View Full Version : * MINT, boxed as new, Denon DL-S1 MC cartridge - MEGA BARGAIN! *
Ladies and gentlemen,
For sale is my low-hours, minty-mint, boxed as new Denon DL-S1. It should go to a good home because, as I'm streaming more of my music now, digitally, I'm playing less vinyl these days than I used to.
Those of you who heard me demonstrate this cartridge, on my turntable, at one of the NEBO events, or have heard or used one themselves, know how special it, and every other one of its type sounds, possessing the richness and 'soul' of a DL-103, but with the sweetness, sparkle and (quite frankly) staggering wide-open resolution and filigree detailing, produced only by the very best high-end moving coils.
Make no mistake, this is a £3k low-output MC cartridge in ALL but price, and crucially, rarely come up for sale in this condition. Those of you who know me, will know that every piece of equipment I own is treated with the greatest of care, so whoever is lucky enough to become the new owner of this superb cartridge, should be rest assured that it plays beautifully and that the stylus and cantilever are in perfect condition.
As you will see from the pictures below, it comes with all of its original packaging, which is as good as the day I received it, and as an added incentive (if indeed any were needed), I'm including in the sale a set of Dynavector 6N headshell leads, which themselves are worth £35. These match superbly well, sonically, with the DL-S1.
If you can find a brand new one for sale, you can expect to pay upwards of £950.00. However, as ever when I sell things on here, I offer them at an attractive price for AoS members, to allow someone lucky to pick up a genuine BARGAIN. Therefore, I'm asking for £620.00 DELIVERED to any mainland UK address. Shipping abroad is welcome, but will be subject to an extra charge, and advised to the buyer at the point of sale.
Interested parties should either reply here or via PM. But HURRY, because I'm not expecting this one to hang around for long!! Requests for purchase will be treated strictly on a first come, first served basis, so whoever posts here or PMs me FIRST, expressing their interest to purchase, gets it.
Some pics to titillate your tastebuds:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/2Zrfph.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/frGKF3.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/BiqWRB.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/GWwI82.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/6ooxTr.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/olfC0h.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/921/8PVbBE.jpg
GOOD LUCK, and prepare to rediscover your record collection!! :cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
07-10-2018, 20:42
Pm incoming
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Sold to Oliver! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Bigman80
07-10-2018, 23:01
Kontrapunkt b Vs Denon DL-S1.
Wow!....... Looking forward to that already.
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mad-moon
07-10-2018, 23:20
I'll have a tenner on the Kontrapunkt B to win...what odds can I have..?
Ha ha, I was just about to say. If you like MC cartridges - this is the one to have! The best MC I have heard by far.
Well done Oli it is a truly superb cartridge. You had a flavour with the 301 but the DL -S1 moves everything to a much higher level.
Will be interesting how it compares with the KB!:)
It'll be back up before Xmas [emoji23]
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 06:52
I'll have a tenner on the Kontrapunkt B to win...what odds can I have..?I think the Kb will take something very special to beat it. Could this be a contender? I don't know, but I had to give it a try.
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Bigman80
08-10-2018, 06:56
Ha ha, I was just about to say. If you like MC cartridges - this is the one to have! The best MC I have heard by far.
Well done Oli it is a truly superb cartridge. You had a flavour with the 301 but the DL -S1 moves everything to a much higher level.
Will be interesting how it compares with the KB!:)Cheers Jim,
I only bought because of your opinion on it so if it's shit its your fault [emoji1787][emoji1787]
Just kidding, I wanted to try one. I like the 301 but it had nowhere near the quality of the Kb so it makes an interesting comparison piece. They don't pop up all that often in the UK so when one with Marcos seal of approval came up I had to pull the trigger.
It's not the right time for me to be spending large sums of money so Mikey could be right about it being for sale before Christmas. Save your pennies folks, either this or the Kontrapunkt will be up for sale soon!!!!!
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It's not the right time for me to be spending large sums of money so Mikey could be right about it being for sale before Christmas. Save your pennies folks, either this or the Kontrapunkt will be up for sale soon!!!!!
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I'm not sure whether I hope it's better or not, on one hand I nearly bought it to try but I've a big spend coming up soon with my crossovers, and I'm trying to cut down on this spending madness and just enjoy the music, which I am immensely, but on the other, I own a Kb and I'll kick myself every so slightly if you think the S1 betters it. I did like my Zu Denon 103 though and still miss it.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 07:07
I'm not sure whether I hope it's better or not, on one hand I nearly bought it to try but I've a big spend coming up soon with my crossovers, and I'm trying to cut down on this spending madness and just enjoy the music, which I am immensely, but on the other, I own a Kb and I'll kick myself every so slightly if you think the S1 betters it. I did like my Zu Denon 103 though and still miss it.I know what you mean mate. I'm having some work issues currently. Instability in the workplace so I've been collecting money at a decent rate just in case things go tits up. A big spend like this really came at the wrong time but sometimes you just have to throw caution to the wind.
I adore the Kb. It's a wonderful cartridge and only bettered by one Cartridges that I've heard. Unfortunately that cartridge NEVER comes up for sale.
I widened the net a few days ago about what cartridges I think could be an improvement and the this was one. Sods law it came up for sale yesterday. I had to buy it. Whether it will beat the Kb, I am unsure but at least now I can find out. Then there will only be two cartridges I'd like to try instead of the three I earmarked. It's all working towards no more spending. Everything else is settled now.
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I know what you mean mate. I'm having some work issues currently. Instability in the workplace so I've been collecting money at a decent rate just in case things go tits up. A big spend like this really came at the wrong time but sometimes you just have to throw caution to the wind.
