Best £20 I've spent on HiFi

[AJSki2fly]

I have never ventured into detailed equipment isolation apart from having my turntable securely mounted and isolated on a robust platform securely attached to the wall.

I was chatting with a friend about what he thinks about trying to isolate amps, CD players etc using platforms/stands or feet. He has a quite expensive stand with isolation shelves and in his opinion he said it definitely made a difference in subtle ways. I was chatting with my amplifiers manufacturer as I have been doing some evaluations of some of their equipment for them as they value feedback to see what people think of changes or mods they have made. They asked me as they know my setup, Turntable, I use their amps and they also use Wilson Benesch Arc speakers as well. Anyway I asked Sean at High End Audio what he thought about isolating amplifiers and so on. His opinion was it was definitely something to do, but the difficult thing is that their is no exact right or wrong way and there are an awful lot of expensive bits of kit out that achieve the same as some simple damping methods. He said they always mount amps on isolation platforms and he does the same at home, and in his opinion it results in a better overall soundstage and definition of the music. He recalled demonstrating a system to a customer who did not believe that isolating amps made any difference, so he did a blind test with the chap and guess what the chap prefered the sound with the amps on isolation stands saying it was better defined and more realistic.

So armed with this thought I did a bit of investigation into what might be a good starting point and would not break the bank. What I came up with was some simple Sorbothane feet, a set of 8 (as I have two power amps) all for the sum of £20 including delivery from Ebay. I carefully selected the size that handled 15kg. The people I purchased from had a table guide as to which to select for different weights of equipment, they emphasised that it is very important to select ones so that the weight of the equipment falls within the weight bearing range of the pads, this would gain the best results in damping and isolation.

So the Sorbothane pads arrived today in the post, and I installed them simply by placing under each amplifier just behind each original foot. Click on each photo below to see larger. So I put some music on and I have to say it was a bit of shock and pleasant surprise, I was actually not expecting much change, but the difference is a bit of a revelation. Basically everything now sounds better defined and tighter, bass sounds clearer, better defined and slightly deeper, and overall the sound stage seems more detailed/defined.

Am I kidding myself, I think not? I removed the Sorbathane feet and put the same track on and immediately the clarity and detail was less. Feet went back and on I went to a well known test track and yes this confirmed my thoughts. By the way my amps are sighted on a solid wood sideboard that is 3 feet behind the speakers and this still made a difference.

So if you've got £10-20 and want to do a simple upgrade I would recommend you give this a go.

24308

24309

[MikeMusic]

It is mental.

Still getting over discovering supports and isolation.
The more you have the better it gets

[AJSki2fly]

It is mental.

Still getting over discovering supports and isolation.
The more you have the better it gets

Some carefully selected Sorbothane pads for the Gyrodec next I think.

[Sherwood]

Some carefully selected Sorbothane pads for the Gyrodec next I think.

Whist sorbothane damping may be beneficial for electronics (e.g heavy amps) I have found it unsuitable for TTs.

Geoff

[AJSki2fly]

Whist sorbothane damping may be beneficial for electronics (e.g heavy amps) I have found it unsuitable for TTs.

Geoff

Interesting, in what way does it affect the sound if used on a turntable?

[Svend N]

Very interesting post Adrian. You have a tube amp, correct? (hard to see in the pics) Would this work for a solid state power amp?

[Sherwood]

Interesting, in what way does it affect the sound if used on a turntable?

Loss of detail and mangling of timing. IMHO sorbothane can help damp the vibrations generated by big transformers, especially on large valve amps. I used a sorbothane platform with my Art Audio Valve power amp. I find turntables work best on a rigid lightweight support. My guess is that sorbothane reduces the efficiency of the TTs own isolation system (primarily suspended TT designs).

[Svend N]

Loss of detail and mangling of timing. IMHO sorbothane can help damp the vibrations generated by big transformers, especially on large valve amps. I used a sorbothane platform with my Art Audio Valve power amp. I find turntables work best on a rigid lightweight support. My guess is that sorbothane reduces the efficiency of the TTs own isolation system (primarily suspended TT designs).

