Signs of a worn MC

[RobbieGong]

Having never experienced this, How does the sound change ?

How does it sound when the stylus is done ?

[GrahamS]

Having never experienced this, How does the sound change ?

How does it sound when it's done ?

Do you mean a worn stylus on a moving coil pickup cartridge?

[Jimbo]

Hi Rob,

If you had a new cartridge to compare your old one against you will hear the differences clearly. From my experience I have found that a worn stylus looses top end information and smears the detail so you get less precise and defined images and acoustic information. As the cartridge becomes more worn distortion becomes very evident and by then you maybe damaging your vinyl!:eek:

[RobbieGong]

Do you mean a worn stylus on a moving coil pickup cartridge?

Yep, of course...

[RobbieGong]

Hi Rob,

If you had a new cartridge to compare your old one against you will hear the differences clearly. From my experience I have found that a worn stylus looses top end information and smears the detail so you get less precise and defined images and acoustic information. As the cartridge becomes more worn distortion becomes very evident and by then you maybe damaging your vinyl!:eek:

Thanks Jimbo,

Been trying to set up my Cadenza B and as well as not being able nail that vta sweet spot, one thing that is very apparent to me is that it doesnt sound right compared to other times during set up.

Sounds pretty much as you've described and is probably partly why I'm struggling to get it to sound right.

Add to your description shrunken sound stage, less dynamic and overall smaller pinched sound and thats what I'm getting.

Have checked everything else by the way, and all else is fine and as it should be / has always been.

[Mike Reed]

As I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to cartridge alignment than VTA. If you're certain of correct overhang, azimuth, VTF and bias (and VTA) and your arm, there's nowt else but the cart. You could look at the stylus/cantilever with a loupe or similar, if only to check the cleanliness of both, but if you've no idea of previous mileage as a last factor, it may be time for a change or re-tip.

[RobbieGong]

As I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to cartridge alignment than VTA. If you're certain of correct overhang, azimuth, VTF and bias (and VTA) and your arm, there's nowt else but the cart. You could look at the stylus/cantilever with a loupe or similar, if only to check the cleanliness of both, but if you've no idea of previous mileage as a last factor, it may be time for a change or re-tip.

Thanks Mike,

All set-up parameters are bang on - I'm anal and take set-up / alignment etc very very serious as in my experince it's imporatnce cannot be overstated, if your serious about hifi, proper evaluation and hearing your system / music at it's best.

I've gone over and over again but this time the sound doesnt go beyond as I've described, no nailing the sweetspot / point of rightness.

Your last comment is very valid too as I've no 'gospel' idea of previous mileage and got it at a very very good price.

Not drawn to the idea of re-tips so will be a replacement cart somehow and new this time :)

[graham67]

A good way is to run it over the tracking tests on the HFN test record. A worn cart will not track as well as when it was in fine fettle. This happened on my OC-9. it used to sail thru the first, second, third tests, it could even make a devent fist of the 4th torture track. However when it became worn, it struggled on the second, third tracks.

[Jimbo]

Another issue that may occur with a stylus Rob is the possibility it has got a lump of crud stuck to it or it may have chipped slightly. Only really possible to check under microscope. Also you may have a cantilever suspension issue, possible internal damage. However if you have got distortion it sounds like it is either worn or has dirt on the stylus tip?

How many hours do you have on the Cadenza!

[YNWaN]

In my experience the sound gradually loses top end sparkle and increasingly sounds dull and lacking in life.

[RobbieGong]

Another issue that may occur with a stylus Rob is the possibility it has got a lump of crud stuck to it or it may have chipped slightly. Only really possible to check under microscope. Also you may have a cantilever suspension issue, possible internal damage. However if you have got distortion it sounds like it is either worn or has dirt on the stylus tip?

How many hours do you have on the Cadenza!

Hours impossible to verify Jimbo as I didnt buy new. Got it at a very very good price and was told it had had little use. Saw no reason to dispute that as seller had 100% positive feedback and communication was good.

