Class T-amps [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

dave2010

13-04-2010, 17:59

This post - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=115266&postcount=9 - referring to a Hlly T-amp 90 got me interested. I'd never heard of class T amps before, so I looked them up - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_T_amplifier Seems they're a modification of class-D amps, and typically based around a chip - such as a TA2020.

Then I looked up some reviews, and I found this which refers to several DIY amps - http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/tripath_amps_e.html

One amp, the Sonic Impact (model 5066) seemed very cheap, and also quite elegant. However, so far I've not tracked those down. The reviews were a bit curious, as it sounds as though these class T amps have both a wow factor, but are also maybe a bit tiring to listen to. It's not clear how tiring, and how long it is before fatigue sets in. If it's an hour or so, then using these effectively with an alarm radio or similar perhaps doesn't matter, Maybe also the fatigue is less obvious if one is working at the same time - though it might depend on the work.

Looking at the review, mention is also made of Gainclones, so I looked them up too - http://diyaudioprojects.com/Chip/LM3886_CA/LM3886_CA.htm Basically they seem to be amps made using only a very few components - typically ICs. Maybe quite good, and fun for DIYers and projects.

This article - http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact/t.html - which is specifically about a Sonic Impact amp, maybe indicates some of the fatigue problems - with THD and noise rising as the power rises - see graph.

There's a thread on avforums also which is of interest - http://www.avforums.com/forums/hi-fi-systems-separates/327900-bought-sonic-t-amp-jaw-drops.html

So, now my appetite is slightly whetted. I went to ebay to see what I could find, and these turned up - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TA2024-Class-T-Amp-TA-2024-Amplifier-Tripath-Chip-SA-36_W0QQitemZ180485644845QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2a05c8622d For £20, if they work then maybe they could be a good buy. There are plenty of others, but these were the cheapest new ones I found. There are some SH ones from around £10, though usually shipping is extra. This one is similar, though probably uses a slightly different chip (TA2020 instead of TA2024) - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SA-36-Class-T-Amp-TA2020-Amplifier-Tripath-Chip-TA-2020_W0QQitemZ280486059583QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Ca rsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item414e459e3f. You can see more if you search for "class T-amp" on eBay. I think some are probably intended for cars, but there's a lot of evidence that they can drive "real" speakers.

So, are any of these any good? Maybe they are "good value for money", but really sound "****", or maybe they're actually bearable. What do others think? I note that some people have tried making these or modding the amps - could be fun, though the results don't seem to be much better. At these low prices though, could be entertaining.

The Vinyl Adventure

13-04-2010, 18:14

I have a temple audio bantam amp.. More expensive that the chinesse jobs but I went for it as I guessed I could send it back if it was crap ... It wasn't crap, in fact, I really like it... Very basic, a little lacking in bass but pleasant to listen to ... Works very well with a stan dac and my dynaudio a42's - it would suprise you how good the sound is I would have thought
Also have a pair of gainclones that a fellow aos memebr built and sold me... They are awesome for the money! Really very suprising the sound quality from them!

leo

13-04-2010, 18:58

I once built a TA2020 based amp just for fun, I got a diy amp module from a place called 41hz .com and stuck it in a cheapo metal case, the whole thing was pretty cheap to build and didn't sound bad for what it was

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1293/4634025/12749957/271121026.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1293/4634025/12749957/271121024.jpg

Ali Tait

13-04-2010, 19:04

This hlly amp is better than ever now it's run in.Check out DIYAudio for the Class D subforum.Lots of good advice there.Some have posted about my amp,saying it's a little dark and coloured (it uses the TA2022 chip) but I find it very natural and open,very like a valve amp in fact.They do say this chip has a distinct sound compared to the others.I suspect I would find the other types a little too clean and clinical for my tastes,being used to valves as I am.There is a thread on a DIY 2022 module there too.I just bought this particular one as I wanted the power to drive my statics.It sounds so good on my MLTL's that I haven't got round to trying on the statics yet.To put it in perspective,this amp is clearly better than the Musical Fidelity A370 I had.It's that good.

Vincent Kars

13-04-2010, 19:44

A couple of years ago the T-amp was hot. It was based on the Tripath's design.
It is still on sale: http://www.trendsaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=37&Itemid=28

UV101

13-04-2010, 22:52

Not quite a T class but I recently purchased a couple of chip amps for m rear channels. Coupled to a 225va transformer, I tested on my main fronts 1st and was blown away! Not quite my Restek but then they cost about a 20th of the price!!!! These are awesome VFM!

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/IMG_5969.jpg

john blackburn

13-04-2010, 23:14

If you don't need much power give the LM1875s a look at, cheap to build and a nice sound.

John

dave2010

15-04-2010, 03:44

It occurs to me that interest in this type of amp is for one of two reasons.

1. The need for a small, neat, cheap amp of reasonable quality

or

2. The desire for a high quality amp implemented relatively cheaply.

Some people might also add in

3. The desire/need for a cool running efficient amp, which uses relatively little electrical power.

Although I like the idea of using little power, here I'm discounting this as a dominant factor for most of us.

The first case probably applies for subsidiary systems. In my case that might apply to systems for use in the kitchen or bedrooms. Fewer, smaller and unobtrusive boxes would be desirable. Different people might have views about what is cheap, but in my case I'd probably put it at £50 or less - others may have a higher threshold, while for some £50 might be considered expensive.

The second case is where the quality is the dominant factor, so prices could be significantly higher, but would only be worth paying if the quality is similar to, or substantially better than, other amplifiers in the same price range. Larger size would not be a problem for this application.

I don't know what the differernce is between the so-called "class-T" amps and class D amps, except that the T amps are following designs originally from Tripath, and based on a (mostly) one chip design.

I note that it's now quite common for some equipment to have essentially class D amps embedded. Examples would be the new range of iMac computers, and multi-channel surround sound systems. A clue in the latter case would be the power output of the total system. In my own case I have a surround sound system (Sony, fairly cheap) which has a claimed power output of over 1000 Watts into 6 channels.

It occurs to me that I could get an impression of the sound of such digital amps by feeding the signals from my audio kit into the surround sound system, and attaching the speakers from my audio system to that.

Would that be a reasonable thing to do? If you've been following, you'd notice that here I'm operating in my mode 2 - prioritising quality over other factors. My decision as to whether to pursue this further would then depend on how I liked the sound from the surround sound system used as an amp. Of course it is also possible that even with such digital switching amps that there could be differences in quality, and that some are audibly better than others, though at first glance it's a bit hard to see why that should be the case. Even the poor DC offset control of some cheap class-T amps shouldn't make too much difference most of the time [I can't see why the DC offset can't be blocked easily by a capacitor, but what do I know?], though would be undesirable in a really high quality system.

For my own decision, if I liked the sound through the surround system, I might then go and look for a decent digital amp, and could then be prepared to spend £00s, but if I didn't find it to my liking I'd be more inclined to spend less, maybe even buying one of the cheap Chinese amps, and then be prepared to spend rather more on a more conventional amp for my main system when I get round to upgrading it.

Would that be a sensible way to go?

Ali Tait

15-04-2010, 07:14

The cheap to run bit was exactly why I bought this,the great sound I didn't expect! This was to be used for playing tv and films when I get the direct-coupled amp,as I didn't want it to get such heavy useage,bad for valve longevity,and also the fact that power consumption will be 500w+! Expensive when running several hours every day,hence the Tripath amp.It does sound way better than I expected,and very like a good PP valve amp.

Vincent Kars

15-04-2010, 08:20

stevekr

15-04-2010, 10:34

I'm using a Virtue Audio One class T in power amp mode with a 130v supply, It's the best amp amp I've ever owned. There's a review on TNT and they have a forum on audio circle. Would highly recommend them. The Virtue amps can drive 'normal sensitivity speakers too. I love the Tripath sound, the warmth of valves coupled with the power of SS. The smaller T amps are great, sonic impact, trends ect. but you do need to have high sensitvity speakers to get the best from them I've found, Lowther owners take note!

Krisbee

15-04-2010, 11:41

I've long been intrigued by t-amps. I can't do DIY and came close to buying a trends audio ta 10.1 about 18 months ago for a desktop system (PC + Stan's DAC etc.). It was both the sound per pound and green factors that attracted me, together with its compact size.

But UK prices doubled overnight just before I took the plunge and I ended up press ganging my Rotel RA-01 into use instead. I always had doubts about a T2024 based amp driving my 86db speakers.

Saw a kingrex T20U and kingrex psu for sale s/hand for £225 a few weeks ago but someone beat me to it. Like Ali's 90w t-amp, the kingrex is based on the T2020 chip which kingrex rate at about 25W so it stood a better chance of driving my speakers.

Nearly all this stuff seems to originate in the far east, and if the t-amp can be a giant killer as described in reviews at TnT, 6moons and elsewhere, I wonder why they are not more widely available in the UK.

Templeaudio's Bantam amps seem to be about the UK produced T-amp on the market. Both their bantam and bantam gold are described as “hand built in Engand”. I've seen inside a bantam amp and it looks to be based on a cheap Sure T2024 board. But they could have devised their own tweaks and from the comments left on their website you'd think it was a minor miracle.

In the end I bought a s/hand Quad 306 two weeks ago. Compact yes, green no. I like the Quad sound, it's not as harsh as the Rotel. I might do the DADA electronics thing on it if I ever feel flush.

But if anyone wants to loan me/bring round a t-amp for comparison, let me know.

Ali Tait

15-04-2010, 12:14

Hi Chris,
The Hlly T amp 90 uses the TA2022 chip,not the 2020.More powerful in that it'l output 90w into 4 ohms,and about 40 or so into 8.Plenty for all speakers except those with silly loads.

Ali Tait

15-04-2010, 12:14

Hi Chris,
The Hlly T amp 90 uses the TA2022 chip,not the 2020.More powerful in that it'l output 90w into 4 ohms,and about 40 or so into 8.Plenty for all speakers except those with silly loads.

dave2010

15-04-2010, 14:31

Vincent
I'm not very good in electronics but what I understand is that T uses pulse width modulation and Class D amplitude modulation.
Class D is not digital, it uses a oscillator to amplify, in essence it is AM, (amplitude modulation) well known from AM radio. http://www.hypex.nl/docs/allamps%20hypex%20layout.pdf
Both are pretty frugal, Class D > 90%
This is probably the reason why D is implemented in all kind of portable devices.

