of it.
Maybe, maybe not, they fail for all sorts of reasons.
I haven’t read 16 pages so I suspect this has been said already............but
The big plus for me re CD is that great music is now so very cheap.
Has been mentioned - but definitely worth repeating
My latest acquisition was two Radiohead CDs (Amnesiac and The Bends) - both pretty much pristine condition ... and under £5 for the pair - with free postage ....
I usually use Music Magpie on t' bay - very accurate descriptions, quick despatch and haven't let me down yet. ;)
Pete The Cat
09-11-2018, 18:58
The more I listen, the more I find the mastering of individual recordings has greater influence than the format. For back catalogue CDs I try to buy pre-late '90s versions to avoid the effects of the loudness wars. I run a Linn Karik and Numerik and have a spare laser ready if needed so will hopefully get a few more years out of them.
I appreciate both CD and vinyl and find that each format is better than the other at some aspect of sound performance. No dogma here.
Pete
I think if you haven't heard streaming, CD and vinyl all sound so totally sublime that you forget about the format or the kit in the sheer enjoyment of it then you need to get out to some meets or whatever and hear what is possible.
It's all about the implementation. It's not straightforward to get the best out of any of them but it can be done and it doesn't have to cost a fortune.
It's all about the implementation. It's not straightforward to get the best out of any of them but it can be done and it doesn't have to cost a fortune.
That was the deal breaker for me Martin when I decided to adopt file based audio as my primary format, I couldn't get better sound quality for the same money. Easy for me though as I'm IT literate and enjoy it, I also like the fact I can solve problems easily should they ever arise.
I do understand why it puts some people off though, but I don't understand some of the reasons given for not liking it, or outright declarations of superiority of one format over the other. That's a bit crass IMHO as it's a preference, each format has it's own strengths and weaknesses, just pick your particular poison and enjoy.
Each to their own.
(and don't misread the above Martin, I'm generalising with the comment about what folk say - I think you're a top bloke :))
AJSki2fly
10-11-2018, 06:33
I do understand why it puts some people off though, but I don't understand some of the reasons given for not liking it, or outright declarations of superiority of one format over the other. That's a bit crass IMHO as it's a preference, each format has it's own strengths and weaknesses, just pick your particular poison and enjoy.
Each to their own.
I completely agree Tim, like you I’m in IT and have been for many years. I was an early CD and then digital file/storage adopter, I recognised the limitations of each, although some a bit later on, I worked around these getting the best I could for what I could afford and enjoyed what I had. I resisted streaming until very recently for several reason, but for me it is now coming of age in terms of quality and VFM and is the future.
I do understand why people are put off, recently I came across a box containing a Rpi a HiFiBerry dac and a power supply, a rpi display, it has a nice cue aluminium facia with a couple of selector buttons, a metal case and on the rear all the inputs/outputs for the aforementioned. The price was £1295 inc vat, I could not believe. But I completely understand why people are put off when they are presented boxes at this cost level, it would put anyone off, unless cash rich. Also generally I find any non techy struggles with anything beyond connecting one box to another with cables and/or automatically connects wirelessly then switch it on and it works, anything more complex is quickly ignored/dropped. So a fear of the unknown develops I believe, and fear of being ripped off.
Pete The Cat
10-11-2018, 07:27
My limited dabblings with non-physical media suggest you can get very good sound performance on a budget. For exploring new music I run a stripped down laptop (literally everything removed, decommissioned or switched off bar what's necessary to play FLAC files or Spotify) via an Audioquest Dragonfly Black and it's streets ahead of my first turntable or CD player back in the day. But without the engagement that I get from record or CD the experience is hollow and I find I can't just sit and listen to it as I do with those, so it ends up in the background while I do jobs. When I get too old or problematic for the family I suspect I'll go digital, but hopefully not for a while...
Can't help think HR / HD is another example of the industry re-selling things we've now bought several times already, only to be surpassed by something else in a few years' time no doubt. You've got to hand it to them, it's how they seem to get away with dissing a format or version that a few years previously they were selling as "perfect sound forever". Same with this trend towards remixing classic albums...
