Newbie after advice on budget TT

[Gaz]

Hi Guys
I joined yesterday & am thinking of getting back into vinyl.

My last TT was a Garrard Sp25 and that was probably 20 years ago, I'm using a Pioneer A656 Reference amp, which has MM & MC phono inputs and Quadral Rondo Phonologue speakers.

My record collection is mostly from the 70s/80s and after being stored in the loft for 20 years may not be in great condition. As the records may possibly be unplayable I'm not looking to spend a lot on a turntable, somewhere around £100 - 150. As my wife is more concerned with aesthetics than sound it must also look "nice"

I've been thinking along the lines of Pioneer PL12D or Dual CS505?

Anything else I should consider?

Thanks

[Stryder5]

Get a Knosti manual record cleaning machine first about £50 new and clean your records first.

My records had been in the loft a similar amount of time, cleaned up beautifully and played well. Some even had mould on them.

Gary


Hi Guys
I joined yesterday & am thinking of getting back into vinyl.

My last TT was a Garrard Sp25 and that was probably 20 years ago, I'm using a Pioneer A656 Reference amp, which has MM & MC phono inputs and Quadral Rondo Phonologue speakers.

My record collection is mostly from the 70s/80s and after being stored in the loft for 20 years may not be in great condition. As the records may possibly be unplayable I'm not looking to spend a lot on a turntable, somewhere around £100 - 150. As my wife is more concerned with aesthetics than sound it must also look "nice"

I've been thinking along the lines of Pioneer PL12D or Dual CS505?

Anything else I should consider?

Thanks

[Stryder5]

Think about a modern Project turntable, for your budget maybe a better bet, will get you on the vinyl ladder and see where you go from there.

Good hunting.

Gary

[AJSki2fly]

Think about a modern Project turntable, for your budget maybe a better bet, will get you on the vinyl ladder and see where you go from there.

Good hunting.

Gary

I would agree aim for at least £150-200.

If you are able to go higher and can find one then a Pro-Ject Xperience 2 Pack 2nd hand in good condition is a very good option. The generally came with an Ortofon Red cartridge occasionally a Blue if the customer upgraded. I sold mine a couple of years ago for £500 when I upgrade, I found it an excellent TT, very detailed and good sound, very good value for money. The new incarnation of it is about £999.

[STD305M]

I would agree aim for at least £150-200.

If you are able to go higher and can find one then a Pro-Ject Xperience 2 Pack 2nd hand in good condition is a very good option. The generally came with an Ortofon Red cartridge occasionally a Blue if the customer upgraded. I sold mine a couple of years ago for £500 when I upgrade, I found it an excellent TT, very detailed and good sound, very good value for money. The new incarnation of it is about £999.

It a ptoject 2experience sb dc and is now£1,100
Comes fitted with ortofon 2m silver

If your budget can streatch the project elemental is available for around £175 if you shop around

Steve

[Gaz]

Thanks for the advice guys

Had a quick browse on Ebay, are Project Debut and Elemental any good? There seem to be lots of them for sale, is that because they're not great?

[AJSki2fly]

It a ptoject 2experience sb dc and is now£1,100
Comes fitted with ortofon 2m silver

If your budget can streatch the project elemental is available for around £175 if you shop around

Steve

Check this out https://www.richersounds.com/hi-fi/turntables/project-2xperience-dc-acryl.html

[STD305M]

Still 5 times the guy's budget

Not sure I'd want a plastic turntable
The wood version is £1,100

[Gaz]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-Ject-Elemental-Turntable-Red-Very-Good-Conditions/123406416026?epid=177001468&hash=item1cbb98789a:g:eDUAAOSwDkBbt1Kq:rk:9:pf:0

States the "cartridge needle" is broken, I would imagine worst case scenario this may mean a new cartridge?

If so what would be a good replacement & is it an easy procedure to change it?

