View Full Version : Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 12:19
It's arrived!!! A day late due to Royal Mail technical issues (M6 crash causing huge delays)
More to followhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/67cdc49b545e091dd59cae38325fed08.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/8fcb6f07b2a779ab8e5af085cdc1ab0d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/a90bc26e578cecdaf469b5cdec7d436f.jpg
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Looks well suited mate, how are you liking it so far?
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 12:55
Looks well suited mate, how are you liking it so far?I expected it to be a bit livelier than the Kontrapunkt b, but it's not coming across that way. It's kind of the same although the there is an openness which is a little eye opening. It's definitely a top level cartridge but I need to fine tune the setup. Im hoping to get a bit more authority and weight in the sound so checking the setup and just noticed the tail is a little down. Everything else is pretty much as close as can be gotten.
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Glad you've got it up and running! Bit busy just now, but....*Before* arriving at any conclusions, put it in the MG-10 headshell I've provided, as I'm not a big fan of the ones with the rubber strips (which I see you've removed, lol).
Trust me, that will make a difference! Not sure whether you'll prefer it or not, but it *will* be different.
Marco.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 13:22
Glad you've got it up and running! Bit busy just now, but....*Before* arriving at any conclusions, put it in the MG-10 headshell I've provided, as I'm not a big fan of the ones with the rubber strips (which I see you've removed, lol).
Trust me, that will make a difference! Not sure whether you'll prefer it or not, but it *will* be different.
Marco.I tried that one first. I felt it was lacking bottom end, put this one on and the bottom end returned. Whether it's supposed to be there or not Is a completely different matter [emoji23][emoji23]
Setup was perfect in that on too, just refined this ones setuo and it's singing nicely. I've got a third head shell to try too.
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No worries, mate. Whatever works, works. Also, don't be afraid to track it right up to 1.5g, if you feel that the sound needs a little more 'solidity'. Plus, give it plenty of use because in reality the cartridge is probably hardly run in, as I was mostly using my 103s and SPU at the time, so it's virtually new!:)
Marco.
Ali Tait
10-10-2018, 14:32
Yep, track at the heavier end if you feel it’s a bit bass light.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 14:56
No worries, mate. Whatever works, works. Also, don't be afraid to track it right up to 1.5g, if you feel that the sound needs a little more 'solidity'. Plus, give it plenty of use because in reality it probably hardly run in, as I was mostly using my 103s and SPU at the time, so it's virtually new!:)
Marco.I'll give the headshell another run out mate. I just know what to expect from the one I have. When I'm familiar with the cartridge I'll plum your headshell back in and see what happens
Tracking at 1.5g now and it's better balanced. Top end was a little high in the mix just. More natural now.
What I am noticing is how the sound is projecting into the room. It's also doing this this strange thing where I think I'm hearing things from the other room or from outside. I'm not, it's the track and nuances that are being collected in the track. It's a strange sensation.
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Yesh, it's called resolution!:eyebrows:;)
That's what the DL-S1 positively excels at: digging deep into recordings and unearthing/teasing out a wealth of detail that's in those grooves (familiar ones) you probably haven't heard before, and enveloping the subsequent musical delivery in a cavernously wide soundstage:)
Marco.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 15:37
Yesh, it's called resolution!:eyebrows:;)
That's what the DL-S1 positively excels at: digging deep into recordings and unearthing/teasing out a wealth of detail that's in those grooves (familiar ones) you probably haven't heard before, and enveloping the subsequent musical delivery in a cavernously wide soundstage:)
Marco.It is cavernously wide. What I'm not getting yet is the depth. It's either unavailable or the cartridge is a more forward than the Ortofon in presentation.
The Setup is now as good as I can get it, which is spot on! Only thing to tweak is VTA. Currently it's perfect so I'm reluctant to mess too much plus it sounds very very good.
I'll give this a run for a couple of days and then put the Kb back in and see what's happening.
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It's not a bass monster IMO. It delivers high resolution in a natural, unforced manner.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 16:09
It's not a bass monster IMO. It delivers high resolution in a natural, unforced manner.No it's definitely not a Bass monster. It does have bass though, just not the quantity I'm used to. Doesn't make it a bad cartridge!!
Lots here to rave about. I will too when I have had a lot of listening to it.
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It's not a bass monster IMO. It delivers high resolution in a natural, unforced manner.
Spot on, Geoff. It's the cultured and more refined cousin of the DL-103, which *is* a bass monster. Both Denons have their respective strengths, and which one you enjoy most will largely depend on the music and/or recordings you listen to.
Plus, if you use the DL-S1 on the right turntable/arm, both of which intrinsically have no shortage of bass, and through a phono stage with a goodly dose of 'grunt', you're unlikely to find it lacking in the lower registers.
In comparison with most Ortofon MCs, which tend to superimpose their bass onto every recording, whether it should be there or not (a bit like some speakers do, which are purported as having good bass, but simply exaggerate it), the DL-S1 could be perceived as bass-light. It isn't; it's just more accurate and natural/unforced in its delivery of low frequencies.
It's fundamentally a very 'honest' sounding cartridge, and one for purists who appreciate some of its remarkable talents.
It tracks like a demon and cruises over 'difficult' material that some rather more expensive cartridges struggle with, and has one of the most lucid/liquid sounding midranges out with of a Decca, with similar levels of dynamic 'attack'. Plus, one of the most open and sweet sounding top-ends I've ever heard from a cartridge, married to an uncanny ability to unearth previously unheard information in familiar recordings, which can at times be rather unnerving....
At least that's how it sounded in my system, so I hope that Ollie's getting a nice slab of that, too!:cool:
Marco.
thats the main reason i didnt like the 103m,the 103sa did the bass and left the 103m sounding top heavy and thin,as you put it at the time marco,they are yin and yang
Yup, although a 103M, in the right system, shouldn't sound bright or thin, but it certainly won't have the low-end wallop of a DL-103, 'SA' or otherwise.
Marco.
RobbieGong
10-10-2018, 17:53
Spot on, Geoff. It's the cultured and more refined cousin of the DL-103, which *is* a bass monster. Both Denons have their respective strengths, and which one you enjoy most will largely depend on the music and/or recordings you listen to.
Plus, if you use the DL-S1 on the right turntable/arm, both of which intrinsically have no shortage of bass, and through a phono stage with a goodly dose of 'grunt', you're unlikely to find it lacking in the lower registers.
In comparison with most Ortofon MCs, which tend to superimpose their bass onto every recording, whether it should be there or not (a bit like some speakers do, which are purported as having good bass, but simply exaggerate it), the DL-S1 could be perceived as bass-light. It isn't; it's just more accurate and natural/unforced in its delivery of low frequencies.
It's fundamentally a very 'honest' sounding cartridge, and one for purists who appreciate some of its remarkable talents.
It tracks like a demon and cruises over 'difficult' material that some rather more expensive cartridges struggle with, and has one of the most lucid/liquid sounding midranges out with of a Decca, with similar levels of dynamic 'attack'. Plus, one of the most open and sweet sounding top-ends I've ever heard from a cartridge, married to an uncanny ability to unearth previously unheard information in familiar recordings, which can at times be rather unnerving....
At least that's how it sounded in my system, so I hope that Ollie's getting a nice slab of that, too!:cool:
Marco.
Pardon - :scratch: Not in my experience Marco and I've had a good few of the their mc's - not at all.
In my experience their mc's are as you describe the S1, honest and I've always had a sense of them being true to the groove as they say.
I've found recordings do not sound the same and a bass light one is bass light, If bass is prominant then again you'll hear the weight of the bass line.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 18:01
I have to say, Ortofon have made the best cartridges I've heard. The Vienna is just a completely different level and the Kontrapunkt b is only a step off.
Never would I have suggested the Ortofons superimposed bass regardless of recording.
Had you said ZYX, I'd have totally agreed.
If anything, I'd have said Ortofons can sound a bit "safe" Especially their lower cost MC carts like the Rondo red. I know you've used the Ortofons, Marco. Your opinion on the ones you've used, I'll completely accept but seriously my man, if you can ever get a listen to a Vienna, you'll know why I look for one online, three times a day, sometimes more. THE best cartridge I've ever heard.
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you are spot on in regards to the Vienna mate.
Fair enough dudes, I've not heard a Vienna, but the modern Ortofons I've heard tend to have somewhat of an unnatural tonal balance, which to my ears is just so different from that of their earlier stuff, such as the MC10/20/30, and especially SL-15 (and SPUs).
If you compared the likes of an SL-15 with *any* modern Ortofon MC cartridge, you'd hear *exactly* what I mean, trust me;)
My favourite modern Ortofon MC is the Cadenza Bronze (now unfortunately discontinued).
Marco.
This would be a great buy for anyone wishing to hear how Ortofon used to voice their MC cartridges, and who loves a 'DL-103 type of sound', but mixed with some of the talents of the DL-S1:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-ORTOFON-SL-15-MC-Cartridge-w-lightened-G-Shell-Needle-Cover-Audio-/253844685931?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c4#viTab s_0
:cool:
Marco.
Beobloke
10-10-2018, 18:29
My favourite modern Ortofon MC is the Cadenza Bronze (now unfortunately discontinued).
Marco.
No it's not...
https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 18:32
A little more after day one of pretty much uninterrupted listening and a complete setup.
The DL-S1 reminds me of the weeks i spent wishing the AT33PTGII had better bass. Not because the AT33 didn't have bass, it didn't have articulate bass. The Denon is quite adept at delivering an extremely detailed bass line whilst having sufficient "beef" to sound full and well formed. The reason it reminds me of the AT33 is the resolution and tonal balance. If in a blind test, i would wager them being from the same stable. What the Denon does better is soundstage. It is huge. Left to right extend way beyond the speakers and its got excellent scale. All of this is on par with the Kb mind you. What i haven't managed to tease out of it yet is depth to the same degree as the Kb. Marco says the DL-S1 isn't quite run in just yet, so i am hoping to see some improvement in that area. What i will say is that it has slightly improved as the day has gone on.
Resolution & Transparency is excellent with this cartridge, every little bit of detail is apparent. Double tracking, harmonies, 12 string guitars are very easy to identify. This area has surprised me a little as i *think* it's slightly better than the Kb although i will be checking that to be sure.
Dynamics, I had been told that this cartridge would probably outdo the Kb for dynamics, but as of yet, i don't hear it that way. The Kb has a little more weight and impact at the moment but as the Denon relaxes that may change. As of right now, the kick drums definitely hit harder on the Kb. That's not to say the DL-S1 doesn't hit hard because its does.
Channel separation is better on the Denon. It's quite clear too. The sense of motion this gives is a little unnerving. I've found myself looking between the speakers for something there. 3D images that pan across the speaker really clearly and obviously. The lick at the start of lucy in the sky with diamonds pan incrementally from left to right with each note. This is an obvious difference between the DL-S1 and the Kb. The Kb does it just not quite as obviously but again, i need to double check this.
Vocals are richer with the Kb and slightly more human sounding but the Denon feels like its a little raw or less refined which on certain tracks, particularly ones with Kurt Cobain, is a real bonus. The Kb sounds very polished and refined but there is a bit of grit about the Denon, in a really good way. It may also be a little less richness which is allowing the Denon to portray less than perfect vocals in a more blatant way. At the moment, i still "feel" vocals a little more with the Kb according to memory but again, its nip and tuck all the way.
The Denon makes the Kb sound a little veiled at times. the DL-S1 is definitely ahead in resolution.
I know its WAY too early to be drawing any conclusions but i thought it'd fun to log the process and how i get to my final decision. I'll make some more notes when i get some more hours in!
I am currently listening to the Rod Steward album "Gasoline Alley". It's actually a really good album to dissect what a cartridge is doing. There are a lot of great guitar riffs and its an album i enjoy immensely. It sounds great !!!
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 18:34
you are spot on in regards to the Vienna mate.
I'm waiting for Angus to decide he wants a A95 and sell me the Vienna lol
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 18:37
Fair enough dudes, I've not heard a Vienna, but the modern Ortofons I've heard tend to have somewhat of an unnatural tonal balance, which to my ears is just so different from that of their earlier stuff, such as the MC10/20/30, and especially SL-15 (and SPUs).
If you compared the likes of an SL-15 with *any* modern Ortofon MC cartridge, you'd hear *exactly* what I mean, trust me;)
My favourite modern Ortofon MC is the Cadenza Bronze (now unfortunately discontinued).
Marco.
I haven't heard any of those mate so i'll take your word for it. The Vienna is a dream cartridge. All the finesse, Detail etc but its SO dynamic!! its just divine. I hate it :D
No it's not...
https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges
Ah, I thought it was... Am I right in thinking that Noel K is a fan? I seem to remember someone from HFW loved it.
Well then, folks should really get a listen to the CB, as IMO it's a gorgeous listen, neatly straddling the balance between insight and musicality:)
Marco.
A little more after day one of pretty much uninterrupted listening and a complete setup.
The DL-S1 reminds me of the weeks i spent wishing the AT33PTGII had better bass. Not because the AT33 didn't have bass, it didn't have articulate bass. The Denon is quite adept at delivering an extremely detailed bass line whilst having sufficient "beef" to sound full and well formed. The reason it reminds me of the AT33 is the resolution and tonal balance. If in a blind test, i would wager them being from the same stable. What the Denon does better is soundstage. It is huge. Left to right extend way beyond the speakers and its got excellent scale. All of this is on par with the Kb mind you. What i haven't managed to tease out of it yet is depth to the same degree as the Kb. Marco says the DL-S1 isn't quite run in just yet, so i am hoping to see some improvement in that area. What i will say is that it has slightly improved as the day has gone on.
Resolution & Transparency is excellent with this cartridge, every little bit of detail is apparent. Double tracking, harmonies, 12 string guitars are very easy to identify. This area has surprised me a little as i *think* it's slightly better than the Kb although i will be checking that to be sure.
Dynamics, I had been told that this cartridge would probably outdo the Kb for dynamics, but as of yet, i don't hear it that way. The Kb has a little more weight and impact at the moment but as the Denon relaxes that may change. As of right now, the kick drums definitely hit harder on the Kb. That's not to say the DL-S1 doesn't hit hard because its does.
