Preferred listening level dB

[HighFidelityGuy]

Hi,

I managed to get the house to myself for a couple of hours yesterday and so decided to listen to some music at what I would call my preferred level. Part way through I wondered exactly how loud I was playing my system, as it's not something I've ever measured before. I thought it would be interesting to find out, as my idea of a suitable listening level appears to be somewhat louder than what my wife deems acceptable.

I used my DEQ2496 and ECM8000 to measure during some music and seemed to be averaging a peak reading of about 85dB C weighted. I know a few other people on hear have SPL meters in varying forms, so I'd be interested to know what SPL other people call their preferred listening level. I've made this thread a poll to make it easier to compare the results.

As a side note, I had my measurement mic positioned where my head would usually be at my usual listening position.

Cheers. :)

[HighFidelityGuy]

Perhaps I should qualify what I mean by "your preferred listening level". I would say that this is the volume at which you feel you get the most enjoyment out of the music. You can hear every detail and really feel like your experiencing the music. Perhaps you can feel the bass kick as well. I would also say that it shouldn't be painfully loud, just loud enough.

That's how I would describe it. Perhaps others may describe it differently. :)

[chris@panteg]

I don't have any means of measuring the db level ' but my 740a has a logarithmic volume control going from 0 - 72 db .

And i generally listen between 30 and 50 with 42 db being optimum to me (wife says too loud though) but it sounds very good even lower than 30 db .

So where would that put me on your scale ?

i am thinking maybe 80 -89 !

[HighFidelityGuy]

I don't have any means of measuring the db level ' but my 740a has a logarithmic volume control going from 0 - 72 db .

And i generally listen between 30 and 50 with 42 db being optimum to me (wife says too loud though) but it sounds very good even lower than 30 db .

So where would that put me on your scale ?

i am thinking maybe 80 -89 !

It's difficult to say really as the markings on volume controls don't translate to real SPL measurements. HERE's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure) a table comparing SPL to real world things. See if you can find something in there that you think would compare. :)

[Haselsh1]

I don't use meters to listen to my music. I use my ears and set a suitable level that way.

[Rare Bird]

Always low level listerning. My amp VU's hardly move

[HighFidelityGuy]

I don't use meters to listen to my music. I use my ears and set a suitable level that way.

Er, I can't remember mentioning that I used a meter to set my listening level. You seem to have completely misunderstood the purpose of this thread. :scratch:

I quite clearly stated that I measured the SPL after listening for a while, not the other way round. I'm simply interested to know how loud people like to listen to their music. Taking a measurement is the only accurate way to get any comparison between individuals. I'm certainly not suggesting that people should use an SPL meter to set the volume that they listen at, that's just odd. :scratch:

[John]

I like it loud!!!

[twelvebears]

Hi Dave.

I know exactly what you mean as I also find my 'preferred listening level' is a bit louder than Susy likes (though in truth it"s more because she worries about the neighbours), so I like to indulge during the day on Friday's when I work from home and she and next door are at work.

Measured the SPL at my listening position and got about 85-88db

This is one of my main reasons for wanting a dedicated listening room, there's definitely a point where the sound really comes together and the sound-stage fills out properly.

[smurfbrain]

Out of pure curiosity I measured spl in my small room. It was around 62db at listening position using xtz software.

[jonners]

At this point we already have 6 members who claim to listen at 120dB! :eek:
It's generally agreed that even short exposure over 100dB can cause permanent hearing damage; the safe exposure time at 120dB is probably less than a minute!

[Rare Bird]

I'm glad i don't live next door to you lot :lolsign:

[Joe]

Around 65db usually. Quieter late at night.

[Barry]

I have had to calculate the SPL. The typical volume control setting of my Quad 44 is '10'. At this setting, the output from the pre-amp is -24dB down on 0.5V, that is 0.032V. My (slugged) 405 produces 50W for an input of 0.5V. -24dB on 50W is 0.2W.