I think you're right there, Geoff. I had this explained to me in much the same terms by Shane in regard to my Heybrook. The sorbothane and the deck's suspension work against each other; a suspended deck should be left free to let the suspension do it's thing, and doesn't need more suspension (i.e. jiggly sorbothane). If interested, I could dig up that post...it was very helpful.

[AJSki2fly]

Very interesting post Adrian. You have a tube amp, correct? (hard to see in the pics) Would this work for a solid state power amp?

Yes, they are Renaissance RA01 dual 300B's, which are quite rare. I find then extremely detailed and rewarding, but quite unforgiving in my setup as they reproduce everything. Sean at High End Audio (the Amps manufacturers) said that it helps with solid state as well, they also produce some quite fine sounding solid state amps as well. I also think that CD Players are likely to benefit, so I will be ordering some to place under the Meridian 508 as well. I will also try some under the phono stage which sits inside the sideboard that the amps are on. Thinking about this it may not be that great as the sideboard doors and sides maybe acting as a sound box and vibrating from output from the system.

I think anything is worth a try if it is relatively in-expensive.

For example I buy quite a few secondhand records and wanted to ensure I could clean them well. I did not want to spend lots on a vinyl cleaning machine as I my budget was limited and she who must be obeyed would not be very happy spending hundreds/thousands on one. So I found an old Panosonic turntable which I brought for £3, I removed the arm and purchase a cheap wet/dry hoover. I modified the hoover head used for getting in corners by putting cutting a narrow slit in the bottom to go over the black vinyl and then covering it with 50mm wide velvet ribbon, then cutting a slit in the ribbon, and I drilled a hole in the end which fits over the turntable spindle, I then sealed the end of the head up. I then made a support from hard rubber for the modified head so that it held it just above a record on the turntable. I had previously been cleaning records with a Knosti Disk cleaner but was never very happy with leaving the records to drain dry, believing it left residue and dirt behind. However I have experimented with a variety of cleaning fluids and mixtures, one recommended by a friend and another mixture which is used by the London Jazz Collector https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/ I have found this to be the most effective and have cleaned some very dirty records with it and got some great results. The process I use is to put the record on the old turntable put a small amount of the mixture on it, and manually spin the record whilst holding one of those flat emulsion paint brushes on the record (they have very fine hairs and do not shed, they are also very cheap) to spread the fluid, I spin the record about 5-10 times in each direction and then use the modified hoover head and the wet and dry hoover to remove the fluid. A very dirty record may require 3-5 cleans if it have been played in smokey or greasy atmospheres, but if you persevere they usually can be cleaned up.

So as I said rather than spend a fortune on a cleaner I built mine for about £50. Yes it requires some manual input but I find it quite therapeutic, especially when a dirty record comes up good.

[Sherwood]

I think you're right there, Geoff. I had this explained to me in much the same terms by Shane in regard to my Heybrook. The sorbothane and the deck's suspension work against each other; a suspended deck should be left free to let the suspension do it's thing, and doesn't need more suspension (i.e. jiggly sorbothane). If interested, I could dig up that post...it was very helpful.

The best support I ever had for my TT was a self made open frame table. It was made of a combination of hard and softwood timber. The uprights were 2"x2" hardwood. The rest of the support was basically cross bracing using 1"x1" pine (screwed and glued). The uprights had spikes inserted top and bottom. It was completed with a plywood top with four two pence coins glued to the underside. A hole punch was used to create an indent into the centre of the coins which ensured that top did not slide around. The support was incredibly rigid and very light. It worked well with my RP3 (which I bought when the RB300 arm first came out), and then with my LP12 which I bought by trading in the RP3. The most notable benefit of the support was the incredible energy in the midrange, holographic imaging, improved timing, tighter bass, and the opening of fine detail.

