Farting noises (or a kind of zzst noise) in new pressings?

[montesquieu]

Awesome new jazz LP arrived today (Brad Mehldau - Ballads and Blues - Adam put me on to this bloke and I'm really enjoying his stuff. This is one of his few recordings available on vinyl though there is a massive CD catalogue).

Unfortunately, it has that annoying farting noise in a couple of places - a kind of zzst or tzzzip noise - this is better than a lot of recent pressings I've had to suffer, but annoyingly, still there.

It occurred to me that I have only ever come across this fault in recent issues, where it's depressingly familiar, maybe 1 in 10 records or so, or maybe even more frequent than that at times. (My biggest gripe about the D'Agostino Jazz series that I've been buying is the number of rejects, though they are pretty good at replacing them).

But strangely, I've never encountered this fault in older stuff from the 50s, 60s, 70s, even 80s. (Not sure I have much 90s vinyl I was too busy filling my boots at s/h places where all the sad gits who went over to CD sold their record collections). Older pressings have faults too (clicks, surface noise) and you get these on new pressings as well - but the tzzip thing is more prevalent and can't be cleaned up by either vacuum or ultrasonic machines, unlike a lot of surface noise problems.

So what causes this and why is it so prevalent these days? Anybody know? Is there something different about how vinyl is pressed nowadays?

[struth]

Can't say Ive heard it Tom

[montesquieu]

Can't say Ive heard it Tom

I hadn't either till recent purchases of new vinyl, really the last year or two.

[struth]

Could it be something to do with groove and stylus depths?

[hermit]

These faults are present on all 5 or 6 examples of Blues and Ballads that I have heard. FWVLIW, my friend's shibata tipped Cadenza Black only picks up one or two of the faults whereas it seems that micro line or fine line cartridges pick up every single fault and there are many. I wrote to the record label about this last week but have not received a reply. I hope they do a repress as it is an exceptional album.

The newer Brad Mehldau Trio lp Seymour Reads the Constitution is faultless.

[montesquieu]

These faults are present on all 5 or 6 examples of Blues and Ballads that I have heard. FWVLIW, my friend's shibata tipped Cadenza Black only picks up one or two of the faults whereas it seems that micro line or fine line cartridges pick up every single fault and there are many. I wrote to the record label about this last week but have not received a reply. I hope they do a repress as it is an exceptional album.

The newer Brad Mehldau Trio lp Seymour Reads the Constitution is faultless.

Fab that was Adam's follow-up recommendation :) nice to know.

Any thoughts on this new phenomenon? Are all vinyl LPs now made from recycled bin bags?

BTW where are the best places for s/h vinyl now in Glasgow? - all the great shops seem to have disappeared (Record Exchange in Jamaica Street, Missing Records in Union Street, 23rd Precinct ...) I'm not up home very often but there's hardly anything to be had these days when I do get up, apart from one up off Byres Rd ....

[hermit]

Any thoughts on this new phenomenon? Are all vinyl LPs now made from recycled bin bags?

I've no ideas as to the cause but it's becoming a real problem for me recently. 3 out of my last 4 purchases have been returned. As you say older vinyl is fine but anything from the last couple of years is a lottery. It's quite depressing.


BTW where are the best places for s/h vinyl now in Glasgow? - all the great shops seem to have disappeared (Record Exchange in Jamaica Street, Missing Records in Union Street, 23rd Precinct ...) I'm not up home very often but there's hardly anything to be had these days when I do get up, apart from one up off Byres Rd ....

Sorry Tom but I only buy my records from Amazon, Discogs and the forums.

[Barry]

Sadly the technical 'know how' of record pressing largely became lost with the advent of CD. Even in the 'good old days', the reject rate by established record companies was enormous. And even then I would often have to return about one in five LPs. Fortunately my local record shop was very good about it and didn't quibble: in their words "the only way record companies will learn and do anything about it, is for us to continue to return faulty pressings".

I don't buy many new LPs these days: the most recent have been a couple of Beatles albums and a Bill Evans title, and they have been perfect. But we do hear of many complaints about new pressings. I think that the new pressing companies are using refurbished, but well used (virtually worn out), equipment bought in from former record pressing plants, that is not really up to the job, added to the fact that the quality control is not as good as it should be.

With a typical sale price of £25, one would expect the quality of new pressings to be high.