I adore the Kb. It's a wonderful cartridge and only bettered by one Cartridges that I've heard. Unfortunately that cartridge NEVER comes up for sale.
I widened the net a few days ago about what cartridges I think could be an improvement and the this was one. Sods law it came up for sale yesterday. I had to buy it. Whether it will beat the Kb, I am unsure but at least now I can find out. Then there will only be two cartridges I'd like to try instead of the three I earmarked. It's all working towards no more spending. Everything else is settled now.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using TapatalkThis pretty much the situation I'm in audio wise.
Ali Tait
08-10-2018, 07:12
Oli, don’t be too quick to judge it as they can be a nightmare to set up correctly- I have one and they have to be absolutely spot on otherwise it doesn’t sound anything special. You’ll know when you hit the sweet spot though!
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 07:18
This pretty much the situation I'm in audio wise.I feared the worst when I had to sell my FB-MONOS earlier this year. Car failed the MOT and the rumblings at work were already beginning. I had the Monarchy Audio SM-70 so I was ok. Things then took an upturn audio wise when the Krell turned up. That was another huge investment (for me) but it's been one that's worked out wonderfully.
I'm settled now, TT, arm, phonostage, amplifier, cables, speakers, Preamp are all at a level I think would compare well against anything. My only want was an Ortofon Vienna but it isn't going to happen. There are just too few around and people don't sell them, rightly so.
Once the Kb has had a bit of competition I'll be happy. It's just a case of seeing where it stands in the cartridge world. The DL-S1 is highly regarded. I was looking at an Ortofon Winfield but that is just the wrong price at the minute.
Whatever ends up staying will eventually go up against the Winfield though. I will have one.
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Bigman80
08-10-2018, 07:19
Oli, don’t be too quick to judge it as they can be a nightmare to set up correctly- I have one and they have to be absolutely spot on otherwise it doesn’t sound anything special. You’ll know when you hit the sweet spot though!Ok mate, any tips? What can I expect?
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Ok mate, any tips? What can I expect?
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk0.1g tracking, tail up as high as you can get it and lean it to the left, then pm me with a price [emoji23]
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 08:13
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
0.1g tracking, tail up as high as you can get it and lean it to the left, then pm me with a price [emoji23]
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nickbaba
08-10-2018, 08:17
Hi Oliver if you do decide to sell it on then I'd definitely be up for taking it off your hands. ;)
cheers Nick
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 08:21
The Denon? If so you can have first refusal mate.
O
Hi Oliver if you do decide to sell it on then I'd definitely be up for taking it off your hands. ;)
cheers Nick
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Hahaha.... Worry not, it's not that hard to get singing! You'll know all you need to know later dude, when I PM you:cool:
The key things are to use it with a high-gain phono stage/and or head amp/SUT, not too heavy an arm, and preferably one with a detachable headshell, so you can optimise the mass (doesn't like too much, but likes a nice rigid, well-damped headshell, such as Denon's own NOS or AT MG-10), then track it towards the upper end of the recommended range (1.4g), set anti-skate at 1.2g, and with VTA bang on level, and azimuth *completely* spot on.
Right, time for some breakfast - I need caffeine!:D
Marco.
RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 08:30
In the same boat as you know Oli, Work etc.
I'm currently in between jobs after moving on from my last place after 13.5 years so like you will have to reign it in.
That said, I'm not a worrier and trust that it will be well https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4%3A6-7&version=NIV
Dont get me wrong, there will be a level of caution BUT it wont stop me pursuing those hifi aims I've earmarked.
Some things will be sold as contribution towards cost and achieving that - interesting times ahead ;)
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 08:33
I think I can check pretty much all of that off the list.
Just setup then!!
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Firebottle
08-10-2018, 08:43
Right, time for some breakfast - I need caffeine!:D
You're a bit late mate, I've had three cups of coffee by now :)
RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 08:46
You're a bit late mate, I've had three cups of coffee by now :)
lol - Cant beat it. Just had mine with a lightly buttered hot cross bun, with a few small slices of cheddar inside - lurvly ! :)
nickbaba
08-10-2018, 08:49
Yep, the Denon.
I'll take that first refusal, thanks. Just PM me if you decide to move it on.
cheers Nick
You're a bit late mate, I've had three cups of coffee by now :)
Lol - only got up at 8.45am.
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 09:00
In the same boat as you know Oli, Work etc.
I'm currently in between jobs after moving on from my last place after 13.5 years so like you will have to reign it in.
That said, I'm not a worrier and trust that it will be well https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4%3A6-7&version=NIV
Dont get me wrong, there will be a level of caution BUT it wont stop me pursuing those hifi aims I've earmarked.
Some things will be sold as contribution towards cost and achieving that - interesting times ahead ;)Thanks for the verse Robbie. It's a tough time living in uncertainty so any positivity is gratefully received.
You'll be employed in no time mate, no doubt.
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RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 09:01
Whats you're main cart gonna be then Marco ?
Surprised you're streaming more, that said I know there's a place for both. I'm just vinyl addicted and 'stuck' to be honest :)
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 09:01
Yep, the Denon.
I'll take that first refusal, thanks. Just PM me if you decide to move it on.
cheers NickNo worries,
I'll let you know either way. I'm not prepared to disrupt my setup and try different arms, headshells etc, so if I can't get it to sing, it'll be on the way.
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walpurgis
08-10-2018, 09:02
Lol - only got up at 8.45am.
Marco.
I was about to go to the doctor's then :).