Geoff

[AJSki2fly]

The best support I ever had for my TT was a self made open frame table. It was made of a combination of hard and softwood timber. The uprights were 2"x2" hardwood. The rest of the support was basically cross bracing using 1"x1" pine (screwed and glued). The uprights had spikes inserted top and bottom. It was completed with a plywood top with four two pence coins glued to the underside. A hole punch was used to create an indent into the centre of the coins which ensured that top did not slide around. The support was incredibly rigid and very light. It worked well with my RP3 (which I bought when the RB300 arm first came out), and then with my LP12 which I bought by trading in the RP3. The most notable benefit of the support was the incredible energy in the midrange, holographic imaging, improved timing, tighter bass, and the opening of fine detail.

Geoff

Sounds like a well thought out and designed support.

[Svend N]

Adrian - thanks for the insight re. solid state amps. I can get those sorbothane domes for a reasonable price here locally, and will give it a try.

FYI, I did put some dense foam pucks under my CD player and it was a noticeable improvement. I might try sorbothane there next and see if that makes it even better.

Geoff - good post. Sounds like a solid design. Well done! I will keep that in mind as I look to set up a second system in the basement. I have a Planar 3 already standing by for that. A solid, rigid support is exactly what I will be needing there. Thanks!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Your actually coupling your hifi components and not isolating them utilising the method you describe.

[Oddball]

Interesting bit about your DIY record cleaning there Aidrian :)
I have the Knosti stuff ,but it really pisses me off doing all that faffing with 2 baths and trying to keep my labels dry . The dam solution creeps into the label a bit (despite me trying to mod the seals ) and even after they drain ,as you say , seem to get that bit of a trail of stuff , despite me rinsing time and again .
I have a really old early electric turntable that is scrap , so I might try your method ;)

[Chris]

I discovered how isolation affects SS amps quite by accident; a mate went to Korea on business and brought me back a set of Sound Spike Will maglev feet. I immediately tried to use them between my Mana and the TT. A very hairy experience trying to get them into position with just one pair of hands so I desisted and anyway I realised my lp12 was too light to correctly depress the central piston thingy so that the opposed magnetic fields might work correctly and “float” the deck. So I decided to just put them under my Sugden A21SE, just 3 of them in a sort of triangle under where the toroidal is, left of centre. I didn’t expect any kind of result but after a couple of days I realised how much better it all sounded. They are still in position.

[struth]

I discovered how isolation affects SS amps quite by accident; a mate went to Korea on business and brought me back a set of Sound Spike Will maglev feet. I immediately tried to use them between my Mana and the TT. A very hairy experience trying to get them into position with just one pair of hands so I desisted and anyway I realised my lp12 was too light to correctly depress the central piston thingy so that the opposed magnetic fields might work correctly and “float” the deck. So I decided to just put them under my Sugden A21SE, just 3 of them in a sort of triangle under where the toroidal is, left of centre. I didn’t expect any kind of result but after a couple of days I realised how much better it all sounded. They are still in position.

I used mag levs under my thorens deck. worked well. as you say you have to get right ones for the weight of unit tho.

[walpurgis]

Hmm. Wonder if a maglev armchair would be any good? :)

[struth]

Hmm. Wonder if a maglev armchair would be any good? :)

Could fit them to the zimmer

[wee tee cee]

must admit when i saw grants maglev set up i was smitten.....proper gadget porn!!!!!

[Yomanze]

Decoupling has way more impact, and is cheaper, than cables, yet few people seem to pay attention to it. Glad that more people are moving away from spikes, decoupling at a component level, and seeing what they are missing. And for £20. [emoji4]

To the OP, try decoupling your speakers next. ;)

[AJSki2fly]

Interesting bit about your DIY record cleaning there Aidrian :)
I have the Knosti stuff ,but it really pisses me off doing all that faffing with 2 baths and trying to keep my labels dry . The dam solution creeps into the label a bit (despite me trying to mod the seals ) and even after they drain ,as you say , seem to get that bit of a trail of stuff , despite me rinsing time and again .
I have a really old early electric turntable that is scrap , so I might try your method ;)

Why not have a go its not hard, and the results are pretty good IMO, all you need is a cheap wet/dry vacuum, some duct tape to blank of the end of the hoover attachment and some glue to fix the velvet ribbon. I used a carefully held curved flooring stanley knife to cut the slit (be very careful it does not slip), the slit only needs to be about 2-3mm wide.