Pete
My limited dabblings with non-physical media suggest you can get very good sound performance on a budget. For exploring new music I run a stripped down laptop (literally everything removed, decommissioned or switched off bar what's necessary to play FLAC files or Spotify) via an Audioquest Dragonfly Black and it's streets ahead of my first turntable or CD player back in the day. But without the engagement that I get from record or CD the experience is hollow and I find I can't just sit and listen to it as I do with those, so it ends up in the background while I do jobs. When I get too old or problematic for the family I suspect I'll go digital, but hopefully not for a while...
Can't help think HR / HD is another example of the industry re-selling things we've now bought several times already, only to be surpassed by something else in a few years' time no doubt. You've got to hand it to them, it's how they seem to get away with dissing a format or version that a few years previously they were selling as "perfect sound forever". Same with this trend towards remixing classic albums...
Pete
Agree with all that Pete, especially the HD and remastering bit. I'm content with redbook now after buggering about for awhile with HD, it's the mastering of the original recording that makes the real difference to sound quality.
With your file playback and that stripped back laptop, have you ever tried Fidelizer? It's pretty good and saves a lot of buggering about for those not inclined that way. It really is impressive for free software and simple to use, especially as a reboot puts everything back to how it was. I used to tinker the hell out of my music servers, but Fidelizer gets me there without any gnashing of teeth.
http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/
Pete The Cat
10-11-2018, 07:52
Agree with all that Pete, especially the HD and remastering bit. I'm content with redbook now after buggering about for awhile with HD, it's the mastering of the original recording that makes the real difference to sound quality.
With your file playback and that stripped back laptop, have you ever tried Fidelizer? It's pretty good and saves a lot of buggering about for those not inclined that way. It really is impressive for free software and simple to use, especially as a reboot puts everything back to how it was. I used to tinker the hell out of my music servers, but Fidelizer gets me there without any gnashing of teeth.
http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/
I have wasapi (?) on Foobar and no realgain (?). That's the extent of my knowledge.
Fidelizer...mmm, something new to play with :)
Cheers :cool:
Pete
sq225917
10-11-2018, 09:18
I've not heard vinyl, cd or streaming ever get the upper hand on one another, done well they all sound good. The mastering is the thing, not the format.
Sherwood
10-11-2018, 10:56
I've not heard vinyl, cd or streaming ever get the upper hand on one another, done well they all sound good. The mastering is the thing, not the format.
I agree that each format can sound fantastic though I would argue strongly that is is now less costly to build a high quality streaming system than for the other two formats. Top flight vinyl playback has always required top quality engineering and that is costly. A good turntable requires high tolerance machining and often expensive materials. Top flight arms and cartridges are also expensive to produce. A good CD player typically employs expensive mechanical engineering to reduce vibration and to allow the optical and electronic components to perform optically. In contrast, a good streamer can be produced "relatively" cheaply although it is still important that they be provided with good clean power supplies.
If I were starting my Hifi "journey" today, streaming would be a no brainer for me.
Geoff
montesquieu
10-11-2018, 11:29
I agree that each format can sound fantastic though I would argue strongly that is is now less costly to build a high quality streaming system than for the other two formats. Top flight vinyl playback has always required top quality engineering and that is costly. A good turntable requires high tolerance machining and often expensive materials. Top flight arms and cartridges are also expensive to produce. A good CD player typically employs expensive mechanical engineering to reduce vibration and to allow the optical and electronic components to perform optically. In contrast, a good streamer can be produced "relatively" cheaply although it is still important that they be provided with good clean power supplies.
If I were starting my Hifi "journey" today, streaming would be a no brainer for me.
Geoff
In strict hifi terms I'd agree with you there Geoff, I shudder to think what my vinyl setup has cost me all added up and my LP collection is the result of 40 years of near-continuous spending (with a break in the very late 90s and early 00s when the kids were small and I put the old Linn fruitbox I had at the time away for a few years).
Why do all that when a good streaming system can give you probably 90% of the sound for a small fraction of the cost? Certainly a huge number of the LPs I bought when I was a music student were acquired not (at least at the time) for pleasure but for study purposes and streaming had it been available back then would have saved me a packet. (It took me years to let go of some of the stuff - serial chamber music, Shostakovich symphones, grand opera and the like - that I would never want to listen to again).
I think there is a gap though in human psychology, though, that suggests that while streaming may be the 'future' it's not the only future.