Oli whats your MC phono stage like with low output cartridges because this will be where the DL-S1 needs a little help after setting it up perfectly. Marco will definitely be the man to help you discover its magic.
I have heard this cartridge a couple of times and spent an evening at a NEBO utterly enthralled at its ability.
Whats you're main cart gonna be then Marco ?
Surprised you're streaming more, that said I know there's a place for both. I'm just vinyl addicted and 'stuck' to be honest :)
get streaming right and it can be very good. obviously its a personal thing to a point. but, theres nothing quite like the expectation when putting a bit of black on the platter psychologically anyway.
Ali Tait
08-10-2018, 09:14
No tips as such really, just keep fiddling with VTA and VTF if it’s not quite hitting the mark, and make sure azimuth s spot on.
For me I’ve never come across a cart that was as fussy as this one about setup, I haven’t played with as many as Marco though. As I said though, you’ll know immediately when you get it just right. These are great carts.
Also as said, these are low output so you need a lot of gain.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 09:17
Oli whats your MC phono stage like with low output cartridges because this will be where the DL-S1 needs a little help after setting it up perfectly. Marco will definitely be the man to help you discover its magic.
I have heard this cartridge a couple of times and spent an evening at a NEBO utterly enthralled at its ability.There is lots of gain and more available at the request of my tame EE, Mr Firebottle [emoji23]
Seriously, I have to turn the pre amp down before I play a cd so there is plenty of gain.
I have used Low output cartridges with the the Bigbottle phonostage (ex Wizard) and had no issues whatsoever. The AT-ART7 being one of note, also the Denon 304 (?) Which is ridiculously low.
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RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 09:18
Thanks for the verse Robbie. It's a tough time living in uncertainty so any positivity is gratefully received.
You'll be employed in no time mate, no doubt.
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You're welcome Oli,
You're a good guy and the Kings got your back, trust me on that. HE is the rock and firmest foundation, no matter the season...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+31%3A8&version=NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+1%3A7&version=KJV
The times remain uncertain but HE changeth not - faithful, supreme and sovereign over all things, all situations ....
Stay blessed :)
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 09:19
You're welcome Oli,
You're a good guy and the Kings got your back, trust me on that. HE is the rock and firmest foundation, no matter the season...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+31%3A8&version=NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+1%3A7&version=KJV
The times remain uncertain but HE changeth not - faithful, supreme and sovereign over all things, all situations ....
Stay blessed :)Cheers mate, you too!!
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Hope your job situation improves soon too matey, but in the meantime the Denon will chase the blues away!:eyebrows:
Your arm has a detachable headshell, yeah?
If so, and in order to eradicate as many variables as possible, I'll loan you a headshell that I *know* it likes (Audio Technica MG-10), which you can fit the cartridge to, and if you prefer it to any of the others you've got, it'll be available for sale (won't be much). The key thing with that headshell is its magnesium construction and the high-damping properties it offers.
I presume you've got some nice non-magnetic stainless steel Allen bolts? Those are the only things I use to affix cartridges to headshells, as they're far superior to anything else. If not, I'll pop some in:)
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 09:54
Hope your job situation improves soon too matey, but in the meantime the Denon will chase the blues away!:eyebrows:
Your arm has a detachable headshell, yeah?
If so, and in order to eradicate as many variables as possible, I'll loan you a headshell that I *know* it likes (Audio Technica MG-10), which you can fit the cartridge to, and if you prefer it to any of the others you've got, it'll be available for sale (won't be much).
I presume you've got some nice non-magnetic stainless steel Allen bolts? Those are the only things I use to affix cartridges to headshells, as they're far superior to anything else. If not, I'll pop some in:)
Marco.Marco, I have two AT headshells and I'm pretty sure one of them is 10g so should be ok in that respect. They are the high quality magnesium ones so I suspect it's the same as the one you mention.
I don't have bolts so they would be much appreciated. Thanks mate.
I'm hoping the blues sounds great [emoji6]
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Bigman80
08-10-2018, 09:58
This one. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/0232d99309ba131a224faeb427dcde5b.jpg
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That looks like an LT-12 (or similar, mate). If so, it's not magnesium; it's aluminium, which is a different ballgame entirely (much more resonant). Solid magnesium headshells are hard to find. The only one I know of that's available new is the AT MG-10. The others are generally NOS varieties, from the 80s.
SME use magnesium to construct their arms (and fixed headshells), for good reason. I'll pop in an MG-10 and some Allen bolts. I presume you have a selection of different sized Allen keys?:)
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 10:10
That looks like an LT-12 (or similar, mate). If so, it's not magnesium; it's aluminium, which is a different ballgame entirely (much more resonant). Solid magnesium headshells are hard to find. The only one I know of that's available new is the AT MG-10. The others are generally NOS varieties, from the 80s.
SME use magnesium to construct their arms (and fixed headshells), for good reason. I'll pop in the MG-10 and some Allen bolts. I presume you have a selection of spanners?:)
Marco.I do mate. I am pretty sure it's a MG12 but pop one in, I can always post it back.
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The model number should be written on the top of the headshell in white, unless it's been rubbed off. However, I've got lots of experience with these things and I'm 95% certain the one you have is from the LT range of AT headshells (1980s vintage), which are made from aluminium, not magnesium.
I'm pretty sure there was no MG-12, only an MG-10.
When you get the MG-10, you'll be able to tell the difference from the feel of both headshells. Magnesium is softer and much more tactile, aluminium is harder and more 'metallic'.
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 10:29
Ok mate, I'll have a butchers when I get back. I had them off Phonomac and he only used the Magnesium ones. I'll have a look when I get back and let you know.