Order some 99.9% Isopoyl Alcohol, get some Distilled water, and some bottles, these are great https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B016BZT4W2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, some ILFORD ILFOTOL WETTING AGENT https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINYL-RECORD-CLEANER-RECIPE-PLUS-ILFORD-ILFOTOL-WETTING-AGENT-10ML-ENOUGH-FOR-2L/292755503540?epid=2160692260&hash=item44299679b4:g:3toAAOSw8d5ZS-LT mix up some cleaning fluid to the correct mix and off you go (I have found about 30% Isopropyl to Distilled Water works well. In 500ml of cleaning solution you only need 2.5ml of the Ilford wetting agent, it is important as it breaks the surface tension of the fluid and allows it to enter the grooves and free the dirt, and for it to be removed easier with the hoover. The brush to gently hold on the record and spread the fluid is one of these cut into 3 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Paint-Pad-Tray-2-pads-handle-for-emulsion-wood-stain-gloss-quicker-than-roller/201326015085?hash=item2edff7326d:g:sHUAAOSwv0tVJBE 2, after cutting make sure that you use a small clean brush to get rid of any small bits of plastic before using and keep fingers off the pad head, regularly hoover it off between cleaning, when it starts to discolour throw it away and start with a new one.

Hoovering will get about 99% of the cleaning fluid off so any residual gently remove by wiping around the record with one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extra-Large-Microfiber-Cleaning-Cloths/dp/B00C924HA6/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1538730471&sr=8-7&keywords=micro+cloth and change them regularly as they will get dirty. If you wash them out then rinse them in distilled water, no soap products and leave to dry naturally.

In extreme case I have found that some really dirty records can take 3-5 cleans, if a record is obviously dusty and dirty then I will clean it first using a mix of L'Art Du Son first https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_1_9?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=lart+du+son&sprefix=l%27art+du+%2Caps%2C167&crid=1ED0A3N2O5B4D and then rinsing with distilled water, and then clean with the above cleaning solution. I suspect that the L'Art Du Son has some form of detergent in it that helps remove tobacco smoke residue and grease, I keep separate brush pads and microfibre for use with this solution. Some people don't like L'Art Du Son but it seems to be a very effective cleaner IMO, but make sure you rinse the record after to not leave any residue behind.

Remember if you are disappointed after your first clean of a record do not give up on it, it may take several cleans before it gets really good. Even though it looks clean you can still have dirt left in the grooves causing crackles. Having said that if the record has marks/scratches across it and you can feel these with you finger tip then these may be the issue. But you'd be surprised, I have some records that if you looked at them you would say that they will sound bad because of the marks on them, but when played they actually pretty quiet. I know some people advocate cleaning a record before playing because they believe it immediately becomes contaminated once out the sleeve. Personally I think this is a bit extreme, but I do think that cleaning after 15-20 plays is worth doing. After cleaning pop into a new sleeve liner like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-12-POLYLINED-WHITE-PAPER-RECORD-SLEEVES-FREE-DEL/290654004815?epid=1032422472&hash=item43ac54264f:g:twsAAMXQd2hRYVdL

Have Fun.

[tlscapital]

A turntable needs inertia and isolation. The amp needs isolation. The speakers need inertia. One can ancor the speakers with stone or pavement on top for none or little money to fantastic result.

I have put sorbothane feet under my Thorens TD14x & TD16x heavily tweaked that is now super heavy with chunks of marble casted in it's base to weight enough and reach the required inertia.

The sorbothane feet do not bounce one bit and are there to isolate the plinth from it's support. I have made some sort of light plywood platter onto which sits my amp that work as isolation already.

And yes, since I also did find some improvement like even better focus "image" after having set that "isolation" platter. Now I am tempted to add little pieces of sorbothane beneath it's pike's feet discs.

Thanks for sharing that and giving me the thought to improve for little money and easy adjustments my phono setting without hassle. Would the external preamp benefit from such isolation as well ?