That said, who knows :rolleyes:

Symptoms pretty much like you have said and Mark too, loss of top end sparkle, dull and lacking in life about sums it up.

Not to worry I say, no ones died ;)

[hermit]

Not drawn to the idea of re-tips so will be a replacement cart somehow and new this time :)

Ortofon will do a total rebuild for around 900 euros I think.

[RobbieGong]

Ortofon will do a total rebuild for around 900 euros I think.

Good shout Paul, hadnt thought of that.

Taken below, from their website looks spot on, particularly the bit i've bolded. If it will in effect be as a new cartridge then it has to be the viable option.

2. Cartridge repair process

2.1. Upon receipt we open the defective cartridge, detach the motor unit from the body, scrap off all glue etc.
2.2. A new motor will be installed. A new diamond and cantilever will be mounted. Repaired cartridge is in fact a new product with a new motor.
2.3. Finally the cartridge will be cleaned and tested.
2.4. The test results will be provided along the repaired cartridge.

[hermit]

I can't swear that the 900 euros is still current but it will be in that ballpark. Regardless, I'm sure a factory rebuild is a cost effective solution that provides the peace of mind that comes with a brand new cartridge, body aside.

[RobbieGong]

I can't swear that the 900 euros is still current but it will be in that ballpark. Regardless, I'm sure a factory rebuild is a cost effective solution that provides the peace of mind that comes with a brand new cartridge, body aside.

Site shows €1,140.00 (about £995) - not bad but I might just buy a new one outright, not sure. Been dreaming, saving and selling bits towards an A95 but to be honest that's a lonnngg one :rolleyes:

So, having heard the CB in my set up optimised, sweetspot nailed and on song is the best I've ever heard - period, just fab so I'm gonna stay in the Black :D (and literally!) Cant justify, not to mention just havnt got A95 money and dont feel I need to go there anyway ;)

[Jimbo]

When you have a cartridge that works for you in your system and your very happy with it, why go anywhere else. I did and regretted it so came back full circle to the 2M which, in my system, sounds stunning.

I am sure staying with the CB will not be a bad place to be Rob.:)

[RobbieGong]

When you have a cartridge that works for you in your system and your very happy with it, why go anywhere else. I did and regretted it so came back full circle to the 2M which, in my system, sounds stunning.

I am sure staying with the CB will not be a bad place to be Rob.:)

Spot on Jimbo, It's about enjoying the music at the end of the day. Comes a point where the messing, changing, obsessing over that 'something else' has to stop otherwise you're chasing your tail, missing the point and wasting your time ;)

[martian sunrise]

But there are so many to try!

[Jimbo]

There are so many to try BUT it becomes awfully expensive and in many cases you are chasing something different rather than better. Ultimately there comes a point where you find one that suits your system set up and suits your ears and I think at this point you must decide to draw a line and sit back and just enjoy the music.

Not saying it isn't fun or interesting to try other cartridges if you have the cash but for me I would rather relax and listen to music rather than worry about there being something better around the corner. It is a bit like cars, try a few that your interested in and then you know which one you want long term to live with....girlfriends can be a bit like that too!:)

[RobbieGong]

But there are so many to try!

If you've got the time and the money go for it ;)

[RobbieGong]

There are so many to try BUT it becomes awfully expensive and in many cases you are chasing something different rather than better. Ultimately there comes a point where you find one that suits your system set up and suits your ears and I think at this point you must decide to draw a line and sit back and just enjoy the music.

Not saying it isn't fun or interesting to try other cartridges if you have the cash but for me I would rather relax and listen to music rather than worry about there being something better around the corner. It is a bit like cars, try a few that your interested in and then you know which one you want long term to live with....girlfriends can be a bit like that too!:)

Exactly :)

Upgrading is part of the journey indeed and part of the fun but to an extent in my experience.