Channel separation is better on the Denon. It's quite clear too. The sense of motion this gives is a little unnerving. I've found myself looking between the speakers for something there. 3D images that pan across the speaker really clearly and obviously. The lick at the start of lucy in the sky with diamonds pan incrementally from left to right with each note. This is an obvious difference between the DL-S1 and the Kb. The Kb does it just not quite as obviously but again, i need to double check this.
Vocals are richer with the Kb and slightly more human sounding but the Denon feels like its a little raw or less refined which on certain tracks, particularly ones with Kurt Cobain, is a real bonus. The Kb sounds very polished and refined but there is a bit of grit about the Denon, in a really good way. It may also be a little less richness which is allowing the Denon to portray less than perfect vocals in a more blatant way. At the moment, i still "feel" vocals a little more with the Kb according to memory but again, its nip and tuck all the way.
The Denon makes the Kb sound a little veiled at times. the DL-S1 is definitely ahead in resolution.
I know its WAY too early to be drawing any conclusions but i thought it'd fun to log the process and how i get to my final decision. I'll make some more notes when i get some more hours in!
I am currently listening to the Rod Steward album "Gasoline Alley". It's actually a really good album to dissect what a cartridge is doing. There are a lot of great guitar riffs and its an album i enjoy immensely. It sounds great !!!
Good stuff, Ollie. I concur with most of that, and am glad that you're enjoying it. It'll be interesting when you switch back to the KB and your ears instantly tell you what's missing and/or what's been gained:)
For me, the DL-S1, whilst not perfect (no cartridge is), has some beguiling and unique (highly desirable) qualities that no other cartridge I've heard emulates.
Marco.
I haven't heard any of those mate so i'll take your word for it. The Vienna is a dream cartridge. All the finesse, Detail etc but its SO dynamic!! its just divine. I hate it :D
Lol... No worries. With me, you have to remember that 95% of the cartridges I like are of the vintage variety, or are based upon vintage design principles. In fact, I'm the same with turntables, amps and speakers...
I wonder why?:hmm:;)
Marco.
montesquieu
10-10-2018, 18:54
If anything, I'd have said Ortofons can sound a bit "safe" Especially their lower cost MC carts like the Rondo red. I know you've used the Ortofons, Marco. Your opinion on the ones you've used, I'll completely accept but seriously my man, if you can ever get a listen to a Vienna, you'll know why I look for one online, three times a day, sometimes more. THE best cartridge I've ever heard.
Vienna (which was a German market special) and Kontrapunkt B appear to be identical - same body, same FG80 tip, same ruby cantilever, same output, same weight, same compliance, indeed in every single spec ... am I missing something?
https://i.imgur.com/8dGE5fM.jpg
Pardon - :scratch: Not in my experience Marco and I've had a good few of the their mc's - not at all.
In my experience their mc's are as you describe the S1, honest and I've always had a sense of them being true to the groove as they say.
I've found recordings do not sound the same and a bass light one is bass light, If bass is prominant then again you'll hear the weight of the bass line.
Rob, this is fundamentally what I think is missing in most modern Ortofons....
From the website review of the Cadenza Bronze (see here and scroll down: https://www.ortofon.com/mc-cadenza-bronze-p-489-n-1579)
The touch of warmth that Ortofon have infused into the design, results in a cartridge with an easy going nature, which invites a person to listen for hours on end...
To my ears, modern Ortofons (save the CB) have the tendency to sound clinical/lack warmth and, for me (for that reason), don't promote long-term listening. It's just a thing I have mate, as I mostly prefer the sound of vintage equipment (done well). The voicing, for me, is quite different - and I'm not talking 'pipe & slippers' either!:)
Marco.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 19:07
Vienna (which was a German market special) and Kontrapunkt B appear to be identical - same body, same FG80 tip, same ruby cantilever, same output, same weight, same compliance, indeed in every single spec ... am I missing something?
https://i.imgur.com/8dGE5fM.jpgThe Coils are different and the WRD (Wide Range Damping) is fitted in the Vienna.
The suspension has a different tension too. It's a very dynamic cartridge which was a specification of the German commissioner, Thakker.
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The Ortofon Vienna 'there I said it' and good it felt too.
I have had the pleasure of listening to it on two occasions in two different guises.
Once as Angus's first version which was factory set up. We were invited to a friend of ours, and this was when I first met Angus. Angus's set up was a show stopper for me and really captured my attention, as it has others.
The second time was at Angus's home and I heard his carefully considered and modified supercharged version, taking it toward the Top of the Table in the present realm of Ortofon offerings.
I was blown away by this and the experience is indelible, I am being compelled by Angus's work. The march is on to experience such delights in my home.
It is satisfying to have been informed by the Cartridge Builder that the Kb, after surgery, can be taking to a performance that will impress in a very similar way to the Vienna.
montesquieu
10-10-2018, 19:10
The Coils are different and the WRD (Wide Range Damping) is fitted in the Vienna.
The suspension has a different tension too. It's a very dynamic cartridge which was a specification of the German commissioner, Thakker.
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Very odd in that case that the output, compliance, tracking force - indeed all the electrical and mechanical specs - are identical. You wouldn't expect that if they had made significant changes.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 19:14
Very odd in that case that the output, compliance, tracking force - indeed all the electrical and mechanical specs - are identical. You wouldn't expect that if they had made significant changes.I can only tell you what's been told to me mate, the authority on the Vienna is Phonomac. He's the only person I know or have heard has one.
Killian Bakker, in Holland, is an Ortofon specialist. He also tells the same story and has all the bits to get a Kb to the same level, spec wise, as the Vienna except he can't get the coils. It would be a close relation but not exact.
In all honesty, this is probably going to be the next move make.
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montesquieu
10-10-2018, 19:16
I can only tell you what's been told to me mate, the authority on the Vienna is Phonomac. He's the only person I know or have heard has one.
Killian Bakker, in Holland, is an Ortofon specialist. He also tells the same story and has all the bits to get a Kb to the same level, spec wise, as the Vienna except he can't get the coils. It would be a close relation but not exact.
In all honesty, this is probably going to be the next move make.
I did hear Angus's but only briefly. The impression was of very good synergy with the AT-1010 arm.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 19:21
I did hear Angus's but only briefly. The impression was of very good synergy with the AT-1010 arm.I would totally agree with that. I also think the TT is very well suited to helping it perform at it's best. In fact, the SP10 and PMAT1010 does have a very good synergy with the Kb on it.
Angus now has the Replicant stylus on his which pushed it on another level.
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RobbieGong
10-10-2018, 21:05
Rob, this is fundamentally what I think is missing in most modern Ortofons....
From the website review of the Cadenza Bronze (see here and scroll down: https://www.ortofon.com/mc-cadenza-bronze-p-489-n-1579)
To my ears, modern Ortofons (save the CB) have the tendency to sound clinical/lack warmth and, for me (for that reason), don't promote long-term listening. It's just a thing I have mate, as I mostly prefer the sound of vintage equipment (done well). The voicing, for me, is quite different - and I'm not talking 'pipe & slippers' either!:)
Marco.
Well it's this bit below, from the same link page that I'm into and getting with the Cadenza Black, hence why I have one ;) granted we all tend to like the 'thing' we like and thats cool.
MC Cadenza Black is the best of everything, true to the groove with resolution and accurate insight into each recording
Angus now has the Replicant stylus on his which pushed it on another level.
Lol - you see that's where we're different...
Fairly recently, I owned the (at the time) top Ortofon SPU (Royal GM MKII), which was fitted with a Replicant stylus. It was great, in many ways, particularly at reproducing 'sparkling highs and a lovely clear, crisp' sound, but it simply failed to get my 'musical juices' flowing, by producing a sound that appealed more to the head than the heart.
So I sold it and bought.....a mint NOS (still in its original box) SPU-G, from 1958, fitted with a conical stylus - and it BLEW AWAY the modern pretender with its 'fancy' stylus, in the areas that matter most: musical communication and listenability, having a sense of power and authority that its modern, much more expensive, Replicant-equipped counterpart could only dream of!
So, sorry, don't talk to me about Replicant styli;)
Marco ['fancy tips' are no guarantee of superior sound].
I can only tell you what's been told to me mate, the authority on the Vienna is Phonomac. He's the only person I know or have heard has one.
Killian Bakker, in Holland, is an Ortofon specialist. He also tells the same story and has all the bits to get a Kb to the same level, spec wise, as the Vienna except he can't get the coils. It would be a close relation but not exact.
In all honesty, this is probably going to be the next move make.
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Interesting, I have a kb with a snapped cantilever sitting around , wonder if he could do something with it. I looked at an Ortofon rebuild and its about 800 euros.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 21:33
Lol - you see that's where we're different...
Fairly recently, I owned the (at the time) top Ortofon SPU (Royal GM MKII), which was fitted with a Replicant stylus. It was great, in many ways, particularly at reproducing 'sparkling highs and a lovely clear, crisp' sound, but it simply failed to get my 'musical juices' flowing, by producing a sound that appealed more to the head than the heart.
So I sold it and bought.....a mint NOS (still in its original box) SPU-G, from 1958, fitted with a conical stylus - and it BLEW AWAY the modern pretender with its 'fancy' stylus, in the areas that matter most: musical communication and listenability, having a sense of power and authority that its modern, much more expensive, Replicant-equipped counterpart could only dream of!
So, sorry, don't talk to me about Replicant styli;)
Marco ['fancy tips' are no guarantee of superior sound].The Ortofon Replicant stylus pushed the Vienna on. I heard it with original FG stylus and the new Replicant. There's absolutely no denying that the Vienna gets MY juices flowing mate. Not saying it would yours.
I don't doubt your findings mate but I suspect it's different tastes. Horses for courses.
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Well it's this bit below, from the same link page that I'm into and getting with the Cadenza Black, hence why I have one ;) granted we all tend to like the 'thing' we like and thats cool.
MC Cadenza Black is the best of everything, true to the groove with resolution and accurate insight into each recording
That's cool, mate. At the end of the day, you like what you like. It would be interesting though, if at some point you compared your Cadenza Black with a Bronze....:)
Marco.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 21:34
Interesting, I have a kb with a snapped cantilever sitting around , wonder if he could do something with it. I looked at an Ortofon rebuild and its about 800 euros.I am sure he said he can fit a new Cantilever and stylus, WRD and his other magic for around €400 but you'd have to double check with him.
I'll find a link to his website.
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cool thanks Oliver . I'd never heard of him before your post.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 21:41
You won't have mate. He's a well kept secret, until now [emoji23]
Drop him an email and ask about repairing it and converting it to a Vienna. He will explain all the gubbins and the price. I've heard the work he did to Phonomac Vienna and it's simply sublime.
http://holisticaudio.nl/services.html
cool thanks Oliver . I'd never heard of him before your post.
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The Ortofon Replicant stylus pushed the Vienna on. I heard it with original FG stylus and the new Replicant. There's absolutely no denying that the Vienna gets MY juices flowing mate. Not saying it would yours.
I don't doubt your findings mate but I suspect it's different tastes. Horses for courses.
Absolutely. However, what I've discovered (at some cost and as a result of considerable experimenting over many years) is that advances may have been made in cartridge design, in terms of creating a clearer, crisper and more detailed sound, but (to my ears) at the expense of musicality. You can hear almost the exact same thing when comparing modern speakers with the best vintage varieties (the voicing is very different), and it's not a trade off I can live with.
I suspect it's also why a company such as Denon, with such huge resources and technical know-how at their disposal, that even their top cartridge (the DL-S1) doesn't feature use of a fine-line stylus, nor indeed have they ever produced a cartridge with such in the whole of their history. 'Special Elliptical' is the furthest they've gone. For me, that's no accident.
Marco.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 21:48
Absolutely. However, what I've discovered (at some cost and as a result of considerable experimenting over many years) is that advances may have been made in cartridge design, in terms of creating a clearer, crisper and more detailed sound, but (to my ears) at the expense of musicality. You can hear almost the exact same thing when comparing modern speakers with the best vintage varieties (the voicing is very different), and it's not a trade off I can live with.
I suspect it's also why a company such as Denon, with such huge resources and technical know-how at their disposal, that even their top cartridge (the DL-S1) doesn't feature use of a fine-line stylus, nor indeed have they ever produced a cartridge with such in the whole of their history. For me, that's no accident.
Marco.Isn't the "Special Elliptical" stylus actually the same profile as the "fine-line" stylus?
I'm pretty sure I've read they are but happy to be wrong.
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RobbieGong
10-10-2018, 21:58
That's cool, mate. At the end of the day, you like what you like. It would be interesting though, if at some point your compared your Black with a Bronze....:)
Marco.
Yep, Would like to hear a Denon 103 one day as well as the Bronze. I get the impression they both have an unquestionably analogue signature which has to be a massive tick.
The Candenza Black does that in my system too, I've felt like I'm right inside the master tape on some recordings, the insight just fabulous.
It's why I could quite happily stay with the Cadenza B, no probs.
The A95 itch I have is a big one. As well as raising more funds for anything like that, It's not wanting to end up with something that veers away from that unmistakeable analogue magic.
This bit from Hifi World for instance ( a small bit mind you, taken from a long review ) intrigues me, as in better as in 'analogue' then great but not better if as in digital, CD, shiny clarity.
"Massively capable, the A95 is a
cartridge that makes the LP sound
better all-round than I have ever
heard it. Almost frightening! It is
sort of CD like in its qualities – only
better.
On the other hand, This from the Ortofon sight is right up my alley, particularly the bolded and especially the underlined
"Those who choose to adopt the MC A95 will experience the lifelike, open sound, with exceedingly clear midrange for a presentation that is unparalleled. The MC A95 remains extremely musical while paying close attention to micro dynamic details, with its delicate, but also analytical nature. Lovers of music will take note of a truly organic and encapsulating experience which transcends the boundaries of recording and undeniably blurs the distinction between what is live and what is recorded.
What to do, what to do !?! :scratch: :)
Isn't the "Special Elliptical" stylus actually the same profile as the "fine-line" stylus?
I'm pretty sure I've read they are but happy to be wrong.
Don't think so.... I'd need to look into the matter in more detail, though.
However, ask yourself this: why is the DL-S1, despite its many talents, not a 'bass monster', in the way of its DL-103 cousin - could it be something to do with the tip?;)
Remember that Jamie observed the very same thing with his DL-103M (which I believe also uses a 'special elliptical' stylus), when compared with his conical-tipped 103SA.....