[montesquieu]

Sadly the technical 'know how' of record pressing largely became lost with the advent of CD. Even in the 'good old days', the reject rate by established record companies was enormous. And even then I would often have to return about one in five LPs. Fortunately my local record shop was very good about it and didn't quibble: in their words "the only way record companies will learn and do anything about it, is for us to continue to return faulty pressings".

I don't buy many new LPs these days: the most recent have been a couple of Beatles albums and a Bill Evans title, and they have been perfect. But we do hear of many complaints about new pressings. I think that the new pressing companies are using refurbished, but well used (virtually worn out), equipment bought in from former record pressing plants, that is not really up to the job, added to the fact that the quality control is not as good as it should be.

With a typical sale price of £25, one would expect the quality of new pressings to be high.

My point is that this is a particular, NEW type of noise that I have never had on older records (not a single one in 4000 of them). So WTF?

[Manicatel]

I will clutch at a couple of straws here.
1....New pressings, re-releases on 180g vinyl at premium prices, the SQ isn't always commensurate with our expectations. The hype of "re-released on 180g" doesn't always bring benefits. As has been said, we pay £20++ for these albums & expect a quality product, which sadly isn't always the case. So are we mugs?
2....from the OP's description of the noise, it reads to me as if its possibly a tracking/VTA thing which may only show up on thicker pressings?
3....Since buying a record cleaner, I always clean brand new records before playing, even though you would think new pressings should be in a very clean condition.

[montesquieu]

I will clutch at a couple of straws here.
1....New pressings, re-releases on 180g vinyl at premium prices, the SQ isn't always commensurate with our expectations. The hype of "re-released on 180g" doesn't always bring benefits. As has been said, we pay £20++ for these albums & expect a quality product, which sadly isn't always the case. So are we


2....from the OP's description of the noise, it reads to me as if its possibly a tracking/VTA thing which may only show up on thicker pressings?
3....Since buying a record cleaner, I always clean brand new records before playing, even though you would think new pressings should be in a very clean condition.

No no and no I’m afraid :

Overall SQ is generally fine. These are specific flaws.

Seems to happen with all sorts of cartridges. And I’m pretty obsessive about tracking and VTA.

I have a Loricraft as well as an ultrasonic cleaver. No effect.

[Macca]

But strangely, I've never encountered this fault in older stuff from the 50s, 60s, 70s, even 80s. (Not sure I have much 90s vinyl I was too busy filling my boots at s/h places where all the sad gits who went over to CD sold their record collections).



I was still buying vinyl only up to about 1996 never had any problems with the 1990s records.


I've only got one recent re-release and it is very noisy. Cleaning did not help.


I'd say the problem is due to a number of factors:


1) Worn out pressing equipment

2) Almost all the people with decades of experience in pressing are now retired or dead

3) Due to the vinyl revival pressing plants have been working at capacity, quality control suffers or just isn't bothered with at all due to the need to keep up and fill orders. They just bang them out and worry about it later.

[montesquieu]

Just curious as to what this *specifuc* flaw is though - you just don’t hear it on older records. Digital related ? But then the flaws would be on the same spot in all pressings, and they aren’t.

[struth]

Possibly some contamination at the pressing stage and its getting stamped into the vinyl.
Depending how deep it is etc will depend on some stylii not noticing it as much

[Sherwood]

Awesome new jazz LP arrived today (Brad Mehldau - Ballads and Blues - Adam put me on to this bloke and I'm really enjoying his stuff. This is one of his few recordings available on vinyl though there is a massive CD catalogue).

Unfortunately, it has that annoying farting noise in a couple of places - a kind of zzst or tzzzip noise - this is better than a lot of recent pressings I've had to suffer, but annoyingly, still there.

It occurred to me that I have only ever come across this fault in recent issues, where it's depressingly familiar, maybe 1 in 10 records or so, or maybe even more frequent than that at times. (My biggest gripe about the D'Agostino Jazz series that I've been buying is the number of rejects, though they are pretty good at replacing them).

But strangely, I've never encountered this fault in older stuff from the 50s, 60s, 70s, even 80s. (Not sure I have much 90s vinyl I was too busy filling my boots at s/h places where all the sad gits who went over to CD sold their record collections). Older pressings have faults too (clicks, surface noise) and you get these on new pressings as well - but the tzzip thing is more prevalent and can't be cleaned up by either vacuum or ultrasonic machines, unlike a lot of surface noise problems.

