DAC Advice

[Name]

Hello each, I'm hoping you fine folk can give me some guidance.

I currently have a Micromega Duo BS2 DAC. It is working off of a Cyrus CD Transport and to these ears, it is doing a pretty good job.

However... It's all but coming up to vintage status now and I'm pretty sure that in the years since this bad boy was built, technology
must have moved on, I feel I'm probably missing something. There is quite a fan club out there for these units and I rarely have found
a bad word against them. I think they were quite high end when they first came out and some people out there seem to think that a
similar upgraded level would cost more than my bank manager is likely to countenance these days. Is that the case?

I'm never sure if that's how it works. Law of diminishing returns and all that.

I considered the Roksan Kandy 3 DAC, which is going for about 400 quid for some reason, even though it's a £1200 machine. But it's
built like Sizewell B and I just don't have the room. Also like the look of the Audiolab M Dac + and the Rega DAC R. But I guess my
question is, will I notice any fundamental difference for my hard earn't?

All advice/opinion gratefully received.

M

[CageyH]

If you are happy with the sound, why change it?

If you are inquisitive, find a friendly dealer to see if they will do a home loan?
Some manufacturers also do a 30 day money back trial period so you can try a different DAC in your system.

[jandl100]

After owning many DACs over the years up to several £k rrp I have now settled on a Topping D30. It costs £90 from Amazon. It's the best DAC I have owned - the only DAC I've heard in my system that might better it was a $5k Lampizator Level 4.
The levels of clarity and resolution on offer from the Topping are astonishing - but it might seem a bit too 'clean' after the vintage BS2.

I also added a £50 Chinese linear PSU to the D30 to help it along a bit further.

[StanleyB]

The Caiman SEG with Dorado has moved things to the next level as far as sound quality is concerned. I doubt that any of the other DACs suggested come anywhere close to it, let alone surpass it.

[struth]

Never tried a seg so cant comment on it, far less with the dorado(which on face of it sounds like a genius idea),...
but I do love my XS dac/pre. it gives me 2 outputs , 2 analogue inputs and 3 digi inputs, plus a decent headphone amp. but i think there are different makers/versions and quality control..

Some day I will maybe get a listen to a seg.... I liked my old Beresford dac, and my berseford switch box. Think I had a pre as well but name escapes me.
You can do a lot worse than Stan's stuff and service is second to none.

[Name]

If you are happy with the sound, why change it?

If you are inquisitive, find a friendly dealer to see if they will do a home loan?
Some manufacturers also do a 30 day money back trial period so you can try a different DAC in your system.

Well I think my thought process is that, yes I like what I have, but I'd like better or at least explore the possibilities.
I can't believe that technology hasn't improved in the last 20 odd years so thought I'd give it a go.

I could of course go to my local Hifi dealer and listen to something, but they don't have my components or my room or
my furniture, so I think that would be futile. I may ask of they will let me take one at home or as you say, the 30 day return
policy thing. My local dealer (Near Ipswich) is a tad out of my league generally. I was drooling over a £23k set of speakers
last week, which he sells with an amp that costs £121k. Maybe I'll trot down t Audio T.

[Name]

After owning many DACs over the years up to several £k rrp I have now settled on a Topping D30. It costs £90 from Amazon. It's the best DAC I have owned - the only DAC I've heard in my system that might better it was a $5k Lampizator Level 4.
The levels of clarity and resolution on offer from the Topping are astonishing - but it might seem a bit too 'clean' after the vintage BS2.

I also added a £50 Chinese linear PSU to the D30 to help it along a bit further.

I don't know of Topping sir, but your glowing review will cause me to do some research toot sweet. Certainly at that price. Thank you.

[Bigman80]

The Caiman SEG with Dorado has moved things to the next level as far as sound quality is concerned. I doubt that any of the other DACs suggested come anywhere close to it, let alone surpass it.Fighting talk Stan. I like that.

[Name]

The Caiman SEG with Dorado has moved things to the next level as far as sound quality is concerned. I doubt that any of the other DACs suggested come anywhere close to it, let alone surpass it.

I've just looked on the website sir. Can such quality be achieved at such a price? It seems too good to be true! I shall explore further. Thank you.

[jandl100]

Fair do's - the Beresford SEG is an excellent DAC and would be on my list if I were in Michael's shoes. I've not heard the latest upgrades and that may well change things beyond my own experience.
All the DACs sound different anyway - try a few at home on trial and see what if any ticks your personal boxes. :)

[bumpy]

Topping D30. It costs £90 from Amazon. It's the best DAC I have owned - the only DAC I've heard in my system that might better it was a $5k Lampizator Level 4.


I think, kind Sir, you may have over sold it.

[jandl100]

I think, kind Sir, you may have over sold it.