Quite a few of the youngsters I speak to these days - including my son, who is 20 - tell me their main music consumption is via streaming (indeed it gives them an enormous window onto music across many decades that we never had), but they also want a physical connection to the stuff they really feel close to, for example the bands they've made the (often very expensive these days) effort to go and see.
My son has a small collection of records, often signed, sometimes bought from fan sites or gigs. Latterly he's been looking at where these modern performers he listens too took inspiration from - and he is off picking up Zappa albums, George Duke, Stanley Clarke and the like. He plays these on a technics SL150 similar to what I had at his age. He recently graduated from just headphones to a chip amp + Tannoy 603s.
And he is really not alone - hanging out with him or his friends, or even my daughter and her friends, I've found quite a few of them aspire to vinyl ownership in the context of a decent sound system (at least the ones into music - as in many generations, a lot of kids have a superficial awareness of contemporary pop, but little interest in music more generally - for them their phones are perfectly adequate).
The urge to 'own' a piece of something in order to feel connected is quite strong and while it won't be for everybody I do think that physical media will continue to be made and sold and enjoyed for a very long time and it goes far beyond the question of sound quality.
Sherwood
10-11-2018, 12:38
In strict hifi terms I'd agree with you there Geoff, I shudder to think what my vinyl setup has cost me all added up and my LP collection is the result of 40 years of near-continuous spending (with a break in the very late 90s and early 00s when the kids were small and I put the old Linn fruitbox I had at the time away for a few years).
Why do all that when a good streaming system can give you probably 90% of the sound for a small fraction of the cost? Certainly a huge number of the LPs I bought when I was a music student were acquired not (at least at the time) for pleasure but for study purposes and streaming had it been available back then would have saved me a packet. (It took me years to let go of some of the stuff - serial chamber music, Shostakovich symphones, grand opera and the like - that I would never want to listen to again).
I think there is a gap though in human psychology, though, that suggests that while streaming may be the 'future' it's not the only future.
Quite a few of the youngsters I speak to these days - including my son, who is 20 - tell me their main music consumption is via streaming (indeed it gives them an enormous window onto music across many decades that we never had), but they also want a physical connection to the stuff they really feel close to, for example the bands they've made the (often very expensive these days) effort to go and see.
My son has a small collection of records, often signed, sometimes bought from fan sites or gigs. Latterly he's been looking at where these modern performers he listens too took inspiration from - and he is off picking up Zappa albums, George Duke, Stanley Clarke and the like. He plays these on a technics SL150 similar to what I had at his age. He recently graduated from just headphones to a chip amp + Tannoy 603s.
And he is really not alone - hanging out with him or his friends, or even my daughter and her friends, I've found quite a few of them aspire to vinyl ownership in the context of a decent sound system (at least the ones into music - as in many generations, a lot of kids have a superficial awareness of contemporary pop, but little interest in music more generally - for them their phones are perfectly adequate).
The urge to 'own' a piece of something in order to feel connected is quite strong and while it won't be for everybody I do think that physical media will continue to be made and sold and enjoyed for a very long time and it goes far beyond the question of sound quality.
Although I have gravitated towards streaming I still have a huge collection of software including about 1,000 vinyl albums that went into storage in 1998 when I went to work overseas and which (with a few exceptions for some titles that I have been digitising) have not been played since. I have sold a few albums since returning to the UK, but to be honest for the prices I've got and the hassle from a few purchasers I just can't be bothered selling any more. Fortunately, I have enough space in my current house to store them. I also have many thousands of CDs (I stopped counting when I got to 3,000). These have all been ripped to FLAC and are in storage crates because I feel strongly that my ripping is legitimate because I own a paid for copy.
It does not require advanced mathematics to work out how much I have spent on "software" over the years. I don't regret it, and have always been puzzled by those with mega expensive systems and a handful of titles to play. However, I would not make the same choices again. I am bewildered by those buying turntables today who do not already have a substantial vinyl investment. This is not a criticism of vinyl, only of the economics of vinyl! The same applies to CD although to a lesser extent. Yes, CD prices have fallen hugely in real terms since the mid 80s, and very cheap used CDs can be bought if one has the time to search them out In fact, on my frequent trips to the USA, I make a point of visiting used CD warehouses where the choice, condition and price of discs are great, and where I can stock up on music for the road. CD is still alive but I suspect that it will be a much smaller industry by the time the format reaches its 40th birthday.