My speakers are Quad ESLs (57) having a sensitivity of 82 dBA/W, so for 0.2W the SPL will be 75dBA. Two speakers thus giving 78dBA.

At this stage I have to confess I don't know if power amplifiers have a power that is proportional to input voltage or not. Assuming they do, then 0.032V will generate 3.15W or +5dBW, providing 87dBA per speaker or 90dBA for the pair. Frankly, this looks rather high to me, being only 13dB below the maximum sound pressure level these speakers can produce.

I'll poll 70-79dBA, unless someone can point the error in my calculations.

Regards

[Themis]

50-60 dB.
On rare occasions, mainly for critical listening, around 90dB.

[Themis]

I'll poll 70-79dBA, unless someone can point the error in my calculations.

Regards
Your calculations give the maximum level (at source 0dB). You should substract at least 14dB (I would say 20dB) for average listening material level.

[twelvebears]

At this point we already have 6 members who claim to listen at 120dB! :eek:
It's generally agreed that even short exposure over 100dB can cause permanent hearing damage; the safe exposure time at 120dB is probably less than a minute!

Clearly deaf, mad, or probably both!

[hifi_dave]

I usually crank it up till my sight blurs then back it off one notch....:stalks:

[The Grand Wazoo]

I don't have an SPL meter or the wherewithal to make the calculations, but I'd love to know!
I actually vary the volume quite a bit according to the recording and my mood, but I do favour pretty lively volumes most of the time. The rest of the family usually like it like this too, though my teenage electric guitar playing daughter has been known to ask me to turn it down on occasion. Work that one out! Obviously very late at night, things get backed off to more appropriate levels.
I don't believe that I have ever listened to music at 120dB though, even when my nearest neighbours were miles away.

[Mike Reed]

The volume of the music is commensurate with the volume of wine. When the cats decide to exit, I back it off a little

[The Vinyl Adventure]

It's funny you mention cats, at certain levels one of mine goes and sits near the speaker, where he never other wise sits... Il get my iPhone out next time I have a listen and run my spl app, last time I did it at good comfortable levels I seem to remember it was about 75 - 80 or around there...
I suspect those stating 120 are being a touch silly or have no idea what that would actually sound like ...

[jonners]

I have had to calculate the SPL. The typical volume control setting of my Quad 44 is '10'. At this setting, the output from the pre-amp is -24dB down on 0.5V, that is 0.032V. My (slugged) 405 produces 50W for an input of 0.5V. -24dB on 50W is 0.2W.

My speakers are Quad ESLs (57) having a sensitivity of 82 dBA/W, so for 0.2W the SPL will be 75dBA. Two speakers thus giving 78dBA.

At this stage I have to confess I don't if power amplifiers have a power that is proportional to input voltage or not. Assuming they do, then 0.032V will generate 3.15W or +5dBW, providing 87dBA per speaker or 90dBA for the pair. Frankly, this looks rather high to me, being only 13dB below the maximum sound pressure level these speakers can produce.

I'll poll 70-79dBA, unless someone can point the error in my calculations.

Regards

Barry -
Speaker sensitivity is usually quoted as the SPL at a distance of only one metre, so at the usual listening distance the levels are likely to be 10dB or more lower - which makes your final estimate look about right.

[Alex_UK]

I have no way of measuring, and of course it will vary from speaker to speaker (and even speaker cable) out of the same amp, so "15-20" is not going to help, especially as it could be "30-40" with vinyl when I have the house to myself (no worries about neighbours, unless I have the patio doors open, luckily.)

So, to describe it, I would say louder than my wife would like, but still not quite loud enough for me most of the time - though I rarely "cane it" but there is definitely a tipping point where it all hangs together better.

So, that reply was about as much use as tits on a fish, but I didn't want to feel left out! :lol:

[DSJR]

The six people claiming 120+db either have no hearing left or are taking the pee.....:D

[UV101]

I've just checked mine with my iPhone app and although its too late (kids in bed) to get it to my own optimum listening level, i'm averaging 45db and thats just about over background music level! Nothing is coming together at this level for sure! I'll test it tomorrow with some proper volume!!!