[STD305M]

Nice turntable for the money
Not expensive to replace the cartridge

[Stryder5]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-Ject-Elemental-Turntable-Red-Very-Good-Conditions/123406416026?epid=177001468&hash=item1cbb98789a:g:eDUAAOSwDkBbt1Kq:rk:9:pf:0

States the "cartridge needle" is broken, I would imagine worst case scenario this may mean a new cartridge?

If so what would be a good replacement & is it an easy procedure to change it?

If you did go for something like this and need a replacement cartridge I have a Rega Carbon that you can have, it's probably had 50 hours use, so barely run in, you're welcome to it foc.

Easy to change but delicate, leave the stylus guard on. Two bolts and 4 wires.

Needs a bit of a setup though, alignment (you can get a stylus alignment protractor easily) and the rough tracking weight is on the tonearm dial.

Talking you through it is easy.

Gary

[STD305M]

Hi
You could just get a replacement stylus and slide it on and would cost no more than £25quid or replace the whole cart for a better cartridge
Depends on what you want to spend

Steve

[Manicatel]

Thanks for the advice guys

Had a quick browse on Ebay, are Project Debut and Elemental any good? There seem to be lots of them for sale, is that because they're not great?
Buying a tt 2nd hand via eBay etc does carry some degree of risk, especially if you are new to tt’s.
Not much wrong with something like a project debut carbon for the money. It comes as standard with an ortofon 2m Red cart which sells for £90 on its own. I would guess that people dip their toe into the vinyl world with a debut carbon & then decide they want to upgrade a couple of years later.
As the debut carbon has a better (carbon fibre) arm & the 2m red cart, I would choose that over the elemental, which has a lower quality arm & cart. Don’t think it came with a lid either, iirc.

[STD305M]

Buying a tt 2nd hand via eBay etc does carry some degree of risk, especially if you are new to tt’s.
Not much wrong with something like a project debut carbon for the money. It comes as standard with an ortofon 2m Red cart which sells for £90 on its own. I would guess that people dip their toe into the vinyl world with a debut carbon & then decide they want to upgrade a couple of years later.
As the debut carbon has a better (carbon fibre) arm & the 2m red cart, I would choose that over the elemental, which has a lower quality arm & cart. Don’t think it came with a lid either, iirc.

Plus 1+

[hifi_dave]

I've had many turntables bought s/hand and from E-Bay in to me for service and set up. Some have been OK and doable but some have been trashed by previous owners and/or in transit.

The latest was a TD160 with SME Series III arm and cartridge, just plonked in a box with some bubble. In transit the arm was completely smashed and totally useless. the turntable was OK but looked like it had a tough life and not worth the money despite being described as "immaculate"...:eek:

Often, the problem is that the seller doesn't know anything about turntables, having bought it from a car boot sale, charity shop or it's their Dad's. I've had several in where the turntable has been sent in a box with the platter in situ, just held in place by some sticky tape wrapped around it and the plinth. Needless to say, this causes quite a lot of damage.

[Gaz]

Thanks for all the advice guys, and thanks to Gary for the kind offer of the cartridge.

The potential for damage in transit isn't something, although it's obvious when pointed out, I'd considered so I might wait until something comes up locally so that I can check it over (as best I can) and transport it myself.

[Firebottle]

Hi Gaz,

I visited Desirable Vinyl on Friday in Evesham and bought some vinyl. He has a turntable for sale, I think he said about £50, didn't look closely but appeared in good condition.
If this isn't too far from you might be worth a look, his number is 07821 1825twoone, ask for Jason.

:cool:

[Gaz]

Sorry to keep on but this looks a good bet

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/dual-cs505-1-semi-automatic-turntable/1316147264

Or would the Project ones mentioned earlier be worth waiting for?

[Barry]

Sorry to keep on but this looks a good bet

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/dual-cs505-1-semi-automatic-turntable/1316147264

Or would the Project ones mentioned earlier be worth waiting for?