The model number should be written on the top of the headshell in white, unless it's been rubbed off. However, I've got lots of experience with these things and I'm 95% certain the one you have is from the LT range of AT headshells (1980s vintage), which are made from aluminium, not magnesium.
When you get the MG-10, you'll be able to tell the difference from the feel of both headshells. Magnesium is softer and much more tactile, aluminium is harder and more 'metallic'.
Marco.
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No worries, mate. A lot of folk get mixed up and *think* that the aluminium ones are Magnesium, when that's not the case. Only if it's got MG written on the headshell will it be made from Magnesium.
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 10:57
No worries, mate. A lot of folk get mixed up and *think* that the aluminium ones are Magnesium, when that's not the case. Only if it's got MG written on the headshell will it be made from Magnesium.
Marco.So what's MS?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/9d6ff29dbbecaf33748bf73c13cf2ba6.jpg
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not seen that before.. only one i knew of was a mg10. interesting headshell
Think that headshell will have magnesium written on underside?
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 11:04
not seen that before.. only one i knew of was a mg10. interesting headshellMe too! I'll have to Google it [emoji23]
Have this one too. Has to be Magnesium, it says so lol
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/071e0ef2a83408585c520aa5c37b0d00.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/2dd7d63d88f11e12f9c57139095973ba.jpg
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Bigman80
08-10-2018, 11:05
Think that headshell will of magnesium written on underside?I'll have a look mate, give me a minute.
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I think it is Magnesium and has azimuth adjustment.
The easy way to tell is to look underneath as I believe they have Magnesium written on there some where.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 11:09
I think it is Magnesium and has azimuth adjustment.
The easy way to tell is to look underneath as I believe they have Magnesium written on there some where.Cheers Kevin, I'm just off to have a look. Will post a picture as soon as I get to the turntable!!
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I'm pretty sure this is what you've got, Ollie:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/Q8jreK.jpg
In which case it's made from a form of die-cast aluminium, as is the MS range. As others have said, it'll only be magnesium if it's stamped as such on the underside of the headshell, and/or the model number is prefixed with 'MG' (to reflect the periodic table, Mg).
The most relevant point, however, is that aluminium and magnesium headshells sound markedly different, due to their respective resonance properties. IME, magnesium is MUCH better. The ultimate is titanium.
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 11:14
I'm pretty sure this is what you've got, Ollie:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/Q8jreK.jpg
In which case it's made from a form of die-cast aluminium, as is the MS range. As others have said, it'll only be magnesium if it's stamped as such on the underside of the headshell, or the model number is prefixed with 'MG' (to reflect the periodic table, Mg).
The most relevant point, however, is that aluminium and magnesium headshells sound markedly different, due to their respective resonance properties. IME, magnesium is MUCH better. The ultimate is titanium.
Marco.Says Magnesium on the underside mate. I had them both of Angus (Phonomac) and remember him telling me they were magnesium.
I can't find any info on an MS-9 though. Strange!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/1bcd975b6874c098f65cc0213a8af829.jpg
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Fair enough... It can get confusing. I'll still send you the MS-10, to try, as I'm not big on the rubber inlay on top. I've used those before and prefer the ones without it. Just heading to the PO now to send it:)
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 11:27
Fair enough... It can get confusing. I'll still send you the MS-10, to try, as I'm not big on the rubber inlay on top. I've used those before and prefer the ones without it. Just heading to the PO now to send it:)
Marco.Ok mate, I'll give it a run out against the others I have!
Exciting!!!!! [emoji41]
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Well done oli, if it sounds like the 103sa but with more detail you’ll be onto a winner.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 12:32
Well done oli, if it sounds like the 103sa but with more detail you’ll be onto a winner.Cheers mate, I'm not sure what to expect from it as I've only heard the 304, 301 and 103. The 304 was excellent but lacked dynamics in the long term.
It's got a stiff test against the Kontrapunkt b so it'll be interesting.
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A post with details on the MS-9, by someone familiar to you.http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/what-model-audio-technica-headshell-is-this.495215/
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 12:58
A post with details on the MS-9, by someone familiar to you.http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/what-model-audio-technica-headshell-is-this.495215/Ah! I knew Angus was the AT guru lol. Does seem to have all the information.
Link to the MS series here:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ei=7Rc5T7TsN8nC0QW6v9m_Ag&hl=en&nv=1&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daudio%2Btechnica%2Bat-ml180%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1R2A DFA_enGB470%26biw%3D1620%26bih%3D774%26prmd%3Dimvn s&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDAtechnica/SHELL-MS.html&xid=17259,15700023,15700122,15700124,15700149,1570 0186,15700191,15700201,15700214&usg=ALkJrhiNLb83F1gP7ZENELleZSmoPPKMsQ
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RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 13:30
Ah! I knew Angus was the AT guru lol. Does seem to have all the information.
Link to the MS series here:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ei=7Rc5T7TsN8nC0QW6v9m_Ag&hl=en&nv=1&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daudio%2Btechnica%2Bat-ml180%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1R2A DFA_enGB470%26biw%3D1620%26bih%3D774%26prmd%3Dimvn s&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDAtechnica/SHELL-MS.html&xid=17259,15700023,15700122,15700124,15700149,1570 0186,15700191,15700201,15700214&usg=ALkJrhiNLb83F1gP7ZENELleZSmoPPKMsQ
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Yep, He knows his stuf that man Angus-Phonomac does.
It was he who pointed me to the AT MS magnesium headshells.