120+db lmao ears would be bleeding! certainly may as well sell any decent hifi and get a saisho cdp cos you'd be too deaf to hear the difference. Also, what are they using to produce 120db? you'd need about a megawatt of output into a boxroom!!:lolsign:

[Barry]

Your calculations give the maximum level (at source 0dB). You should substract at least 14dB (I would say 20dB) for average listening material level.

OK, that makes it 64dB. It's only a calculation; until I can borrow an SPL meter, it's somewhat academic.

Regards

[UV101]

So, to describe it, I would say louder than my wife would like, but still not quite loud enough for me most of the time - though I rarely "cane it" but there is definitely a tipping point where it all hangs together better. Ditto!


So, that reply was about as much use as tits on a fish, but I didn't want to feel left out! :lol: :lolsign:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Screen capture from iPhone app, listening to pink floyd at hannah-is-at-work level...

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/290f2555.jpg

[chris@panteg]

i think 70 to 80 ish is about right for me , with an occasional dalliance into the high 80's

[twelvebears]

I doubt many people even own systems capable of in-room levels of 120+dba which needs either serious wattage and/or very sensitive speakers to get to that kind of volume.

I remember really cranking my system a few years back, when the 'loud end' consisted of my M3 amp and (now sadly sold) Sonus Faber Extrema speakers, and measuring in-room levels of 118dba in a reasonable sized living room. It wasn't flat out but it was so loud that communicating with anyone was impossible without screaming and any unsecured fittings (i.e. doors, furniture, window frames etc) were doing their best to vibrate along in sympathy.

Having actually experienced that kind of volume, I find it very hard to believe anyone would actually choose to listen to it on a regular basis.

If I had a listening environment free of domestic or social considerations, I could imagine occasionally hitting peaks like that on some orchestral crescendos or Jazz with big brass sections (brass sections are so loud live it makes your brain hurt), but there's no way on earth I could imagine it on more constant volume stuff like rock or dance.

[HighFidelityGuy]

I forgot there were iPhone apps available for doing this. That should allow a few extra people to take part. Also, for those that don't have access to any sort of SPL meter, I found THIS (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm) much better table that compares SPL readings to real world stuff.

I'm guessing that the people that voted in the 120dB+ category either use PA systems for listening to music or are simply taking the piss. Either that or they prefer listening to music live and don't get the same feeling from listening to their Hi-Fi. :scratch:

I'm also surprised to see people voting in the 0-49 and 50-59db categories, especially the first. Below 50dB is the SPL you would find in the average quiet room, possibly with a very quiet conversation going on. 50-59dB is a fairly quiet room with an average conversation going on. I don't understand how anyone can deem whisper quiet to be an acceptable listening level. That's barely even background music. :scratch: So either these people have a completely different idea of "acceptable" to me or have incorrectly guessed an SPL figure. Who knows.

I definitely agree that there seems to be a certain volume level at which Hi-Fi systems really get into there stride and everything comes together. Listening at lower levels you just don't experience the dynamics and power and don't get drawn into the music in the same way. I really don't understand how people can live with tiny bookshelf speakers but I guess it also depends on the type of music you listen to and what type of sound you like. If all you listen to is classical guitar recordings or something like that, then I guess big speakers and tons of power just aren't necessary.

I suppose what I'm looking for is a realistic SPL for the type of music I'm listening to. So using classical guitar as the example, I would want this to sound as if the guitarist was in the room with me playing live. That way you feel part of the performance. Seen as I mainly listen to rock and other music that involves electric guitars, keyboards and big drum kits, I like it to sound as if the band are playing live in my living room. To me live gigs are often a bit too loud, general being at least around 100dB+. I find this can be a bit painful and tiring to the ear. So I guess that makes my 80-89dB reading make sense as its a little below what you would experience at an actual gig. So I get most of the same effect but without the ringing in my ears that lasts for 2 days afterwards. :eek:

I'll try and remember to play some classical guitar tonight and see what SPL I get from that at a sensible volume level. It'll be interesting to see how it compares.