As stated above, I have spent many times the amount on software than I have spent on hardware over the last 40 odd years. Starting out today I would not buy a single album or CD. Nor for that matter would I buy any (more) downloads. Instead, I would invest the vast majority of my budget on the best streaming system I could afford, keeping only enough for a subscription to Tidal or equivalent. For me, the most important thing is the SQ of the music I listen to and not ownership of the physical copy of that music. I understand that for others the tangible experience of holding a physical medium is important: for me it is not. I would also suggest, that for many younger people, unlikely to be able to purchase their own house until their 30's or later, that ownership of physical media is a non-starter. Few younger people today have the luxury of having the space to house racks of CDs or albums, or the disposable income to acquire them.
Like it or not, physical music media is in decline and in 20 years time, if not sooner, will be an enthusiast's hobby rather than a mainstream industry. I think back to the classic student systems of the 1970's so prominently featured in the Hifi magazines of the time. Compare that with a starter system of today comprising, say, Chromecast Audio, Tripath or D-Class amp and a good pair of headphones or budget speakers. Together with a Tidal subscription, which in today's money is less than what an album would have cost back then, the music enthusiast of today has access to virtually unlimited HQ music. The irony is that recorded music is much less important today, because there are so many alternative leisure activities competing for our leisure time, not least the dreaded computer gaming. I have barely played a computer game since Uni, where I spent far too much of my time and money in the bar on beer and asteroids
Geoff!
montesquieu
10-11-2018, 12:41
Yes who can forget getting two pints and a doubles game of Asteroids at the student union for £1! :D
Sherwood
10-11-2018, 12:55
In strict hifi terms I'd agree with you there Geoff, I shudder to think what my vinyl setup has cost me all added up and my LP collection is the result of 40 years of near-continuous spending (with a break in the very late 90s and early 00s when the kids were small and I put the old Linn fruitbox I had at the time away for a few years).
Why do all that when a good streaming system can give you probably 90% of the sound for a small fraction of the cost? Certainly a huge number of the LPs I bought when I was a music student were acquired not (at least at the time) for pleasure but for study purposes and streaming had it been available back then would have saved me a packet. (It took me years to let go of some of the stuff - serial chamber music, Shostakovich symphones, grand opera and the like - that I would never want to listen to again).
I think there is a gap though in human psychology, though, that suggests that while streaming may be the 'future' it's not the only future.
Quite a few of the youngsters I speak to these days - including my son, who is 20 - tell me their main music consumption is via streaming (indeed it gives them an enormous window onto music across many decades that we never had), but they also want a physical connection to the stuff they really feel close to, for example the bands they've made the (often very expensive these days) effort to go and see.
My son has a small collection of records, often signed, sometimes bought from fan sites or gigs. Latterly he's been looking at where these modern performers he listens too took inspiration from - and he is off picking up Zappa albums, George Duke, Stanley Clarke and the like. He plays these on a technics SL150 similar to what I had at his age. He recently graduated from just headphones to a chip amp + Tannoy 603s.
And he is really not alone - hanging out with him or his friends, or even my daughter and her friends, I've found quite a few of them aspire to vinyl ownership in the context of a decent sound system (at least the ones into music - as in many generations, a lot of kids have a superficial awareness of contemporary pop, but little interest in music more generally - for them their phones are perfectly adequate).
The urge to 'own' a piece of something in order to feel connected is quite strong and while it won't be for everybody I do think that physical media will continue to be made and sold and enjoyed for a very long time and it goes far beyond the question of sound quality.
BTW: Chip amps seem to have fallen out of favour in recent years but can deliver amazing performance. I still own an Audiosector Patek v2 power amp. Apart from impeccable construction and high aesthetic values, it can deliver the type of sound that many equate with SE valve amps, albeit with more muscle and control. It is barely used now since I bought my Maggies. I was very sad to learn of the recent death of Peter Daniels (Audiosector founder). He built my Patek to a tight deadline and invited me over to his house to pick it up and, as it turned out, to listen to many albums from his extensive music collection.
most of the chip amps ive heard have been good.