Yes, maybe it is not the best possible Class D implementation but as a 'proof of concept' a very interesting experiment.
I drive my Apogee's with 2 Class D mono blocks, UCD 400 with HxR regulators: http://www.hexateq.com/I'd say that broadly I'm in agreement with you, though I wouldn't call Class D amplitude modulation, though maybe I'm not looking at it the "right" way. The article you highlight is interesting, and it does point out different ways of looking at data and waveforms.

My understanding of Class D is that essentially they are switching amplifiers which work on a train of on-off pulses, and the way they operate means that effectively they should get close to 100% efficiency. When the switch is off, there is no current flow, so no power consumed. When the switch is on, the MOSFET design should have minimum impedance - close to zero - so again the power consumption is low. The switch can be triggered by 0-1 or 1-0 transitions in the input pulse stream.

You are right that PWM is analogue, because it's not (necessarily) directly linked to a clock, so the representation of the magnitude of the signal is effectively a representation in continous time. It could be implemented by a ramping circuit. A sawtooth or triangle wave oscillator could be used to generate the pulses to feed to the power output switch circuit. The frequency of the ramping oscillator is typically at least 10 times the highest frequency of amplification required. As the voltage level of the ramp rises, it is compared with the sampled input, and if the input is higher than the ramp there is a pulse - 1 output level. Once the ramp level becomes higher, the output is set to zero. For good results the ramp has to be well done too.

These pulses then drive the output power switch circuits, and the output is then low pass filtered. The effect of this is to give an efficient amplifier. In practical switching amplifiers I think the switching rate is pretty high compared with audio frequencies, and although this generates noise, it's mostly very high frequency, and filtered out relatively easily.

I really don't know what happens exactly with Class T, as there are several patented features of the chips. One obvious thing is that PWM is not going to work very well with low level signals, as most of the time the encoding is going to be 0, with only very short periods of 1 level outputs. This can be improved in several ways, which may be represented by the patented approaches in the chip. Some processing may take place in the analogue domain, such as modifying the gain before generating the 0-1 bit stream, with a corresponding modification to the output gain. That should be an option.

From the description of Class-T which can be gleaned, it seems that some of the processes may be similar to adaptive delta modulation. It is clear that methods such as first order sigma-delta operation also are capable of giving significant improvements - S-D is used in SACD players and in the DSD encoding method. S-D brings integrators into the circuitry, and the pulse train represents the mean average level of each signal sample. It's possible to use higher order S-D encoding, presumably to give better results.

It is fairly clear that these should give significantly better results than simple PWM, but having said that it's still hard to tell what exactly is going on inside the chips, and different ones may use slightly different algorithms to generate the high frequency pulse trains for switching.

It is possible to analyse these by considering z-transforms (see Richard Hamming's excellent book on Digital Filtering - http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Filters-Richard-W-Hamming/dp/048665088X

There are some good web pages which deal with bit stream approaches. I did find some, and will post details later.

One thing I've not seen, but again maybe they are buried somewhere or in patents, is the use of 1 0 -1 encoding, which when applied to sine wave power generation for DC - AC conversion, gives a significantly better approximation than a 1 -1 (logically equivalent to a 1 0) encoding, being accurate up to the 6th harmonic, which means that even simpler filters can be used on the output to clean up the required output sine wave. It is quite possible that the Class T amps use multi-level circuitry, and multi-level codes, which would explain why they are seemingly very good at low level resolution.

My suspicion is that surround sound amps use some chip based designs which are very similar to Class-T designs. I will try my Sony with my regular loudspeakers, and hopefully be able to let you know what it sounds like. I have been very surprised at how good it sounds with the fairly cheap looking speakers it was supplied with, so maybe it'll be really good with more regular speakers. I think mine's a Sony BDVE360 5.1 Blu-Ray Home Cinema - the latest model is a 370.

hornucopia

15-04-2010, 14:52

I've just stuck my Kingrex USB amp on to drive my (quite efficient) Ocellia Calliopes (Full rangers) as my Leben has lost a valve. Each time I do this, I start wondering if i really NEED this expensive valve amp! I was just testing out my newly acquired 'Hewitt" lightspeed control (you know; that rare handbuilt-in-Lancashire gem:)), but the Kingrex may stay a while. Normally it runs my Zigmahornets (see 6 Moons) as a desktop (side!) system for the iMac.
this set up was good enough to convince me to ditch horns and 'go fullrange' for my main system.
I also have a Sonic Impact 'Son of T' amp, the one mentioned as reviewed on 6 Moons, which is pretty good. It's a De luxe cased version of the basic 'T'. (You can have it for £50.....)
They work well with reasonably efficient speakers. Tannoys too I'd guess!

A/v amps? My Panasonic SA-HR70 receiver was raved about in hi-fi circles about 5 years ago. I've run Glastonburys, and latterly, SD1s from it. Impressed folk just running CD from a DVD player into it/them, so not bad at all?

dave2010

15-04-2010, 17:07

I said I'd come back with some links.

Here's one which seems OK, and seems quite readable - http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/DeltaSigma/DeltaSigma.html

A problem which can occur in Class D amps is called ground bounce - it's a technical issue - and here is something about that - http://www.pericom.com/pdf/applications/AN005.pdf

There may be more.

AndrewR

20-04-2010, 15:44

Thanks guys, my PC mouse just 'slipped' and I bought a Sure Electronics 2*100W TK2050 board and 24V 14A Meanwell PSU.

It is going to be a fun little project and will be performing some of the diyaudio recommended mods (like the input cap replacement).

Still um-ing and ah-ing about what case to use. Thinking of going for link (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0224004), which would end up giving a retro lab-equipment style. Sadly after changing jobs I no longer travel to Japan, where they sell very nice boxes from companies like Takachi.

Will let you know how it goes.

Andrew

Ali Tait

20-04-2010, 19:08

Maplin do some nice boxes too.

Ali Tait

20-04-2010, 19:09

Maplin do some nice boxes too.

aquapiranha

20-04-2010, 19:42

I have been a fan of tripath for some time, ever since I had a Trends TA10.1 which I modified and which sounded bloody fantastic on the Sachiko's (FE206En) I had a the time. I now have the Sure 4 X100W tripath board as it is four channel which is what I need to run my OB's actively. I think it sounds great. I have also heard a selection fo 'chip' amps (LM1875, 3886) and these too sound brilliant.

All in a ll a cost effective way to get good sound.

:)

dave2010

03-05-2010, 09:35

I'm not very good in electronics but what I understand is that T uses pulse width modulation and Class D amplitude modulation.
Class D is not digital, it uses a oscillator to amplify, in essence it is AM, (amplitude modulation) well known from AM radio. http://www.hypex.nl/docs/allamps%20hypex%20layout.pdf
Both are pretty frugal, Class D > 90%
This is probably the reason why D is implemented in all kind of portable devices.

Yes, maybe it is not the best possible Class D implementation but as a 'proof of concept' a very interesting experiment.
I drive my Apogee's with 2 Class D mono blocks, UCD 400 with HxR regulators: http://www.hexateq.com/Now I've tried my experiment with my Sony BDV-E300 surround amplifier. Initial impression was that it did sound different, very bass light. Also exhibited some tininess and boxiness. Of course as this kit is intended for movies some of the issues may have arisen from processing inside the box. I tried to turn most of this off. Detail in the treble seemed good but I've now reverted back to the Pioneer A300, and the sound is much improved overall with a much better balance and stronger bass. I did wonder if the Sony was slightly better at the top though, with maybe low distortion - but it's hard to be sure. A few pieces worked quite well, and got me into foot tapping mood, but I'm glad to be back listening to the Pioneer A300.

With hindsight this doesn't really prove too much, as it's quite likely the AV system has been built down to a price, and is adequate for purpose, but was never really intended for audio use. I was surprised at the lack of bass, though in a surround system this would be taken care of with the sub-woofer. I tried putting that in too, but it didn't really make much difference. Indeed I wasn't sure that it was on - or at least if it was, it may not have been picking anything up. As I said already, this could depend on what kind of sneaky processing goes on in the box.

I suspect that a cheap class-T amp (one declared definitely to be) would not do much better, but a good one might. I am still wondering whether it'd be worth trying one of the HLLY amps mentioned here, or one of Temple Audio's Bantams. However, regarding the Bantam, TA has now introduced a new model - the Bantam Gold, and I'm not sure if it is a class-T amp. From the blurb I've read it might not be, and if it's significantly better, as they claim, and doesn't cost too much more then maybe there'd be no point in following up the class-T amps further.

Just found the prices on the Gold model - around twice the basic Bantam.

Someone on another forum said that the Bantam (would have been an older model - not the Gold) was comparable with a Pioneer A400 - possibly better.

aquapiranha

03-05-2010, 10:01

Hi Dave. The Bantam uses a two channel board by Sure, (or at least it used to, not 100% positive that is still the case) the same people who make my amplifier. It is easy to modify to get even greater performance from it, just like most of them including the Trends amp I had. There is also a thread about the HLLY on Diyaudio..

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/147589-hlly-tamp-90-ta2022-chip-true-pearl.html

Ali Tait

03-05-2010, 10:09

I think the Hlly is excellent,but only when driven with my valve WAD Pre 2.On it's own I'd say it's good but not great.Adding the pre makes it great.

dave2010

03-05-2010, 13:31

I think the Hlly is excellent,but only when driven with my valve WAD Pre 2.On it's own I'd say it's good but not great.Adding the pre makes it great.Any particular reason for that? Is it a lack of gain, or something else? Not sure about the specs of the WAD Pre 2 either - whether it makes things more convenient, or has other benefits or features.

How would it (the HLLY) do with a Caiman - any ideas?

I see you've been looking at/posting in other forums. Do you think the new HLLY will be any good when it comes out? Bit pricier though.

Ali Tait

03-05-2010, 13:49

I found soundstaging in particular much better using the pre2,and it just sounds a more open.I'm not saying it's bad on it's own,it isn't,but to my ears the pre2 turns a good amp into an excellent one.It may be the case that it would be equally as good with the Caiman.Perhaps it just needs an active pre to make it sing.It wouldn't be the first amp to need that!