Experience has taught me that, in general, cartridges fitted with high-quality spherical tips tend to have better bass than their fine-line counterparts, but lose out to the latter at the other end of the frequency extreme....
It doesn't seem possible to have both in a cartridge [amazing lows and amazing highs], so a trade-off is inevitable - and in that respect it's up to the listener what he or she considers as most important to their musical pleasure:)
First and foremost, I'm a bass guy, as for me it's the foundation upon which everything else is built. However, it simply depends on what your ears are most attuned to, and of course the type of music you listen to, which may not contain much bass.
Marco.
Yep, Would like to hear a Denon 103 one day as well as the Bronze. I get the impression they both have an unquestionably analogue signature which has to be a massive tick.
The Candenza Black does that in my system too, I've felt like I'm right inside the master tape on some recordings, the insight just fabulous.
It's why I could quite happily stay with the Cadenza B, no probs.
The A95 itch I have is a big one. As well as raising more funds for anything like that, It's not wanting to end up with something that veers away from that unmistakeable analogue magic.
This bit from Hifi World for instance ( a small bit mind you, taken from a long review ) intrigues me, as in better as in 'analogue' then great but not better if as in digital, CD, shiny clarity.
"Massively capable, the A95 is a
cartridge that makes the LP sound
better all-round than I have ever
heard it. Almost frightening! It is
sort of CD like in its qualities – only
better.
On the other hand, This from the Ortofon sight is right up my alley, particularly the bolded and especially the underlined
"Those who choose to adopt the MC A95 will experience the lifelike, open sound, with exceedingly clear midrange for a presentation that is unparalleled. The MC A95 remains extremely musical while paying close attention to micro dynamic details, with its delicate, but also analytical nature. Lovers of music will take note of a truly organic and encapsulating experience which transcends the boundaries of recording and undeniably blurs the distinction between what is live and what is recorded.
What to do, what to do !?! :scratch: :)
Lol.... You need to try and get a listen to one and make up your own mind. It could also simply be reviewer speak, and the author making it out to be something that it isn't, but perhaps that's me just being cynical?;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
10-10-2018, 22:21
Ha Ha, you know me Marco, read a load of user reveiws cause they're the one's I'm interested in really - superlatives galore.
At the end of the day it's how it sounds in your room and system. It's an expensive itch to scratch and find you're not quite happy :)
(Mind you I've never been afraid to take an educated / gut instinctive punt though ;) )
Me neither, mate. It's the only way you *truly* learn! Good luck if you go for it:)
Marco.
Bigman80
10-10-2018, 22:27
Don't think so.... I'd need to look into the matter in more detail, though.
However, ask yourself this: why is the DL-S1, despite its many talents, not a 'bass monster', in the way of its DL-103 cousin - could it be something to do with the tip?;)
Remember that Jamie observed the very same thing with his DL-103M (which I believe also uses a 'special elliptical' stylus).....
Experience has taught me that, in general, cartridges fitted with high-quality spherical tips tend to have better bass than their fine-line counterparts, but lose out to the latter at the other end of the frequency extreme....
It doesn't seem possible to have both in a cartridge [amazing lows and amazing highs], so a trade-off is inevitable - and in that respect it's up to the listener what he or she considers as most important to their listening pleasure:)
First and foremost, I'm a bass guy, as for me it's the foundation upon which everything else is based. However, it simply depends on what your ears are most attuned to.
Marco.No, I'd agree with that but for me the FG stylus gives the best of both worlds. Sure, there will be a trade-off somewhere but it's a great all-rounder in my opinion.
I love bass, needs to be well defined and tuneful though. None of that boom boom shit [emoji23]
When all is said and done, it's about judging a cart on its merits. I'm very impressed by the DL-S1 so far and can see why it's so sought after. This one does have a new edge at the moment so longer listening sessions are required but yes, I'd already recommend this me if someone was looking at around that budget.
Robbie, I would kill for an A95 and yes, it might steer us in the wrong direction but I'm sure it would take us to a level we didn't realise was even available in whatever direction it took.
One day mate.
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No, I'd agree with that but for me the FG stylus gives the best of both worlds.
Not in my experience, as I mentioned with the SPU Royal GM (Replicant stylus, which is Ortofon's version of an FG), versus an original SPU from 1958, fitted with a spherical tip. The generator and everything else on both cartridges was the same. Only the stylus was different - and the latter blew away its modern counterpart, in areas of weight and bass power (also midrange richness and fluidity).
So, based on that, ask yourself how much REAL progress has been made in cartridge design in the last 60 years...?
I also can't stand boom-boom shit. As the saying goes: 'I'd rather have no bass than bad bass'... However, I'd also rather have great bass and good high-frequency extension and detail, than great high-frequency extension and detail, and merely 'good' bass;)
You pays your money.......
Marco.
Not in my experience, as I mentioned with the SPU Royal GM (Replicant stylus, which is Ortofon's version of an FG), versus an original SPU from the late 1950s, fitted with a spherical tip. The generator and everything else on both cartridges was the same. Only the stylus was different - and the latter blew away its modern counterpart, in areas of weight and bass power (also midrange richness and fluidity).
Not quite - the early SPUs used an alnico magnet, the later ones used rare-earth magnets.
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 07:22
"Not in my experience, as I mentioned with the SPU Royal GM (Replicant stylus, which is Ortofon's version of an FG), versus an original SPU from 1958, fitted with a spherical tip. The generator and everything else on both cartridges was the same. Only the stylus was different - and the latter blew away its modern counterpart, in areas of weight and bass power (also midrange richness and fluidity)."
I'm not entirely convinced that the cartridges were exactly the same. As Barry said, the magnets were different and it's likely other materials would be different. But, like I always say, whatever you hear is right, it has to be!
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phonomac
11-10-2018, 08:03
Since the Vienna is not well known I have pulled the information together here, along with some details of stylus profiles.
Ortofon Vienna
The Vienna was produced for the then distributor of Ortofon in Germany, SWS-Audio. While based on the Kontrapunkt b (ruby cantilever, FG80 stylus) it incorporates the Field Stabilising Element (FSE) from the Kontrapunkt c - subsequently used in the Cadenza Bronze and Windfeld amongst others. The elastomers in the Wide Range Damping (WRD) system are different to the Kb, and the stainless tie-wire is much more flexible. It is generally accepted that the Vienna coils used Ortofon's Aucurum wire - gold-plated copper - instead of the standard Kb coils (otherwise Kilian woulld be able to do a complete transplant).
So I think that when SWS asked for a datasheet they were told just to use the one from the Kb with obvious amendments like cartridge weight. The available Vienna datasheet is not an Ortofon document. The Vienna output levels are comparable to the Kb, but I think separation and frequency range are enhanced. When Tom heard my Vienna it was distinctly sub-par with mal-adjusted suspension, and was just slightly better than a Kb. The restored version with a Replicant 100 stylus is in a whole new league.
The entire reason for the Vienna was that the German market did not like the analytical, sterile sound of the top-range Ortofon cartridges and the changes were designed to address that issue. I think they succeeded and a few others who have heard it seem to agree.
Stylus Profiles
The Kb and Cadenza Blue use variants of the Fritz Gyger FGII stylus - FG80 with r/R of 5/80um, and FG70 with r/R of 5/70um. The Replicant (and Replicant 100) stylus is a Fritz Gyger FGS - with r/R of 5/100um - and has a very different stylus profile to the FGII. This is used on the Cadenza Bronze, the Windfeld and the subsequent Elite cartridge series.
To the best of my knowledge the 'Special Elliptical' profile which features on many Japanese cartidges (Denon DL-304, DL-S1, and Audio Technica ART-7 for example) is a Namiki fine-line stylus with r/R of 8/40um - same as on the MC25FL and the Kontrapunkt h from Ortofon.
Not quite - the early SPUs used an alnico magnet, the later ones used rare-earth magnets.
Yes, that's true. I'd forgotten that. However, you're on record stating that, technically, 'a magnet is a magnet', and so whether rare-earth or alnico, it should make no difference... Remember?;)
In any case, if alnico magnets are partly responsible for the difference in bass response between the respective SPUs, (and I believe that's the case, so I'm glad you mentioned it) then it's yet another example of how we've gone backwards, instead of forwards with technology, as it shows that the supposedly superior modern equivalent (rare-earth) is in fact inferior, certainly in the area of bass weight and low-end authority.
Moreover, I've heard exactly the same thing with other cartridges, namely the DL-103 (as previously discussed). Both the 103M and DL-S1, which feature 'super-elliptical' styli, don't have the same bass weight as DL-103s with spherical styli, despite (I presume?) sharing identical magnets. This was also observed by Jamie, when comparing his 103M to his 103SA.
I recall a similar difference in presentation with the 103D, which also featured the use of an elliptical stylus, and was higher compliance than the stock DL-103, so the trade-off we're discussing could also be partly a low-compliance/high-compliance thing.
On a wider issue, witness also the numerous threads here praising vintage Shure cartridges, from the 1960s and 70s, such as the M55 and (original USA-made) SC35C. There's definitely something about the voicing/way of music-making with these old designs that is distinctly lacking in cartridges produced today.
I also believe it's no 'happy accident' that you yourself use DL-103s, SPUs, Deccas and EMTs (all vintage designs), as your cartridges of choice. Therefore (your love of broadcast/vintage equipment aside), clearly like me, your ears are also picking up on what I'm describing.
Marco.
jandl100
11-10-2018, 08:08
I did a review in an early issue of the Hifi Pig webzine of my experiences of a range of Denon carts, including the DL-S1.
It might be of interest, although I think I can anticipate some of the responses I will get here! :)
The comments by readers at the end of the review make some interesting points and highlight the differing opinions on these carts.
https://hifipig.com/a-cacophony-of-cartridges-part-2-denon-mcs/
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 08:18
As usual Angus, you're the man!
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To the best of my knowledge the 'Special Elliptical' profile which features on many Japanese cartidges (Denon DL-304, DL-S1, and Audio Technica ART-7 for example) is a Namiki fine-line stylus with r/R of 8/40um - same as on the MC25FL and the Kontrapunkt h from Ortofon.
Hi Angus,
Thanks for that information, which I have no reason to dispute:)
However, what would be interesting would be for someone with a good microscope to inspect and photograph (at the necessary magnification) the respective stylus profiles/tips of, for example, established fine-line styli such as Fritz Gyger and Shibata, and compare them with the 'super-elliptical' items used by Denon, to ascertain whether they share identical (or near-identical) profiles, and thus are likely to trace the groove walls of vinyl records in the same way, and in turn share similar sonic characteristics.
This is an interesting (if lengthy) article on the subject, including also some videos: https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information
Marco.
phonomac
11-10-2018, 08:39
Hello Marco,
Yes, I am familiar with the soundsmith piece amongst others.
I do agree that some in-depth inspection of the special ellipticals would be very interesting, although the degree of magnification required makes it a non-trivial task :eyebrows:
Indeed! However, it would provide the evidence required to put that particular subject to bed.
Marco.
A very good collection of posts (all 27 pages of them!) discussing stylus profiles can be found on the vinylengine.com site: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22894.
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 17:45
A very good collection of posts (all 27 pages of them!) discussing stylus profiles can be found on the vinylengine.com site: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22894.Thanks for this Barry.
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A very good collection of posts (all 27 pages of them!) discussing stylus profiles can be found on the vinylengine.com site: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22894.
I think that's the ultimate 'for audiophiles only' post I have ever seen!
Thanks for this Barry.
How are you settling in now with the cartridge, Ollie?:)
Marco.
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 18:31
How are you settling in now with the cartridge, Ollie?:)
Marco.Hi Marco,
Day two with the DLS1:
I spent a few hours listening from around 09:00 until around 12:00. What strikes me most about the cartridge is it's unyielding approach to detail. It is merciless in its quest to dredge the groove and it really does find things that, although I've heard them before, they werent as defined. The payoff is in the decay and transients. It's been a surprise to hear the amount of detail in the decay of piano notes.
What I still can't conjure up is depth I get from the Kb. I've spent a large part of the afternoon fiddling with VTA, Azimuth etc but it just isn't available. Whilst the DL-S1 does have an outstanding soundstage, I know there's depth available and I'm missing it slightly.
The presentation therefore can only be described as more forward than the Kb. The bass is also incredibly detailed and what I presumed was a lack of bass transpires as a drier bass with more leading edge detail. It's very good and also, whilst might it may not be a 'bass monster' it has perfectly sufficient bass to keep all but the most bass hungry listener content.
Tonally, I'm struggling a bit. It's not as rich as the Kb and that was something I liked about the Kb. It wasn't coloured but it had a richness. Out of interest I plumbed the Kb back in and instantly wondered why I Was F#cking with cartridges [emoji23]
It's not that one is better than the other, the DL-S1 has the edge in resolution and leading edge which i love, but the Kb sings to my heart strings.
I put the DL-S1 back in and again, all the qualities were there and it's got such great channel separation that it's exceptional and portraying the soundstage width. I really like how dynamic it is too. There's no doubt in my mind that his cartridge would battle well in the £3k cartridge market. It's an unbelievable bargain at £900 so the £620 I paid is just taking the P!!
Ultimately, the Kb is where my heart lies but that's partly because I have a plan for it rather than there being a clear winner, which there isn't really to discernable a difference. The Kb will be going to Killian Bakker for the Vienna mods. If funds allow going forward.
I'm in no rush to do anything for a bit and will enjoy what the DL-S1 has to offer over the weekend before decided what to do.
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RobbieGong
11-10-2018, 18:39
Nice Day 2 reveiw Oli, and you've probably summed it up.
I'm in no doubt the DL S1 one is a great cartridge and what you are finding doiesnt surprise me.
That it's not a case of one being clearly better than the other, just different and in a way that appeals or leans more over to your personal taste.
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 18:53
Nice Day 2 reveiw Oli, and you've probably summed it up.
I'm in no doubt the DL S1 one is a great cartridge and what you are finding doiesnt surprise me.
That it's not a case of one being clearly better than the other, just different and in a way that appeals or leans more over to your personal taste.Thanks Robbie.