Although I have gravitated towards streaming I still have a huge collection of software including about 1,000 vinyl albums that went into storage in 1998 when I went to work overseas and which (with a few exceptions for some titles that I have been digitising) have not been played since. I have sold a few albums since returning to the UK, but to be honest for the prices I've got and the hassle from a few purchasers I just can't be bothered selling any more. Fortunately, I have enough space in my current house to store them. I also have many thousands of CDs (I stopped counting when I got to 3,000). These have all been ripped to FLAC and are in storage crates because I feel strongly that my ripping is legitimate because I own a paid for copy.
It does not require advanced mathematics to work out how much I have spent on "software" over the years. I don't regret it, and have always been puzzled by those with mega expensive systems and a handful of titles to play. However, I would not make the same choices again. I am bewildered by those buying turntables today who do not already have a substantial vinyl investment. This is not a criticism of vinyl, only of the economics of vinyl! The same applies to CD although to a lesser extent. Yes, CD prices have fallen hugely in real terms since the mid 80s, and very cheap used CDs can be bought if one has the time to search them out In fact, on my frequent trips to the USA, I make a point of visiting used CD warehouses where the choice, condition and price of discs are great, and where I can stock up on music for the road. CD is still alive but I suspect that it will be a much smaller industry by the time the format reaches its 40th birthday.
As stated above, I have spent many times the amount on software than I have spent on hardware over the last 40 odd years. Starting out today I would not buy a single album or CD. Nor for that matter would I buy any (more) downloads. Instead, I would invest the vast majority of my budget on the best streaming system I could afford, keeping only enough for a subscription to Tidal or equivalent. For me, the most important thing is the SQ of the music I listen to and not ownership of the physical copy of that music. I understand that for others the tangible experience of holding a physical medium is important: for me it is not. I would also suggest, that for many younger people, unlikely to be able to purchase their own house until their 30's or later, that ownership of physical media is a non-starter. Few younger people today have the luxury of having the space to house racks of CDs or albums, or the disposable income to acquire them.
Like it or not, physical music media is in decline and in 20 years time, if not sooner, will be an enthusiast's hobby rather than a mainstream industry. I think back to the classic student systems of the 1970's so prominently featured in the Hifi magazines of the time. Compare that with a starter system of today comprising, say, Chromecast Audio, Tripath or D-Class amp and a good pair of headphones or budget speakers. Together with a Tidal subscription, which in today's money is less than what an album would have cost back then, the music enthusiast of today has access to virtually unlimited HQ music. The irony is that recorded music is much less important today, because there are so many alternative leisure activities competing for our leisure time, not least the dreaded computer gaming. I have barely played a computer game since Uni, where I spent far too much of my time and money in the bar on beer and asteroids
Geoff!
Putting complete faith in the providers is all well and good for as long as these companies last, though I suppose switching between/moving on from them probably won't be too much of a hassle...
I don't get this bit about 'young people' not having the space for CDs or LPs. They're living in the same housing stock as we did and really how much space does a few hundred CDs or records take up? A couple of shelves of a bookcase.
At one point I was living in a box room about 9 foot by 6 and there was enough room for some large speakers, TT, tape deck and amp and about 100 records and 100 cassettes.
How small are these 'young people's' gaffs? Are they living in those pods like in Japan?
I think it's more about this awful modern compulsion to have empty rooms with just a couch and a TV on the wall. It's a psychological affliction if you ask me.
As regards money I never had any money until I was 30 but I'd still managed to build up a decent record collection by then, just buy one a week or one a fortnight. So that's no argument. In fact I valued them more and got my money's worth out of them because less choice means playing the same thing more and getting familiar with it and appreciating it more because of that. Being able to have everything all at once for twenty quid a month lessens the whole experience.
None of the streaming services make a profit so you have to wonder if they will stick around long term. Or if they will have to start jacking the price up.
So all on balance if I was advising a youth of today I would say start building up a CD collection. They are cheap, they are master quality, the players are cheap and abundant, you can always copy them to a hard drive or a telephone and you'll always have a hard copy to go back to in the event of failure. Plus you know the providence of the master and unlike using a streaming service you know that the recording hasn't been cocked about by them adding their own EQ or a bit of reverb to spice it up. And you get the long term pleasure of building a proper collection up.
For £20 a month you can buy 4 cds, in five years you'd have 240 albums which is more than enough to rotate your listening without getting bored. I always wonder about the people my age who have 6000 albums but say they only have 5 or 6 hours a week to do any listening. I mean life is finite! You're never going to get through them all even playing each one once!