I would have been very happy with it on it's own if I hadn't heard it with the pre2.I only bought it for AV duties,though it's easily good enough to use as a main amp.Plus of course,using the highly reavealing ER Audio statics makes the difference more obvious.The fact that it sounds much better than I expected was a happy bonus.Amazing SPPV.Can't think of a conventional amp that'll come anywhere near it for the money.

Ali Tait

03-05-2010, 13:49

As for the new one,dunno,hlly says it's better,but then he would!

dave2010

03-05-2010, 16:38

As for the new one,dunno,hlly says it's better,but then he would!As also the new Bantam one promoted by its developers.

Ali Tait

03-05-2010, 17:00

Aye,I'd like to compare the Hlly to the Bantam.I was going to buy a Bantam,but saw the extra power of the Hlly,good for driving my statics.

Covenant

03-05-2010, 18:32

Does anyone make a good Tripath power amp? I would like to try one with my Lightspeed attenuator.

Ali Tait

03-05-2010, 20:10

How easy a load are your speakers? I'd recommend maybe the Hlly T-amp 20,or the 90 if you need a bit more power.Or perhaps the Bantam-seems to get good reviews.Or you could do it cheaper by buying just some boards and doing a bit of DIY.

aquapiranha

03-05-2010, 21:43

Does anyone make a good Tripath power amp? I would like to try one with my Lightspeed attenuator.

Try www.41hz.com

jtay

04-05-2010, 15:21

Does anyone make a good Tripath power amp? I would like to try one with my Lightspeed attenuator.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350339487410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This is a complete board based around the tk2050 tripath chip - output up to 100 watts into 4 ohms.

I'm not electronically savvy, but even I could plug in a laptop power supply for this to work. And work it does. I'm currently using it on a computer sourced set up with a Benchmark Dac1, then this board powering Castle Isis speakers. I love the sound. For £27 it is a 'no brainer' for anyone wanting to explore tripath chips. With no mods at all, it is a very classy sounding amplifier.

I've had the Sonic Impact, still got Trends Audio TA10 and the Teac Al700p and also use a winsome labs mouse. So, I've been a keen follower of this technology and sound. The Sure Electronics IMO is brilliant for the money. Typical of the tripath sound, it has a very clean and sweet top end. The bass goes down well, but lacks some articulation. But the mid range is wonderful, a little forward but brimming with detail. It is a more full bodied sound, compared to my leaner sounding Winsome Labs mouse.

I'm sure that improvements could be made on the power supply I'm using, but, in all honesty, for an office hifi setup, the sound is so musical, that I can't be bothered tweaking it further. It's also a setup that makes nonsense of the formulaic approach to system building ie spend 1/? of your budget on source, 1/? on amp and 1/? on speakers. The original sonic impact was startling for £20 to £30. The sure electronics amp board is much better IMO.

I only dip into this forum once and a while but hope this gives food for thought.

Covenant

04-05-2010, 15:59

Ali Tait

04-05-2010, 16:48

Agreed.I was amazed by this Hlly.

Gazjam

04-05-2010, 19:16

You guys reckon the Hlly amp would be up for a fight against my Cambridge Audio 640C SS amp?

Could be a very cheap upgrade?

Ali Tait

04-05-2010, 19:29

It's very good.Bring your amp over if you'd like to compare.

musicmatters

04-05-2010, 19:38

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350339487410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This is a complete board based around the tk2050 tripath chip - output up to 100 watts into 4 ohms.

I've bought two of these boards in the last year, replacing the output coils (with heavier duty Wurths), input caps (with Daytons and old PIOs) and rail caps (with a sextet of Panasonic FC 1000uF/35V). I haven't done it yet, but replacing the heatsink/fan combo with a Zalman passive device should be helpful. A good power supply is essential, about 27V to 32V. Sure Electronics sells the oddly-named Meanwells, which are a great deal in themselves; for US$50, you get a hash-free SMPS that doesn't flag under load. My Meanwell's fan has never turned on. For well under US$150, you can enjoy listening to a real giant-killer. I've owned ASL tube monoblocks and a Triode Electronics modded ST-70, and I like the Sure more, much more. The Sure is a fabulously rich-sounding and dynamic amplifier. Smooth, too.

Naturally, my statements are based on my opinions, though I've sprinkled in some relevant facts. ;) YMMV, etc., etc.

--Alan

leo

04-05-2010, 20:22

I've been looking at those Sure modules, not got around to trying one yet, theres a load of stuff to mod on it too.
The Paul Hynes PR3 based PSU I knocked up for the Technics would be ideal for one of these, it allows the voltage out to be adjusted quite easy

For anybody who tried them in the UK whats the total cost you paid for one including P&P?

Covenant

04-05-2010, 20:39

I've been looking at those Sure modules, not got around to trying one yet, theres a load of stuff to mod on it too.
The Paul Hynes PR3 based PSU I knocked up for the Technics would be ideal for one of these, it allows the voltage out to be adjusted quite easy

In the words of Mrs Doyle from Father Ted " Go on go on go on.....":eyebrows:

Marco

04-05-2010, 20:57

I've bought two of these boards in the last year, replacing the output coils (with heavier duty Wurths), input caps (with Daytons and old PIOs) and rail caps (with a sextet of Panasonic FC 1000uF/35V). I haven't done it yet, but replacing the heatsink/fan combo with a Zalman passive device should be helpful. A good power supply is essential, about 27V to 32V. Sure Electronics sells the oddly-named Meanwells, which are a great deal in themselves; for US$50, you get a hash-free SMPS that doesn't flag under load. My Meanwell's fan has never turned on. For well under US$150, you can enjoy listening to a real giant-killer. I've owned ASL tube monoblocks and a Triode Electronics modded ST-70, and I like the Sure more, much more. The Sure is a fabulously rich-sounding and dynamic amplifier. Smooth, too.

Naturally, my statements are based on my opinions, though I've sprinkled in some relevant facts. ;) YMMV, etc., etc.

--Alan

Hi Alan,

Welcome to AOS. Where are you from? :)

Marco.

leo

04-05-2010, 21:10

In the words of Mrs Doyle from Father Ted " Go on go on go on.....":eyebrows:

:lol: Mainly interested in this for use in the bedroom , it looks quite compact so seems the best option so far and lots to tinker with

I allso want something different to try for the main system too which was going to be the first thing to sort out, so many choices :doh:

aquapiranha

04-05-2010, 21:39

:lol: Mainly interested in this for use in the bedroom , it looks quite compact so seems the best option so far and lots to tinker with

I allso want something different to try for the main system too which was going to be the first thing to sort out, so many choices :doh:

Too good for the bedrrom matey! I may try a couple of the two channel boards rather than the one four channel I have from Sure at the moment. Very good and silly VFM.

leo

04-05-2010, 21:53

Hmm, well it should prove interesting, looking at the schematic theres a few things which can be improved, if I get one I'll start a thread in the diy section

aquapiranha

04-05-2010, 22:00

Hmm, well it should prove interesting, looking at the schematic theres a few things which can be improved, if I get one I'll start a thread in the diy section

Blair knows a thing or two abou them, and he is a very nice helpful bloke too.

Check out his modding diary...

http://www.justblair.co.uk/sure-2x100w-tk2050-amplifier-first-impressions.html

musicmatters

05-05-2010, 00:25

Hi Alan,

Welcome to AOS. Where are you from? :)

Marco.

Hi Marco, great forum you have here. I've been lurking the better part of a year and I really enjoy reading what many members have to say. I updated my profile. I'm in Austin, Texas.

--Alan

musicmatters

05-05-2010, 00:33

Blair knows a thing or two abou them, and he is a very nice helpful bloke too.

Check out his modding diary...

http://www.justblair.co.uk/sure-2x100w-tk2050-amplifier-first-impressions.html

May I suggest this long yet essential thread (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/143669-sure-electronics-new-tripath-board-tc2000-tp2050.html) on diyaudio.com?

--Alan

AndrewR

05-05-2010, 23:16

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350339487410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This is a complete board based around the tk2050 tripath chip - output up to 100 watts into 4 ohms.

This evening I just modded that board with a new set of improved Wurth 4.7uF inductors, a better and passive heatsink and a better input stage. See photos.

http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ClassT1.jpg

http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ClassT2.jpg

Will report further when I box it and fire it up. Will take a little while though - busy life at the moment.

Andrew

Covenant

06-05-2010, 07:32

Ali Tait

06-05-2010, 07:58

Just seen a post on diyaudio pointing to a TA 2022 board on ebay with a built-in valve input stage for 79 Dollars delivered.Looks interesting.I can't post the link as I'm on my phone.

leo

06-05-2010, 08:01

I'd still stick a cap across the resistors on the adjust pin of the onboard regulator.
Its a supply for the audio controller and the input bias so best to keep it clean

leo

06-05-2010, 08:15

Just seen a post on diyaudio pointing to a TA 2022 board on ebay with a built-in valve input stage for 79 Dollars delivered.Looks interesting.I can't post the link as I'm on my phone.

This one?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Enthusiast-HIFI-TA2022-Tube-Digital-Amplifier-Hot-/120556687398?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item1c11bd1026

And some other variations

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TRIPATH-digital-power-amplifier-TA2022-2x90W-/310217112803?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483a617ce3

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/90W-90W-TA2022-audio-amplifier-board-/200465155821?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item2eaca786ed

Ali Tait

06-05-2010, 08:20

Yes thanks Leo.Reason I pointed to that is because this Hlly amp uses the same chip,and while on it's own the amp is good,used with my WAD Pre 2 it is excellent,so this board with a valve input stage might be very good.

leo

06-05-2010, 08:25

No probs Ali, I'm even more confused which to try now :lol:
Certainly no shortage of options with these Tripath amps, I've already got a pair of Hypex UCD's but still very tempted to try one of these Tripath's to fiddle with

Ali Tait

06-05-2010, 08:32

Well I like this TA 2022 chip.Sounds very valve-like to me,with very deep and tight bass.Have you tried the Hypex units? What do you think?

AndrewR

06-05-2010, 09:03

I have just ordered one of these Andrew so I will be watching your posts wth interest. The only doubt I had about this board was the fan as I sit close to the hifi and was worried about noise so I am pleased that it can be replaced with a passive heatsink. Where did you get it from?

Hi Covenant.

It is a Zalman ZM-NB47J (effectively a cooler for the Northbridge chip on a motherboard), can be had for £5.75 on Amazon.