So what causes this and why is it so prevalent these days? Anybody know? Is there something different about how vinyl is pressed nowadays?

:christmas: Pre Christmas Sprouts? :christmas:

[mikeyb]

I've had this same effect on a couple of records, replaced both, Neil Young Live at the Roxy was one of them but Amazon replaced it no problem.

Replacements were perfect.

[Spectral Morn]

Micheal Fremer at Analog Planet seems to have his finger on the pulse regarding all things vinyl, I am sure he is contactable via email. Contact him and make him aware of this, see what he knows.

[User211]

I've got to be honest the quality of vinyl pressings has ALWAYS been hit and miss. To pretend otherwise is a lie, in my opinion of course.

At school in the 70s my friends and I were always taking them back.

The good ones occurred just enough to keep you buying more. But it has always been a dodgy format and always will be.

Tis a shame cos it can be excellent.

[montesquieu]

I've got to be honest the quality of vinyl pressings has ALWAYS been hit and miss. To pretend otherwise is a lie, in my opinion of course.

At school in the 70s my friends and I were always taking them back.

The good ones occurred just enough to keep you buying more. But it has always been a dodgy format and always will be.

Tis a shame cos it can be excellent.


Justin the issue here is what on earth is this specific noise on the record? I have something like 4000 LPs from the 50s-80s and it doesn't appear on any of them. Yet it seems to be common on recent releases.

[WESTLOWER]

Justin the issue here is what on earth is this specific noise on the record? I have something like 4000 LPs from the 50s-80s and it doesn't appear on any of them. Yet it seems to be common on recent releases.

I agree.. it only seemed to be a few of the very recently pressed lps.
Personally I thought it was something in the transfer but as Tom says he had lps replaced and similar noise is on these too, in different places on the cut. It sounds like a digital fart. More investigation is needed, I’m sure we can crack the riddle!

[AJSki2fly]

I agree.. it only seemed to be a few of the very recently pressed lps.
Personally I thought it was something in the transfer but as Tom says he had lps replaced and similar noise is on these too, in different places on the cut. It sounds like a digital fart. More investigation is needed, I’m sure we can crack the riddle!

I think you have hit the nail on the proverbial head. Back in the days of early CD lots of albums were transferred to digital masters without much care taken and the result was poor a poor copy when replayed, and in some cases noise (digital fart). So maybe your LP is one pressed from a digital master of dubious quality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikeyb]

I've only ever heard it on recent releases too.

[Audio Al]

I suffer this after eating fried onions all sorts of weird farting noises :)

OK :door:

[Oddball]

Seeing as Al has already besmirched this thread , I was going to say (showing my age too) that perhaps the Phantom Raspberry Blower was in the studio at the time !!




I'll get my coat then !!:)

[Macca]

Back in the days of early CD lots of albums were transferred to digital masters without much care taken and the result was poor a poor copy when replayed



I know that story gets repeated a lot but I have to say I've never found any source for it. I do wonder if it is just another audiophile myth. As anyone who has made a digital copy of one of their LPs - or reel to reel tapes - will tell you, it isn't exactly difficult to get good results. I just find it unlikely that professional engineers would screw it up.


There's a similar myth regarding digital recording about how when it was first introduced the studio engineers didn't know how to use it properly. I've asked a couple of them about that and they just laughed. They said it was way easier to get good results with digital and they'd never heard of anyone having problems.

[GrahamS]

Could be what we called "non-fill." The vinyl donut is not hot enough to flow properly or is too cold and "sticks" to some places or the material doesn't release cleanly from the stamper when the cooling cycle ends, or the cooling cycle is too short. It could also be release agent remaining on the stamper when it was separated from the nickel mother, but this would usually erode away after a number of cycles. There are a couple more possibilities but these are the most likely.

Bottom line is: poor quality control.

[Barry]

Could be what we called "non-fill." The vinyl donut is not hot enough to flow properly or is too cold and "sticks" to some places or the material doesn't release cleanly from the stamper when the cooling cycle ends, or the cooling cycle is too short. It could also be release agent remaining on the stamper when it was separated from the nickel mother, but this would usually erode away after a number of cycles. There are a couple more possibilities but these are the most likely.

Bottom line is: poor quality control.

I take it from your reply Graham that you have, or had, some knowledge of the record pressing business. I have read statements from other people employed in pressing plants that stamper release agents are not used at all. Can you clarify?