If I'd have heard the DL-S1 first, I'd probably have felt the Kb was slightly fat or slightly bloated but because my ears (and heart) is used to that kB sound, I am struggling to let it go. I will give it a fair few hours over the weekend and try and adjust a bit more but like I say, it's a great cartridge which deserves an Audition!
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So I think you are zoning in on what the DL -S1 can achieve which makes it a great cartridge up there with the best certainly in the £1000 category. I noticed that very open and wide top end with amazing detail when I heard it and I think I agree with you regarding the bass performance which is a little dry but controlled and articulate.
As you know I had the KB in my system a few times and from memory I would say it is fatter in the bass but maybe not so controlled. The DL-S1 bass is similar to my 2M black but the top end is in a different league. When I was evaluating the KB in my system I was shocked when I popped the 2M back in to find that it beat the KB on attack and delivery of detail. Vocals were equal to the KB but the live sound of the 2M was more engaging for me in my system
I would also agree the tonal quality of the KB betters both the DL-S1 and the 2M and here lies the area I think you maybe most sensitive too especially as vinyl excels in this area. The all important midrange material is therefore better expressed by the KB and so makes it an easy listening cartridge. Soundstage depth and width is great on the KB but not as 3D as my 2M, yes it is wider and deeper but not as etched and I mean this in a good way. The DL-S1 however has fantastic soundstage and matches the 2M for that live acoustic sound. It betters both the KB and the 2M in detail and acoustic information from both instruments and vocals.
Tough choice but in the end its what ticks the boxes for you mate. :)
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 19:38
So I think you are zoning in on what the DL -S1 can achieve which makes it a great cartridge up there with the best certainly in the £1000 category. I noticed that very open and wide top end with amazing detail when I heard it and I think I agree with you regarding the bass performance which is a little dry but controlled and articulate.
As you know I had the KB in my system a few times and from memory I would say it is fatter in the bass but maybe not so controlled. The DL-S1 bass is similar to my 2M black but the top end is in a different league. When I was evaluating the KB in my system I was shocked when I popped the 2M back in to find that it beat the KB on attack and delivery of detail. Vocals were equal to the KB but the live sound of the 2M was more engaging for me in my system
I would also agree the tonal quality of the KB betters both the DL-S1 and the 2M and here lies the area I think you maybe most sensitive too especially as vinyl excels in this area. The all important midrange material is therefore better expressed by the KB and so makes it an easy listening cartridge. Soundstage depth and width is great on the KB but not as 3D as my 2M, yes it is wider and deeper but not as etched and I mean this in a good way. The DL-S1 however has fantastic soundstage and matches the 2M for that live acoustic sound. It betters both the KB and the 2M in detail and acoustic information from both instruments and vocals.
Tough choice but in the end its what ticks the boxes for you mate. :)Jim,
There was an exciting 'live' sound to your 2MB and the 3D rendering blew me away. In fact, it was that which made me determined to improve my vinyl play back.
What I couldn't live with, with the 2MB, was the HF which at times sounds a little etched as you say. In your valve system I think it is tamed really well, but here I think my ears would bleed [emoji23]
The Kontrapunkt is too refined a cartridge after you've had long term exposure to the 2MB and that's exactly the issue here, the Kb is tonally what I want it to be. The Denon cannot be as it would lose its performance in the detail.
I'd love that leading edge on the bass to be transferable to the Kb from the DL-S1. It's not hard to hear how good the Denon is and yes, it almost has that 'live' feel the 2MB has but not to that degree.
Like I say, if I'd heard the Denon first, I'd be cussing the Kb for sounding a little fat but as it stands, I love the fat girl (kB) and the supermodel (Denon) is a bit of a fling.
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Decision made then...
Get it back up for sale before you put too many hours on it. ;)
Hi Marco,
Day two with the DLS1:
I spent a few hours listening from around 09:00 until around 12:00. What strikes me most about the cartridge is it's unyielding approach to detail. It is merciless in its quest to dredge the groove and it really does find things that, although I've heard them before, they werent as defined. The payoff is in the decay and transients. It's been a surprise to hear the amount of detail in the decay of piano notes.
What I still can't conjure up is depth I get from the Kb. I've spent a large part of the afternoon fiddling with VTA, Azimuth etc but it just isn't available. Whilst the DL-S1 does have an outstanding soundstage, I know there's depth available and I'm missing it slightly.
The presentation therefore can only be described as more forward than the Kb. The bass is also incredibly detailed and what I presumed was a lack of bass transpires as a drier bass with more leading edge detail. It's very good and also, whilst might it may not be a 'bass monster' it has perfectly sufficient bass to keep all but the most bass hungry listener content.
Tonally, I'm struggling a bit. It's not as rich as the Kb and that was something I liked about the Kb. It wasn't coloured but it had a richness. Out of interest I plumbed the Kb back in and instantly wondered why I Was F#cking with cartridges [emoji23]
It's not that one is better than the other, the DL-S1 has the edge in resolution and leading edge which i love, but the Kb sings to my heart strings.
I put the DL-S1 back in and again, all the qualities were there and it's got such great channel separation that it's exceptional and portraying the soundstage width. I really like how dynamic it is too. There's no doubt in my mind that his cartridge would battle well in the £3k cartridge market. It's an unbelievable bargain at £900 so the £620 I paid is just taking the P!!
Ultimately, the Kb is where my heart lies but that's partly because I have a plan for it rather than there being a clear winner, which there isn't really to discernable a difference. The Kb will be going to Killian Bakker for the Vienna mods. If funds allow going forward.
I'm in no rush to do anything for a bit and will enjoy what the DL-S1 has to offer over the weekend before decided what to do.
Good stuff, mate. I think you've good a very good handle on how the DL-S1 sounds, particularly the bass side of things, as well as acknowledging what its talents are.
Hey, whatever happens now, you've got the satisfaction of knowing you've tried it, and most importantly, compared it with your current benchmark (the KB), and now appreciate what that's good at more than ever.
That always helps to crystallise your thoughts and makes it easier to arrive at the right decisions on how to successfully move forward and achieve the type of sound you want. In that respect, I shall follow your progress with interest!:cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
11-10-2018, 19:55
Good stuff, mate. I think you've good a very good handle on how the DL-S1 sounds, particularly the bass side of things, as well as acknowledging what its talents are.
Hey, whatever happens now, you've got the satisfaction of knowing you've tried it, and most importantly, compared it with your current benchmark (the KB), and now appreciate what that's good at more than ever.
That always helps to crystallise your thoughts and makes it easier to arrive at the right decisions on how to successfully move forward and achieve the type of sound you want. In that respect, I shall follow your progress with interest!:cool:
Marco.That's what its all about now. Trying a few choice pieces and just testing where the system is at. Obviously, elite cartridges like the Benz Gullwing and Ortofon Vienna are the next step but whos got that money lying about lol. Not me for sure
The Denon is a great cart. No doubt. I will get the Kb fettled I think and see how it does then.
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https://www.ortofon.com/mc-windfeld-refurbished-p-175-n-3450
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 10:56
https://www.ortofon.com/mc-windfeld-refurbished-p-175-n-3450I know mate, I've been watching it but cant do anything until I know what's happening at work.
Decided I'm going to 'Vienna' the Kontrapunkt b when funds allow. I reckon once done it may well outdo the Winfeld.
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I know mate, I've been watching it but cant do anything until I know what's happening at work.
Decided I'm going to 'Vienna' the Kontrapunkt b when funds allow. I reckon once done it may well outdo the Winfeld.
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Thought you'd have seen it, no worries.
paulf-2007
12-10-2018, 11:22
Thanks Robbie.
If I'd have heard the DL-S1 first, I'd probably have felt the Kb was slightly fat or slightly bloated but because my ears (and heart) is used to that kB sound, I am struggling to let it go. I will give it a fair few hours over the weekend and try and adjust a bit more but like I say, it's a great cartridge which deserves an Audition!
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalkbetter to spend longer with the Denon like you have with the kb, then see how you find the kb after the denon
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 11:52
better to spend longer with the Denon like you have with the kb, then see how you find the kb after the denonI disagree, Paul. First impressions are critical. If you like something, you instantly know it. Anything else is just you (collective) trying to convince yourself you like something.
I've said before, I dont need weeks to know if something is doing what I like. That's the bonus of knowing exactly what I like and want.
The Denon is a very likeable cartridge and like it I do, but I know what direction I am going in and that's to get the Kb to 'Vienna-ish' levels.
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Bigman80
12-10-2018, 11:53
Thought you'd have seen it, no worries.I'm very tempted mate, as should anyone here lol.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
I disagree, Paul. First impressions are critical. If you like something, you instantly know it. Anything else is just you (collective) trying to convince yourself you like something.
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spot on oli :cool:
paulf-2007
12-10-2018, 15:55
I disagree, Paul. First impressions are critical. If you like something, you instantly know it. Anything else is just you (collective) trying to convince yourself you like something.
I've said before, I dont need weeks to know if something is doing what I like. That's the bonus of knowing exactly what I like and want.
The Denon is a very likeable cartridge and like it I do, but I know what direction I am going in and that's to get the Kb to 'Vienna-ish' levels.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalkfair enough mate I'll be on me way then
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 16:03
[emoji23][emoji23] don't be like that mate, I'm just a first impressions kind and I think it's fair to say I have a good handle on what it does do and where I'm happiest is with the Kb.
It's all good!!
fair enough mate I'll be on me way then
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 16:04
spot on oli :cool:[emoji41]
I agree if you don't like it from the off then you're not likely to grow to like it. On the other hand I have had the odd item that has been impressive at first but on longer and more varied listening has had flaws or characteristics I couldn't live with.
And then there's the dreaded 'synergy'. Something you would like you don't like because it isn't playing nicely with some other part of the system. Rare, but it happens.
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 17:05
I agree if you don't like it from the off then you're not likely to grow to like it. On the other hand I have had the odd item that has been impressive at first but on longer and more varied listening has had flaws or characteristics I couldn't live with.
And then there's the dreaded 'synergy'. Something you would like you don't like because it isn't playing nicely with some other part of the system. Rare, but it happens.Yep, totally agree Macca.
I like the Denon, it's a great cart but I'm more 'tuned' like the Ortofon Kontrapunkt b. Its no fault of the DL-S1, it really is very good. I know it's odd to see someone say "it's very good" but be looking to move it on, but it's just a magic combination with the PMAT1010, SP10 MK2 and the Kb. Synergy is finding that chain which all play nicely together and they really do, as you've heard.
I'm a big fan of that Denon cart but having heard your TT with the Ortofon in I couldn't see how it was going to be better in any appreciable way.
I like both because neither trys to make vinyl sound digital (trying to do that IMO throws the baby out with the bathwater). I don't see the point of that. Marco had a modern SPU on his TT before he got that Denon and that really was not for me. But with the Denon it was bob on.
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 17:57
I'm a big fan of that Denon cart but having heard your TT with the Ortofon in I couldn't see how it was going to be better in any appreciable way.
I like both because neither trys to make vinyl sound digital (trying to do that IMO throws the baby out with the bathwater). I don't see the point of that. Marco had a modern SPU on his TT before he got that Denon and that really was not for me. But with the Denon it was bob on.And that's the outcome mate. Not enough discernable difference for me to move on.
I agree if you don't like it from the off then you're not likely to grow to like it. On the other hand I have had the odd item that has been impressive at first but on longer and more varied listening has had flaws or characteristics I couldn't live with.
And then there's the dreaded 'synergy'. Something you would like you don't like because it isn't playing nicely with some other part of the system. Rare, but it happens.
Spot on Martin - This happened to me with the Kontrapunkt B! I wanted it to work as I had heard it work so well but in my system it lacked something:)
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 20:02
Spot on Martin - This happened to me with the Kontrapunkt B! I wanted it to work as I had heard it work so well but in my system it lacked something:)Synergy mate. So important.
I think instant likes and dislikes are paramount and save us a lot of hard earned money
No point listening to something your not a 100% happy with in the hope you'll grow to like it.
I heard Oliver's Monarchy Amp and instantly new i wanted it and the second it went up for sale i bought it.
I would never buy something i was only 95% happy with
As for your Kontrapunkt Oliver, unless your willing to rob a bank, you will never get a cartridge that integrates with your system as well as the kontrapunkt (imho)
I'd like to be proved wrong as I'd love your kontrapunkt myself but it's highly unlikely.
Steve
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 20:50
I think instant likes and dislikes are paramount and save us a lot of hard earned money
No point listening to something your not a 100% happy with in the hope you'll grow to like it.
I heard Oliver's Monarchy Amp and instantly new i wanted it and the second it went up for sale i bought it.
I would never buy something i was only 95% happy with
SteveTotally agree, except I buy it and then decide if I like it [emoji23]
Seriously, this cartridge is very very good. I don't dislike it, I prefer the Kb.
If I had a mate who was running an AT33PTG,, I'd suggest this cartridge as a definite upgrade [emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6][emoji6]
[emoji38]
Totally agree, except I buy it and then decide if I like it
As long as you're buying used and not paying over the odds it is the best and cheapest way to try loads of kit. By far. I don't understand why some people don't get that.
Okay you can get new kit on trial but then you are under some pressure to make a decision at some point. If you own it you can take a year or more if you want. There's zero pressure. Although I suppose if you still using it after a year you probably do like it.
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 21:08
As long as you're buying used and not paying over the odds it is the best and cheapest way to try loads of kit. By far. I don't understand why some people don't get that.
Okay you can get new kit on trial but then you are under some pressure to make a decision at some point. If you own it you can take a year or more if you want. There's zero pressure. Although I suppose if you still using it after a year you probably do like it.It's just the most logical way. I buy, try and then keep or move on. I'm under no pressure financially to sell so I can take the time I need and then try something else.
yep that's what I like to do as well.
Bigman80
12-10-2018, 21:23
So, the DL-S1 is now sold. It's cost me £8 to try this top class cartridge. Ok, I've lost a very small amount but I'm far richer for the experience.
I'll have fond memories of this cartridge and the direction i am now taking is the right one for me.
Congratulations to he new owner, I am sure he'll be thrilled.
I loved the Denon DL-S1 and it was only bettered by my Audio Technica Art-1.
This hobby though has to be about personal preference, just as some people prefer an Audi to a Range Rover.
My preference has always been to hear what is on the original recording so I have always lent to the revealing.
Congratulations on the quick sale and the desire to try things and make up your own mind. That's what it is all about.