At some point you get to know when something hits the spot and what you like, ie: you love what it does, it brings great pleasure, you can easily live with it enjoying hours of music without fatigue.

Thats when it's maybe time to stop messing, spending daft sums chasing that 'bigger thing' (that comes with no guarantees of actually being better than what you've got) and just enjoy the music ;).

[Barry]

Wise words Robbie,

One should always know when to stop - but some of us still like to 'tinker and dabble'.

Barry (a 'cartridge tart')

[RobbieGong]

Wise words Robbie,

One should always know when to stop - but some of us still like to 'tinker and dabble'.

Barry (a 'cartridge tart')

:) no harm in a little tinkering, I know what you mean.

I think even the non-tinker / dabblers would be very tempted to scratch an itch if funds were suddenly not so much an issue, me included ;)

[Clive197]

Hi Robert, agree with you about non standard retip. Don’t agree with going out and buying a new cartridge. Sending back to Ortofon for half the price of a new one is both cost effective and a no brainier.

[RobbieGong]

Didnt think I'd go down the retip road but after good consideration and weighting things up, the CB is off to Kilian Bakker of Holistic Audio, who used to work for Ortofon and has a greart reputation with this work.

The learned Angus-Phonomac is not one for using or recommending any old thing or anyone without good reason and without genuine expectation of the best result.

Angus had him fit a Fritz Gyger FGS stylus to his Ortofon Vienna and has been extremely pleased with it, quote 'I don’t see me ever using a different stylus profile after my experience with that'

The Fritz Gyger S stylus is the same as Ortofons best profile the Nude Replicant 100, as used on its higher end carts, PW Windfeld, Xpression, A90, A95, Anna and MC Century.

He'll also give the cart a good general overhaul including checking and cleaning the generator of fine dust and any metal particles plus a realignment of the coils for optimal channel balance and phase.

Oh! and for less than half the £1K Ortofon charge for a standard retip / rebuild to normal/current CB spec.

Kilian is effectively providing an upgraded cart.

Cant wait to have it back. Expecting it to sound different, which it will / should as it wont be a Shibata clad Cadenza Black anymore.

My guess is I'll hear something in between the PW and A90 / A95 but not quite as overtly bold, transparent and dynamic as the A95 which would suit me. A little more detailed and dynamic than the excellent Cadenza B would be spot on :D

Watch this space ....;)

[Jimbo]

Didnt think I'd go down the retip road but after good consideration and weighting things up, the CB is off to Kilian Bakker of Holistic Audio, who used to work for Ortofon and has a greart reputation with this work.

The learned Angus-Phonomac is not one for using or recommending any old thing or anyone without good reason and without genuine expectation of the best result.

Angus had him fit a Fritz Gyger FGS stylus to his Ortofon Vienna and has been extremely pleased with it, quote 'I don’t see me ever using a different stylus profile after my experience with that'

The Fritz Gyger S stylus is the same as Ortofons best profile the Nude Replicant 100, as used on its higher end carts, PW Windfeld, Xpression, A90, A95, Anna and MC Century.

He'll give the cart a good general overhaul including checking and cleaning the generator of fine dust and any metal particles plus a realignment of the coils for optimal channel balance and phase.

Oh! and for less than half the £1K for an Ortofon rebuild to the normal/current CB spec.

Kilian is effectively providing an upgraded cart.

Cant wait to have it back. Expecting it to sound different, which it will / should as it wont be a Shibata clad Cadenza Black anymore.

My guess is I'll hear something in between the PW and A90 / A95 but not quite as overtly bold, transparent and dynamic as the A95 which would suit me. A little more detailed and dynamic than the excellent Cadenza B would be spot on :D

Watch this space ....;)

Excellent decision Rob, I will keep an eye out for a nice write up on the results when it returns. Exciting stuff!

[RobbieGong]

The re-tipped Cadenza Black is back from Holland - yay !! :D

Package turned up by courier 7pm on Saturday evening.

Great speedy service and excellent comms from Killian Bakker - Hollistic Audio.