If you are feeling brave enough, try replacing the inductors (Wuerth 4.7uH XXL types about 9A if I remember correctly. Available at Farnell) when you have removed the inductor. It was easier than I thought it would be. Here are my tips for doing that:

a) I used a relatively cheap, but temperature controlled iron
b) I removed the heatsink before replacing them, giving better soldering access.
c) I took on Sendler's advice about heating one side of the inductor (until the solder liquefies) and prizing it up with a small flat bladed screw driver
d) After prizing it up, completed the extraction by holding the top of the inductor with a pair of long nose pliers, heating the other side until it liquefies and it should easily pull off.
e) Tinned the new inductor solder pads
f) Tinned the board solder pads
g) Soldered while making sure the solder liquefies. May take a couple of goes
h) Measured the resistance between the pads

Page 139 of the diyaudio.com thread also shows a good diagram (you need to be logged in to see it) detailing how to improve the input stage.

Andrew

dave2010

06-05-2010, 16:40

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350339487410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This is a complete board based around the tk2050 tripath chip - output up to 100 watts into 4 ohms.

I'm not electronically savvy, but even I could plug in a laptop power supply for this to work. And work it does. I'm currently using it on a computer sourced set up with a Benchmark Dac1, then this board powering Castle Isis speakers. I love the sound. For £27 it is a 'no brainer' for anyone wanting to explore tripath chips. With no mods at all, it is a very classy sounding amplifier.

I've had the Sonic Impact, still got Trends Audio TA10 and the Teac Al700p and also use a winsome labs mouse. So, I've been a keen follower of this technology and sound. The Sure Electronics IMO is brilliant for the money. Typical of the tripath sound, it has a very clean and sweet top end. The bass goes down well, but lacks some articulation. But the mid range is wonderful, a little forward but brimming with detail. It is a more full bodied sound, compared to my leaner sounding Winsome Labs mouse.

I'm sure that improvements could be made on the power supply I'm using, but, in all honesty, for an office hifi setup, the sound is so musical, that I can't be bothered tweaking it further. It's also a setup that makes nonsense of the formulaic approach to system building ie spend 1/? of your budget on source, 1/? on amp and 1/? on speakers. The original sonic impact was startling for £20 to £30. The sure electronics amp board is much better IMO.
Just missed a Sonic Impact on eBay UK yesterday. Maybe though, not worth going that way if the board you mention is so much better, though doesn't it require just a little extra expertise - e.g to fit a volume control, and maybe put it in a box? Perhaps it could be kept out of the box as a work of art - perhaps on a board with some perspex above it. Not sure how well that'd go down. :)

Are the really cheap ones you see on eBay no good at all, or would I get a feel for these Tripath things if I bought one? There are even some (Lepai) ones for under £20, and there are loads for about £20 plus around £10 shipping - though not sure how reliable ordering from China is. I really would just like to hear one first, and then decide how much to spend. Are there any Tripath designs sold in regular hi-fi shops by well known makes (e.g embodied in currently available amps costing betwen £80-£500), in which case I could maybe arrange an audition? Buying a more expensive one, such as the HLLY 90 or a Bantam or making up one as suggested are all options, but I've still no idea what I'd be buying into. That's why I wanted to bid on the Sonic Impluse as I figured I could flog it on again if I didn't like it.

I'm still somewhat intrigued by the technology. The patents on the chips suggest that the design doesn't just use simple Class D techniques. For a start, PWM is I think replaced by PDM (Pulse Density Modulation), but it has occurred to me that there could be multiple digital signal paths in the chip, and slightly more complex switching at the power end than a really simple design would suggest. Also I need to swat up even on Class D further, as I don't know if they operate in positive and negative going directions, or simply with one polarity and then a DC offset adjustment (which could be a pain, as it might be signal dependent). There could be some quite ingenious techniques used to make these things work and deliver the higher quality claimed in these T-amp variants.

Ali Tait

07-05-2010, 20:19

Leo,found this on ebay-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260583012870&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_6321wt_960

Could be used with any tripath amp.

dave2010

08-05-2010, 07:54

Also I need to swat up even on Class D further, as I don't know if they operate in positive and negative going directions, or simply with one polarity and then a DC offset adjustment (which could be a pain, as it might be signal dependent). Not only that, but I discovered I didn't really know how switching power supplies work. I've since found out more and even about buck and boost circuits, and this poster might help a bit - http://focus.ti.com/lit/sg/sluw001d/sluw001d.pdf There's a lot more to power supply design than I'd thought, and rather a lot of design variants.

When I stopped to think about it, I was surprised to think that the rather small mobile phone chargers work using this kind of technology - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply Maybe I'll dismantle a spare one to see what's inside!

Here is another fairly detailed web site - http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/327

The pages at How Stuff Works are I think, rather simpler and don't really go into much detail.

dave2010

08-05-2010, 07:58

This one?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Enthusiast-HIFI-TA2022-Tube-Digital-Amplifier-Hot-/120556687398?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item1c11bd1026

From the website -
10.The board have debuggered to the best state, and re-check before shipping, please rest assured to use.

Funny things these people get up to! :)

leo

08-05-2010, 08:01

Well I like this TA 2022 chip.Sounds very valve-like to me,with very deep and tight bass.Have you tried the Hypex units? What do you think?

Hi Ali,

Sorry I missed this.

I've had the Hypex's a few years now run as mono's , PSU's using MBR20200discrete rectifiers, 4-pole T-net caps , I've done some mods to the amp modules etc.
The sound isn't bad really, detailed and controlled but not as lifelike as I'd like, I want something which is going to be a step up rather than sideways move if possible. Theres obviously other options like a valve amp or some other decent solid state amp to try, dunno :)

Ali Tait

08-05-2010, 08:18

Cheers Leo,they seem to get a lot of good comments on diyaudio,but sounds like they're not as good as they are made out to be.Maybe try one of those valve buffers on the front end?

leo

08-05-2010, 09:33

Cheers Leo,they seem to get a lot of good comments on diyaudio,but sounds like they're not as good as they are made out to be.Maybe try one of those valve buffers on the front end?

I think its more like I expected too much from them tbh :o can be quite a picky scroat at times

I've been running them balanced input directly from the modified Buffalo32 dac using its volumite to control the vol, probably the best I've heard them so far.
Could probably try valve buffers , I guess this may just add flavour? ideally I'd just like to try a real good kick arse diy amp, something new but better rather than different :lol:

dave2010

08-05-2010, 09:54

Jerry
I have just ordered one of these Andrew so I will be watching your posts wth interest. The only doubt I had about this board was the fan as I sit close to the hifi and was worried about noise so I am pleased that it can be replaced with a passive heatsink. Where did you get it from?I've noted that some articles about this or very similar boards have a heatsink. Possibly there've been design changes. I've emailed the suppliers to ask about this. Looking at one of the articles (which had a heatsink) it seems it does get a bit hot, so a design with a fan would probably switch on. I did ask whether the fan would be on most of the time, which might not matter so much if it only came on under high loads. I'd be interested to know what you find out.

AndrewR

08-05-2010, 10:46

Dave I believe the fan is on all the time and some reports stated that it can induce currents in the output and pollute the 5v line. Also I don't like the idea of something vibrating and causing microphony (although SMDs are less susceptible).

The stock cooling design choice has changed over time. It's now a small silver heatsink with fan attached to the 5v regulator (hence always on). Old designs had the heatsink glued and required a hot-air gun or hairdryer to melt it and safely remove - nowadays it is NOT glued in place and hence much easier to replace.

Andrew

Ali Tait

08-05-2010, 10:57

I think its more like I expected too much from them tbh :o can be quite a picky scroat at times

I've been running them balanced input directly from the modified Buffalo32 dac using its volumite to control the vol, probably the best I've heard them so far.
Could probably try valve buffers , I guess this may just add flavour? ideally I'd just like to try a real good kick arse diy amp, something new but better rather than different :lol:

Well as I've said before,this Hlly amp is good on it's own,but is made excellent by using it with my Pre 2.Just MHO though!

I know Dave Hewitt has built a Hypex amp.Have you noticed an improvement with a valve pre Dave?

leo

08-05-2010, 22:37

Well as I've said before,this Hlly amp is good on it's own,but is made excellent by using it with my Pre 2.Just MHO though!

I know Dave Hewitt has built a Hypex amp.Have you noticed an improvement with a valve pre Dave?

Thanks Ali, the other option is that valve output stage for the Sabre dac:eyebrows:

Ali Tait

08-05-2010, 23:11

Yes indeed,I'm thinking about that myself.I heard Nick's,and loved it.

Ali Tait

08-05-2010, 23:14

He doesn't have the dac I listened to,but he's gong to put something similar together for Owston,so I'll get a chance to hear it with the Hlly and the Touch.

dave2010

02-06-2010, 14:37

He doesn't have the dac I listened to,but he's gong to put something similar together for Owston,so I'll get a chance to hear it with the Hlly and the Touch.I just had an email about a new version of the Bantam Gold from the people at Temple Audio (http://www.templeaudio.net/). Pity they've raised the price a bit, though try to soften the blow by offering a cable as a "freebie" :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure

02-06-2010, 14:45

id spotted that... be interesting to see how good it is over the original..

Ali Tait

02-06-2010, 23:29

Yes indeed,and also against the Hlly.

The Vinyl Adventure

02-06-2010, 23:45

Indeed!

Have you seen all the amps they do Ali ... I wonder if any of the other ones are much cop
http://www.hllyelectronics.com/index.php?cPath=21

Ali Tait

03-06-2010, 06:56

Yes I've had a look.They mentioned on diyaudio that they have a new amp coming out that will only be sold through their website.Supposed to be their best yet,but then they would say that!

dave2010

03-06-2010, 08:27

Ali

Did I miss something else too? When you first mentioned the HLLY 90 I thought it was available for under £100, but since then the prices have gone up quite a lot - or so I think. Maybe I got the prices wrong in the first place?

At the current prices, the Bantam units don't seem to compare too badly, though whether it's worth going for Gold I don't know, as it's around twice the price of the base model. I asked the company how it worked and what it's like. They say they moved on from the basic Tripath designs, and the new ones are much better, but then, as you say, they would say that.

Have many round here tried the Bantams, gold plated or otherwise?

Ali Tait

03-06-2010, 08:41

It's the T amp 20 that is about 70 quid I think,the 90 is 158 delivered.As for the Bantams,as I say,I've not heard any,be interesting to compare.I reckon they'll probably be pretty good.