[Barry]

Good post Dave.

Until I can borrow a sound pressure level meter I won't know for certain, but I suspect that I play my system quieter than most people. How are the iPhone apps calibrated? (Not that I have one!)

Just as there is a volume level, dependant on the type of music, where it 'all comes together', there is also a higher volume level where it 'starts to fall apart'. Laying between these two levels is a narrower band where the sound is at a realistic level: quieter and it sounds feeble; louder and it sounds wrong - even rediculous. The latter is often inadvertently demonstrated by exhibitors at audio shows.

I really should know this, but is the power power output from the amplifier proportional to the input voltage? In other word, say I have an amplifier that produces 100W for an input of 1V, if I reduce the input to 0.5V does the power output fall to 50W or to 25W?

Are audio amplifiers voltage controlled power sources, or power controlled power sources?

Regards

[HighFidelityGuy]

Thanks Barry,

I'm not exactly sure how the iPhone apps are calibrated or which one is the most accurate. I guess seen as the same mic will be used on every iPhone it shouldn't be too difficult for them to apply a simple algorithm to calculate the SPL. I Guess they will have compared against a separate calibrated SPL meter. I doubt any of the apps will be particularly accurate but they should be good enough for this.

As far as I understand it the output of an amp is dependent on the input but the exact figure will be dependent on the gain of the amp, not so much the wattage. So you'd need to know the gain figure and then I'm guessing there's an equation you can use to work out the output from a given input. Maths isn't my strong point, so perhaps somebody else can help on that bit.

As for your last question, I have no idea but I'll go for the first as a guess. :lol:


Good post Dave.

Until I can borrow a sound pressure level meter I won't know for certain, but I suspect that I play my system quieter than most people. How are the iPhone apps calibrated? (Not that I have one!)

Just as there is a volume level, dependant on the type of music, where it 'all comes together', there is also a higher volume level where it 'starts to fall apart'. Laying between these two levels is a narrower band where the sound is at a realistic level: quieter and it sounds feeble; louder and it sounds wrong - even rediculous. The latter is often inadvertently demonstrated by exhibitors at audio shows.

I really should know this, but is the power power output from the amplifier proportional to the input voltage? In other word, say I have an amplifier that produces 100W for an input of 1V, if I reduce the input to 0.5V does the power output fall to 50W or to 25W?

Are audio amplifiers voltage controlled power sources, or power controlled power sources?

Regards

[DSJR]

Volume levels in the 60 - 80db range mean less than a single Watt is being used on average...

Makes you think, doesn't it?

[Barry]

Hi Dave,

What I'm really asking is: if I halve the voltage to a power amplifier will I halve the power output? The actual gain doesn't matter. Should power amplifiers be regarded as voltage sources?

Perhaps someone else can answer.

Cheers

[jonners]

Barry -

The power output to a speaker is the voltage squared divided by the speaker resistance. Hence half as much volts gives a quarter of the power.

[HighFidelityGuy]

Hi Dave,

What I'm really asking is: if I halve the voltage to a power amplifier will I halve the power output? The actual gain doesn't matter. Should power amplifiers be regarded as voltage sources?

Perhaps someone else can answer.

Cheers


Barry -

The power output to a speaker is the voltage squared divided by the speaker resistance. Hence half as much volts gives a quarter of the power.

Well there you go, I thought it would be much more complected than that to work. :lol:

[HighFidelityGuy]

Volume levels in the 60 - 80db range mean less than a single Watt is being used on average...

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Hmm, interesting. That's something I've not heard before. Is there any way of measuring my amps output to see if this is actually the case?

Cheers. :)

[UV101]

If you look at some early valve amps for example QuadII's which I have experience of, thay only produce a few watts and there is no doubt they are plenty loud enough for most (when driving the right load!).

I had a listen as loud as I could bear(spelling????) in the car with the iPhone app running and it would be fair to say that 97db average for 1 track was painfull!!!