Bigman80
13-10-2018, 07:43
I loved the Denon DL-S1 and it was only bettered by my Audio Technica Art-1.
This hobby though has to be about personal preference, just as some people prefer an Audi to a Range Rover.
My preference has always been to hear what is on the original recording so I have always lent to the revealing.
Congratulations on the quick sale and the desire to try things and make up your own mind. That's what it is all about.Cheers mate.
It's going to a good home with someone who already enjoys the Denon sound so he should be well leased when it gets there.
Only way to know it to buy and try.
paulf-2007
13-10-2018, 07:49
And that's the outcome mate. Not enough discernable difference for me to move on.
I know where you're coming from oli, had the same with the decca and Shure ultra, the Shure did everything right, why break the spell.
Bigman80
13-10-2018, 07:51
I know where you're coming from oli, had the same with the decca and Shure ultra, the Shure did everything right, why break the spell.Exactly. I'm willing to give anything a listen and I've been down the Decca road. A Blue and a Gold but they really didn't work out here.
Open minded so happy to take a punt but it's GOT TO improve my system as a whole, and if it doesn't I don't keep it.
Cheers mate.
It's going to a good home with someone who already enjoys the Denon sound so he should be well leased when it gets there.
Only way to know it to buy and try.
if its who i think it is,he's already got my SA so a fine collection of denons to choose from.
Bigman80
13-10-2018, 08:36
if its who i think it is,he's already got my SA so a fine collection of denons to choose from.It is, and he will have a fine collection.
Easy transaction too.
nickbaba
13-10-2018, 10:09
It is... and it's looking like I do! Didn't really plan it that way but this and the SA both came up within a short time and I do like the Denon sound in my system, so wanted to give it a try on the same basis Oliver did eg if it's not working for me it'll get moved on again for a (hopefully) minimal outlay. Cheers Oliver for passing it on to me.
My only worry with the S1 is that at 14 um/mN it's getting up into the range of medium compliance. Should be fine for the Jelco 750D on my 1210 but I'm not sure it'll be a good match for my future (still under construction) TT with the Groovemaster ii titanium arm. The GM2 is rated for use with carts <20 um/mN but the titanium model is really designed for carts <10 um/mN.
nice one nick,id love to read your thoughts on the 2 and how they compare.
nickbaba
13-10-2018, 21:07
Yes I will add my impressions to the thread here, if Oliver doesn't consider it a threadjack...
btw for anyone who might be interested I heard back from Audio Creative who make the GM2 arm and they said any cart <15 um/mN will work with the titanium arm so that means all my Denons should be fine. Phew.
They actually recommend the DL-103 for the GM2, which is one of the things that attracted me to it, as its based on old broadcast transcription arms and the 103 used to be industry standard back in the day.
Bigman80
13-10-2018, 21:18
Yes I will add my impressions to the thread here, if Oliver doesn't consider it a threadjack...
btw for anyone who might be interested I heard back from Audio Creative who make the GM2 arm and they said any cart <15 um/mN will work with the titanium arm so that means all my Denons should be fine. Phew.
They actually recommend the DL-103 for the GM2, which is one of the things that attracted me to it, as its based on old broadcast transcription arms and the 103 used to be industry standard back in the day.
absolutely feel free to add your comments on here. Eventually, it may become a very good resource for anyone looking into the DL-S1
Only just seen this thread - been away a while so apologies if I’ve missed the info but what SUT/Headamp are you (OP) using with the S1?
I only ask as I also am running an S1 (in a Jelco TK 850s) and for me it’s the perfect compromise. However, it only started to dance properly when I got the Denon AU-S1 SUT.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bigman80
14-10-2018, 18:51
Only just seen this thread - been away a while so apologies if I’ve missed the info but what SUT/Headamp are you (OP) using with the S1?
I only ask as I also am running an S1 (in a Jelco TK 850s) and for me it’s the perfect compromise. However, it only started to dance properly when I got the Denon AU-S1 SUT.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy phonostage is MC only and has loading options in the form of loading plugs. Any amount ofloading can be supplied. I tried the usual suspects. Started at 100ohm to 470ohm, can't remember where I decided it was best if I'm honest.
What kind of gain does your MC Phono preamp have and what kind of adjustment was made for the pretty significant discrepancy in output between the 2 cartridges?
Bigman80
16-10-2018, 19:58
What kind of gain does your MC Phono preamp have and what kind of adjustment was made for the pretty significant discrepancy in output between the 2 cartridges?Hi Blake,
I don't have a figure for the gain as it's a DIY phonostage and ive never even tried to work it out. Gain was no issue though because it is quite high.
The only real way of adjusting for the discrepancies was via the attenuator on the preamp. I did use a sound meter app on my phone for some sort of reference point but it was all very unscientific.
Hi Blake,
I don't have a figure for the gain as it's a DIY phonostage and ive never even tried to work it out. Gain was no issue though because it is quite high.
The only real way of adjusting for the discrepancies was via the attenuator on the preamp. I did use a sound meter app on my phone for some sort of reference point but it was all very unscientific.
No problem.
The spec'd output from these two cartridges (Ortofon Kb and Denon DL S1) is vastly different.
.47 mV vs. .15 mV. They have grossly different gain requirements, probably in the range of 8-10 dB with most "normal" systems. Just my opinion, but it's inconceivable that a gain level that would be ideal with one would be at all close to working well with the other.
While I admire the work you put in to make the comparison, under the circumstances I think it's pretty hard to draw any conclusion with respect to the overall quality of either cartridge though. A pretty good chance that one of these cartridges was severely handicapped with respect to proper matching to the phono stage; the best case scenario would be that they were both equally mismatched. Either way, not a great situation unfortunately.
Is there any such thing as 'ideal' gain? if there is not enough gain it will be obvious, if there is too much gain it will be obvious. Otherwise it won't make a blind bit of difference to the sound quality.
At least that's how it works for everything else, maybe phono cartridges are different in a way I don't understand?
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 07:15
No problem.
The spec'd output from these two cartridges (Ortofon Kb and Denon DL S1) is vastly different.
.47 mV vs. .15 mV. They have grossly different gain requirements, probably in the range of 8-10 dB with most "normal" systems. Just my opinion, but it's inconceivable that a gain level that would be ideal with one would be at all close to working well with the other.
While I admire the work you put in to make the comparison, under the circumstances I think it's pretty hard to draw any conclusion with respect to the overall quality of either cartridge though. A pretty good chance that one of these cartridges was severely handicapped with respect to proper matching to the phono stage; the best case scenario would be that they were both equally mismatched. Either way, not a great situation unfortunately.That's a fair comment but I disagree.
I don't believe that either or both cartridges were handicapped by the phonostage. That's not because I'm precious about it either.
If the phonostage had a set loading and was of standard gain levels, then yes I'd agree with you but I have ultimate flexibility in loading. The loading was set, via loading plugs to get the recommended value (can't remember the figure now!) and then I played around with it until I felt it sounded at its best too.
Gain was no issue. It isn't standard levels which has allowed me to successfully try multiple low output cartridges. Denon 304, AT-ART7 plus others, have been here and been adequately served.
The DL-S1 just wasn't to my taste.
Also, when I hear things like "it didn't sing until I bought......" I wonder why a company would make a product that sounds shit or less than optimal with the majority of standard phonostages. Not gonna sell many like that are they!
If there's a level of synergy obtained between the DL-S1 and the AU-S1, I'll accept that but no, I'm not having it that Denon, a world leading company at that time, would be that daft to make it to only "sing" with its SUT.
You're more than welcome to pop in and judge the quality of vinyl replay here. [emoji6]
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 07:20
Is there any such thing as 'ideal' gain? if there is not enough gain it will be obvious, if there is too much gain it will be obvious. Otherwise it won't make a blind bit of difference to the sound quality.
At least that's how it works for everything else, maybe phono cartridges are different in a way I don't understand?No, I think your right. There was a phonostage here, the Jolida JD9 which had adjustable gain. I had it too high and it was distorted. I had it too low, it was lifeless. I spent a fair bit of time F@cking about with that and even though I was frustrated at the time, I did get the experience of when a cartridge isn't being served well enough.
The Bigbottle (phonostage) was not an issue. I'd have said of it was.
Firebottle
17-10-2018, 07:31
A pretty good chance that one of these cartridges was severely handicapped with respect to proper matching to the phono stage; the best case scenario would be that they were both equally mismatched.
I disagree there was any mismatch that could affect the performance, even though the output levels between the two varied by 10dB.
The gain of the Bigbottle is around the 68dB mark so plenty for low output cartridges.
It also has a large headroom being valve based, so is equally suitable for higher output cartridges.
Is there any such thing as 'ideal' gain? if there is not enough gain it will be obvious, if there is too much gain it will be obvious. Otherwise it won't make a blind bit of difference to the sound quality.
In theory, yes. In practice, however, it's a little different.
With low-output MCs, there's always a sweet spot, where the combination of correct loading and gain result in the sound 'snapping into focus' - and when you've achieved that, you'll hear it!:)
Also, once you hear how music sounds when things are optimised in that way, anything less than that is quite obviously sonically substandard.
I do know where Blake's coming from though, in that if the gain levels weren't accurately matched between both cartridges (and I can't comment if that was the case or not) then it would potentially result in the cartridge with more output sounding livelier/punchier/fuller and more dynamic than its lower output counterpart.
However, that aside, it's clear to me that Oliver has a pretty firm handle on the sound/musical presentation of both the KB and DL-S1, the fundamentals of which no amount of level-matching would change, and so in that respect he's no doubt made the correct choice for him:cool:
Marco.
The DL-S1 just wasn't to my taste.
Lol, I thought you *really liked* it, but ultimately preferred the KB? If so, that's quite different from "The DL-S1 wasn't to my taste", which suggests that you didn't like it, so which is it, daftee?;)
If there's a level of synergy obtained between the DL-S1 and the AU-S1, I'll accept that but no, I'm not having it that Denon, a world leading company at that time, would be that daft to make it to only "sing" with its SUT.
Again, as I discussed on the DL-103 thread, it comes down to 'sounding good' versus optimised, and in that respect there's no doubt that the AU-S1 optimises the sound of the DL-S1 in a way that simply isn't achievable without it.
That said, we're probably talking about that last 5-10% of 'magic', which such optimising brings, but which won't make the sound if the cartridge 'broken' without it.
After all, I used the DL-S1, to great effect, without an AU-S1, resulting in the likes of Macca and Jimbo positively raving about its sound at NEBO, so there's no doubt that the DL-S1 can still sound great without its partnering SUT.
Marco.
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 08:24
Lol, I thought you *really liked* it, but ultimately preferred the KB? If so, that's quite different from "The DL-S1 wasn't to my taste", which suggests you didn't like it, so which is it, daftee?;)
Again, as I discussed on the DL-103 thread, it comes down to 'sounding good' versus optimised, and in that respect there's no doubt that the AU-S1 optimises the sound of the DL-S1 in a way that simply isn't achievable without it.
That said, we're probably talking about that last 5-10% of 'magic', which such optimising brings, but which won't make the sound if the cartridge 'broken' without it.
After all, I used the DL-S1, to great effect, without an AU-S1, resulting in the likes of Macca and Jimbo positively raving about its sound at NEBO, so there's no doubt that the DL-S1 can still sound great without its partnering SUT.
Marco.I did *really like it* but ultimately the Kb was more to my taste/preferable/worked better in my system/achieved better synergy/floated my boat/whet my appetite
Pick one [emoji38]
Cool... Then I'd have written (in post #112): 'I loved the DL-S1, but ultimately the KB was more to my taste'. Those words sum up the feelings you've expressed above rather more accurately;)
It's a question of semantics.... :)
Marco.
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 08:53
Cool... Then I'd have written (in post #112): 'I loved the DL-S1, but ultimately the KB was more to my taste'. Those words sum up the feelings you've expressed above rather more accurately;)
It's a question of semantics.... :)
Marco.I see what you're saying.
Cool beans... The AT OC-9 "isn't to my taste" [an understatement, lol], so I'm sure you feel rather differently about the DL-S1:eyebrows:
Marco.
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 11:00
The difference between the two cartridges is 10dB. The Denon requires 10dB more gain from the phonostage to get the same signal level as the Ortofon.
With not enough gain the volume control will need turning up more and the signal-to-noise ratio may be compromised. With too much gain there's a chance of distortion. Having said that, there should be quite a wide acceptable range between the problematic extremes. Until you hit distortion - or hiss at the other extreme - there should be no change in sound quality with different gains.
As for load impedance... :scratch: that's a grey area
I refer the right honourable gentleman to my previous answer :DGain was no issue. Believe me, this phonostage is capable.
I refer the right honourable gentleman to my previous answer :D
Lol, well you said:
With not enough gain the volume control will need turning up more and the signal-to-noise ratio may be compromised. With too much gain there's a chance of distortion.
...which I fully agree with. So surely, if the gain is incorrect, those are valid reasons for a degradation in sound quality?
Marco.
...which I fully agree with. So surely, if the gain is incorrect, those are valid reasons for a degradation in sound quality?
Marco.
But with most systems there will be sufficient latitude between the two extremes cited.
And what if there isn't - what happens in instances when that's not the case?
Marco.
The difference between the two cartridges is 10dB. The Denon requires 10dB more gain from the phonostage to get the same signal level as the Ortofon.
With not enough gain the volume control will need turning up more and the signal-to-noise ratio may be compromised. With too much gain there's a chance of distortion. Having said that, there should be quite a wide acceptable range between the problematic extremes. Until you hit distortion - or hiss at the other extreme - there should be no change in sound quality with different gains.
As for load impedance... :scratch: that's a grey area
I refer the right honourable gentleman to my previous answer :D
Could not agree with you more.
It is essentially about the signal to noise ratio being compromised. I've run a phono stage with infinitely variable gain (as in fully adjustable within the entire gain range) between 55-75 dB for about 12 years now with various Moving Coil cartridges with outputs between .20 and 1.2 mV. Having that kind of control over gain is very different than having the ability to adjust in increments of 3-5 dB or more. It will show your ears truly how important gain optimization is in terms of realizing the full potential of a good cartridge.
As mentioned previously, a tube phono stage will be less prone to overload, or overload more gracefully than a solid state stage on average, all things being equal. But gain is gain with respect to optimizing the signal to noise ratio which will (at least in my experience) have a significant effect on sound.