AndrewR

17-06-2010, 11:23

Techno Commander

27-06-2010, 01:40

I am sorely tempted to lay down 50 notes on the Topping TP21, which uses the TA2021 chip. I think this could make a usefull little amp to run the PC speakers. I find the internal view exceptionally appealing.

http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200909/17/55/f0011355_293760.jpg

squeezethatbuffalo

16-08-2010, 18:14

For those looking for a nice TA2022 amp, the Topping TP60 seems to be a viable and less costly (at least where I live) alternative to the HLLY 90. After over 100 hours of burn in, the sound has become quite impressive, as opposed to just "great value for the money". I'm still not sure whether it sounds like a good valve amp, but it certainly has some qualities of one, such as spaciousness and good midrange.

Here's a picture of its innards:
http://www.tpdz.net/tpupfile/201055152027.jpg

I've been thinking about upgrading the already-decent components to something fancier, as well as removing the volume control after getting my Volumite. Open to opinions and advices!

Again, big thanks to Ali and John for recommending the HLLY 90. I would've never taken T-AMPs seriously if not for them!

Ali Tait

16-08-2010, 18:19

Glad you like it Alex.They are rather good are they not? As you say,they do have some of the qualities of a valve amp.I found the Hlly sounded much better fed from my valve preamp,so you may find the same with the Topping.

squeezethatbuffalo

16-08-2010, 18:37

Hi Ali,

Actually, I WILL be using a valve preamp with mine... soon. However, instead of adding a valve preamp into the system, I plan on "transforming" my Buffalo DAC into one (I need to stop stealing Leo's ideas)! I may replace the Sowters in Nick's schematic with Lundahl LL1689s though, as I really like the results of my current LL1527 "passive output stage" setup.

Cheers,

Ali Tait

16-08-2010, 18:39

Sounds good,let us know how you get on.

squeezethatbuffalo

16-08-2010, 18:55

I'm hoping to complete the project by the end of next month, as I probably won't even receive my Buffalo II+Volumite until mid September. I guess I could start on the valve output stage first... Either way, I'll keep you posted.

technobear

17-08-2010, 18:38

For those looking for a nice TA2022 amp, the Topping TP60 seems to be a viable and less costly (at least where I live) alternative to the HLLY 90.

Where exactly do you live? Perhaps you could edit it into your profile :)

(hint: it's not optional)

squeezethatbuffalo

17-08-2010, 23:41

Where exactly do you live? Perhaps you could edit it into your profile :)

(hint: it's not optional)

Oh, thanks for reminding me. Done. :)

technobear

18-08-2010, 09:32

Oh, thanks for reminding me. Done. :)

Everyone will now be Googling 'Taichung City' :lol:

squeezethatbuffalo

23-08-2010, 23:39

technobear

24-08-2010, 06:36

Small update on the Topping TP60, I just bypassed the ALPS pot, and the results were rather surprising.

I fully expected a very good digital volume control - like the Volumite - to better the ALPS, but it turned out that even the one on SBT sounded superior to me. :mental:

I think the volume control is a performance bottleneck for these integrated T-AMPs. I guess that's what Ali's been trying to tell us all along!

The volume pot is a bottleneck on most amplifiers ;)

I changed the Alps Blue on my Croft for a Glasshouse Seiden/Takman Metal Film stepped attenuator. This gave a large increase in transparency and microdetail with a commensurately large decrease in noise.

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/potentiometers.html

squeezethatbuffalo

24-08-2010, 12:48

I don't deny that ;)

I found it "surprising" because I normally prefer analog volume control over the SBT's digital one. Then again, it shouldn't surprise me at all, since the pot on the TP60 HAS to be a low quality one due to the low price tag.

Unfortunately, the better pots just won't fit in the small case. So yea, a good pre seems like the best solution. Looks like I'm rediscovering the wheel! :lol:

Ali Tait

24-08-2010, 14:21

Yes agreed,I'd take the pot out if you're going to keep the amp.

squeezethatbuffalo

31-08-2010, 07:42

Hi Ali,

Do you still have your Hlly TAMP-90? What mods have you done to your Hlly, if any?

I've done a few to my TP60 lately, and I'm looking for new ideas.

Thanks in advance!

Ali Tait

31-08-2010, 07:58

Hi Alex,
No,I sold it to another forum member.I didn't do any mods as I liked the sound.What mods have you done to yours?

squeezethatbuffalo

31-08-2010, 09:00

Hi Ali,

As you already know, I removed the volume pot in favor of digital volume control.

Remember our short discussion about replace the input capacitors with more "exotic" ones? Well, that didn't happen due to space constraints. The only Mundorf that fits is the 0.33uf variety. Not good.

Fortunately, I found a great alternative - the MKP2000.
http://ucccap.myweb.hinet.net/pics/2KP4u7J100.jpg
They aren't the best caps around, but pretty damn close when VFM is factored in. These caps are balanced, neutral, and sound clean without being analytical. I like the "MKP2000" because they can be used practically everywhere, and it's actually OKAY do so without adding too much color or breaking the bank.

I feel that the MKP2000s are significantly better than the stock Epcos MKPs as input capacitors (even without any burn in). The vocals are much improved, and the low end sounds more "solid" than stock.

After listening to the modded amp for a while, I couldn't help but wonder what other mods can be done (with the absence of the schematic). So I opened up the amp again and took a careful look. To my dismay, the chassis wires and internal connectors seemed rather shoddy. Definitely room for improvement. I removed the stock wires and connectors, and soldered in Mundorf 1.5mm silver/gold (PCB to speaker terminal) and Belden silver plated copper wires (input 1 RCA jacks to PCB).

The sonic improvement was significant, even more so than the input capacitor mod. :eek: The sound of my TP60 has become noticeably more musical, tonally balanced, and detailed. Not what I expected, but I like pleasant surprises!

I think the TP60 is a great VFM amp in stock form, and a serious contender as a main system amplifier after eliminating its biggest weaknesses.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/6562/img0049d.jpg

Ali Tait

31-08-2010, 11:52

Sounds a worthwhile mod.How about swapping the rectifier bridge for some hexfreds? Not sure how much of an improvement it'll be,but worth a try given the low cost I'd say.

squeezethatbuffalo

31-08-2010, 12:30

Thanks for the suggestion Ali.

I'll let my amp burn in for a while before I try out any new mods though. I want to be a bit more scientific this time ;)

squeezethatbuffalo

18-09-2010, 04:10

Still waiting for the arrival of my BII and Legato, my fingers got itchy...

http://www.furutech.com/items/FI-03.jpg

Yep, I replaced the stock IEC inlet with a fancy rhodium plated Furutech. The picture shows only one side of it, but I'm too lazy to reopen the case, we all know what one looks like ;)

Initial impressions are rather favorable.
Cons: minor reduction in bass, slightly thinner and cooler sound.
Pros: better imaging, separation, slightly better dynamics, and deeper soundstage. Performance sounds a bit more "lively" than before. Interesting :)

Is the mod worth it? To my ears, yes. Some may feel reluctant to invest 1/5 of the retail price on a "cheapo" amp, but I think it's worth trying out.

goraman

18-09-2010, 17:42

little dot also makes Class T amps.

Ali Tait

18-09-2010, 17:51

squeezethatbuffalo

18-09-2010, 18:26

little dot also makes Class T amps.

I never knew! How does it sound? :)

squeezethatbuffalo

18-09-2010, 18:41

Cool,nice one Alex.

Thanks Ali!

I know I'm not doing anything drastic or special here, but I have very little knowledge regarding T-Amps, so it's best to play safe. I'm hoping that the T60 gains enough popularity so that REAL modders will start threads like this (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/143669-sure-electronics-new-tripath-board-tc2000-tp2050.html) to help out newbies like me :lol:

However, I'm not saying that the aforementioned mods aren't worthwhile. Quite the contrary. Though the quality of Chinese audio (and the electric components inside) have improved over the years, I found that the companies tend to cut costs by using low ("industrial" to be fair) quality accessories and wiring. Upgrading them with decent audiophile may bring noticeable improvement! At least that's what my ears think ;)

Oh, and I'm thinking about performing a well known yet somewhat controversial mod; bypassing rectifier diodes with small value (probably going to use MKP2000 0.01uf) capacitors. Has anyone tried it on an amp? What are your thoughts?

goraman

18-09-2010, 18:44

I never knew! How does it sound? :)

I really don't know much about class T amps but I have faith in Sword Yang as an engeneer,he gives you the most for your money and has a good ear.

look at the little Dot product line and they only make nice stuff,useing very good componates.There is room to swap there really good capacitors for Elna Silmic or Black Gates (little dot tells me they test menny componates and stop when the upgrade has little to no affect on the sound so they can keep the cost down.)
They stand behind there product 100% and sell direct too.

squeezethatbuffalo

20-09-2010, 13:18

I really don't know much about class T amps but I have faith in Sword Yang as an engeneer,he gives you the most for your money and has a good ear.

look at the little Dot product line and they only make nice stuff,useing very good componates.There is room to swap there really good capacitors for Elna Silmic or Black Gates (little dot tells me they test menny componates and stop when the upgrade has little to no affect on the sound so they can keep the cost down.)
They stand behind there product 100% and sell direct too.

Did a bit of googling, and looks like the Little Dot T-Amps have gone out of production. Or at least temporarily available :scratch:

Ali Tait

20-09-2010, 14:11

If you're looking to try another t-amp Alex,have a go with the Hlly 90.

squeezethatbuffalo

20-09-2010, 17:40

If you're looking to try another t-amp Alex,have a go with the Hlly 90.

Hi Ali,

Sorry if I misled you, but I'm not in the market for another T-Amp (yet). I have successfully piqued the interest of several friends though, and I'll pass on your advice if they decided to take the plunge.

Cheers,

squeezethatbuffalo

20-09-2010, 17:41

Today I paid my audio guru/friend a visit for a reality check.

While I am very happy with my modded TP60, I wanted the opinion from a neutral third party, who is not overly excited about the find like I am. My girlfriend has some renown in the local audiophile community for having "golden ears". Her opinion is highly regarded in "equipment shootouts", partly due to her good hearing, but mostly because she has no preconceptions regarding audio equipment, and is blissfully ignorant of "audiophile jargons".