At home, the approximate SPL that everything starts to come together is about 85db with anything much over 90db starting to go off a bit!(peaks ok but ave not so good) In fact it would be fait to say my system is past its best when the ave if 90db.

As stated not sure how well its all calibrated out of the box but it'll do for making the point here. Seems to pretty much fit with whateveryone else is saying!

[jonners]

Well there you go, I thought it would be much more complected than that to work. :lol:

It is more complicated than that really, but it's near enough. ;)

As to your other question, if you measure the output of your amp to be 3V say, and you have 8 Ohm speakers then the power to the speaker will be just over 1 Watt; hence if you have speakers of say 89db sensitivity then the SPL at 1m distance will be 89dB. (Most makers overestimate the sensitivity figure though).

[Themis]

Volume levels in the 60 - 80db range mean less than a single Watt is being used on average...

Makes you think, doesn't it?
Glenn said once (about some well-known american amps) : "Have you ever thought about why they find it necessary to design an amplifier that produces enough current to power an arc welder?"

[electric beach]

So, to describe it, I would say louder than my wife would like, but still not quite loud enough for me most of the time - though I rarely "cane it" but there is definitely a tipping point where it all hangs together better.

So, that reply was about as much use as tits on a fish, but I didn't want to feel left out! :lol:

A misquote seems appropriate - "louder than the wife" would seem to be a minimum requirement :lol:

Agree about a certain volume bringing the dynamics together. I keep the level down a touch 'cos I'm conscious that I like it loud, but Val often tells me to turn it up because the dynamics are not there. Good Girl - see why I'm marrying her? :eyebrows:

I use small 4.5 inch long throw drivers and there's a point when they get in the zone and wake up, plus a point when the interaction with the room comes alive. I've never managed a setup that sounds great on tick over without being harsh when the wick is turned up. Conversely, as now, it sounds relaxed yet dynamic at realistic volume but a bit restrained at more moderate levels. I'm a now resigned that one needs to optimise a system to the preferred listening volume and accept the consequences.

Love the tits on a fish line! Reminds me of Ricky Gervais, questioning whether you would prefer a mermaid - or girlie bits with a fish head! :stalks::stalks:

[aquapiranha]

I like it loud occasionally. but then that is a bit rare. I am hoping this year to move over to the emerald isle where I will have a room to put the hifi in away from the 'main' lounge. Maybe then I will be able to listen a little louder more of the time. the speakers I am currently using appear to get better and better as the volume increases

[Barry]

Barry -

The power output to a speaker is the voltage squared divided by the speaker resistance. Hence half as much volts gives a quarter of the power.

That's what I thought. The calculations now run as follows:

Single speaker sensitivity (taken from HiFi Choice book on speakers): 82dB for 1W at 1m, thus 68dB at 5m (my listening position).

Typical power level 0.2W, thus 61dB, or 64dB for two speakers. However according to Dimitri need to allow -14dB for typical programme level, thus 50dB overall! This, according to John Crabbe in his book 'Hi-Fi in the Home', is the typical level in a large shop or average office.

I don't believe this figure of 50dB - it sounds louder to me, more like 70-80dB.

A possible source of error could be in the sensitivity figure of 82dB/W. 0dB is 1pW, therefore +82dB is 0.16mW, implying a speaker efficiency of 0.016%! This doesn't look right.

Regards

[HighFidelityGuy]

It is more complicated than that really, but it's near enough. ;)

As to your other question, if you measure the output of your amp to be 3V say, and you have 8 Ohm speakers then the power to the speaker will be just over 1 Watt; hence if you have speakers of say 89db sensitivity then the SPL at 1m distance will be 89dB. (Most makers overestimate the sensitivity figure though).

Thanks John, I'll see if I can do some testing. I'll be interested to know how much power my 550W monoblocks are putting out at my preferred listening level. My speakers are 91dB sensitivity, 6 Ohm nominal.