I currently run two cartridges, one spec'd by the manufacturer at .35 mV (in reality it may output slightly more or less than that-this one was not individually tested with that data provided by the manufacturer-in my experience with data provided on most individually tested units they actually output more than manufacturer stated output) and the other spec'd at .18 mV but provided with test data on that specific cartridge that shows an actual output of .25 mV.
In my system, which is not particularly unusual (ie. no passive preamp, no ultra high efficiency speakers, etc.) even these cartridges have very different gain requirements to sound their best. For example, in this situation, I run the lower output cartridge with 5.25 dB more gain than the higher output cartridge. In theory and in a perfect world I should be running with a 3 dB difference; my gut feeling is that the .35 mV spec'd cartridge actually has a slightly higher output.
The stated output between the two cartridges mentioned here-the Denon and Ortofon-is huge. I've found (with infinitely adjustable gain) that the real sweet spot with low output MC's is very narrow: certainly within 1-2 dB and probably narrower than that at the risk of sounding heretical. But one will never know that unless they have the ability to adjust gain infinitely or in very tiny increments in any given system.
It is entirely about the signal to noise ratio. Move one way or the other (too much or too little gain) and it is not optimized and the noise is amplified more than the signal. When you start hearing more noise and less signal, you're not hearing the cartridge at its best. It cannot be avoided.
And, as i stated before, the gain requirements for these two cartridges are really vastly different.
All in my opinion (as I mentioned earlier) of course with the usual "your mileage may vary" disclaimer.
Maybe you misunderstood me - I was stating the exact opposite of your opinion.
How are you measuring gain to 1/100th of a decibel?
No, my opinion is the opposite of yours. If the signal-to-noise ratio is so poor that hiss is audible the hiss is an unwanted addition but it doesn't really affect the signal and the sound quality - it's just an added annoyance.
What I'm saying is that with fully adjustable gain it is apparent that there is a lot more to signal to noise than hiss being audible. That very small increases or decreases in gain result in qualitative differences in sound quality.
Think of it this way: there will be an optimal setting for gain. There has to be. Once you move away from that in either direction signal will be obscured by noise.
I'm not "measuring gain" per se. My phono preamp is an Aqvox Phono 2 CI with full range gain pots on the front of the phono stage. I can hear very clear changes in sound quality with adjustments of less than 1 dB with any of the cartridges I've used. Subjectively, one listener may prefer a different presentation than another in a situation like this but that's another can of worms.
Changing volume will change perceived sound quality though and we can detect down to 0.1 dB of difference; this doesn't just apply to phono stages but everything.
Changing volume will change perceived sound quality though and we can detect down to 0.1 dB of difference; this doesn't just apply to phono stages but everything.
Really? You're a better man than me.
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.1
What I'm saying is that with fully adjustable gain it is apparent that there is a lot more to signal to noise than hiss being audible. That very small increases or decreases in gain result in qualitative differences in sound quality.
Think of it this way: there will be an optimal setting for gain. There has to be.
That's my view, and once you move away from that, the sound will be clearly be sub-optimal. It's only optimal, if its OPTIMAL!;)
Marco.
On the other hand... maybe Marco has a point. With the typical op-amp type of circuit with lots of feedback the distortion stays fairly constant until a certain point is reached where the distortion goes through the roof, but with the type of circuit employed in some headamps such as the Lentek the distortion rises steadily as the signal level rises - so maybe there's some merit in the idea that there's a sweet spot between the extremes. But that will only apply to certain types of circuit, not all circuits (hence not all products).
The "sweet spot" is simply the point where the optimum sound has been achieved, arrived at as a result of the optimal settings having been applied. It's no more complicated than that.
Think of it, in terms of the sound 'snapping into focus', rather like what happens with a cartridge, when you succeed in dialling in *just the right amount* of VTF. It's that type of effect, and in that respect, the difference between the sound 'snapping into focus' or not, could be as little as 0.01g.... It's the same with gain, and db levels.
Marco.
Once again, I disagree. The "optimal setting for gain" is chosen arbitrarily to give a balance between headroom and signal-to-noise ratio.
Yes that might be the case technically, but your ears can (and often do) tell you something quite different!;)
Marco.
No, there are no optimal settings. You can improve the signal-to-noise ratio, but that degrades the distortion. You can reduce the distortion, but that degrades the signal-to-noise ratio. You have to balance the two and find an acceptable compromise between two conflicting requirements. You cannot optimise the signal-to-noise ratio, then optimise distortion as if they were two separate things. They're not.
I'm talking about the "sweet spot", as in that perceived by your own ears, which as Blake is saying, is determined by how good you think the sound is, not judged by any set of measurements. It is a wholly subjective assessment.
As I've said, optimal gain (judged subjectively) is as responsible for one successfully hitting that "sweet spot", just as much as subjectively with VTF, VTA or any other important parameters relating to vinyl replay. That's why it helps to have as much adjustment available as possible, on phono stages and/or head amps, to facilitate the process.
And it makes a BIG difference to SQ, when you hit that spot! Oh, and which you indeed may never do, if relying solely on measurements...;)
Marco.
I'm talking about the "sweet spot", as in that perceived by your own ears, which as Blake is saying, is determined by how good you think the sound is, not judged by any set of measurements. It is a wholly subjective assessment.
As I've said, optimal gain (judged subjectively) is as responsible for one successfully hitting that "sweet spot", just as much as subjectively with VTF, VTA or any other important parameters relating to vinyl replay. That's why it helps to have as much adjustment available as possible, on phono stages and/or head amps, to facilitate the process.
And it makes a BIG difference to SQ, when you hit that spot! Oh, and which you may never do, if relying solely on measurements...;)
Marco.
Agree with you on the gain thing wholeheartedly. Low gain is often responsible for poor replay. As can too much
That's your opinion. It isn't mine, nor does it fit any accepted engineering practice. I think it's time to agree to differ.
Lol... I'm afraid that there's a lot more to audio, especially with optimising vinyl replay, than simply accepted engineering practice!;)
Much of it comes simply from experience [gut instincts and judgement] and knowing what to listen for. Plus how to possibly put it right, if you think it sounds wrong - none of which you'll learn from a textbook.
Anyway, fair enough, we'll agree to disagree:)
Marco.
Lol - I'm not (intentionally) patronising anyone; I'm simply saying what I think and expressing an honest opinion, so no offence intended:)
However, the basic fact remains if something sounds subjectively better to someone, then for them it *is* subjectively better [no-one can dispute that] - and that applies as much with the 'optimal' setting of gain, for vinyl replay, as it does with anything else in audio.
Marco.
BTW, it may be worth mentioning that blake's phonostage is quite unusual and for MC cartridges uses a current gain amplifier. Exactly how the gain adjustment pots on the front panel work isn't clear, but any change in perceived sound quality may well be due to a change in some parameter other than gain.
True, but my experience is also consistent with more traditional phono stages I've had in the past. I once ordered a customized (for gain) stage that was delivered unfortunately with incorrect gain. Short by about 5 dB. This with a .2 mV cartridge. Could I listen to my system? Yes. Did it sound good? No, it was pretty much unlistenable, at least by what I consider to be any reasonable standards with decent hardware and software. Once the phono stage was returned and modified with the correct gain that I'd ordered, everything was fine.
On the other hand, I've also run a 1.2 mV cartridge with my Aqvox, which unfortunately provided an excess of gain for that cartridge, about 5-6 dB. Actually did not sound bad, but substituting it with a very similar cartridge with an output much more amenable to the Aqvox and then dialing in/adjusting the gain resulted in grossly superior sound.
Once again, we are talking about a comparison here with two very low output cartridges in which one cartridge ideally requires 10 dB more gain than the other to work optimally. In my experience this is simply too massive a range to suggest that both cartridges would be even close to being optimized to hear what they are capable of. I could buy into a performance evaluation where the necessary gain range with a fixed gain stage was much more limited, perhaps in the 3-4 dB range. But we don't have that here. It's possible that one or the other was optimized, or close to being optimized depending on their specific gain requirements, or it's possible that they were both compromised. Either situation is not great.
But yes, we will probably have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 16:43
True, but my experience is also consistent with more traditional phono stages I've had in the past. I once ordered a customized (for gain) stage that was delivered unfortunately with incorrect gain. Short by about 5 dB. This with a .2 mV cartridge. Could I listen to my system? Yes. Did it sound good? No, it was pretty much unlistenable, at least by what I consider to be any reasonable standards with decent hardware and software. Once the phono stage was returned and modified with the correct gain that I'd ordered, everything was fine.
On the other hand, I've also run a 1.2 mV cartridge with my Aqvox, which unfortunately provided an excess of gain for that cartridge, about 5-6 dB. Actually did not sound bad, but substituting it with a very similar cartridge with an output much more amenable to the Aqvox and then dialing in/adjusting the gain resulted in grossly superior sound.
Once again, we are talking about a comparison here with two very low output cartridges in which one cartridge ideally requires 10 dB more gain than the other to work optimally. In my experience this is simply too massive a range to suggest that both cartridges would be even close to being optimized to hear what they are capable of. I could buy into a performance evaluation where the necessary gain range with a fixed gain stage was much more limited, perhaps in the 3-4 dB range. But we don't have that here. It's possible that one or the other was optimized, or close to being optimized depending on their specific gain requirements, or it's possible that they were both compromised. Either situation is not great.
But yes, we will probably have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.Regardless of whether the setup is 'optimal' for the DL-S1 or not, the system wasn't built around the Kb either.
Both cartridges had an equal playing field. Loading was done correctly (wish I'd kept the notes) and the setup was perfect.
If the DL-S1 didn't do what it's supposed to, how did our resident Denon guru (Marco) manage to concur with my findings? His system was 'optimised' for the Denon so surely if it wasnt able to perform in the conditions here, the only explaination is that I read Marcos mind!!!!
There's no way I'd swap my phonostage so if any cartridge came here and didn't perform, it's the cartridge that's on its way, not he phonostage. I also have no time for SUTs and all that F#cking matching nonsense. A solid headamp or built in thing like my phonostage has does a better job than anything else I've tried.
I think the bigger issue is the lack of acceptance that a lowly ([emoji848]) Kontrapunkt b was preferred to the almighty DL-S1.
"Blame the equipment for the DL-S1 being unable to oust the incumbent cartridge!!!" [emoji38]
Any piece of kit that NEEDS some special SUT or HA to perform like some mythical beast, isn't going to make it here.
Wow, loads of pages to say that Oli preferred the KB over the Denon.
It’s his ears, his system and his music to make his choice. He preferred one and not the other.
A bit like me preferring my Asus sound card as opposed to the very popular Caiman SEG. It’s not normal, but who cares?
Or you could change things at random and in the process change more than you realised, then claim the improvement is due to thing you think you changed.
.
Yes absolutely. There's a lot of variables going on at once in a hi-fi system (not to mention the human brain), it's unwise to draw definite conclusions as to cause and effect without some serious technical investigation. Especially when the reason you have decided upon makes no sense when you consider how the thing actually works.
Really? You're a better man than me.
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.1
Not saying I can, but 0.1db is considered the threshold. Below it's safe to say no one can perceive it.
I certainly have no issues with the conclusions Oliver's reached with the DL-S1:)
Marco.
BTW, it may be worth mentioning that blake's phonostage is quite unusual and for MC cartridges uses a current gain amplifier. Exactly how the gain adjustment pots on the front panel work isn't clear, but any change in perceived sound quality may well be due to a change in some parameter other than gain.
Whilst the Gain controls on the Aqvox are marked in dB, I doubt very much if they are calibrated or if it is possible to interpolate the settings to any more than a dB or so.
http://www.aqvox.de/webpics/PHONO_oben.jpg
Furthermore, AQVOX state in their user manual that the Gain controls do more than act as volume controls; their operation is more subtle:
http://www.aqvox.de/download/SETUP-Info-PHONO2Ci.pdf
(Paragraph 5)
RobbieGong
17-10-2018, 20:57
Regardless of whether the setup is 'optimal' for the DL-S1 or not, the system wasn't built around the Kb either.
Both cartridges had an equal playing field. Loading was done correctly (wish I'd kept the notes) and the setup was perfect.
If the DL-S1 didn't do what it's supposed to, how did our resident Denon guru (Marco) manage to concur with my findings? His system was 'optimised' for the Denon so surely if it wasnt able to perform in the conditions here, the only explaination is that I read Marcos mind!!!!
There's no way I'd swap my phonostage so if any cartridge came here and didn't perform, it's the cartridge that's on its way, not he phonostage. I also have no time for SUTs and all that F#cking matching nonsense. A solid headamp or built in thing like my phonostage has does a better job than anything else I've tried.
I think the bigger issue is the lack of acceptance that a lowly ([emoji848]) Kontrapunkt b was preferred to the almighty DL-S1.
"Blame the equipment for the DL-S1 being unable to oust the incumbent cartridge!!!" [emoji38]
Any piece of kit that NEEDS some special SUT or HA to perform like some mythical beast, isn't going to make it here.
My sentiments exactly Oli and I agree whole heartedly, hence I've never gone down that road or felt inclined to.
It's all in yo ears dudes.
I chose my NA interspace and Rega arm over a Roxan Xerxses and Moerch arm in a dealer shoot out because I preferred the sound.
That was 10 years ago and I have never regretted it for a single moment. The Roxan combo had more detail but less bass and heft, not for me or the music I play even though it might be considered to be more "HiFi" than the NA by some.
I've never heard a Denon but am very happy with my ZYX so am not going down that road and anyway it would mean me buggering about with the tonearm etc. Knowing Oli I'm sure he knows what he likes and trusts his ears, better doing that than agonizing over whether small amounts of gain etc would influence the cartridge to the extent that would make him change his mind.
I think you will know instinctively whether a piece of kit has the right character for you or not when you hear it, the rest of the tinkering is trying to extract as much of that out of it as is possible. If the essential character of the kit doesn't suit then nothing will really make it float you boat I reckon at least if you know your own mind.
RobbieGong
17-10-2018, 21:17
It's all in yo ears dudes.
I chose my NA interspace and Rega arm over a Roxan Xerxses and Moerch arm in a dealer shoot out because I preferred the sound.