But can I trust her on this? Hell no, she must be glad that I feel perfectly content with (relatively) inexpensive equipment! Conflict of interest! ;)

Anyways, this friend of mine is a truly talented fellow. He has plenty of experience with "Hi-End" audio, but now he almost exclusively uses self-designed/built equipment. He even designs his own boxes! And boy they sound good! :eyebrows: Unfortunately (for less talented DIYers like me), he only makes them in very small quantities for himself and close friends who are interested.

Before I digress any further... I'm happy to report that we TA2022 lovers aren't delusional!

"Hey, this amp isn't bad!" was what he said. Mind you, this came from a tube lover who is accustomed to Hi-End stuff ;)

Okay, so the little amp isn't bad, but not great either. I suddenly recalled the advice from a certain audiophile who lives in Scotland, so I asked him to add his favorite tube preamp between my Buffalo (the old 24... I only had enough time left on Sunday to put together the Volumite:() and the TP60.

I felt as if my TP60-2.1x just got upgraded to TP60-4.1x! :cool: That's one hell of a preamp! He told me that the preamp is OTL-OCL design, which is the combined effort of him and two other friends. IIRC, one is an EE professor and the other a maths professor. I don't know much about tubes, but he told me it's an uncommon approach, and the development process involved a lot of calculus. To be honest, I was a bit shocked. Did he just put tubes and calculus in the same sentence? :ner:

Things got even more interesting (to me anyway) after he opened the box. If the tubes are removed from the PCB, it would look ALOT more like a DAC than a pre :scratch: I think he said something about ICs controlling voltage so that the DC servo would always prevent DC from going to the output... but I understand or remember little of what he said :lol:

No matter, it sounded so good, I must have my precious! http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/precious.jpg

Fortunately, he still has a couple of spare PCBs left, and is willing to build me one. Great! The dumb DIYer approach has paid off yet again, all I need to do is wait and go to the bank :lol: He's a busy man though, who has a karaoke and a wedding video/photo studio to run, so I'll have to be very patient.

Techno Commander

20-09-2010, 18:06

It might not "sound bad", but it probably sounds a lot better than any other amp for $100. People are comparing these with $1000 amps.

squeezethatbuffalo

20-09-2010, 18:21

Hi Andy,

We should take http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/15373-albert_einstein_theory_relativity.jpg into consideration.

I actually consider "not bad" flattering, since the equipment that were compared to the TP60 to are very nice, I think it's safe to say they're significantly better than an average $1000 amp.

Oh, and the stock TP60 costs a little more than $100, it's about $160 USD without shipping. But I agree with you, the TP60 is definitely comparable to $1000 amps even in stock form. In fact, I like my TP60 so much that I have no plans of upgrading amplification in the near future after getting my new preamp. I might attempt to mod the TP60 a bit more, but that's about it.

Cheers,

aquapiranha

20-09-2010, 19:26

When I had the little Trends TA 10.1 (which I very much regret selling now) I loved it. If I ever get the funds I might get another. Oh, it uses the TA2024.

Ali Tait

20-09-2010, 19:33

Good stuff Alex,these amps do seem to respond well to a good valve pre,and as you say,used like this they do rival amps costing a lot more.

Covenant

20-09-2010, 20:30

Good stuff Alex,these amps do seem to respond well to a good valve pre,and as you say,used like this they do rival amps costing a lot more.

At the risk of repeating myself-a Lightspeed attenuator is well worth trying.

Ali Tait

20-09-2010, 20:50

Not heard one of those yet,read good things though.One thing with the 2022 that a lot of people seem to say is that it has good bass but can sound a bit too clean,so I think a good valve pre is a panacea for that,giving a really good ,well rounded sound when used together.

goraman

21-09-2010, 01:39

what is a class T amp?
I understand class A, A/B.
Dose it just mean it has no plate current most of the time?

squeezethatbuffalo

21-09-2010, 03:10

Good stuff Alex,these amps do seem to respond well to a good valve pre,and as you say,used like this they do rival amps costing a lot more.

Hi Ali,

I used to think that pres are not necessary if a good volume control - such as the Volumite - is present, and that valve pres do offer benefits but adds unwanted color/distortion. I guess I just never heard one that's good enough :doh:

To my surprise, the soon-to-be-mine valve pre adds little color to the system. My friend told me that it's mostly due to the design. I did a bit of internet research on OTL-OCL tube designs after I came back, but I can't find anything helpful. :scratch:

Any fellow members out there who are familiar with this type of tube equipment?

Cheers,

squeezethatbuffalo

21-09-2010, 03:12

what is a class T amp?
I understand class A, A/B.
Dose it just mean it has no plate current most of the time?

According to Wikipedia:

A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.

It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but improves the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[1]

The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques. Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator. The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.

Despite increased performance at a price similar to class D technology, financial difficulties have caused Tripath to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on 8 February 2007.

goraman

21-09-2010, 04:35

According to Wikipedia:

A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.

It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but improves the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[1]

The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques. Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator. The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.

Despite increased performance at a price similar to class D technology, financial difficulties have caused Tripath to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on 8 February 2007.

Sounds like alot of parts to go wrong to me.
Simple is better,try a small tube amp.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1288927970

Ali Tait

21-09-2010, 07:09

Alex,just had a thought,what's the vol pot in the amp? Is it suitable for shunting?

squeezethatbuffalo

21-09-2010, 15:49

Sounds like alot of parts to go wrong to me.
Simple is better,try a small tube amp.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1288927970

It may not sound like the best idea, but it does sound good :eyebrows:

I was once skeptical like you, but hearing is believing.

squeezethatbuffalo

21-09-2010, 16:11

Alex,just had a thought,what's the vol pot in the amp? Is it suitable for shunting?

Hi Ali,

Sorry, I have no idea. I didn't pay much - if any - attention to the volume control, as I believe I already found the best solution for my system.

In fact, I asked my friend to build me the preamp without volume control. He seems to think it's a good idea as well (in the context of my system).

Can it still be called a preamp if it doesn't have VC? :scratch:

But if you'd like to know, I'll ask him next time I visit him. Probably after I've finished my BufII though, he's quite interested in "auditioning" the new and improved version after listening to my Buf24.

Cheers,

Ali Tait

21-09-2010, 16:39

I meant in the Topping,or have you removed the vol pot?

Or since your friend is building you a pre without a vol pot,how are you controlling volume?

squeezethatbuffalo

21-09-2010, 16:46

Hi Ali,

The vol pot has been removed for a while, see here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=146053&postcount=87).

I'm using TPA's Volumite for volume control. It's the best VC I've ever heard, digital or otherwise.

Cheers,

Ali Tait

21-09-2010, 17:02

Ah yes,remember now.

Reid Malenfant

21-09-2010, 17:38

According to Wikipedia:

A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.

It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but improves the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[1]

The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques. Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator. The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.

Despite increased performance at a price similar to class D technology, financial difficulties have caused Tripath to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on 8 February 2007.
Jeez, that's the difficult way of saying it :eyebrows:

If you want it easier the amp uses switching outputs that are similar to class D. The difference being that at lower output levels the amp switches in the low MHz range to improve linearity & at higher outputs reverts to something like 400KHz to improve efficiency to avoid undue switching losses ;)

Batty

21-09-2010, 22:23

squeezethatbuffalo

22-09-2010, 06:39

Jeez, that's the difficult way of saying it :eyebrows:

If you want it easier the amp uses switching outputs that are similar to class D. The difference being that at lower output levels the amp switches in the low MHz range to improve linearity & at higher outputs reverts to something like 400KHz to improve efficiency to avoid undue switching losses ;)

Hi Mark,

I'm afraid that your explanation is much better :lol:

I think it also answers why T-Amps - even the higher powered ones - sound better with high efficiency speakers. I like mine best with my Fostex 166E floorstands.

Cheers,

Ali Tait

22-09-2010, 07:33

Yes,I used mine with MLTL's using Fostex Fe167e's and FT17h supertweeters.

Thermionic

22-09-2010, 09:36

I hope I am still sort of on topic but a long time ago I built an amp with a pair of LM1875s. I point to point wired it, but only with a single rail supply so it has (bypassed) output caps. I used it mostly to drive a Stax energiser but once compared it with my Leak Stereo 20 into a pair of LS3/5a’s.

It sounded depressingly similar to the Leak except it didn’t seem to image as well and perhaps was not as ‘refined’, so I carried on with the Leak. I should dig it out again and have another listen. But don't they use these sorts of chips in most mid-range stuff these days?

jonners

22-09-2010, 12:41

I'm putting together a little 'shed' system from kits, the amp is a TA2024 tripath jobbie, I have a DAC and a phono stage all separate, for a volume control I am thinking of putting a 50K Alps stereo pot in a box with phonos in and out so I can plug it in anywhere in the system ie between DAC and amp or between source and DAC, is this a feasable Idea or should I put it at the input to the amp inside the amp box.

Cheers

Hi Steve,

Inside the amp box would be best. The pot would be useless between source and DAC since that's a digital connection.
You could have two pairs of phonos in the amp box with a switch for selecting DAC or phono.

squeezethatbuffalo

22-09-2010, 18:50

Yes,I used mine with MLTL's using Fostex Fe167e's and FT17h supertweeters.

My fullrangers are TWQT, thinking about adding some supertweeters, maybe T90As.

Any plans to get another T-Amp in the near future? :eyebrows:

Ali Tait

22-09-2010, 19:45

dave2010

23-09-2010, 05:53

Batty

23-09-2010, 11:21

Just hooked everything together pc to DAc to amp to Castles, sounds pretty good for the outlay.

squeezethatbuffalo

25-09-2010, 01:52

Not at the moment,I'm happy with a pair of bridged DPA Enlightenment power amps,and hopefully the direct-coupled GM70 amps for my statics will be done in the next couple of months.Think that'll be it on the amp front for quite a while!

Very nice! I've been thinking about getting some new valve amps as well, but that won't happen until I move to my new place.

squeezethatbuffalo

25-09-2010, 02:06

Update on the "snubber cap" mod: I added one 0.01uf MKP2000s to each of the MUR420 diodes on my TP60. Initial impressions were smoother highs and slightly quieter background, no apparent tradeoffs. Not sure if running in would change things, since my DAC was upgraded to BufII soon after I performed the mods.