I use the MS-8 (8 gram which keeps me nicely in the optimum resonance range).
They are superb ! Magnesium, my fave headshell material, with excellent adjustment capabilty - azimuth, overhang etc, just great to use.
Glad that's cleared up, then!:) Still prefer the plain MG-10 though, without the rubberised strip.
Will be interesting to know what you think of the DL-S1. Haven't heard a Kontrapunkt for years, but Denon MCs, in comparison with Ortofons, tend to sound more fluid and expressive, and tonally slightly richer.
The midrange and top-end of the DL-S1, for me however, is really quite special and not something I've heard equalled on any MCs I've used, even SPUs. The top-end manages a unique trick of being wide-open and hugely extended, but sweet as a nut, without the slightest sense of sterility or it being 'in yer face'.
All the detail is there, but it doesn't 'push' it at you, in the false way of many other MCs, or sound artificially 'impressive' either. When partnered and set up optimally, it's simply a thoroughly revealing and musical sounding device, capable of excelling with all genres of music.
Marco.
phonomac
08-10-2018, 14:29
Just to add to the AT headshell data, M means magnesium, L means aluminium. G or T mean fixed (non-adjustable) headshells, and S means adjustable for both azimuth and overhang.
Cheers, Angus. So are all the G, T or S prefixed headshells magnesium or aluminium, and if it's the former, are they all stamped as such underneath? Hopefully so, as otherwise you wouldn't know:)
Marco.
Soz Rob, missed this earlier:
Whats you're main cart gonna be then Marco ?
Surprised you're streaming more, that said I know there's a place for both.
For the moment, a NOS 1980s vintage DL-103 (the earlier ones, produced by Nippon Columbia, sound better than current production models), mounted in this rather posh solid-titanium AT headshell, with built-in Hanenite damping:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/gPp4XQ.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/XC3O3b.jpg
It's beautifully constructed, and rather high-mass, which suits the DL-103 perfectly. Plus, I'm also using it with some solid ebony decoupling spacers, which address the resonant nature of the 103's stock body-shell. It sounds stunning!:)
Streaming more, simply due to the fact that since installing a second system (AV/music set-up) downstairs in the lounge, I'm listening to music there more, as it's a more comfortable space, especially in the wintertime, being next to the wood burner, rather than being more isolated upstairs. It also means that Del and I can listen to music together better, whilst sharing a bottle of wine, etc:cool:
However, I've now got speaker cables in place, running underneath the floorboards from upstairs, to downstairs in the lounge (neatly done so you can't see the cables), which is connected to the system upstairs, via the Copper amp (and the rest of the system there, Croft preamp, Sony CDP and DAC and my Techy), which means all I need to do is plug the other ends of the cables into my Celestion 15XRs, and I can hear how that system sounds downstairs in the lounge, as well as of course vinyl, played on the Techy.
It's a handy set-up too, for doing any blind-testing (with cables or whatever), as Del (or when any of my friends visit) can change over cables upstairs, without me knowing which ones are being swapped in or out, and I can judge the results downstairs, completely divorced from any expectation bias. The same, of course, can be done with any equipment tested.
Marco.
RobbieGong
08-10-2018, 15:24
Soz Rob, missed this earlier:
For the moment, a NOS 1980s vintage DL-103 (the earlier ones, produced by Nippon Columbia, sound better than current production models), mounted in this rather posh solid-titanium AT headshell, with built-in Hanenite damping:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/gPp4XQ.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/XC3O3b.jpg
It's beautifully constructed, and rather high-mass, which suits the DL-103 perfectly. Plus, I'm also using it with some solid ebony decoupling spacers, which address the resonant nature of the 103's stock body-shell. It sounds stunning!:)
Streaming more, simply due to the fact that since installing a second system (AV/music set-up) downstairs in the lounge, I'm listening to music there more, as it's a more comfortable space, especially in the wintertime, being next to the wood burner, rather than being more isolated upstairs. It also means that Del and I can listen to music together better, whilst sharing a bottle of wine, etc:cool:
However, I've now got speaker cables in place, running underneath the floorboards from upstairs, to downstairs in the lounge (neatly done so you can't see the cables), which is connected to the system upstairs, via the Copper amp (and the rest of the system there, Croft preamp, Sony CDP and DAC and my Techy), which means all I need to do is plug the other ends of the cables into my Celestion 15XRs, and I can hear how that system sounds downstairs in the lounge, as well as of course vinyl, played on the Techy.
It's a handy set-up too, for doing any blind-testing (with cables or whatever), as Del (or when any of my friends visit) can change over cables upstairs, without me knowing which ones are being swapped in or out, and I can judge the results downstairs, completely divorced from any expectation bias. The same, of course, can be done with any equipment tested.
Marco.
Excellent all round Marco, cant argue with any of that :thumbsup:
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 16:10
Glad that's cleared up, then!:) Still prefer the plain MG-10 though, without the rubberised strip.
Will be interesting to know what you think of the DL-S1. Haven't heard a Kontrapunkt for years, but Denon MCs, in comparison with Ortofons, tend to sound more fluid and expressive, and tonally slightly richer.
The midrange and top-end of the DL-S1, for me however, is really quite special and not something I've heard equalled on any MCs I've used, even SPUs. The top-end manages a unique trick of being wide-open and hugely extended, but sweet as a nut, without the slightest sense of sterility or it being 'in yer face'.
All the detail is there, but it doesn't 'push' it at you, in the false way of many other MCs, or sound artificially 'impressive' either. When partnered and set up optimally, it's simply a thoroughly revealing and musical sounding device, capable of excelling with all genres of music.