I don't get this bit about 'young people' not having the space for CDs or LPs. They're living in the same housing stock as we did and really how much space does a few hundred CDs or records take up? A couple of shelves of a bookcase.
At one point I was living in a box room about 9 foot by 6 and there was enough room for some large speakers, TT, tape deck and amp and about 100 records and 100 cassettes.
How small are these 'young people's' gaffs? Are they living in those pods like in Japan?
I think it's more about this awful modern compulsion to have empty rooms with just a couch and a TV on the wall. It's a psychological affliction if you ask me.
As regards money I never had any money until I was 30 but I'd still managed to build up a decent record collection by then, just buy one a week or one a fortnight. So that's no argument. In fact I valued them more and got my money's worth out of them because less choice means playing the same thing more and getting familiar with it and appreciating it more because of that. Being able to have everything all at once for twenty quid a month lessens the whole experience.
None of the streaming services make a profit so you have to wonder if they will stick around long term. Or if they will have to start jacking the price up.
So all on balance if I was advising a youth of today I would say start building up a CD collection. They are cheap, they are master quality, the players are cheap and abundant, you can always copy them to a hard drive or a telephone and you'll always have a hard copy to go back to in the event of failure. Plus you know the providence of the master and unlike using a streaming service you know that the recording hasn't been cocked about by them adding their own EQ or a bit of reverb to spice it up. And you get the long term pleasure of building a proper collection up.
For £20 a month you can buy 4 cds, in five years you'd have 240 albums which is more than enough to rotate your listening without getting bored. I always wonder about the people my age who have 6000 albums but say they only have 5 or 6 hours a week to do any listening. I mean life is finite! You're never going to get through them all even playing each one once!
My point, exactly...
Stratmangler
10-11-2018, 15:43
I don't get this bit about 'young people' not having the space for CDs or LPs
They don't have them because most of them don't have the concentration span to listen to a full one.
Space isn't the issue, it's lack of attention span that's the issue.
There are a few exceptions (my lad being one) who listen to complete albums.
In my son's case that's because he has boring old fart me for a father, and he developed the habit because of my influence.
An 18 year old that likes great album tracks, not just the earworm hits that draw you to the album in the first place.
Different mindset Martin, don't totally understand it myself, but then I'm not 20, so never likely too. I guess if I was I'd probably do the same thing. I do like a tidy room though ;)
I think Chris has a point about attention span though, I still play entire albums from start to finish, playlists do my head in. But I guess if you need to be checking your social media accounts every 5 minutes, listening to an entire album could be quite inconvenient.
As for playing music, well my Last.fm tally for this year is currently 22,500 songs played, so I reckon that's a tad more than 5/6 hours a week - that's not normal I know, but I'm not normal, or so my friends keep telling me!
Sent from my XT1580 using Tapatalk
Sherwood
10-11-2018, 15:47
I don't get this bit about 'young people' not having the space for CDs or LPs. They're living in the same housing stock as we did and really how much space does a few hundred CDs or records take up? A couple of shelves of a bookcase.
At one point I was living in a box room about 9 foot by 6 and there was enough room for some large speakers, TT, tape deck and amp and about 100 records and 100 cassettes.
How small are these 'young people's' gaffs? Are they living in those pods like in Japan?
I think it's more about this awful modern compulsion to have empty rooms with just a couch and a TV on the wall. It's a psychological affliction if you ask me.
As regards money I never had any money until I was 30 but I'd still managed to build up a decent record collection by then, just buy one a week or one a fortnight. So that's no argument. In fact I valued them more and got my money's worth out of them because less choice means playing the same thing more and getting familiar with it and appreciating it more because of that. Being able to have everything all at once for twenty quid a month lessens the whole experience.
None of the streaming services make a profit so you have to wonder if they will stick around long term. Or if they will have to start jacking the price up.
So all on balance if I was advising a youth of today I would say start building up a CD collection. They are cheap, they are master quality, they players are cheap and abundant, you can always copy them to a hard drive or a telephone and you'll always have a hard copy to go back to in the event of failure. Plus you know the providence of the master and unlike using a streaming service you know that the recording hasn't been cocked about by them adding their own EQ or a bit of reverb to spice it up. And you get the long term pleasure of building a proper collection up.