I don't.
I'm just speaking from my own experience.
For me the Topping D30 really is that good.
Mind you, it's on my 'resting' shelf at the moment as I am enjoying my Wadia DAC/amp all-in-1 for the nonce as the whole bundle makes great synergy with my Podium speakers. ;)

[Name]

Fair do's - the Beresford SEG is an excellent DAC and would be on my list if I were in Michael's shoes. I've not heard the latest upgrades and that may well change things beyond my own experience.
All the DACs sound different anyway - try a few at home on trial and see what if any ticks your personal boxes. :)

Well I like the Micromega as it gives a more analogue sound, which their kit was renowned for back in the day. But maybe that isn't such an issue
with the upgrade in technology in the time since. I imagine the early versions could have sounded a tad brittle. My first CD player in the 80's was a
NAD and then I moved on to a Micromega Stage, which I later augmented with the DAC. Utterly transformed the sound.

[bumpy]

I don't.
I'm just speaking from my own experience.

I think you may need to get out more :)

[jandl100]

I think you may need to get out more :)

Perhaps you do.
Do you have SW1X cornflakes for breakfast? You seem to have everything else from them. :D

[CageyH]

The Caiman SEG with Dorado has moved things to the next level as far as sound quality is concerned. I doubt that any of the other DACs suggested come anywhere close to it, let alone surpass it.

I intend to get a Dorado for my SEG soon, as to be honest I am very slightly underwhelmed by my SEG at the moment.
I am in the minority for sure, as the internet is full of glowing reviews of the SEG. I do love the flexibility and number of inputs of the SEG though. Mr Beresford has excellent customer service and he offers a 30 day trial.

If I were in the OPs shoes, I would be tempted to try a cheap Chinese DAC as well. If you are running limited sources, it may well be enough.

Are you just running the CD transport through the DAC, or will you be streaming etc.?

[Bigman80]

I intend to get a Dorado for my SEG soon, as to be honest I am very slightly underwhelmed by my SEG at the moment.
I am in the minority for sure, as the internet is full of glowing reviews of the SEG. I do love the flexibility and number of inputs of the SEG though. Mr Beresford has excellent customer service and he offers a 30 day trial.

If I were in the OPs shoes, I would be tempted to try a cheap Chinese DAC as well. If you are running limited sources, it may well be enough.

Are you just running the CD transport through the DAC, or will you be streaming etc.?You're not alone there, Kevin. I recent got a Caimen II here and to be honest, I just didn't get where all the plaudits for it had come from. The XiangSheng DAC01 I had here was, in my opinion, ahead by a length. However, Mr Firebottle has informed me that his new "clock" (whatever that is) has pushed the Caiman to a new level.

Now, I will say this, the first time I heard it, the wrong voltage was used via a linear PSU and It was awful but not it's fault at all. I do think that the first impression may have clouded my further feelings on it. We didn't realise it was the wrong voltage at first btw.

We then tried it with the supplied PSU and it was far better. Trouble is it was up against a Bel Canto DAC which really took me by surprise. It was excellent and by far the best DAC I have heard. That's not to say I've heard many.

I'd give the Caimen SEG and fancy supply thing another shot because I'm sure it's got to be better than I thought. I'd like to give one a really serious listen before deciding what I thought of it. I'd also not listen to any vinyl before hand because any DAC would struggle to beat that.

[Name]

I intend to get a Dorado for my SEG soon, as to be honest I am very slightly underwhelmed by my SEG at the moment.
I am in the minority for sure, as the internet is full of glowing reviews of the SEG. I do love the flexibility and number of inputs of the SEG though. Mr Beresford has excellent customer service and he offers a 30 day trial.

If I were in the OPs shoes, I would be tempted to try a cheap Chinese DAC as well. If you are running limited sources, it may well be enough.

Are you just running the CD transport through the DAC, or will you be streaming etc.?

I'll mainly run the CD transport and maybe a DVD player. Not streaming or Flac files etc. I'm a bit of a traditionalist in my music collection. I like a physical presence.

[JohnG]

Hi Micheal
As a alternative thought process, how about looking into a good quality linear power supply.
This should have the makings to improve things and also can be used on any further devices that are to be trialed if required.

[Name]

Thanks for your input everyone. Does anyone have any experience of Young Dacs?

Any thoughts?

[Name]

That sounds like a plan John. Any suggestions on type or brand?

[bumpy]

Perhaps you do.
Do you have SW1X cornflakes for breakfast? You seem to have everything else from them. :D

As Oscar Wilde once said "I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best."

[jandl100]

Thanks for your input everyone. Does anyone have any experience of Young Dacs?

Any thoughts?

Young DACs get a somewhat mixed reception here.
Some folks love them. Others, like me, find them quite uninspiring and ordinary.

[Bigman80]

Young DACs get a somewhat mixed reception here.
Some folks love them. Others, like me, find them quite uninspiring and ordinary.I had a M2TECH Young DAC and thought it was very good. Treble was a bit lively but it's lack of compatibility with Windows 10 made it redundant here.

Other than that, for £350 it was a really good DAC.