Marco.It's going to be a very close call I think. I get what you mean about cartridges "pushing" the treble but it's not something I've felt the Kb is guilty of. I feel the amplification has a bit to do with that too.
Tonally, I agree that the Denon carts are usually a bit richer but it's about what sounds natural. Coming from long term AT and Ortofon use, it may seem too rich now. That's something that will have to be heard to be judged. Oddly, the 304 is a different animal from the usual Denon house sound.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
phonomac
08-10-2018, 16:12
Cheers, Angus. So are all the G, T or S prefixed headshells magnesium or aluminium, and if it's the former, are they all stamped as such underneath? Hopefully so, as otherwise you wouldn't know:)
Marco.
Hello Marco,
I have MS-9, MS-10 and MS-11 and they all have magnesium cast into the underside. I also have an LS-12 which is adjustable like the other S types but is aluminium, and has no material name on the underside.
regards
Angus
It's going to be a very close call I think. I get what you mean about cartridges "pushing" the treble but it's not something I've felt the Kb is guilty of.
No, not from my memories of it, and that's because it's an 'old school' Ortofon MC, from an era before they changed the voicing of their cartridges, to have a cooler and more upfront sonic signature. I also liked the Rohmann and MC20 and MC30.
However, the current cartridges from Ortofon, out with of the SPUs, leave me rather cold, as for me they sound too much like hi-fi and not like real music, designed to appeal to measurists more than music lovers - and that's fundamentally NOT what I (or indeed the DL-S1) are about:)
The vast majority of AT cartridges simply aren't for me, just too lean and 'etched' sounding for my tastes. The AT33PTG was about the best of the bunch. Utterly detest the OC-9. Horrid, bright, spotlit sounding thing with no proper bass!
With a very neutral sounding, direct-drive T/T, such as an SP10 (or SL-1200), which can be tend towards coolness/sterility, if partnered with the wrong arm or cartridge, you have to bear that in mind with your cartridge choice, and not over-egg the pudding in that respect. That's why I've had great success with DL103s (and the DL-S1) on my Techy. It's a ying/yang thing, like successfully marrying the flavours of ingredients in a recipe....
For longterm listening satisfaction you've got to achieve synergy!;)
Marco.
Hello Marco,
I have MS-9, MS-10 and MS-11 and they all have magnesium cast into the underside. I also have an LS-12 which is adjustable like the other S types but is aluminium, and has no material name on the underside.
regards
Angus
Nice one, Angus. Cheers:thumbsup:
Marco.
No, not from my memories of it, and that's because it's an 'old school' Ortofon MC, from an era before they changed the voicing of their cartridges, to have a cooler and more upfront sonic signature. I also liked the Rohmann and MC20 and MC30.
However, the current cartridges from Ortofon, out with of the SPUs, leave me rather cold, as for me they sound too much like hi-fi and not like real music, designed to appeal to measurists more than music lovers - and that's fundamentally NOT what I (or indeed the DL-S1) are about:)
With a very neutral sounding, direct-drive T/T, such as an SP10 (or SL-1200), which can be tend to coolness/sterility if partnered with the wrong arm or cartridge, you have to bear that in mind with your cartridge choice, and not over-egg the pudding in that respect. That's why I've had great success with DL103s (and the DL-S1) on my Techy.
For longterm listening satisfaction you've got to achieve synergy!;)
Marco.
Synergy is everything at the end of the day in a system hence why my 2M sounds so good. I know your not a fan Marco and appreciate where you are coming from BUT in my system it delivers the goods which has been heard by quite a few folk here. My system needs that extra oomph and lift in the top end and something with real dynamic power as my speakers are not the brightest. In your system it may sound horrible, maybe we will see one day!
My memory of the DL-S1 is that of a cartridge that has almost everything, excitement, dynamics, a beautiful top end and a delivery of detail that matches my 2M but in a more restrained way. I think it's a truthful cartridge that sounds natural and full but certainly not bloated. I feel it may make the KB sound a little lifeless by comparison but I maybe sticking my neck out here, Oliver will know the truth when he hears it and may differ in opinion.
When I heard it a NEBO it was not in an optimised system as the only bit that was was your deck and I think head amp, everything else was thrown together but using Nicks phono stage and I think Alan's Avondale amps were not bad company. Who can forget that sound through the Crusader 3 speakers -utterly thrilling and utterly compelling!:)
The DL-S1 is a sublime cartridge.
Synergy is everything at the end of the day in a system hence why my 2M sounds so good. I know your not a fan Marco and appreciate where you are coming from BUT in my system it delivers the goods which has been heard by quite a few folk here. My system needs that extra oomph and lift in the top end and something with real dynamic power as my speakers are not the brightest. In your system it may sound horrible, maybe we will see one day!
Yeah, Jimbo, defo:)
I do agree with and appreciate what you're saying. "Extra oomph and lift in the top end" is *precisely* what modern Ortofons (MMs and MCs) do, and is also fundamentally NOT what my system needs, as it majors naturally on that type of crystalline clarity and 'balls', without needing any extra help in that area!:eyebrows:
Spendors (although curiously not the SP100s I had), especially today's models, are a little restrained and 'conservative' sounding, overall, so I totally get where you're coming from. For me, that type of voicing and obvious coloration would be undesirable, as I prefer a 'wide-open window' onto the music, warts and all/take no prisoners type of presentation, especially from speakers, but tempered with an unforced ease/natural tonality, in order to achieve musicality and promote long listening sessions without fatigue.