For £20 a month you can buy 4 cds, in five years you'd have 240 albums which is more than enough to rotate your listening without getting bored. I always wonder about the people my age who have 6000 albums but say they only have 5 or 6 hours a week to do any listening. I mean life is finite! You're never going to get through them all even playing each one once!
Recalling my experience in the 70s I was able to buy a very good Hifi whilst at Uni because a) I had a full grant and (obviously) no fees; and, b) living in London I was able to find well paid work very easily. In fact, I had a Saturday job from the age of 14 in a butcher shop working 6.30am to 6pm which allowed me to save for things I wanted. At Uni, I moved into a one bedroom flat with my then girlfriend which was one floor of a Victorian terraced house with a big high ceilinged lounge. Having space for records storage was not an issue but of course I did not have that many records back then.
What I think is different today is that many young people are still living at home in order to try and get the deposit together for a mortgage. Most of the young people I know are in shared houses, often in smallish rooms, with little security for valuable items. I disagree that they are living in the same housing stock. The so-called "rate of new household formation" (I used to teach housing economics whist doing post grad studies) has outpaced the growth of housing and many properties that would previously have been for sole occupancy have been converted into houses of multiple occupancy or cost so much that sharing is necessary. Clearly, there has also been a huge reduction in the availability of affordable social housing. Space is an issue, but less of an issue than just not having any money to spend after living costs and deposit saving.
However, I think that these factors are less important in making it less common for students and young people to own traditional hifi systems and media than the fact that recorded music competes with so many other entertainment forms. I am guessing that there are relatively few younger people who would prioritise a good hifi over a big screen TV and a subscription to Netflix, or an Xbox and a pile of computer games.
I may be an outlier on this forum in not feeling any particular gratification from the ownership of physical media. I agree that there are many albums in my collection that I will not play very often again, if ever. However, when I bought them, it was on the basis of one or two tracks i had heard and liked, only to find the rest of the album was crap. Nowadays, I always listen to a title before buying, and in consequence buy very few new titles. In contrast, I listen to a lot of new music including the latest White Album (which I will not be buying BTW).
Geoff
However, I think that these factors are less important in making it less common for students and young people to own traditional hifi systems and media than the fact that recorded music competes with so many other entertainment forms. I am guessing that there are relatively few younger people who would prioritise a good hifi over a big screen TV and a subscription to Netflix, or an Xbox and a pile of computer games.
Geoff
Computer games and consoles were around when I was young but TVs were too expensive to buy so most rented one but we all still bought records. I don't see that as a factor and judging by the number of youngsters I see wandering the streets with headphones on (often proper headphones not earbuds) they mostly still like music and listen to it.
Personally, and I may be wrong, I think they don't have proper hi-fi systems because
a) They have never heard one so don't realise the benefit and
b) They think it will be a lot more expensive than it actually is.
You can put together a good system for £200 second hand and a high end system for £2K second hand. But people just don't realise that.
That's why AoS is around to educate folks! And more hi-fi enthusiasts read forums now than magazines;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
10-11-2018, 16:32
hi-fi enthusiasts
I hope you're not calling me one :eyebrows:
Sherwood
10-11-2018, 16:38
Computer games and consoles were around when I was young but TVs were too expensive to buy so most rented one but we all still bought records. I don't see that as a factor and judging by the number of youngsters I see wandering the streets with headphones on (often proper headphones not earbuds) they mostly still like music and listen to it.
Personally, and I may be wrong, I think they don't have proper hi-fi systems because
a) They have never heard one so don't realise the benefit and
b) They think it will be a lot more expensive than it actually is.
You can put together a good system for £200 second hand and a high end system for £2K second hand. But people just don't realise that.
The computer game around when I was young was the tv tennis game "Pong". It was crap and despite its novelty value I lost interest after a couple of hours. I did have a Spectrum Z80 and later a Spectrum and had a few games for this but was more interested in writing my own programmes and playing chess.
I am sure that you are right about there being very little awareness of Hif price and performance but that begs the question of why this is so? Manufacturers could easily market new technology to the younger market but I do not see evidence of this. Perhaps their market research suggests that there is no latent demand for traditional hifi amongst this demographic? Of course, latent demand is as much about ability to pay as willingness to pay. I wonder what ability there is to pay after the "essentials" of mobile phone, fashion and entertainment are addressed. As to second hand, I don't think that the notion appeals to the latest generation. There may be some areas where second hand is in vogue (e.g. vintage clothing and vinyl) but I think this is more to do with fashion rather than performance. Indeed, when you look at the voracious appetite for this year's iPhone, even the latest and very expensive tech has a limited shelf life.
