Authenticity of carts.

[Mikeandvan]

Got a bit wined up last night and pressed the button on a Nagoaka MP200 that had been saved in my Ebay watch list for too long. I couldn't really afford it, but now its on its way. Was £260, the cheapest deal I could find in the UK was £350. It's got me wondering though how do we know when dropping all this money on these tiny bits of plastic and whatever material the stylus is made of that we are actually getting the genuine article and not some dirt cheap fake? I understand my cart spend is in the 'budget' range as well! I wouldn't say that £200+ is good value for a bit of plastic but there we go! So, if it sounds shite I'll know why. Anybody else had their suspicions? I certainly wouldn't buy a used cart off Ebay, with the usual bull crap of 'unknown hours'.

[Macca]

Assuming it is genuine, and I'd guess it is, it's a bloody good cartridge. Nagaoka are top shag quality, you'll soon see/hear if it is a fake.

[smangus]

bought 3 cartridges off ebay , last one a zyx at 750. never any issues . seller feedback very useful in this situation. Good luck .

[walpurgis]

Shouldn't worry too much.

I've owned literally hundreds of cartridges and never come across anything that had me wondering if it was a fake. The case may be different for styli though.

I have also bought many dozens of used cartridges from ebay, some quite expensive and never had a dud apart from one cheapie that was honestly described as possibly having issues.

[Mikeandvan]

Japanese seller, has pretty good feedback, just seems like it would be such an easy scam, don't want to give anyone ideas though! I'm looking forward to the cart, seems to be the sweet spot in the range, hoping it will make my Kinks records sound a bit more mellow. If all goes well I'll certainly be buying my carts from Japan in future, much cheaper - oops forgot about customs charges, so we'll see how that works out!

[montesquieu]

Japanese seller, has pretty good feedback, just seems like it would be such an easy scam, don't want to give anyone ideas though! I'm looking forward to the cart, seems to be the sweet spot in the range, hoping it will make my Kinks records sound a bit more mellow.

Tubes are the answer.

[Mikeandvan]

Tubes are the answer.

Strangely enough I never thought of that, could be just what I'm looking for. I currently use a Nait 5, with flat cap. Recent purchase so not looking to change just yet, but yeh, I should definitely look into going glowing.

[topoxforddoc]

Fake cartridges do exist.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/beware-of-gray-market-koetsu-cartridges-1/

[montesquieu]

Fake cartridges do exist.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/beware-of-gray-market-koetsu-cartridges-1/

I'm very suspicious about companies that attempt sow doubt on grey market sales by this sort of statement. It was very common in the early days of the internet when companies were trying to turn back the tide and stick with the old ways of doing things. I've seen similar comments with Shelter and ZXY. It's less common nowadays.

I've bought lots of second hand high end cartridges over the years - from Japan or occasionally Hong Kong - and frequently sat them beside UK sourced stuff (SPUs for example), and they have always looked and sounded just as they should, the same as stuff from the dealer network. I'm sure a fake at this level would be pretty obvious.

But then again I've always gone to trusted sources - sometimes grey market, but trusted. An example was when I bought an Ikeda 9TT from Juki, a well known Hong Kong seller. This was at a great price but when it arrived, it was unbalanced (down on one channel). Needless to say he took it back and refunded right away. But this is exactly the sort of seller the distribution chain would try to slander by casting doubt. My current 9TT came with paperwork from an Ikeda dealer - but second hand, it's still a risk (perhaps more of one since it came from an end-user not a dealer, even a grey market one).

I think by fake most people mean organised manufacture of goods intended to misrepresent. I doubt that's what this Koetsu referred to in the link is. There are probably all sorts of Koetsus out there that have been retipped or otherwise mucked about with, but sold as original Sugano. That's not a fake as such, more a trap for naive buyers when going second hand - something that's at least partly original, but altogether not as described - this sort of thing happens all the time.

I would rarely buy a retip of a high end cartridge as the failure rate - in terms of people liking the result they get back - is pretty high (look at the number of them that get sold on soon after they come back from work being done) - not unless I'd heard it first anyway. Yes there are some good ones, and some good retippers, but it's always a risk. Third party retipped Koetsus ... hmmm .. I would say you have to be lucky as it's almost never going to come back sounding like a Sugano era cartridge. I would certainly want to hear it and there are some retippers I'd steer completely clear of.

Always buy the seller, as much as buying the goods, and you won't go far wrong.

[Mikeandvan]

Fake cartridges do exist.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/beware-of-gray-market-koetsu-cartridges-1/

Scary, and about 20 times what my MP 200 costs!

[smangus]

Can't see the value in faking lower priced carts. Too much hassle for not enough gain.

[Mikeandvan]

Can't see the value in faking lower priced carts. Too much hassle for not enough gain.

I was thinking they might just stick a stylus on it from a cheaper cart in the same range!