For those with a T-Amp that uses similar fast switching diodes, I think this mod is worth trying. Any reasonably small (0.01uf~0.068uf) film cap with a high voltage rating should do, cheap MKPs works for me :)

spikeyfaz

28-09-2010, 07:28

An original Sonic Impulse amp sold on bay for about £36 last night. I did bid, and was sad not to be able to rebid as my network had problems. I wasn't intending to go that high though, so now I feel better!

Was it a Sonic Impact amp? If so I wouldn't worry too much about not winning it. I've lived with one of these amps for several years now. The clarity these little boxes is certainly pretty good given the small cost. However, Bass!! Not a lot of it!!!

I've moved several times during my ownership of the Sonic Impact and had different set-ups. It never failed to work but I couldn't live with da missing bass. I've also got a NuForce Icon and this is a bit better in bass but loses out in the clarity.

I recently got an old (but recently serviced) NAD 3130 and found my missing bass. :)

Mike

Ali Tait

28-09-2010, 09:17

Get a tripath amp with a ta-2022 chip.No lack of bass!

spikeyfaz

28-09-2010, 12:19

Get a tripath amp with a ta-2022 chip.No lack of bass!

That's worth knowing.

I've been thinking about revisiting valves but I can't get used to what I perceive as indistinct bass. Might have to take a closer look at a ta-2022 chipped amp.

It's a shame I can't pop down to my local hifi emporium (does such a thing exist now?) and have a listen.

Ali Tait

28-09-2010, 13:30

I had the Hlly t-amp 90,search ebay,90w/ch into 4 ohms so plenty welly.I was very surprised how good this is.Good bass grip,and the mid and top sounds quite valve-like in a lot of ways IMO.

Ali Tait

28-09-2010, 13:32

Oh,and sounds very good on it's own,but even better driven by a good pre.

pabbab

15-10-2010, 10:27

Howdy folks, after reading through this and other threads about the supposedly magical t-amps I submit to you a question. Would a hlly or Bantam be appropriate in filling in the blank in my budget system (in a smallish room):

Macbook (Lossless) > Caiman > _______ > BW 602s2

or should I go with something more traditional (nad 316, for example).

Hope this is a good place to post this question, didn't really feel it needed a new thread...

Cheers,

Patrick

Ali Tait

15-10-2010, 10:40

I'd go for the Hlly myself. Plenty power and sounds very good.

dave2010

15-10-2010, 11:58

Ali

Are any of the other HLLY amps any good? See http://www.hllyaudio.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=e9gqi79sngk8b0a1jb1eegpg64

I know you like the 90, but is the 20 any good?

Ali Tait

15-10-2010, 13:28

Well the reason I like the 90 is because it uses the ta2022 chip,which gives a sound that I like,quite valve-like in some respects,yet with a very deep and tight bass,at least compared to most valve amps I've heard. I'm sure the other amps in their range are good,but they will have a different sound as they use different chips.
Not sure,but I think the 20 uses the same chip as the Bantam,and Hamish has both the 90 and the Bantam,and prefers the Hlly. Perhaps he may comment.

pabbab

15-10-2010, 17:55

Thanks for your input Ali Tait,

I'm hesitating between the Bantam Gold and the hlly 90, though I think I'll go for the hlly based on the 'tube amp' sound of the ta2022. I'm a little bit worried about the hissing that lots of folks seem to experience, but I think I'll take the chance.

The Bantam has the TA2024 chip, which has what's been described as a 'faster, crisper more precise' sound. An interesting article that discusses the two chips while reviewing an Italian t-am can be found here (http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/power_ts_e.html)

My taste tends towards more natural and relaxed...

If anyone has any experience with the Bantam Gold, though, I'd love to know about it!

cheers.

Ali Tait

15-10-2010, 18:39

If that is your taste,go for the Hlly IMO. Don't worry about the hissing,that was a problem in the earlier iterations of this amp,but has now been sorted. Put it this way,I was using mine with a pair of DIY MLTL's using Fostex Fe167e's at around 93dB/W/M,and I had to have my ear right up to the speaker cone to hear anything.The DPA power amps I'm using at the moment are noisier in this respect.

Trust me,you will love the Hlly.At the asking price,it's astonishing value.

Batty

16-10-2010, 22:41

I have a TA2024 Tamp between my PC, DAC and Castle Richmonds, I bought the Sure electronics prebuilt PCB and a case an LED and volume pot, put it all together although I'm only using a 9v supply (all I had lying around) not 12v it is quite impressive.

stevekr

23-10-2010, 13:53

Hi guys,
I've a few T-amps, I love 'em. Recently I've been using a Sure with the TA 2024C chip, I've read on a few reviews that Tripath chips invert the speaker output. Feeling curious I reversed the speaker connections on the back of my Klipsch RB 81's. Holy Sh!t!! What a difference for the better. I can't believe I hadn't tried this before :doh: I spoke with Seth Krinsky (great guy) at Virtue Audio and he said that on their amps they've already reversed the speaker polarity so you don't need to reverse it on Virtue amps. I have the Virtue One with with the 130v power supply.

Best tweek I've ever done and cost nothing, lol! Would love to know if anyone else tries this and let me know what they think. Please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed :)

Tarzan

23-10-2010, 14:34

Having mt interest tweaked, l am amazed at the sound of the Mini-T T amp, l am a convert- has anybody heard or own the Virtue Audio Sensation range of amplifiers and care to share their thoughts?:)

leo

23-10-2010, 16:20

talking of Virtue amps look what I've been playing with :) Currently listening to it in a second system, very nice amp too
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1060671.jpg

Tarzan

23-10-2010, 17:14

Thats the one l am interested in Leo, review,please, where did you get it- oh and it looks nice too!

Ashmore

24-10-2010, 10:38

OK so after reading up on the T amps, I'm pretty much sold on the idea for the second system I'm building.

But there are so many to choose from and I'm struggling to make decision (this is not unusual for me).

Do I go for the Mini T that Jerry is praising - thinking that 60 notes is a small investment to either prove or disprove the concept? I don't want to buy on import because of the hassle factor and delay.

Or should I recognise that until a week ago I was settled on getting a second hand cyrus and prepared to pay upwards of 300 quid - so why not go for something with some grunt? Kingrex 20u with PSU, or a bantam gold?

The man at item audio (who was very helpful) suggested the kingrex qs1 power amp would knock the socks off the kingrex 20u, but that's a little more again.

I will be using it with a SB3 via modded caiman or touch (on order) directly to proac signature reference 8 tablettes, which are rated at 87dB I think.

As for sound, I want non-fatiguing, not bright (the proacs are good in this respect) but with good clarity.

Thoughts anyone?

Simon

Ali Tait

24-10-2010, 11:11

Sounds like something with the TA2022 chip would suit you sir.

dave2010

25-10-2010, 16:59

Has anyone tried the Bantam monoblocks? Seems to be moving away from cheap options, but if the quality is good might be worthwhile. Perhaps Ali would simply suggest a pair of HLLY 90s?!?

Ali Tait

25-10-2010, 18:02

I believe the Hlly can be bridged.

Tarzan

25-10-2010, 18:17

Am l right in thinking the Hily T now has two inputs?:)

Ali Tait

25-10-2010, 18:35

Dunno. Just been looking at the Bantam stuff.Looks good,and you get a warranty too.

pabbab

02-11-2010, 15:12

Another ta2022 amp to throw out for consideration: the Poppulse t150.

Anyone tried it or anybody with an eye for these things want to take a look?

http://www.poppulse.com.hk/T150.html

stickers11

30-01-2011, 21:19

Hello alll,
New member. Great thread about T-amps. I currently have one of the smaller Topping T-amps, and am considering the TP60 to act as a power amp in my current setup. My preamp would be a NAD 116, which I am quite fond of: phono, remote, nice headphone output, XLR in and out, etc...
Would the TP60 be a suitable match? Speakers are Castle Tay monitors rated 87 dB. The TP60 should do 50 wpc into 8 ohms, which is more than the current 30 wpc NAD power amp I am using now. If I were to go ahead, how hard is it to jump the volume pot?

Ali Tait

30-01-2011, 21:46

You'd need to make sure both amps have the same gain, otherwise you will get an unbalanced sound

stickers11

30-01-2011, 21:55

Sorry, should have clarified. This topping would replace the current NAD power amp. Don't wish to bi-amp at this point.

Ali Tait

30-01-2011, 22:08

Ah right. No need to jumper the vol pot.Just set between two thirds and three quarters and forget about it.Use the NAD to control volume.

MartinT

31-01-2011, 08:11

The little Virtue ONE.2 looks like a real bargain, has the same chipset as the M901?

Tarzan

31-01-2011, 17:20

Let you know, as l am getting a home dem of the Sensation 901:cool:

pabbab

31-01-2011, 17:29

I recently picked up a Virtue one.2 second hand from someone who had already shipped it over to Europe. It's got the upgraded power supply they sell. Really an impressive little amp, so far. I do believe it has the same chipset as the Sensation. It's exceedingly easy to bypass the volume pot, which results in a more forward, immediate sound. I'll also be swapping out the capacitors to get closer to the Sensation's specs. The other differences being more inputs and copper posts (as well as the really tempting tube buffer option).

I'm still burning in a hlly tamp-90 that had a horrendously long stay in French customs before I give the two (destined to different set-ups) a comparison.

Ali Tait

31-01-2011, 17:42

Be interesting to read your impressions. I used to have a 90. Nice little amp.

Tarzan

31-01-2011, 17:52

IDIOT QUESTION ALERT could l use the PSU from my Cambridge audio 640p whose PSU reads 12v 500A written on it, l would like to try this on my Mini-T which has a 12v 2A PSU, ta:)

Reid Malenfant

31-01-2011, 17:58

No, the PSU can't supply enough current :rolleyes: It might well turn on & work at very low volume, but as soon as you start turning it up the PSU will go into current limit & the voltage will drop like a lead balloon :eyebrows:

12v 500A I could have sworn that said 12V 500mA a minute ago?

Tarzan

31-01-2011, 18:17

Indeed 12v 500mA, cheers Mark.:)

Ali Tait

31-01-2011, 18:31

Yes, only has a quarter of the required current. You could try it the other way round though, to see if there is any improvement on the Cambridge.