He advised that the tip was indeed worn (normal wear)

- Minimal contamination visible in the generator (mostly very fine metal dust, usually the result of micro-flaking of tool-plating).

- The damper seems fine, the tension-wire showed minimal deviation from the manufacturers specs so that needed readjustment.

- The bobine (coil cross) not optimally centered so needed re-alignment too.

All in all a very good catridge with normal wear and contamination. No signs of rust or other oxides.

Restoration with the discussed FG S tip plus the above mentioned realignment work.

I'm very excited but due to other commitments / matters etc set-up and listening wont commence until later in the week.

From what I've heard, read and been told the Fritz Gyger S is one of if not the best stylus profiles - right up there.

Sound should be detailed, dynamic, pure... -

Did I say I'm very excited :yay: more to follow.....

[Jimbo]

I am excited for you Rob. I can just imagine getting that cartridge back with a new FG tip it should be in a different league!

[RobbieGong]

I am excited for you Rob. I can just imagine getting that cartridge back with a new FG tip it should be in a different league!

Thanks Jimbo.

As you and I most certainly know, set up will be crucial.

With the Shibatas, experience showed me that tail down was where the sweetspot lived.

The FGS is effectively the Replicant stylus profile which I'm led to believe prefers nearer usual parallel arm set-up approach.

Will have to have my ears extremely finely tuned for this 'new one / sound' :)

[Pharos]

My position is that although I have not played vinyl for a long time, partly due to a worn stylus, I miss some of it, so I enquired about a re-tip of my Denon DL304, but felt a little sceptical.

A couple of weeks ago I located a new one in Germany for about £470 and am pleased because it went out of production some time ago.

My Linn is standard (Valhalla) with an RB300, if I consider upgrades what are the immediate ones to consider please?

[RobbieGong]

My position is that although I have not played vinyl for a long time, partly due to a worn stylus, I miss some of it, so I enquired about a re-tip of my Denon DL304, but felt a little sceptical.

A couple of weeks ago I located a new one in Germany for about £470 and am pleased because it went out of production some time ago.

My Linn is standard (Valhalla) with an RB300, if I consider upgrades what are the immediate ones to consider please?


Hi Dennis,

Glad you managed to source a new DL-304, a nice cart from what I've read about it over the years.

Regards upgrades for your Linn Valhalla. I'd start a separate thread in Analogue Art if I were you, maybe title something like 'Upgrades for Linn LP 12 Valhalla advise' :)

[walpurgis]

I wouldn't spend money retipping a DL-304. It's far from a favourite of mine, the sound is polite and detailed, but rather lacking in body and impact. In my view, the money would be best put towards a better MC.

[RobbieGong]

I wouldn't spend money retipping a DL-304. It's far from a favourite of mine, the sound is polite and detailed, but rather lacking in body and impact. In my view, the money would be best put towards a better MC.

My guess is he likes the DL-304 sound hence sourcing another.

Not full bodied like the 103 and maybe doesnt boogie in the same way from what I know. Never heard or had one though.

[RobbieGong]

Right !! Lets cut to the chase

Now meticulously set up and with about 4hrs on it. I will say categorically that this cart is gorgeous !!

Like the Shibata Candeza Black it was, it is detailed, accurate non fatiguing and digs the music right out of the grooves.

Now with the Fritz Gyger S replacing the Shibata, this Replicant stylus profile is even more neutral, very beautifully neutral.

Even more detailed in that it digs out even more which is seriously some praise over the Shibata Cadenza which is a detail daddy.

Every instrument is in it's own space, textures are spot on but absolutley even right across the frequency range and that includes vocals which are soooo human and right , expression you name it.

Digs soooo deeep, so clean unscrathced records please as nicks and ticks are picked up if there.

Another thing is the improved stop start of rythmic movement and the dynamic drop of things like rim shots etc which now sound even more 'stick against rim' like, samely snare texture is so much more snare - slap / lick like......