I would say that you can put together a good new streaming system for much less than 200 quid but I don't see a major uptake here either!
What to know of youth though except that it is wasted on the young! :scratch:
AJSki2fly
12-11-2018, 16:28
Different mindset Martin, don't totally understand it myself, but then I'm not 20, so never likely too. I guess if I was I'd probably do the same thing. I do like a tidy room though ;)
I think Chris has a point about attention span though, I still play entire albums from start to finish, playlists do my head in. But I guess if you need to be checking your social media accounts every 5 minutes, listening to an entire album could be quite inconvenient.
As for playing music, well my Last.fm tally for this year is currently 22,500 songs played, so I reckon that's a tad more than 5/6 hours a week - that's not normal I know, but I'm not normal, or so my friends keep telling me!
Sent from my XT1580 using Tapatalk
It seems we are quite similar. In 2 years I have listened to over 900 vinyls, and I would guess at least 100 CD's, and about 40 streamed albums. So that's about 10 albums a week which sounds about right, bearing in mind I am not here at least 3 days a week. Recently its been more as been home due to illness. Like you I can't stand not playing a whole album once on. Then only other thing I do is select a random playlist which is more now with TIDAL, and if I here a track I really like then I will add the album it from to my music to listen to.
My listening habits have never changed at all, I may have gone almost exclusively digital (my 1210 project is still not finished!), but I listen to music like it was an LP - only difference is I don't have to get up half way through :)
Pieoftheday
12-11-2018, 19:19
My point, exactly...
Def agree, but my other half dosnt,she dosnt want them cluttering up the living room! No need to put a counter argument, been there etc, :cool:
CD players rely on error correction to solve reading speed variations, scratched discs, vibrations, etc. But error correction doesn't always accurately replace the missing bits. What it does is to replace the missing bits with other bits that will produce a continuity in the signal waveform. In doing so, the correction bits could contain far less audio data than is actually supposed to be present in the missing data. The correction bits are skewed towards reproducing midrange and lower frequencies, which means that higher frequencies are the ones that lose out in playback or accuracy.
A similar situation occurs when a digital circuit is powered by a less than suitable power supply (noise etc). Data error correction then kicks in to make sure a proper audio playback is produced. But those correction bits could easily affect the higher frequencies in a similar fashion. So when you plumb in a better power supply, you could suddenly hear detail and instruments in the higher frequency range that you could not hear before. Just ask the Dorado owners...
Surprised to see you propagating that myth Stan. It really is not how it works at all.
I agree better power supplies make an improvement but it has nothing to do with error correction.
It’s not a myth. It’s how CIRC works. If CIRC cannot correct the error the player uses interpolation to make up the missing data based on the leading and trailing samples around the error and if the error is large enough the player can mute the audio output.
Haselsh1
23-11-2018, 09:33
Two years back I decided to junk all of my CD plastic cases and put them into small white paper envelopes along with their associated booklet. The saving in space terms was phenomenal so that they all now live in one chest of drawers in a corner of the room. Whereas they used to take up the entire cabinet they now occupy two drawers. Stored in alphabetical order and by date of release the whole thing is so easy to use. No storage problem in this house.
;)
mightymonoped
23-11-2018, 10:18
Two years back I decided to junk all of my CD plastic cases and put them into small white paper envelopes along with their associated booklet. The saving in space terms was phenomenal so that they all now live in one chest of drawers in a corner of the room. Whereas they used to take up the entire cabinet they now occupy two drawers. Stored in alphabetical order and by date of release the whole thing is so easy to use. No storage problem in this house.
;)
+1 That's what I did many moons ago (several house moves ago in fact), the booklet has everything you need usually and the storage space required is minimal.
It’s not a myth. It’s how CIRC works. If CIRC cannot correct the error the player uses interpolation to make up the missing data based on the leading and trailing samples around the error and if the error is large enough the player can mute the audio output.
yes I know how CIRC works, it's the idea that it will sound audibly different that I was contesting.
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