[JohnG]

Would it be possible to post a few images of your DIY TT Cleaning system, with the modified head attachment, sounds like a good addition to a cleaning set up.
I'm starting to view the subject of Isolation as more of a Subject of Attenuation.
It seems to me that the end result is a control of the frequencies that influence the presentation.
So the acceptance of certain frequencies being perceived during a replay, will be subjective across different listeners, a attractor for one will be another's detractor to the produced sound.
Trialing and comparing different materials and set ups is key to finding the attenuation that is a attractor to the intended listener.

[Gazjam]

ebay link to the sorbothane pads please? :)

[tlscapital]

ebay link to the sorbothane pads please? :) The seller with some of the best prices and widest choice I have find on the eVilBay in UK is called 'dappletoft'. Hope that suffice...

[Yomanze]

Sorbothane needs to be loaded properly to work as it should.

Take a look at: https://www.qtasystems.co.uk/articles/how-to-use-sorbothane-hemispheres.htm for some loading charts.

[AJSki2fly]

ebay link to the sorbothane pads please? :)

Link for Sorbothane pads https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-SORBOTHANE-40mm-ANTI-VIBRATION-HEMISPHERES-FEET-Turntables-Speakers-etc/290939967816?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Regards

Adrian

[Oddball]

Why not have a go its not hard, and the results are pretty good IMO, all you need is a cheap wet/dry vacuum, some duct tape to blank of the end of the hoover attachment and some glue to fix the velvet ribbon. I used a carefully held curved flooring stanley knife to cut the slit (be very careful it does not slip), the slit only needs to be about 2-3mm wide.

Order some 99.9% Isopoyl Alcohol, get some Distilled water, and some bottles, these are great https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B016BZT4W2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, some ILFORD ILFOTOL WETTING AGENT https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINYL-RECORD-CLEANER-RECIPE-PLUS-ILFORD-ILFOTOL-WETTING-AGENT-10ML-ENOUGH-FOR-2L/292755503540?epid=2160692260&hash=item44299679b4:g:3toAAOSw8d5ZS-LT mix up some cleaning fluid to the correct mix and off you go (I have found about 30% Isopropyl to Distilled Water works well. In 500ml of cleaning solution you only need 2.5ml of the Ilford wetting agent, it is important as it breaks the surface tension of the fluid and allows it to enter the grooves and free the dirt, and for it to be removed easier with the hoover. The brush to gently hold on the record and spread the fluid is one of these cut into 3 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Paint-Pad-Tray-2-pads-handle-for-emulsion-wood-stain-gloss-quicker-than-roller/201326015085?hash=item2edff7326d:g:sHUAAOSwv0tVJBE 2, after cutting make sure that you use a small clean brush to get rid of any small bits of plastic before using and keep fingers off the pad head, regularly hoover it off between cleaning, when it starts to discolour throw it away and start with a new one.

Hoovering will get about 99% of the cleaning fluid off so any residual gently remove by wiping around the record with one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extra-Large-Microfiber-Cleaning-Cloths/dp/B00C924HA6/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1538730471&sr=8-7&keywords=micro+cloth and change them regularly as they will get dirty. If you wash them out then rinse them in distilled water, no soap products and leave to dry naturally.

In extreme case I have found that some really dirty records can take 3-5 cleans, if a record is obviously dusty and dirty then I will clean it first using a mix of L'Art Du Son first https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_1_9?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=lart+du+son&sprefix=l%27art+du+%2Caps%2C167&crid=1ED0A3N2O5B4D and then rinsing with distilled water, and then clean with the above cleaning solution. I suspect that the L'Art Du Son has some form of detergent in it that helps remove tobacco smoke residue and grease, I keep separate brush pads and microfibre for use with this solution. Some people don't like L'Art Du Son but it seems to be a very effective cleaner IMO, but make sure you rinse the record after to not leave any residue behind.