Dual turntables do have a good reputation. Dave (DSJR) of this parish is pretty knowledgable and familiar with them: he uses a Dual TT himself. If he doesn't see this thread ask for his opinion via a PM.

£45 look to me to be bit of a steal for an eminently suitable beginner's deck. Again ask Dave for his opinion of the arm and if it can take a better (more expensive) cartridge.

[Manicatel]

Sorry to keep on but this looks a good bet

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/dual-cs505-1-semi-automatic-turntable/1316147264

Or would the Project ones mentioned earlier be worth waiting for?
Apples & Oranges.
You’re comparing a £45, 30+ year old semi auto TT, albeit part refurb’d with a budget old cart, & non-standard drive belt with a Pro-Ject which would only be a few years old & with a much better arm & cart, & probably at least twice the cost.
The Dual motor, pulley, bearing etc is all 30+ years old.
Don’t get me wrong, my 1st proper TT was exactly that one, a 505-1 & it brings back good memories.
However, I seriously doubt it would stack up well to a Debut Carbon.

[walpurgis]

I'd sooner have a Pioneer PL-12D than any of the Dual 505 models or a budget Pro-Ject and as you were considering one, what about the nice example on sale here: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?60677-FS-Pioneer-PL-12D-Shure-M75ED-Serviced It even comes with its original packing, so should arrive in one piece.

They are an excellent introduction into record playing equipment and dead reliable.

[AJSki2fly]

Apples & Oranges.
You’re comparing a £45, 30+ year old semi auto TT, albeit part refurb’d with a budget old cart, & non-standard drive belt with a Pro-Ject which would only be a few years old & with a much better arm & cart, & probably at least twice the cost.
The Dual motor, pulley, bearing etc is all 30+ years old.
Don’t get me wrong, my 1st proper TT was exactly that one, a 505-1 & it brings back good memories.
However, I seriously doubt it would stack up well to a Debut Carbon.

I think you make a very good point, £50-100 on a secondhand 30 year old TT against a 1-2 year old pro-ject then I’d put my money into the pro-ject, it’s unlikely to have as high mileage as an old Dual, and will probably perform better.

[struth]

Think I said b4 I had a project debut carbon speedbox nearly new. Was a nice little deck and sure most would like it's clean lines etc. Sound was remarkably good for the cash and upgrading the cart(usually a red) to a better quality will get returns. This can be done later tho and a red will be fine for starting with

[graham67]

Having owned a pl12d and a dual 510 similar to 505, I consider the pl-12d to be sonically better with a generous pacey sound perfect for 70/80s LPs. It was fitted with a ortofon F15E ii and tbh I was amazed how good it sounded fed into my main system sitting atop an Townshend air suspended stand. Sure not as good as a fully sorted 401 rig, but not the night and day gap obvious with the Dual.

One big caveat, if you have springy floors and cannot wall mount, dont even consider either deck as needle bounce from footfall will ruin the experience. The pl12d is very bouncy as, unless replaced, the foam inside the springs will have rotted after 40 years.

[montesquieu]

I've had many turntables bought s/hand and from E-Bay in to me for service and set up. Some have been OK and doable but some have been trashed by previous owners and/or in transit.

The latest was a TD160 with SME Series III arm and cartridge, just plonked in a box with some bubble. In transit the arm was completely smashed and totally useless. the turntable was OK but looked like it had a tough life and not worth the money despite being described as "immaculate"...:eek:

Often, the problem is that the seller doesn't know anything about turntables, having bought it from a car boot sale, charity shop or it's their Dad's. I've had several in where the turntable has been sent in a box with the platter in situ, just held in place by some sticky tape wrapped around it and the plinth. Needless to say, this causes quite a lot of damage.

+1 I've had a couple of ebay purchased turntables arrived smashed up despite offering packing advice after purchase. To the point where I would only buy there if I could collect. Lenco L75 literally bubble wrapped around the perspex cover, platter arm and cartridge left to flap around, and a Telefunken S600 purchased from Germany purely for the Ortofon tonearm arrived with the arm mangled after the perspex cover shattered.