[JohnG]

I am moving along methodically building a digital system, and starting to attempt to become fluent in the options/methods available.
This is a field that can eat funds just trying to build a quality user interface, with no guarantee of SQ.
There are lots of good guidelines being expressed in recent threads.
The improvement of a power supply, is usually seen as a basic method to upgrade many devices.
A linear power supply for a digital source, is a proven device that will improve a performance, to what extent I can't say. I am not aware of anybody discarding a upgraded power supply due to not improving a device, especially a linear type.
I have recently been in communication with two separate individuals, both working on improving two different devices through concentrating on the design of the power supply. The designs are now functioning devices, and the reports on the overall improvement on the performance are very positive.
Think of having a off board linear power supply like a accessory that once bought, it can be matched with different devices, even a Laptop will benefit from it, if using it as a source to listen you tube or other performances on the HiFi.
As for models to select, There is a vast market, from LDA to Chinese Manufactured.
I'm sure after some further investigations a model can be found at a price that is worth a trial.

[Haselsh1]

I changed over from a Caiman to an M-DAC and I am now happy with the sounds it has to offer. I have had the M-DAC for around two years and see no reason to change it. I use it with a Cambridge CXC transport.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I am moving along methodically building a digital system, and starting to attempt to become fluent in the options/methods available.
This is a field that can eat funds just trying to build a quality user interface, with no guarantee of SQ.
There are lots of good guidelines being expressed in recent threads.
The improvement of a power supply, is usually seen as a basic method to upgrade many devices.
A linear power supply for a digital source, is a proven device that will improve a performance, to what extent I can't say. I am not aware of anybody discarding a upgraded power supply due to not improving a device, especially a linear type.
I have recently been in communication with two separate individuals, both working on improving two different devices through concentrating on the design of the power supply. The designs are now functioning devices, and the reports on the overall improvement on the performance are very positive.
Think of having a off board linear power supply like a accessory that once bought, it can be matched with different devices, even a Laptop will benefit from it, if using it as a source to listen you tube or other performances on the HiFi.
As for models to select, There is a vast market, from LDA to Chinese Manufactured.
I'm sure after some further investigations a model can be found at a price that is worth a trial.

There is a lot more certainty with saying one supply is better than another, when you have the devices schematic in front of you. A great resource for this is hiFi engine https://www.hifiengine.com/
Most power supplies resort to fixed voltage regulators typically the 78xx or 79xx , these are horrible for audio , but fine for washing machines. Why are they horrible in audio circuits is because of internal resistance
between output and ground. So study schematics first to give yourself understanding of the choices made by manufacturers. i would recommend study into mosfets and fets , noting the three ways these can be connected
namely common drain, common source, and common gate.

[StanleyB]

Most power supplies resort to fixed voltage regulators typically the 78xx or 79xx , these are horrible for audio , but fine for washing machines. Why are they horrible in audio circuits is because of internal resistance
between output and ground.
That's a very good point, which is why I don't use them in my DACs. I did use one in my headphone amp, but ended up removing it all together because of the noise from it.

[JohnG]

Below is a link to a build, I am considering to have built.
This could be a good time to receive a few comments on the circuitry.

https://www.element14.com/community/groups/open-source-hardware/blog/2017/10/29/building-a-linear-power-supply-module

[Light Dependant Resistor]

In the comments section , mention is made of the LT4320. These are available in a DIP8 package, and from my experience of
building at least 7 of them, they are excellent. https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/4320fb.pdf

Instead of diodes be it schottky types or others, n channel mosfets are used for switching. The advantage being a gate terminal
designating when the device turns on, as well as generally superior characteristics of mosfets to diodes.

As for the rest of the schematic, package regulator ic;s ( noting not 78xx and 79xx ) are just OK, when they contain a needed
characteristic, for instance the Ref 02 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ref02.pdf, Pin 3 has some extremely good features.
Generally you want instead to design around discrete devices, with mosfets being at the top of the list, and make note of
common gate connection, and capacitance multiplication. The advantage with common gate is high bandwidth.

Think of current regulation rather than voltage regulation, and achieving voltage stability from the load - not just shunting voltage
and current for its own sake... or because you can.

[Name]

I am moving along methodically building a digital system, and starting to attempt to become fluent in the options/methods available.
This is a field that can eat funds just trying to build a quality user interface, with no guarantee of SQ.
There are lots of good guidelines being expressed in recent threads.
The improvement of a power supply, is usually seen as a basic method to upgrade many devices.
A linear power supply for a digital source, is a proven device that will improve a performance, to what extent I can't say. I am not aware of anybody discarding a upgraded power supply due to not improving a device, especially a linear type.
I have recently been in communication with two separate individuals, both working on improving two different devices through concentrating on the design of the power supply. The designs are now functioning devices, and the reports on the overall improvement on the performance are very positive.
Think of having a off board linear power supply like a accessory that once bought, it can be matched with different devices, even a Laptop will benefit from it, if using it as a source to listen you tube or other performances on the HiFi.
As for models to select, There is a vast market, from LDA to Chinese Manufactured.
I'm sure after some further investigations a model can be found at a price that is worth a trial.

Cheers John, that's very kind of you to explain sir.

[Name]

It's strange isn't it. If you read reviews one person will love it and another hate it. Which I get. They're not listening to it in the same conditions or same rig. Makes reviews almost worthless really. It's why I rarely listen to kit in the shop. Totally. Different set up to my music room at home.

[CageyH]

Ut listening in a shop will give you an idea of what to expect. It is only at home you really know if you like it or not.

[Yomanze]

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