That was 10 years ago and I have never regretted it for a single moment. The Roxan combo had more detail but less bass and heft, not for me or the music I play even though it might be considered to be more "HiFi" than the NA by some.
I've never heard a Denon but am very happy with my ZYX so am not going down that road and anyway it would mean me buggering about with the tonearm etc. Knowing Oli I'm sure he knows what he likes and trusts his ears, better doing that than agonizing over whether small amounts of gain etc would influence the cartridge to the extent that would make him change his mind.
I think you will know instinctively whether a piece of kit has the right character for you or not when you hear it, the rest of the tinkering is trying to extract as much of that out of it as is possible. If the essential character of the kit doesn't suit then nothing will really make it float you boat I reckon at least if you know your own mind.
Word(s) :D
Bigman80
17-10-2018, 21:25
[emoji38]
Word(s) :D
If the essential character of the kit doesn't suit then nothing will really make it float you boat...
I completely agree - and the same could be said for women, once you get their "kit" off:eyebrows::D
Marco.
Mike Reed
18-10-2018, 07:23
I completely agree - and the same could be said for women, once you get their "kit" off:eyebrows::D
Marco.
By which time you've gone too far, but can't quite draw an analogy to hifi at the mo'. :lol:
And you've since lost the 'urge':D
Marco.
RobbieGong
18-10-2018, 11:40
And you've since lost the 'urge':D
Marco.
Sounds like a flop :eek: :eyebrows: :D
montesquieu
18-10-2018, 11:53
Coming late into this but it just reinforces in my mind the superiority (ymmv yada yada) of my preferred approach of using multi-tap step-up transformers that allow for flexibility in cartridge gain - indeed I would argue that something along these lines is essential if you have a even a modest cartridge collection intended to optimise replay of different stereo and mono LPs of different eras or even genres. (Not important to some of course but utterly essential to others).
I think I mentioned in my review of Miyajima step-ups the joys of running in the same evening from a 2 ohm 0.18 Ikeda cartridge to a 100 ohm 1.5mV Ortofon CG25 (values at the cartridge coil) - this is all about being able to find a satisfactory match between cartridge and phono stage that optimises the capability of both.
Interestingly the EAR 912 I use as a phono preamp not only has four internal SUT settings (labelled 3, 6, 12 and 40 ohms but more accurately representing different step-up ratios - SUTs are generally far more forgiving in terms of precise matching of measured values than head amps), but also an interstage transformer between phono stage and preamp, with signal visually represented by VU meters, so that overall gain can be visually matched to keep things at appropriate levels - avoiding either overload or hiss from insufficient gain (though it's famously very quiet anyway for a valve unit).
It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.
Hearing a 3d soundstage isn't a product of imagination - the engineer has done that deliberately, it's what you are supposed to hear.
We may not be able to measure it on replay but if you could have a look at the desk you would see the settings of the panning and levels of the individual tracks in the mix designed to give that effect.
Bigman80
18-10-2018, 12:15
Coming late into this but it just reinforces in my mind the superiority (ymmv yada yada) of my preferred approach of using multi-tap step-up transformers that allow for flexibility in cartridge gain - indeed I would argue that something along these lines is essential if you have a even a modest cartridge collection intended to optimise replay of different stereo and mono LPs of different eras or even genres. (Not important to some of course but utterly essential to others).
I think I mentioned in my review of Miyajima step-ups the joys of running in the same evening from a 2 ohm 0.18 Ikeda cartridge to a 100 ohm 1.5mV Ortofon CG25 (values at the cartridge coil) - this is all about being able to find a satisfactory match between cartridge and phono stage that optimises the capability of both.
Interestingly the EAR 912 I use as a phono preamp not only has four internal SUT settings (labelled 3, 6, 12 and 40 ohms but more accurately representing different step-up ratios - SUTs are generally far more forgiving in terms of precise matching of measured values than head amps), but also an interstage transformer between phono stage and preamp, with signal visually represented by VU meters, so that overall gain can be visually matched to keep things at appropriate levels - avoiding either overload or hiss from insufficient gain (though it's famously very quiet anyway for a valve unit).
It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.I can accept that if you are going to run multiple (very) special and (very) expensive cartridges like the ones you do, Tom, that it makes sense to have all the gain, capacitance and loading options available to you.
The thing is, the DL-S1 isn't as far off the beaten track as folk would like to believe. It's not that particularly difficult to get the best out of the cartridge. What I object to and is the theory that it can only perform to its full potential with a specific SUT.
I know you have some fine pieces Tom, do you imagine one of your SUTs could get the DL-S1 to perform? I do.
It's not a cartridge I was going to dissolve the system for. Had it blown me away, them yes, I'd have gone after the fabled matching SUT.
montesquieu
18-10-2018, 12:35
It’s true that SUTs can be expensive but for me the results justify it.
I’m 100% sure I could find an appropriate setting for the Denon on both the EAR and the Miyajima ETR-Stereo.
Personally though - from experience of what I know I like having bought and sold on literally dozens of cartridges over the years - I have a pretty good idea that the Denon wouldn’t be to my taste. The Ortofon on the other hand I rate and feel pretty sure I would like - Ive heard many models from the Kontrapunkt and later Cadenza series - I owned a Jubilee myself - and they have all had something I enjoy going for them. I have a particular soft spot for the Cadenza Blue.
Would 100% correct settings sell me on the Denon? Personally I’m skeptical. It’s more likely to leave me admiring some aspects of what it does rather than wanting to own it. But never say never, I guess.
Neither cartridge would be ideal in my high mass arm/low compliance cartridge/idler step so its kind of academic really from my perspective.
Bigman80
18-10-2018, 12:51
It’s true that SUTs can be expensive but for me the results justify it.
I’m 100% sure I could find an appropriate setting for the Denon on both the EAR and the Miyajima ETR-Stereo.
Personally though - from experience of what I know I like having bought and sold on literally dozens of cartridges over the years - I have a pretty good idea that the Denon wouldn’t be to my taste. The Ortofon on the other hand I rate and feel pretty sure I would like - Ive heard many models from the Kontrapunkt and later Cadenza series - I owned a Jubilee myself - and they have all had something I enjoy going for them. I have a particular soft spot for the Cadenza Blue.
Would 100% correct settings sell me on the Denon? Personally I’m skeptical. It’s more likely to leave me admiring some aspects of what it does rather than wanting to own it. But never say never, I guess.
Neither cartridge would be ideal in my high mass arm/low compliance cartridge/idler step so its kind of academic really from my perspective."Would 100% correct settings sell me on the Denon? Personally I’m skeptical. It’s more likely to leave me admiring some aspects of what it does rather than wanting to own it."
That's how I feel about it. Whether I had the absolute optimum setting or not, it didnt make me think i wanted to build a setup around it. I don't believe I'd feel differently either way.
nickbaba
18-10-2018, 13:49
Aw you guys are not exactly filling me with confidence about my latest purchase...
Still didn't have a chance to hear it yet, got some listening time booked for the weekend hopefully. I guess we'll see.
Bigman80
18-10-2018, 14:12
Aw you guys are not exactly filling me with confidence about my latest purchase...
Still didn't have a chance to hear it yet, got some listening time booked for the weekend hopefully. I guess we'll see.[emoji50]
Sorry mate, I'm afraid the thread has descended into a bit of a downer on the DL-S1.
That wasn't my feeling and still isn't. It's a really good cart. If you to like the DL103SA you are sure to love DL-S1. I have no doubt.
Whenever someone goes against the grain, as I have, there becomes an instant interrogation into why. It's irrelevant, you will hear it and make up your own mind, as i did.
Marco commented that your system will likely be better placed to enjoy this cartridge. He would know, being the Denon Guru.
Mike Reed
18-10-2018, 16:48
And you've since lost the 'urge':D
Marco.
Nope. Just the URGEncy.:lol:
Mike Reed
18-10-2018, 16:56
Interestingly the EAR 912 I use as a phono preamp not only has four internal SUT settings (labelled 3, 6, 12 and 40 ohms but more accurately representing different step-up ratios - SUTs are generally far more forgiving in terms of precise matching of measured values than head amps), but also an interstage transformer between phono stage and preamp, with signal visually represented by VU meters, so that overall gain can be visually matched to keep things at appropriate levels - avoiding either overload or hiss from insufficient gain (though it's famously very quiet anyway for a valve unit).
It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.
I agree, and as Hugo and others pointed out to me at my bake-off on Saturday, I have maybe become a little too addicted to the meters !
Whenever someone goes against the grain, as I have, there becomes an instant interrogation into why. It's irrelevant, you will hear it and make up your own mind, as i did.
Marco commented that your system will likely be better placed to enjoy this cartridge. He would know, being the Denon Guru.
Firstly, you should never be subjected to "interrogation" by anyone, simply for coming to a decision that may have upset some people's sensibilities... And I don't think you have, certainly by anyone who was surprised that you preferred the KB to the Denon, but rather from others who may have considered you didn't do enough to allow the DL-S1 to shine.
I don't buy that at all and disagree, as I ran the DL-S1 through a fixed gain/fixed loading MM phono stage and MC head amp, and it sounded superb, without it being nannied by an 'optimal' SUT and/or a variable-gain phono stage.
Do I think that an AU-S1 would've had the potential to make it perform even better? Yes, absolutely (as I know from experience how well Denon's SUTs and cartridges gel together), but it's not *essential* in order for the cartridge to be enjoyed to a high standard.
So to be honest Ollie, I wouldn't give a monkeys what anyone thinks. You've made your own informed and carefully considered decision on the matter, which you're entitled to, and which I fully respect, and that should be an end to the matter.
And yes, I have no doubt that Nick will love the DL-S1 and be very happy that he bought it, primarily because he's probably more attuned to liking the Denon sound, and has a system geared up to allow him to do that:cool:
Marco.
julesd68
18-10-2018, 17:40
Whenever someone goes against the grain, as I have, there becomes an instant interrogation into why.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1930/45411570941_524b45b908_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cbSaVF)
Bigman80
18-10-2018, 17:41
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1930/45411570941_524b45b908_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cbSaVF)[emoji23][emoji23]
Bigman80
18-10-2018, 17:47
"but rather that some may have considered you didn't do enough to allow the DL-S1 to shine"
That's their opinion but mine is simpler, It had the same playing field as the Kb. The setup wasn't built around the Kb so they both have to perform in what's here and let's get something perfectly clear, I NEVER said the DL-S1 didn't perform. That's where the confusion has come from.
The members here have suggested that it didn't perform due to "the system not being optimised for the DL-S1"
Its bollocks.
The cartridge performance was excellent. It just didn't out perform the Kb so I'm sticking with what I have. To suggest the system let it down is ridiculous.
That's the bit that people aren't willing to accept and are searching for a reason the DL-S1 didn't beat the Kb, like I said 50 posts back.
RobbieGong
18-10-2018, 18:00
Firstly, you should never be subjected to "interrogation" by anyone, simply for coming to a decision that may have upset some people's sensibilities... And I don't think you have, certainly by anyone who was surprised that you preferred the KB to the Denon, but rather from others who may have considered you didn't do enough to allow the DL-S1 to shine.
I don't buy that at all and disagree, as I ran the DL-S1 through a fixed gain/fixed loading MM phono stage and MC head amp, and it sounded superb, without it being nannied by an 'optimal' SUT and/or a variable-gain phono stage.
Do I think that an AU-S1 would've had the potential to make it perform even better? Yes, absolutely (as I know from experience how well Denon's SUTs and cartridges gel together), but it's not *essential* in order for the cartridge to be enjoyed to a high standard.
So to be honest Ollie, I wouldn't give a monkeys what anyone thinks. You've made your own informed and carefully considered decision on the matter, which you're entitled to, and which I fully respect, and that should be an end to the matter.
And yes, I have no doubt that Nick will love the DL-S1 and be very happy that he bought it, primarily because he's probably more attuned to liking the Denon sound, and has a system geared up to allow him to do that:cool:
Marco.
Spot on and well put.
RobbieGong
18-10-2018, 18:02
Aw you guys are not exactly filling me with confidence about my latest purchase...
Still didn't have a chance to hear it yet, got some listening time booked for the weekend hopefully. I guess we'll see.
It's a fab cart from what I know of it so you've nothing to worry about ;)
It may be my imagination (which, essentially, is the medium we all listen through anyway - imagination is at the heart of, for example, the auditory feat of hearing a 3D soundstage) but I do generally feel the sound quality is at its best when the VU meters are also telling me the gain structure is optimal.
I completely agree [although I don't think you're imagining anything], and indeed was saying something similar yesterday to Andrew. Implementing an optimal 'gain structure', for me, is VITAL in order for any vinyl replay system to perform at the highest level, both sonically and musically.
And for me, when it's significantly compromised, you can hear the effect very easily: gain too low = weedy, lacklustre sound, lacking in 'oomph'. Gain to high = edgy, saturated sound, prone to distortion.
I could go into that in more detail, but those are essentially the effects I *always* hear, when the gain structure in a vinyl replay system has been obviously compromised.
Marco.
i was hoping one would dwarf the other,trouble is they are both great cartridges,fair pair i say for having a go oli.
Bigman80
18-10-2018, 18:17
i was hoping one would dwarf the other,trouble is they are both great cartridges,fair pair i say for having a go oli.Thanks mate, I like trying new pieces so it's another of the "legendary" bits ticked off the list.
The members here have suggested that it didn't perform due to "the system not being optimised for the DL-S1"
Its bollocks.
Well, that bit isn't bollocks. Your system wasn't optimised for the DL-S1, but then neither was mine!!:eek::D
Didn't stop it from sounding great here though, nor I'm sure also at yours:)
The fact is, it's *impossible* to optimise every cartridge that comes into your system, no matter whether your phono stage and/or SUT is so flexible that it makes breakfast for you and tucks you in bed at night!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Well, that bit isn't bollocks. Your system wasn't optimised for the DL-S1, but then neither was mine!!:eek::D
Didn't stop it from sounding great here though, nor I'm sure also at yours:)
The fact is, it's *impossible* to optimise every cartridge that comes into your system, no matter whether your phono stage and/or SUT is so flexible that it makes breakfast for you and tucks you in bed at night!:eyebrows:
Marco.