It's a tricky balance to get right, but it can be done if the right choices and combinations of kit are made. I've been at this game, in a serious way, since the early 80s, so I've had plenty of time (and learned from my mistakes along the way) to get it right!:cool:
Yeah it was a special sound that time at NEBO, and one of those rare occasions where everything just 'clicked'. The big thing there, for me, aside from the talents of the DL-S1, was just how important it is to spend SERIOUS money on a top-notch phono stage (which is where in my opinion many vinyl-based set ups fall down), as both Nick G's and mine, which were demonstrated, cost multiple thousands - and for the RIGHT reasons, i.e. what was under the hood!
If you truly want to hear vinyl at its best, and experience the kind of magic we heard at NEBO, it simply *cannot* be done on the cheap.
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 18:22
No, not from my memories of it, and that's because it's an 'old school' Ortofon MC, from an era before they changed the voicing of their cartridges, to have a cooler and more upfront sonic signature. I also liked the Rohmann and MC20 and MC30.
However, the current cartridges from Ortofon, out with of the SPUs, leave me rather cold, as for me they sound too much like hi-fi and not like real music, designed to appeal to measurists more than music lovers - and that's fundamentally NOT what I (or indeed the DL-S1) are about:)
The vast majority of AT cartridges simply aren't for me, just too lean and 'etched' sounding for my tastes. The AT33PTG was about the best of the bunch. Utterly detest the OC-9. Horrid, bright, spotlit sounding thing with no proper bass!
With a very neutral sounding, direct-drive T/T, such as an SP10 (or SL-1200), which can be tend towards coolness/sterility, if partnered with the wrong arm or cartridge, you have to bear that in mind with your cartridge choice, and not over-egg the pudding in that respect. That's why I've had great success with DL103s (and the DL-S1) on my Techy. It's a ying/yang thing, like successfully marrying the flavours of ingredients in a recipe....
For longterm listening satisfaction you've got to achieve synergy!;)
Marco.
I agree about the SP10 being neutral/transparent and yes, i see the point about coolness from cartridges. The Denon 304 left me feeling very much like that. The KB cab have a lean-ness at times but usually i find it's due to the material or the mix. It's going to be a very interesting few days having a listen to both. At some point i may draft in some help to assess if it's really close lol
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 18:29
Synergy is everything at the end of the day in a system hence why my 2M sounds so good. I know your not a fan Marco and appreciate where you are coming from BUT in my system it delivers the goods which has been heard by quite a few folk here. My system needs that extra oomph and lift in the top end and something with real dynamic power as my speakers are not the brightest. In your system it may sound horrible, maybe we will see one day!
My memory of the DL-S1 is that of a cartridge that has almost everything, excitement, dynamics, a beautiful top end and a delivery of detail that matches my 2M but in a more restrained way. I think it's a truthful cartridge that sounds natural and full but certainly not bloated. *I feel it may make the KB sound a little lifeless by comparison but I maybe sticking my neck out here, Oliver will know the truth when he hears it and may differ in opinion*.
When I heard it a NEBO it was not in an optimised system as the only bit that was was your deck and I think head amp, everything else was thrown together but using Nicks phono stage and I think Alan's Avondale amps were not bad company. Who can forget that sound through the Crusader 3 speakers -utterly thrilling and utterly compelling!:)
Believe me, Jim. I want the DL-S1 to show me everything i've been missing! Problem is, can it?!! The Stylus profile suggests the Kb should lead on detail but its where the magic happens that matters. What is it going to do that the Kb doesn't and vice versa. It's an intriguing cartridge and being so sought after, one that deserves an audition.
I've been preparing for the slugfest by listening to the Kb for most of the day with lots of varied material, making notes on it's strengths and what i enjoy most about it. Tomorrow, the DL-S1 will take the lead and i'll spend some time preparing it and ensuring it's running in its ideal position. Once done, the battle commences.......there can be only one winner.
I agree about the SP10 being neutral/transparent and yes, i see the point about coolness from cartridges. The Denon 304 left me feeling very much like that. The KB cab have a lean-ness at times but usually i find it's due to the material or the mix. It's going to be a very interesting few days having a listen to both. At some point i may draft in some help to assess if it's really close lol
Yups... However, I'm not expecting it to be close, in terms of the respective sonic/musical presentations of both cartridges. You will almost certainly hear notable differences between both. What only you can answer though, is which you prefer!
Forget about the stylus profile thing, as the 'special elliptical' version on the DL-S1, for me does everything in the detail stakes that any fine-line can muster (and arguably more), but simply in a more natural, unforced way.
If you want to focus on specs and play 'Top Trumps', the key figures to observe [in terms of them likely translating into obvious audible differences] are the respective frequency ranges and channel separation of both cartridges...
Denon DL-S1:
- Output voltage: 0.15mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-70kHz
- Recommended load impedance: Over 100 ohms
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: < 1db
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: > 28dB
- Stylus tip: 0.07 x 0.07 mm square solid diamond
- Compliance: 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne
- Recommended tracking force: (1.3g +/- 0.2g)
Ortofon Kontrapunkt B:
Output voltage at 1000 Hz, 5cm/sec. - 0,47 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz - < 1,5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz - > 25 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz - > 18 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB - 20-50.000 Hz
Frequency response - 20-20.000 Hz + 2,5 /-1 dB
Tracking ability at 315Hz at recommended tracking force - 80 µm
Compliance, dynamic, lateral - 12 µm/mN
Stylus type - Nude FG 80 / Ruby cantilever
With the right recordings, the extra top-end extension of the DL-S1 should manifest itself in bringing extra 'life' to music, much in the same way as does a super-tweeter to a pair of suitable loudspeakers, and the superior channel separation should give a better stereo effect and wider soundstage.