[Barry]

It's certainly true that it would be quite easy to fit a stylus with an 'unsophisticated' profile and pass it off as something else. It requires a powerful microscope to be able to examine a stylus's profile.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are some far eastern Asian countries who are known to pay scant regard to copyright and may be producing copies of some high end cartridges. There are already counterfeit Telefunken valves, Neumann microphones and copies of Quad 405 circuit boards, so why not cartridges. And the value of the product doesn't necessary matter - there are forgeries (some potentially dangerous) of Bussmann BS1362 cartridge fuses.

Caveat Emptor!

[montesquieu]

I’d like to see some evidence before falling for manufacturers’ spin.

We have Koetsu there (in 2009) saying a grey market cartridge had a 2004 serial number - feasible in a grey market cartridge surely? - and jumping to claims of it bring counterfeit, on zero verifiable facts.

There was some audio note cable being faked for a bit but it had wrong printing on it. I have seen no evidence at all of organised fakery of high end cartridges. The odd wrongly represented (but genuine) cartridge is not the same thing.

[Barry]

I haven't seen any evidence of forgeries of high-end cartridges either, but that's not to say that there aren't any.

I've bought about a dozen used cartridges on eBay, and all were original and unmolested samples, but they were all 'vintage' designs, so unlikely to be forgeries.

Koetsu have now evolved to Veblen status, so like Burberry, Leica, Rolex and a host of other up-market items, are very concerned about the maintenance of their image and reputation, hence the warning about grey selling.

[montesquieu]

I haven't seen any evidence of forgeries of high-end cartridges either, but that's not to say that there aren't any.

I've bought about a dozen used cartridges on eBay, and all were original and unmolested samples, but they were all 'vintage' designs, so unlikely to be forgeries.

Koetsu have now evolved to Veblen status, so like Burberry, Leica, Rolex and a host of other up-market items, are very concerned about the maintenance of their image and reputation, hence the warning about grey selling.

All the more reason to take Koetsu's warblings with a pinch of salt.

Also - given that a fairly high proportion of high end cartridge users have some idea what they are looking at, plus the large number of hifi forums in multiple languages worldwide, I think if this was any kind of a significant problem there would be postings out there, with pics, cartridges dissected, sources and channels exposed ... and I haven't seen that for any audio brand.

[paulf-2007]

Japanese seller, has pretty good feedback, just seems like it would be such an easy scam, don't want to give anyone ideas though! I'm looking forward to the cart, seems to be the sweet spot in the range, hoping it will make my Kinks records sound a bit more mellow. If all goes well I'll certainly be buying my carts from Japan in future, much cheaper - oops forgot about customs charges, so we'll see how that works out!
A bit of fluff on the stylus is cheaper than tubes:)

[Barry]

All the more reason to take Koetsu's warblings with a pinch of salt.

Also - given that a fairly high proportion of high end cartridge users have some idea what they are looking at, plus the large number of hifi forums in multiple languages worldwide, I think if this was any kind of a significant problem there would be postings out there, with pics, cartridges dissected, sources and channels exposed ... and I haven't seen that for any audio brand.

I have heard (uncorroborated) rumors of Koetsu 'Black' cartridges having had their bodies repainted and passed off as an 'Urushi'. Probably an urban myth.

[montesquieu]

I have heard (uncorroborated) rumors of Koetsu 'Black' cartridges having had their bodies repainted and passed off as an 'Urushi'. Probably an urban myth.

Where?

[Barry]

Where?

I found it mentioned on the Audiogon forum. If it was true, it was probably an unscrupulous seller on eBay or another internet auction site.

[Mike Reed]

I have heard (uncorroborated) rumors of Koetsu 'Black' cartridges having had their bodies repainted and passed off as an 'Urushi'. Probably an urban myth.

You'd certainly tell the difference when playing it ! The Black (Goldline) has twice the output of an Urushi, and to lacquer a Black to emulate one of the Urushis is not something I'd like to try. The Vermillion at a pinch, maybe, but its output is even lower.

[topoxforddoc]

You'd certainly tell the difference when playing it ! The Black (Goldline) has twice the output of an Urushi, and to lacquer a Black to emulate one of the Urushis is not something I'd like to try. The Vermillion at a pinch, maybe, but its output is even lower.

Mike, you'd only notice it, if you didn't have another Koestu for comparison. Aural memory in terms of loudness is not particularly accurate. At that sort of many, there's a big margin to be made by fakers. Fakers in the Far East often make counterfeits of expensive goods. You see copies of Rolex watches and the latest Vuitton and Mulberry handbags for sale by street hawkers in Hong Kong.

[Barry]

True, but counterfeit copies of Rolex watches and Louis Vuitton handbags are easily spotted if you know what to look for.

A hapless purchaser of a fake Koetsu will not know until he hears one, and then, as you say would have to have a genuine sample for comparison.

[Mikeandvan]

Well carts arrived, MP 200, just to say I didn't have to pay extra customs charges, so that's £260 for a cart that in the UK will cost you at least £350, and it arrived in only a week, free p&p.