There is also a quietness / calmness to the presentation which is great - I can turn up more without 'noisiness'

To say I am proper glad I took up Angus's recommendation to have the Fritz Gyger S re-tip is an understatement and a half.

He had it done on his Ortofon Vienna and was seriously impressed.

As he also said at the time, it is the best money I could have spent.

A stylus profile that is as the Replicant as used on Ortofons top flight carts costing thousands - I can only say that this is a no brainer upgrade (cause that is what it definitely is) and at less than half the circa £950 Ortofon are asking for to refurb the Cadenza B, I mean what more can I say.

Curtis Mayfield doing the business as we speak, the music is so non-fatiguing, engaging, beautifully and accurately textured instruments.

and only 4hrs on - Kilian recommended circa 14hrs burn in - you mean things are gonna get better !?! :eek:

Thank God I'm all set-up and back in music :yay:

[Bigman80]

Right !! Lets cut to the chase

Now meticulously set up and with about 4hrs on it. I will say categorically that this cart is gorgeous !!

Like the Shibata Candeza Black it was, it is detailed, accurate non fatiguing and digs the music right out of the grooves.

Now with the Fritz Gyger S replacing the Shibata, this Replicant stylus profile is even more neutral, very beautifully neutral.

Even more detailed in that it digs out even more which is seriously some praise over the Shibata Cadenza which is a detail daddy.

Every instrument is in it's own space, textures are spot on but absolutley even right across the frequency range and that includes vocals which are soooo human and right , expression you name it.

Digs soooo deeep, so clean unscrathced records please as nicks and ticks are picked up if there.

Another thing is the improved stop start of rythmic movement and the dynamic drop of things like rim shots etc which now sound even more 'stick against rim' like, samely snare texture is so much more snare - slap / lick like......

There is also a quietness / calmness to the presentation which is great - I can turn up more without 'noisiness'

To say I am proper glad I took up Angus's recommendation to have the Fritz Gyger S re-tip is an understatement and a half.

He had it done on his Ortofon Vienna and was seriously impressed.

As he also said at the time, it is the best money I could have spent.

A stylus profile that is as the Replicant as used on Ortofons top flight carts costing thousands - I can only say that this is a no brainer upgrade (cause that is what it definitely is) and at less than half the circa £950 Ortofon are asking for to refurb the Cadenza B, I mean what more can I say.

Curtis Mayfield doing the business as we speak, the music is so non-fatiguing, engaging, beautifully and accurately textured instruments.

and only 4hrs on - Kilian recommended circa 14hrs burn in - you mean things are gonna get better !?! :eek:

Thank God I'm all set-up and back in music :yay:Absolutely the right move. The FGS is a superb stylus and is a profile I am very keen on.

I have a FG on the Kb and the plan for that is to get it Vienna modded. FGS stylus, Vienna suspension, WRD, the works! I am just waiting until the cart, as is, wears out.

Well done mate and yes, listening to Angus brings serious results.

[Firebottle]

... which is a detail daddy.:

Love it! Glad you are back in the game Robbie, great news.

[JohnG]

This is the Second assessment I have heard about Holistic Audio, and it is another,
Good Positive response to a Cartridge serviced by Kilian.
There is a Kontrapunkt b, that Kilian has breathed on in my possession, yet to be listened to.
It has a Ogura Beryllium Cantilever, and Ogura Vital SA+ Tip, with Vienna Internals.
The Cartridge is not the one I envisaged, I was leaning towards a different type of rebuild.
Kilian reassured me the chosen rebuild will be a success, so I went with this proposal.
As for the cost, it feels like a real bargain at under £600 for a unique model, with cartridge purchase included as well.
In my tight fist equations, £0.60p a album replay, if I can keep all in good fettle for a 1000 hrs.
This Cartridge is soon to have a further bit of magic breathed on it, as Angus will be in receipt of it,
working with it, to extract the best, while setting it up.

[karma67]

happy days!