However, those are only 'hi-fiisms', the important thing is how both cartridges 'connect' you with the music!:)
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 19:17
Yups... However, I'm not expecting it to be close, in terms of the respective sonic/musical presentations of both cartridges. You will almost certainly hear notable differences between both. What only you can answer though, is which you prefer!
Forget about the stylus profile thing, as the 'special elliptical' version on the DL-S1, for me does everything in the detail stakes that any fine-line can muster (and arguably more), but simply in a more natural, unforced way.
If you want to focus on specs and play 'Top Trumps', the key figures to observe [in terms of them likely translating into obvious audible differences] are the respective frequency ranges and channel separation of both cartridges...
Denon DL-S1:
- Output voltage: 0.15mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-70kHz
- Recommended load impedance: Over 100 ohms
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: < 1db
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: > 28dB
- Stylus tip: 0.07 x 0.07 mm square solid diamond
- Compliance: 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne
- Recommended tracking force: (1.3g +/- 0.2g)
Ortofon Kontrapunkt B:
Output voltage at 1000 Hz, 5cm/sec. - 0,47 mV
Channel balance at 1 kHz - < 1,5 dB
Channel separation at 1 kHz - > 25 dB
Channel separation at 15 kHz - > 18 dB
Frequency range at - 3dB - 20-50.000 Hz
Frequency response - 20-20.000 Hz + 2,5 /-1 dB
Tracking ability at 315Hz at recommended tracking force - 80 µm
Compliance, dynamic, lateral - 12 µm/mN
Stylus type - Nude FG 80 / Ruby cantilever
With the right recordings, the extra top-end extension of the DL-S1 should manifest itself in bringing extra 'life' to music, much in the same way as does a super-tweeter to a pair of suitable loudspeakers, and the superior channel separation should give a better stereo effect and wider soundstage.
However, those are only 'hi-fiisms', the important thing is how both cartridges 'connect' you to the music!:)
Marco.Ha! Top trumps!!
No mate, I'm simply after the best sound to me. That my ears enjoy and the one that makes me "feel" the emotion. If it be the DL-S1 or the Kb, then that's great. What I'm looking for these days is an unfiltered connection, a veil-less performance of which the human touch is a perceived possibility. I'm close, really close with the Kb. If this Denon gets me there, that'll be me done. I'm serious too.
Like I said, I have in the past preferred cartridges with the FG profile but that's not an exclusive club. I am happy to let any cartridge grace the SP10 and judgeitbon merit alone. It's just a lesson learnt from trial but let's be clear, I'm not sure Ive had a cartridge of the DL-S1's reported quality with a "special elliptical stylus" here before. The only one that comes to mind is the AT-ART7 which is to my mind, is the best sounding cart out there under £1000 new. *That I have heard*
The DL-S1 would be more than that if made today
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
Ha - I thought you'd like the Top Trumps thing:D
Anyway dude, s'all good. The talking's been done, it's now time for the listening! Let me know when she lands:cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 19:37
Will do!
So much anticipation!! I'll never sleep tonight [emoji38]
Ha - I thought you'd like the Top Trumps thing:D
Anyway dude, s'all good. The talking's been done, it's now time for the listening! Let me know when she lands:cool:
Marco.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
Thread reported - is this not a sales thread ?
:lol:
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 21:34
[emoji38][emoji38]
Thread reported - is this not a sales thread ?
[emoji38]
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
Firebottle
09-10-2018, 06:42
It was mikey, but only for about 13 minutes :D
It was mikey, but only for about 13 minutes :D[emoji23]
Bloody mailbox pings galore here.
Bigman80
09-10-2018, 07:03
[emoji23]
Bloody mailbox pings galore here.Ping [emoji23]
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
It was mikey, but only for about 13 minutes
That's about the norm for me, as on the rare occasions I sell stuff, it always shifts PRONTO...! I think it must be the 'celebrity status':lol::D
Marco.
Bigman80
09-10-2018, 08:08
That's about the norm for me, as on the rare occasions I sell stuff, it always shifts PRONTO...! I think it must be the 'celebrity status'[emoji38]:D
Marco.You buy well, Marco. When top gear comes up at a good price from a trusted member/forum owner then it should fly out the door.
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The Black Adder
09-10-2018, 08:34
Lovely cart is that, Marco.
Congratulations to the new owner too! :)
WESTLOWER
09-10-2018, 08:35
You buy well, Marco. When top gear comes up at a good price from a trusted member/forum owner then it should fly out the door.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
:kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss: :lol:
Bigman80
09-10-2018, 08:38
[emoji23][emoji23]
:kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss: [emoji38]
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Audio Al
09-10-2018, 08:39
:kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss: :lol:
:grouphug::respect:
Is this another AoS love in? If so, no tongues:kiss: :nono:
Ollie, when the Denny arrives, post your thoughts on a new thread in Analogue Art, not here, as remember.... This is [was, used to be, once upon a time] a sales thread:adminpower::D
Marco.
Bigman80
09-10-2018, 09:29
Is this another AoS love in? If so, no tongues:kiss: :nono:
Ollie, when the Denny arrives, post your thoughts on a new thread in Analogue Art, not here, as remember.... This is [was, used to be, once upon a time] a sales thread:adminpower::D
Marco.It's all love today!!!
Will do mate. New thread.
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mannypr551
15-10-2018, 22:37
Pm incoming
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As a sellsman I would hire you on the spot . :):lol:
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