Remember if you are disappointed after your first clean of a record do not give up on it, it may take several cleans before it gets really good. Even though it looks clean you can still have dirt left in the grooves causing crackles. Having said that if the record has marks/scratches across it and you can feel these with you finger tip then these may be the issue. But you'd be surprised, I have some records that if you looked at them you would say that they will sound bad because of the marks on them, but when played they actually pretty quiet. I know some people advocate cleaning a record before playing because they believe it immediately becomes contaminated once out the sleeve. Personally I think this is a bit extreme, but I do think that cleaning after 15-20 plays is worth doing. After cleaning pop into a new sleeve liner like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-12-POLYLINED-WHITE-PAPER-RECORD-SLEEVES-FREE-DEL/290654004815?epid=1032422472&hash=item43ac54264f:g:twsAAMXQd2hRYVdL

Have Fun.

Thanks for that Aidey !!
You have urged me on to get my Knosti baths out for the afternoon . Rooting out an old lp case that sat in an unheated room for a while and all the records have a degree of mould in patches on them !!

I have to kitchen to myself ,lots of hot water (not too hot !!) and a dilute fairy liquid in a squeezy bottle.
Into the one under the warm tap a good squeeze of fairy then in with the water , in goes the lp and several scrubs 360 ,back and 2 for a minute maybe then rinse off suds under the cold tap , then straight into the other bath with my 30% IPA , distilled water and a squirt of rinse aid .
Spin the excess off by hand ,out of clamp ,and into the drying rack on the clothes drier over the Rayburn,
Once I have 6 in rack , and they are dry ,I tranfer to a secondary rack to dry completely , while doing 6 more .

Lay the first one or 2 and I am satisfied . A couple of cruddy noist ELO albums sound very quiet considering the mess they looked

I will look into your idea . I did make a wand once and adapted the wifes hoover ,but what a fag
Maybe time to do it again

[da2222]

Sorbothane needs to be loaded properly to work as it should.

Take a look at: https://www.qtasystems.co.uk/articles/how-to-use-sorbothane-hemispheres.htm for some loading charts.

Choosing the correct load type appears rather problematic with equipment of uneven weight spread, for example, valve amps sporting trannies at the rear. I'd estimate my power amp is circa 30kg with most weight concentrated at the rear. Going a size or 2 down for the front support isn't an option as the height of the sorbothane supports are different the lower the load they are intended to support...

[JohnG]

I've just had a view of Adrian's record vacuum cleaner and it looks very powerful, I imagine it could levitate the record from the platter.
I don't think any 'pesky varmint' particles will escape it.
A clever little bit of improvisation.
I think this will be better than the second hand Airblade hand dryer I was toying with the idea of buying.

[Yomanze]

Choosing the correct load type appears rather problematic with equipment of uneven weight spread, for example, valve amps sporting trannies at the rear. I'd estimate my power amp is circa 30kg with most weight concentrated at the rear. Going a size or 2 down for the front support isn't an option as the height of the sorbothane supports are different the lower the load they are intended to support...

In this case I would probably use two hemispheres at the back corners, and one in the front middle. Ideally you make contact with the case, not the feet.

[tlscapital]

Ok so I got the multiple sorbothane discs in the mail box to trial different combinations. My amp only weights some 13 Kg (40 Watts) but had to try with 1 or 2 layers of sorbothane discs (4.5 Kg per disc) as by the seller's max weight capacity for one disc I was at the limit... Plus the fact that weight is distributed unevenly in the amp. Anyway, I first tried with 2 layers of sorbothane disc per feet.

Shocking ! My 2-D sound became 1-D and my highs thin and "hairy" while the bass was "boomy"; ugly ! Tried with one layer; less accentuated but to a result that sounded like nothing. I was afraid something happened to my stylus in the meantime... So I took the sorbothane discs off and thank God, got my good sound back. So on my configuration, such isolation under the amp is a no-no.

So that is true, what is happening there, at the bottom/feet contact of the amp with it's support do hugely affect the playback sound. Mind you that I have learn to love the "decoupling" design and principle of "using" the good resonances of both my SME3009 tonearm and Thorens TD14x-16x turntable (rather than to struggle with over damping of everything) and I did my tweaks in that sense...

[Yomanze]

I use some Black Ravioli pads under my amp, like yours mine is unevenly balanced, and these don’t compress under load. They use ‘constrained layer damping’ instead of decoupling.