Picking up on the comment I made earlier about playing classical guitar music; I played a solo classical guitar piece at a realistic volume where I thought it sounded like the guitarist was in the room, not over-amplified. According to the SPL meter I got a peak reading of 76dB, with the average being in the high 60s to low 70s.

I also left the meter running while a sat in silence and drank a cup of tea, without slurping. ;) I did have my laptop running though which makes a bit of fan noise. That peaked at 47dB, with the average being around 44db. So that puts things into perspective a little. :)

[jonners]

I just did a few measurements with my RadioShack sound level meter. Listening at what I consider to be a fairly loud level (the neighbours are away) and at my usual listening distance of around 4m, the meter reads an average of about 80dB, peaking to around 86dB. (Que Alegria, John McLaughlin).
At that level, the input to the Celestion 15" bass drivers doesn't often go much above 2V - hence my speakers are not consuming much more than half a watt!

[HighFidelityGuy]

On the subject of measuring an amps output voltage; would you not need to be playing a 50Hz sine wave to get an accurate reading seen as most multimeters are optimised for measuring AC at 50Hz as in 230V mains? Surely playing music is going to result in wildly varying voltage readings? :scratch:

If that's the case then playing a 50Hz sine wave at 80dB+ is going to be rather unpleasant and could result in burnt voice coils if left running for more than a few seconds. :eek:

[MartinT]

I've just taken a measurement with my Radio Shack meter set to C-weighted and max (reading peaks) and am surprised to see that my music peaks at around 105dB. It doesn't sound too loud, in fact it sounds very comfortable in my listening room.

I should add that it averages at about 90dB or so.

[HighFidelityGuy]

I've just tested the output of one of my monoblocks witha 50Hz 0dB sine wave. I managed to get to 86dB at my listening position with is about 3M from the speakers. This was as loud as I dared take it. My speakers are rated at 91dB sensitivity and 6 Ohms nominal impedance, although they have an impedance range of 4-28 Ohms. I'm not sure what their impedance is at 50Hz.

At 86dB I read 4.2V on a fairly new Fluke 179 True RMS multimeter.
So if the power output to a speaker is the voltage squared divided by the speaker resistance and we say that my speakers are 6 Ohm, then I think that means my amp was producing 2.94 Watts. So we'll say 3 Watts.
I guess I need to work hard to make sure the other 547 watts are put to use, so I'm off to buy a couple of 18" bass bins and some Dubstep albums. :lolsign:

Seriously though, this has really opened my eyes. Perhaps we should start a new thread about amp ratings and design to discuss what's really necessary, unless this has already been covered?

[MartinT]

Dave, you're measuring steady-state. I think most informed opinion states that high power is required for dynamic headroom, in other words musical peaks. That's why average power used is so low but large current swings are still required for real music.

[jonners]

I agree with Martin. On Dave's system, a brief peak of 100dB is going to need nearly 100Watts - so maybe your amps are not such overkill after all Dave.

[HighFidelityGuy]

That's a fair point about transient peaks. A sine wave is never going to replicate that sort of behavior. I did later try playing some Prodigy at around 85dB and that kept the multimeter at around 0.5-0.7V. So that's only using about 0.08W and Prodigy isn't exactly sedate. Perhaps I'll try and measure some big sudden transients and see if they produce bigger voltage spikes.

Saying that I'll need 100W to make 100dB put's my mind at rest a little but I doubt I'll often manage that. I've never managed to get my SPL meter above 89dB so far, even with both my 250W 10" subs running at the same time. So I do feel that my amps are possibly a little overkill. I did kind of think that when I bought them and I never imagined that I'd use their full output. I wanted amps that had plenty of headroom and would handle even the biggest most difficult speakers but I thought playing music at my preferred listening level would require at least 200W with my speakers. It really makes you think. :hmm:
I wish I understood more about amplifier design so I could understand what is actually required to run speakers properly. I'm guessing it's all about finding the right balance of compromises. Does anyone know of any good but easy to understand books on the subject? :)