For the record, when I posted my initial question about gain, I was in no way suggesting that the system was not optimised for the Denon, only that if the same gain was in use for both cartridges it would certainly not be optimised for one, and quite possibly both.
Truth be told, if the phono preamp in use during the evaluation has 68 dB of gain and the Denon was loaded within a reasonable range (sounds like it was), in theory at least it would be pretty much optimised for the DL-S1 and it would be the Ortofon which would be at a fairly distinct disadvantage.
nickbaba
18-10-2018, 20:36
Aw you guys are not exactly filling me with confidence about my latest purchase...
Heh heh hopefully you could tell my comment was made with tongue firmly in cheek... I've been around the forums long enough to know not to take someone else's opinion over the evidence of my own ears. I'll be giving the S1 a listen myself before reaching any conclusions. Every system is different, every room is different and everyone has different tastes, both in music and how they like it to sound. So what doesn't work for one may be perfect for another.
Having read through the thread with interest, I'll be sure to try and set appropriate gain and loading. I have a Rothwell Headspace into the MM input on my Croft 25R and/or EAR 834, which gives me pretty decent flexibility. The other stuff you probably know about already, modded 1210 + re-wired Jelco 750D.
I do have an ADC magnesium headshell, although I don't have the AT model recommended by Marco. Will give it a go on the ADC.
Once I've had a chance to have a listen, hopefully over the weekend, I'll report back.
Heh heh hopefully you could tell my comment was made with tongue firmly in cheek... I've been around the forums long enough to know not to take someone else's opinion over the evidence of my own ears. I'll be giving the S1 a listen myself before reaching any conclusions. Every system is different, every room is different and everyone has different tastes, both in music and how they like it to sound. So what doesn't work for one may be perfect for another.
Having read through the thread with interest, I'll be sure to try and set appropriate gain and loading. I have a Rothwell Headspace into the MM input on my Croft 25R and/or EAR 834, which gives me pretty decent flexibility. The other stuff you probably know about already, modded 1210 + re-wired Jelco 750D.
I do have an ADC magnesium headshell, although I don't have the AT model recommended by Marco. Will give it a go on the ADC.
Once I've had a chance to have a listen, hopefully over the weekend, I'll report back.
Good luck Nick, I hope it works out for you. I have heard the DL-S1 through a Croft and so have many other folk here on AOS and it was magnificent.
I have a Rothwell Headspace into the MM input on my Croft 25R and/or EAR 834, which gives me pretty decent flexibility. The other stuff you probably know about already, modded 1210 + re-wired Jelco 750D.
.
Nick
My kit is very similar to yours - DL-S1, SL1200, Jelco TF 950s (had the 750D prior), Croft 25RS/7 monos. I'd be surprised if you are not delighted with the S1 in your setup. Although I usually run the DL-S1 through an AU-S1 (with sublime results) I have also run the DL-S1 through a Rothwell Headspace when I was changing over from my Paradox Pulse Guard DL-103R and was very pleased with the sound.
Steve
Once I've had a chance to have a listen, hopefully over the weekend, I'll report back.
Hi Nick,
Any update on this, or did I miss it?:)
:popcorn:
Marco.
nickbaba
27-10-2018, 10:39
No Marco you didn’t miss anything, I just haven’t had the time to sit and write up my impressions until now. But I have had time to give the DL-S1 a listen over the last week, and I have come to some conclusions. Obviously any comments I make about it are in the context of my specific system and room, and ymmv.
Just for reference, my listening system currently consists of a fairly heavily modded Technics 1210 (Jelco 750D w/ Oyaide Carbon Fibre headshell and Yannis Tome silver re-wire, Paul Hynes external PSU, Mike New bearing, Funk Firm acrylic platter, Isonoe feet, Yannis Tome Silver Litz Gaia Phono cable) into a Hashimoto HM3 SUT or Rothwell Headspace into EAR 834p, Croft 25R and AD Audio re-built Radford TT100 to RFC Tannoy Cheviots with external crossovers.
Previously I had been listening to a standard DL-103 which quite suited the music I tend to enjoy, rhythmic bass-heavy electronica, 70s dub reggae, dance music and some rock stuff. More recently that was swapped out for a Denon DL-103SA which I was also enjoying very much. More refined and detailed than a standard 103 but still retaining that spherical stylus sense of weight and heft. So when the opportunity came along to hear an S1 I was very curious how it would stack up against its two Denon fellows.
Initially I swapped it for the 103-SA in the Oyaide CF headshell through the Hashimoto HM3s. First impressions were of further detail and top end air, but was it at the expense of the bottom end? Having read the previous posts in this thread I was concerned that I would be losing bass to gain high-end detail… also, as far as I know, that’s something of a characteristic of elliptical stylii, to present plenty of detail, but with less overall heft.
However my HM3s are set-up for 1:10 which is fine for my DL-103 but probably not enough gain for the lower output S1, so I swapped over to the Rothwell Headspace, which is far more flexible in gain and load. After experimenting a bit with the dip switch settings I reached a point where things were sounding pretty sweet. Lovely full mid-range and again bags of detail and a sense of openness in the
top-end. The bass was definitely there in the mix, but was still less than I was used to from the big bouncy spherical 103… time to swap back and compare. So I wired up the standard 103 and yes, there was that big bouncy bass I was used to hearing. OK, the top end now sounded like it was being painted with a decorators brush instead of a camel’s eyelash but wait… was that really deeper bass from the vinyl I was hearing, or was it just boomy bass bloom that I had gotten used to hearing? Hmmm…
There was one easy way to tell what was maybe being added to the sound by a particular cartridge, to A/B the same track on vinyl and digital. This time I fitted the S1 to an ADC magnesium headshell I had previously been using for my Dynavector Dv20x2L. I lined up 2 versions of the same track, vinyl and digital, that I could quickly switch between on inputs 1 and 2 of the Croft pre. Digital playback was 44.1k/24bit from the Cambridge Audio 851N. Track was Steve Hauschildt’s Saccade feat. Julianna Barwick, a great mix of deep electronic bottom end and airy female vocals.
I listened to the digital version first, to get a benchmark sense of the overall mix through my system. Then I spent a couple of minutes gain-matching the vinyl/digital inputs. Once I settled down to listen, the result was immediately obvious. Once properly gain-matched, when switching between the digital file and the S1 there was no difference at all that I could hear. The S1 was simply presenting the mix as honestly and as well-balanced as a studio-master recording. It was neither adding nor taking away from the mix. What I had been missing, the big bass bounce, had in fact been being added by the 103… lots of fun, but neither honest nor accurate. What I had taken to be a leaness in the S1 sound was just the lack of extra bass boom and bloom. To be honest I was a little surprised at this finding, as I had convinced myself that the elliptical stylus was ‘thin’ sounding. but I couldn’t deny the evidence of my ears. Further listening confirmed the initial impression.
(For those perhaps wondering why my vinyl system didn’t out-perform a digital playback, but merely sounded ‘the same’, well, I’m sure there are plenty of reasons, but a large one would likely be that the source track was itself a digital studio recording, so ultimately the resolution is decided by the original sample rate and bit depth.)
Having reached that conclusion I began to regard the S1 with greater respect. For those that value honesty of audio reproduction it’s very impressive. I imagine its detail and finesse would be gorgeous on acoustic music and particularly female vocals. It’s very even-handed in its presentation across the frequency spectrum, perhaps even to the point of being a little too restrained and polite-sounding for my tastes, but that could just be down to what I’m used to. It’s a cup of freshly steeped tea-leaves served in a fine china cup and saucer rather than the 3-sugar builders tea in a chipped mug that I’m used to gulping down.
However, that’s just a question of taste. It’s obviously an excellent cartridge and easily out-plays all the other carts in my small collection. For the right music it would be hard to beat and I certainly don’t see myself spending the kind of money necessary to better it. When it comes to party-time I might well find myself swapping it out for something more down and dirty, but I’m very happy to have it and it’s not going anywhere!
Nice write up Nick.
Always good to read of someone finding an item of audio gear that is perfect for them.
I like the tea analogy. :) I think I shall start likening the performance of cartridges to different tea varieties: Darjeeling; Assam; Orange Pekoe; Oolong; Lapsang Souchong, etc.
+1 on the write up.
Look forward to your report on the Hashimoto in use, if you intend to change the ratio.
nickbaba
28-10-2018, 10:09
I'm looking forward to trying Hashimotos with it. I currently have an HM7 SUT on the way to me, switchable between 1:15 and 1:30, which should match well with the S1. I'll let you know how it goes...
I have a HM-3 here being used with a Hana SL. A cartridge I bought as stepping stone, to enjoy while others were coming out of the shadows to show off their attraction.
I like the HA-3/Hana SL effect on one Phonostage so far, I have yet to connect it up to a Clones Audio PA1, and my olden world, HiFi world IC Phonostage.
Nice considered write up.
No Marco you didn’t miss anything, I just haven’t had the time to sit and write up my impressions until now. But I have had time to give the DL-S1 a listen over the last week, and I have come to some conclusions. Obviously any comments I make about it are in the context of my specific system and room, and ymmv.
Just for reference, my listening system currently consists of a fairly heavily modded Technics 1210 (Jelco 750D w/ Oyaide Carbon Fibre headshell and Yannis Tome silver re-wire, Paul Hynes external PSU, Mike New bearing, Funk Firm acrylic platter, Isonoe feet, Yannis Tome Silver Litz Gaia Phono cable) into a Hashimoto HM3 SUT or Rothwell Headspace into EAR 834p, Croft 25R and AD Audio re-built Radford TT100 to RFC Tannoy Cheviots with external crossovers.
Previously I had been listening to a standard DL-103 which quite suited the music I tend to enjoy, rhythmic bass-heavy electronica, 70s dub reggae, dance music and some rock stuff. More recently that was swapped out for a Denon DL-103SA which I was also enjoying very much. More refined and detailed than a standard 103 but still retaining that spherical stylus sense of weight and heft. So when the opportunity came along to hear an S1 I was very curious how it would stack up against its two Denon fellows.
Initially I swapped it for the 103-SA in the Oyaide CF headshell through the Hashimoto HM3s. First impressions were of further detail and top end air, but was it at the expense of the bottom end? Having read the previous posts in this thread I was concerned that I would be losing bass to gain high-end detail… also, as far as I know, that’s something of a characteristic of elliptical stylii, to present plenty of detail, but with less overall heft.
However my HM3s are set-up for 1:10 which is fine for my DL-103 but probably not enough gain for the lower output S1, so I swapped over to the Rothwell Headspace, which is far more flexible in gain and load. After experimenting a bit with the dip switch settings I reached a point where things were sounding pretty sweet. Lovely full mid-range and again bags of detail and a sense of openness in the
top-end. The bass was definitely there in the mix, but was still less than I was used to from the big bouncy spherical 103… time to swap back and compare. So I wired up the standard 103 and yes, there was that big bouncy bass I was used to hearing. OK, the top end now sounded like it was being painted with a decorators brush instead of a camel’s eyelash but wait… was that really deeper bass from the vinyl I was hearing, or was it just boomy bass bloom that I had gotten used to hearing? Hmmm…
There was one easy way to tell what was maybe being added to the sound by a particular cartridge, to A/B the same track on vinyl and digital. This time I fitted the S1 to an ADC magnesium headshell I had previously been using for my Dynavector Dv20x2L. I lined up 2 versions of the same track, vinyl and digital, that I could quickly switch between on inputs 1 and 2 of the Croft pre. Digital playback was 44.1k/24bit from the Cambridge Audio 851N. Track was Steve Hauschildt’s Saccade feat. Julianna Barwick, a great mix of deep electronic bottom end and airy female vocals.
I listened to the digital version first, to get a benchmark sense of the overall mix through my system. Then I spent a couple of minutes gain-matching the vinyl/digital inputs. Once I settled down to listen, the result was immediately obvious. Once properly gain-matched, when switching between the digital file and the S1 there was no difference at all that I could hear. The S1 was simply presenting the mix as honestly and as well-balanced as a studio-master recording. It was neither adding nor taking away from the mix. What I had been missing, the big bass bounce, had in fact been being added by the 103… lots of fun, but neither honest nor accurate. What I had taken to be a leaness in the S1 sound was just the lack of extra bass boom and bloom. To be honest I was a little surprised at this finding, as I had convinced myself that the elliptical stylus was ‘thin’ sounding. but I couldn’t deny the evidence of my ears. Further listening confirmed the initial impression.
(For those perhaps wondering why my vinyl system didn’t out-perform a digital playback, but merely sounded ‘the same’, well, I’m sure there are plenty of reasons, but a large one would likely be that the source track was itself a digital studio recording, so ultimately the resolution is decided by the original sample rate and bit depth.)
Having reached that conclusion I began to regard the S1 with greater respect. For those that value honesty of audio reproduction it’s very impressive. I imagine its detail and finesse would be gorgeous on acoustic music and particularly female vocals. It’s very even-handed in its presentation across the frequency spectrum, perhaps even to the point of being a little too restrained and polite-sounding for my tastes, but that could just be down to what I’m used to. It’s a cup of freshly steeped tea-leaves served in a fine china cup and saucer rather than the 3-sugar builders tea in a chipped mug that I’m used to gulping down.
However, that’s just a question of taste. It’s obviously an excellent cartridge and easily out-plays all the other carts in my small collection. For the right music it would be hard to beat and I certainly don’t see myself spending the kind of money necessary to better it. When it comes to party-time I might well find myself swapping it out for something more down and dirty, but I’m very happy to have it and it’s not going anywhere!
Told you you’d like it - (post 189).
The DL-S1 is IMO incredibly balanced and uncoloured in its presentation. Faithfully reproducing what the musicians/ engineers put on the vinyl- nothing added and nothing taken away. Occasionally, I feel the need for a bit of “artifice” and bring out the Paradox Pulseguard DL-103 which really boogies way down low.
If you get a chance to “borrow” a Denon AU-S1 SUT I reckon you’d be even more impressed with what the DL-S1 is capable of. As you say, at the end of the day it’s all down to personal taste- not better or worse, just different.
Excellent balanced and considered write up BTW
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
nickbaba
02-11-2018, 20:24
Thanks Stephen - yes that was my impression and with further listening continues to be, that it's very balanced and uncoloured, as you say.
I'd be interested to hear it through an AU-S1 but don't have the funds for one at the moment myself. Maybe one day.
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