[harmonica98]

This is undoubtedly non-fill. Nothing can be done about it so one either has to return the record or live with it!

[GrahamS]

I take it from your reply Graham that you have, or had, some knowledge of the record pressing business. I have read statements from other people employed in pressing plants that stamper release agents are not used at all. Can you clarify?

Some used them, some didn't. My plant didn't. There are various stages between master/mother/stamper release that could give opportunity for residue to remain. Some plants polished the stamper before use with rouge. Some then used an electrolytic cleaning bath. Some did nothing at all. Every plant had it's own techniques. In my plant, the electro-forming manager had been doing the job for thirty years and was very secretive. The competition were always trying to gain access to the facility to discover our methods. Some plants methods were dictated by their "head office" and written in stone (Philips, Polygram, EMI) some were given the freedom to experiment and develop their own methods (Decca, CBS, Trutone/Gallo.)

I constructed and then managed a Polygram/Philips musicasette factory and mastering facility for ten years and the adjoining vinyl plant as a relief manager.

[WESTLOWER]

Some used them, some didn't. My plant didn't. There are various stages between master/mother/stamper release that could give opportunity for residue to remain. Some plants polished the stamper before use with rouge. Some then used an electrolytic cleaning bath. Some did nothing at all. Every plant had it's own techniques. In my plant, the electro-forming manager had been doing the job for thirty years and was very secretive. The competition were always trying to gain access to the facility to discover our methods. Some plants methods were dictated by their "head office" and written in stone (Philips, Polygram, EMI) some were given the freedom to experiment and develop their own methods (Decca, CBS, Trutone/Gallo.)

I constructed and then managed a Polygram/Philips musicasette factory and mastering facility for ten years and the adjoining vinyl plant as a relief manager.

This is interesting..
So methods or practices must of changed relatively recently for this to happen on so many 'newer' pressings?
and excuse me for being a bit of a thicky.... will all the pressings from that stamper have the same fault in the same place?

[GrahamS]

This is interesting..
So methods or practices must of changed relatively recently for this to happen on so many 'newer' pressings?
and excuse me for being a bit of a thicky.... will all the pressings from that stamper have the same fault in the same place?

If the problem is non-fill, then no. If the problem is caused before or during the forming of the stamper, yes.

If I were looking for the problem on the factory floor, I would look at the previous pressings 50 back from the one with the fault. If the fault is not there, I would investigate the press settings (cycle times and temperatures.) . If the problem is there, I would pull the stamper and inspect the "mother" before replacing it.

Either way, I would also condemn all of the faulty pressings.

[Ceburaska]

Tom,
As I mentioned when we met, this is exactly the issue I had with de Agostini vinyl. Probably six or seven in total.
I’ve never had it with any other vinyl, new or old.
I’ll try out an elliptical stylus to see if it makes any difference.
It’s definitely not a recording issue as replacing the records solved the problem.

[montesquieu]

Tom,
As I mentioned when we met, this is exactly the issue I had with de Agostini vinyl. Probably six or seven in total.
I’ve never had it with any other vinyl, new or old.
I’ll try out an elliptical stylus to see if it makes any difference.
It’s definitely not a recording issue as replacing the records solved the problem.

Hi Lawrence yes we discussed when you came round, in fact our conversation was what raised my curiosity as to what the problem actually is. As you say, it must be a pressing issue as the faults' positions vary between LPs. I have eliptical, line contact and shibata tips here, it doesn't make any difference really except perhaps to the degree of the noise. The 'non-fill' diagnosis does seem to fit the bill here.

My failure rate on the De Agostini set is similar to yours - close to 10%. That's a shed load of replacements if people are actively complaining about them. Indeed the company should be insisting on better quality control.

[User211]

Justin the issue here is what on earth is this specific noise on the record? I have something like 4000 LPs from the 50s-80s and it doesn't appear on any of them. Yet it seems to be common on recent releases.I know it was just a vinyl snotogram type post.

Not aimed at you take no offense. But it always did and does annoy me to this day.

[hermit]

I have the new Hana ML here on loan and to my delight it played my copy of Blues and Ballads without a glitch.

Lovely well balanced cartridge. First impressions are very good.

[eisenach]

My point is that this is a particular, NEW type of noise that I have never had on older records (not a single one in 4000 of them). So WTF?

The first time I heard this was on a DG Archiv pressing bought in Germany in 1982 (2533 404 - Busnois/Binchois. Pro Cantione Antiqua/Bruno Turner)

I've heard it a few times since, funnily enough only the other day on a second-hand LP I'd just cleaned.