[Spectral Morn]

Well carts arrived, MP 200, just to say I didn't have to pay extra customs charges, so that's £260 for a cart that in the UK will cost you at least £350, and it arrived in only a week, free p&p.

I have read and heard it said that carts for different market places where climate is different can have slightly different materials used in the suspension in order to maintain consistent performance from market to market. Its possible that this isn't true and has been put about to put people off buying from other market places, but climatic conditions are different round the world so it might be true.

[montesquieu]

True, but counterfeit copies of Rolex watches and Louis Vuitton handbags are easily spotted if you know what to look for.

A hapless purchaser of a fake Koetsu will not know until he hears one, and then, as you say would have to have a genuine sample for comparison.

I'd love to see evidence of all these fake Koetsus - you know, with pictures and stuff - rather than all this assertion. There are whole factories making fake watches and handbags and a massive distribution chain. For hifi - nada. Hence my belief that it's all FUD bollocks put around by vested interests.

[Mike Reed]

Mike, you'd only notice it, if you didn't have another Koestu for comparison.

Don't you mean the opposite; i.e. if one DID have a K to hand ? Point taken and agreed, regardless.

[Barry]

I'd love to see evidence of all these fake Koetsus - you know, with pictures and stuff - rather than all this assertion. There are whole factories making fake watches and handbags and a massive distribution chain. For hifi - nada. Hence my belief that it's all FUD bollocks put around by vested interests.

You're probably right, I doubt if there is mass production of Koetsu cartridge copies; the rumour I alluded to (if true) was probably a 'chancer' trying it on, and a one-off at that.

But there are counterfeit copies of valves from well-regarded manufacturers such as Telefunken and Siemens & Halske out there. It wouldn't take much to re-label a valve with a new logo etc. Again if you know what to look for these copies can be spotted.

[Mikeandvan]

I have read and heard it said that carts for different market places where climate is different can have slightly different materials used in the suspension in order to maintain consistent performance from market to market. Its possible that this isn't true and has been put about to put people off buying from other market places, but climatic conditions are different round the world so it might be true.
Whats the suspension ? The cantilever? Its boron, but that's the same anywhere, looking on Ebay I see a well regarded UK seller flogging the MP 200 at £429! Mine was £260 from Japan, and looks all fine, just playing its first few sides now.

[Barry]

Whats the suspension ? The cantilever? Its boron, but that's the same anywhere, looking on Ebay I see a well regarded UK seller flogging the MP 200 at £429! Mine was £260 from Japan, and looks all fine, just playing its first few sides now.

The suspension is the compliant rubber 'pivot' inside the cartridge.

Whilst what Neil says could well be true, I wouldn't worry about it. Nagaoka are well respected cartridge manufacturers - so just enjoy yours ! :)

[Mike Reed]

Whats the suspension ? The cantilever? Its boron, but that's the same anywhere,

I'm quite surprised to see a cart; any cart, at that price level with a boron cantilever. It's costly stuff, and boron has appreciated in price a fair bit in the last year or so. I had been vaguely thinking about risking a Nag. (500 ?) to replace the surprising Ortofon VMS20E mk.2. I'd never intended to keep the VMS; had it for years and just wanted to hear it. It's so good that my mind is going toward getting a mm for the first time in, probably, 40 years.

Nit up to speed in the top mm offerings out there, but the Nag. 500 (?) keeps coming up.

[Macca]

I'm quite surprised to see a cart; any cart, at that price level with a boron cantilever. It's costly stuff, and boron has appreciated in price a fair bit in the last year or so. I had been vaguely thinking about risking a Nag. (500 ?) to replace the surprising Ortofon VMS20E mk.2. I'd never intended to keep the VMS; had it for years and just wanted to hear it. It's so good that my mind is going toward getting a mm for the first time in, probably, 40 years.

Nit up to speed in the top mm offerings out there, but the Nag. 500 (?) keeps coming up.

I've got a 50 with a 500 stylus. Does nothing wrong but won't be to everyone's taste. If you like the Ortofon or AT sound then avoid Nags.

Used to have the 30 and on reflection I think I preferred that and I've seen a few people say the same thing. Replacement styli are very pricey though, it isn't like the old days of MM anymore. And stylus life is low on the top line Nagaokas so take that into account.

[Mike Reed]

If you like the Ortofon or AT sound then avoid Nags.

And stylus life is low on the top line Nagaokas so take that into account.

Thanks for that, Martin. Point taken about the longevity of Nagaoka styli. Of the 3 Ortofons I've been acquainted with or had, the MC 30 (I think) was 'orrible and the Rohmann was lacklustre. My friend's FL25 (?) had a bit of go. All coils of course, but I'm impressed by my VMS20E. However, I can't say that Ortofons blow me away like Koetsu, Transfiguration and Benz (or Lyra, but I've moved on from that presentation). Never had AT, but believe them to be a wee bit raw.

I think that Nag's are not paint-stripping at all; could be wrong, though.