[montesquieu]

Having owned a pl12d and a dual 510 similar to 505, I consider the pl-12d to be sonically better with a generous pacey sound perfect for 70/80s LPs. It was fitted with a ortofon F15E ii and tbh I was amazed how good it sounded fed into my main system sitting atop an Townshend air suspended stand. Sure not as good as a fully sorted 401 rig, but not the night and day gap obvious with the Dual.

One big caveat, if you have springy floors and cannot wall mount, dont even consider either deck as needle bounce from footfall will ruin the experience. The pl12d is very bouncy as, unless replaced, the foam inside the springs will have rotted after 40 years.

I heard a PL12 that had had an Audio Origami rewire on the arm, extra damping on the plinth, and the suspension fettled as you suggest Graham, and it sounded surprisingly good!

[graham67]

Hi tom, not surprised that an arm rewire would reap dividends. The stock arm is very low friction and apart from plastic base seems to be decent quality. After the fuss free solidity of an idler, personally i wouldn't go back to a springy deck, but for the money the pl-12d gives a decent taste of what is good in vinyl.

[tlscapital]

...After the fuss free solidity of an idler, personally i wouldn't go back to a springy deck, but for the money the pl-12d gives a decent taste of what is good in vinyl.

Guess you guys are talking of the 'LP12' (as opposed to the "PL12"). Coming from the "fuss free" world of the sturdy decks with my previously dream to have; a Garrard 301 (never owned though) I grew to love and understand my "springy" humble Thorens TD14x-16x hybrid now totally tweaked be me. since I couldn't do without a suspended sub-chassis TT. Such "airy" sound is addictive I find.

[walpurgis]

Guess you guys are talking of the 'LP12' (as opposed to the "PL12")

No. We have definitely been discussing the Pioneer PL-12D. The LP12 does not meet the £100 to £150 requirement stated in the OP.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2882vb4.png

[Yomanze]

Second hand Rega P1?

[tlscapital]

No. We have definitely been discussing the Pioneer PL-12D. The LP12 does not meet the £100 to £150 requirement stated in the OP. Oh-Ah ! Oh well, sorry just don't mind me then... :whistle:

[Jac Hawk]

Get a Knosti manual record cleaning machine first about £50 new and clean your records first.

My records had been in the loft a similar amount of time, cleaned up beautifully and played well. Some even had mould on them.

Gary

Good advice, if you're on a budget the Knosti will do a very good job of getting your vinyl back into a playable state, then i'd suggest a Rega there's plenty on ebay so you get a lot for your money and there are also a whole load of easy to install upgrades you can do yourself without breaking the bank. if you do go down the Rega path then i'd suggest staying clear of the decks with the S shape RB200 arm as the anti skate will be fooked on it, i'd also recommend an Ortofon VMS 20 mk2 as a good cart match with any of the Rega arms.

[steve-z]

If you can stretch your budget a bit (£250) then a Rega Planar 1, or stretch it a little further to one of these
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181021/bc69853269e52ab830e6052c0acf6286.jpg
The Audio Technica ATLP5, I’ve had mine for about 6 weeks and it’s excellent for the money, it has a good sounding phono stage built in and the AT95EX cartridge is a little gem, £289. It’s direct drive so no belt to contend with. It also has a USB output so you can digitise your vinyl. It’s a very classy looking and great sounding turntable so I’m sure your wife would approve [emoji846]


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[Gaz]

Is this any good?

https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/sherwood-turntable/1318435734

It's local to me so I can inspect it first & transport it myself.
I remember Richer Sounds did lots of Sherwood stuff years ago but no idea if they're any good?

On one hand it's only £50, on the other it's £50 towards something better.

[Dr Winston O Boogie]

Loads on FB here:

Audiophiles UK. Second Hand Hi-Fi and Music