I suspect it's part of the groove that didn't press or come out of the mould properly.

[Smegger68]

Had this on a few of the DeAgostini LPs, one was so bad it persuaded me to cancel the subscription. Can't be bothered returning them all, though it is very annoying.

[WESTLOWER]

I have the new Hana ML here on loan and to my delight it played my copy of Blues and Ballads without a glitch.

Lovely well balanced cartridge. First impressions are very good.

Thats Good to hear, but i assure you this issue isn't a cartridge compatibility one. These are faulty pressings. 100%

[montesquieu]

Had this on a few of the DeAgostini LPs, one was so bad it persuaded me to cancel the subscription. Can't be bothered returning them all, though it is very annoying.

All finished now anyway I got numbers 69 and 70 in October. I miss it it was nice getting two completely random records in the post every month!

Though as you say quite a few of them were duff, I must have returned a good 10% of what arrived and in once case I got three copies of a record one after the other, all with farting noise in different places. Shocking quality control.

It's a bit strange really though .. I wouldn't thank you for two random classical records every month, my tastes there are shaped long ago, but while I've always listened to a bit of Jazz I didn't have real knowledge so it's been a proper voyage of discovery and a great jumping off point for exploring artists I hadn't heard of or whose names I had come across without any awareness of where they were coming from or how they fitted into things.

And there wasn't **too** much stuff that wasn't to my taste, a bit of free /psychedelic jazz (which I loathe), also some of the chewier big band stuff is an acquired taste. But on the whole it was well worth it in my view.


Thats Good to hear, but i assure you this issue isn't a cartridge compatibility one. These are faulty pressings. 100%


Yup. 100%.

[hermit]

Thats Good to hear, but i assure you this issue isn't a cartridge compatibility one. These are faulty pressings. 100%

I agree that there are issues with some modern pressings including Blues and Ballads which is unplayable with my Kiseki. As I said above, my friend's Ortofon Cadenza Black played it fine as did the Hana ML. In fact, today I'm trying a Phasemation PP-300 and it too has played the record perfectly well. I'm wondering if the profile of the Kiseki's tip is allowing it to get further down into the groove and is exposing the poor pressing whilst the others are riding above the damage?

[WESTLOWER]

I agree that there are issues with some modern pressings including Blues and Ballads which is unplayable with my Kiseki. As I said above, my friend's Ortofon Cadenza Black played it fine as did the Hana ML. In fact, today I'm trying a Phasemation PP-300 and it too has played the record perfectly well. I'm wondering if the profile of the Kiseki's tip is allowing it to get further down into the groove and is exposing the poor pressing whilst the others are riding above the damage?

That’s Interesting.

[WESTLOWER]

So just received my long awaited Boxset of The Complete Lansdowne Recordings 1965 - 1969
Don Rendell/Ian Carr Quintet. Basically this has sold out before it was on sale. (total bollocks all that press minimal run, massive scramble to get one, next day stupidly inflated prices on eBay and discogs! elite bollox record buying for the well to do )
Anyway managed to snag one for the real rrp... £90

Myself and Mrs Westlower, Sat down to really get into the LPs, playing the Title cut, Shades Of Blue, beautiful, just wonderful, then at the quietest moody part of the cut...DIGITAL FART...

I tried to ignore it...then another...."That's a real shame says the Mrs." "Yes it Fooking is!!" says I
I give up, What the Fuck is going on with new pressings??!! Really getting fed up with this, to the point of debating to not buying new vinyl any longer.

Anyway for you Digital folk out there, all the LPs have been simultaneously released on Tidal, (and prob Spotify.)
Without shitty digital farts and scuffing noises.


https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54582-What-Jazz-or-Blues-are-you-spinning&p=1030790&highlight=Complete+Lansdowne+Recordings#post103079 0

http://www.jazzmanrecords.co.uk/don-rendell-ian-carr-quintet-the-complete-lansdowne-recordings


UPDATE
Just had an email response from the owner of the Record Label who was very apologetic and has promised to get a Fart free copy sent to me asap. He said he was aware of a a few copies that have the issue.
So, watch this space but 10 out of 10 for Customer service from an independent record co., Jazzman records

I must make it clear that this post was about the whole New problems of new Vinyl and pressing Farts, not to publicly moan about an independent.