Reid Malenfant

31-01-2011, 18:31

Yeah, it's a no go i'm afraid - too little current output :doh:

WAD62

31-01-2011, 20:05

IDIOT QUESTION ALERT could l use the PSU from my Cambridge audio 640p whose PSU reads 12v 500A written on it, l would like to try this on my Mini-T which has a 12v 2A PSU, ta:)

Hi There, I also have a Mini-T, but with the 12v 5A SMPS, additionally I have a Muse M21 EX T-Amp, for which I bought an upgraded 60W linear PSU, which makes a massive difference to the Muse...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120609333234#ht_2362wt_812

...however it has only just returned from repair (as of 25mins ago), I started a thread on the repair in the DIY section about 5 weeks ago if you want to check it out. Mark et al were very helpful in the problem resolution...thanks again guys it's sounding very good again. :cool:

So buyer beware!!! :eyebrows:

I'll try it with the Mini-T when I can check out the polarity in better light, out of interest has your Mini-T got an adapter on the amp end of the power lead? I've just noticed mine has, which can't help... :scratch:

Tarzan

31-01-2011, 20:42

Hi Will, yes it has, interested to hear any thoughts of an upgraded PSU for the Mini-T

webby

31-01-2011, 21:02

WAD62

31-01-2011, 22:45

Hi Will, yes it has, interested to hear any thoughts of an upgraded PSU for the Mini-T

Strange about the adapter, I wondered if it was just the 5A version...I'll check the polarity very closely before I try the Muse PSU...and will report back. :eyebrows:

I'm sure the PSU will help the sound quality, as it does with the M21, but it does rather mess up the aesthetics...it's a beast! ;)

WAD62

31-01-2011, 22:53

I'm looking into the possibilty of using a small amp like the mini t and ive read a little about it's performance with high end kit.

How would it do with budget speakers like the q acoustics 2020 for instance?

Hi Lee,

I've been using mission 780SE bookshelf speakers with my T-Amps (along with SqueezeBox receivers) and they make a very neat solution for a secondary system.

I must admit to not having heard the Qs, but I'm sure they'll be reasonably similar in characteristics to most decent bookshelf speakers.

The sound is very punchy and open, but stick with copper cable as it might sound too bright with silver...as I found out on one system :doh:

John

01-02-2011, 02:42

I'm looking into the possibilty of using a small amp like the mini t and ive read a little about it's performance with high end kit.

How would it do with budget speakers like the q acoustics 2020 for instance?

I do not know your speakers but should work fine I found the amp to be clean fast and lots of detail I use all silver cables and did not have any issues

WAD62

01-02-2011, 16:23

I do not know your speakers but should work fine I found the amp to be clean fast and lots of detail I use all silver cables and did not have any issues

Probably too much of a sweeping statement from me John... ;)

Just to clarify with the mission 780SEs I found that the copper cables were slightly better for the Mini-T & the Muse M21, and necessary for the Bantam Gold, which was too bright with QED silver. (source being a M-Audio 2496)

On the other hand my missus is using a Bantam Classic with some Wharfedale diamonds, and the silver cable really helped there, otherwise the sound was rather dull with copper. (source being a Muse mini USB DAC) :)

P.S. The Muse PSU does improve the sound quality of the Mini-T, a richer fuller sound. The improvement is not as pronounced as with the Muse M21, but it's certainly a worthwhile upgrade.

Only problem is the reliability (or otherwise) of the muse PSU :eyebrows:

P.P.S. My mate bought a Mini-T about 2 weeks ago, it is different to mine, the speaker connectors have changed from the gold screw fit ones to banana plug only sockets, strangely identical to the ones used on the Muse, must be using very similar components...:scratch: Oh and more worryingly it blew up last week, it is being replaced as we speak.

N.B. It also has a polarity adaptor attached, so it looks to be the norm :)

Tarzan

01-02-2011, 18:42

WAD62

01-02-2011, 19:56

Interesting the Muse PSU made the Mini-T sound fuller, as l think ( in my system anyway) the Mini-T sounds very full, smooth and dynamic, but we always want more - did you get any increase in volume Will?:) Are we talking subtle improvement or a oh my gosh improvement?:)

Definitely more subtle with the mini-t (it probably has a better supply than the muse out of the box), with the muse it's 'Oh my gosh', must be making up for a more obvious deficiency in the muse.

No obvious major volume improvement with either, just a meatier sound, which I suppose is a bit of a contradiction...a fuller sound is probably a better way of saying it. ;)

Edit; If the Mini-T was my main system amp I would get the additional PSU, but as I use it in the kitchen and there's limited space I'll live with the standard PSU, and the muse M21 needs it more...

bigmarty

01-02-2011, 22:49

Hi Folks,

Just received my mini T-Amp HiFi Amplifier + 2A PSU TA2020 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180618781768&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:GB:1123#ht_4893wt_1141 and all I can say is WOW I'm absolutely gobsmacked that this £60 wee amp can sound in so many ways sound even better than £3000 worth of amps :doh: more detail, sweetness, openness, I'm actually shocked. I'll tell you what I will do, when Carol finishes her nightshift at the end of the week I'm going to do a blind A/B listening test with her and report back to this thread the results on Saturday plus some pics.

Marty

Welder

01-02-2011, 22:58

I’m not going to say what I’ve ordered this last week.
It’s got a bloody glass tube in though :eek:

(Omg, I’ll never live this down :doh:)

Techno Commander

01-02-2011, 23:00

Is the power supply linear or switched mode?

Welder

01-02-2011, 23:03

They...are Linear :eyebrows:

(Well, they wus when they gets here. Dont know how Linear they will be if I dont like them and start hammer adjustments)

Ali Tait

01-02-2011, 23:04

I’m not going to say what I’ve ordered this last week.
It’s got a bloody glass tube in though :eek:

(Omg, I’ll never live this down :doh:)

Tee-hee!

WAD62

02-02-2011, 10:12

Just as a general point about T-Amps, in my experience they seem to sound good even at a low volume. They don't seem to suffer from a 'sweet spot' in the same way as more conventional amps do.

So if you're not able to wack the volume up, or like me use one in the bedroom (no sniggering at the back ;)), they're ideal. :)

aquapiranha

02-02-2011, 11:00

This..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-100w-TK2050-TP2050-Tripath-Class-T-AMP-Board-Upgraded-/350432051271?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519760c047

Is a ridiculously good amp at a stupidly low price. It can be upgraded with a rotary encoder volume control for just a few quid more and there are many, many sites detailing upgrade opportunities. I had the four channel version and it sounded great. In fact, I intend to get one of these at some point and put it in a nice box from modushop.

WAD62

02-02-2011, 12:10

aquapiranha

02-02-2011, 12:16

That looks a bit cheeky, on board heat sink and fan for the chipset!!!

Please start a DIY thread if you do, I'd be very interested in copying, if my skills are up to it...;)

Hi Will. Many people replace the fan and heatsink with a passive alternative since it is essentially the same as a northbridge heatsink in a PC. You really do not need any DIY skills at all to build one of these into a case with a PSU. Sure also sell the Meanwell SWMP's ( many do not like these, but when I built the other amp with one, there was absolutley no audible noise or hum that I could detect) and they also do an offer with the amp and PSU together.

Steve

WAD62

02-02-2011, 12:39

Hi Will. Many people replace the fan and heatsink with a passive alternative since it is essentially the same as a northbridge heatsink in a PC. You really do not need any DIY skills at all to build one of these into a case with a PSU. Sure also sell the Meanwell SWMP's ( many do not like these, but when I built the other amp with one, there was absolutley no audible noise or hum that I could detect) and they also do an offer with the amp and PSU together.

Steve

Cheers Steve very tempting, especially with a passive heatsink, I can feel a project coming on...;)

aquapiranha

02-02-2011, 12:51

OK Will. Check out this feature, I am sure Blair would not mind me linking to it...

http://www.justblair.co.uk/sure-2x100w-tk2050-amplifier-first-impressions.html

WAD62

02-02-2011, 15:09

OK Will. Check out this feature, I am sure Blair would not mind me linking to it...

http://www.justblair.co.uk/sure-2x100w-tk2050-amplifier-first-impressions.html

Cheers Steve...presumably one can make them as a 'power amp' only, my idea was to have a couple of stereo power amps for bi-amping.

aquapiranha

02-02-2011, 16:34

Yes Will that is correct. If you want you can add a pot, or better still the rotary encoder that Sure can supply or leave as is and use a pre amp.

John

02-02-2011, 17:57

Looks like a real interesting project, now if there was only a idoit guide to this I go for it Would people be willing to help a complete novice in this

aquapiranha

02-02-2011, 20:07

Hi John. I am sure you will find the folks on here more than helpful when it comes to building stuff like this.

stickers11

03-02-2011, 05:09

Any suggested vendors for a Topping TP60? I figure most if not all come straight from Asia, but any sellers more reputable than others? Really wish there were more North American dealers for T-amps. Mind you Parts Express have a nice little unit:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-383

I digress, looking for something with more power, so TP60 it may be...

Techno Commander

03-02-2011, 08:27

The photos I have seen of the insides of the Toppings would suggest their capacitors are of better quality than many other makes use. The TP60 or TP21 would be my choice for a T amp.

WAD62

03-02-2011, 13:56

Yes Will that is correct. If you want you can add a pot, or better still the rotary encoder that Sure can supply or leave as is and use a pre amp.

Can I assume therefore that the Rotary Encoder is effectively a 'Digital Volume Control', and therefore better than a pot.

I might try an 'integrated' one first, my long term goal is to use 'digital amps' throughout (possibly to replace my Audiolab SX & P power amps), for efficiency reasons...as long as there's no compromise in sound quality that is...;)

Welder

05-02-2011, 18:34

Own up time.
I’ve been reading this T Class amp thread with a great deal of interest. For a start, there are a few contributors on this thread who’s opinions on audio I have come to respect, no silly claims, a willingness to experiment, seemingly no particular bias for any medium or any equipment, and more importantly, Scotsmen; probably almost as tight as me :rolleyes: :lol:

Despite my piss taking concerning the eye candy/secondary central heating/overpriced knobs and dials display addicts I baulked at the thought of some 3” by 3” non descript box with a transformer hanging off the back replacing my current array.
Yep, I’m human too ;)

Add to this my recent experience of some NuForce kit and the self acknowledged reality that I wasn’t going to be able to afford a NAD M2 for the foreseeable future (may not be that long at my age:eek:), the temptation to find out whether a T Class amp could put a smile on my face and stop my wallet from cringing in a corner eventually proved too much and I, or rather we, myself and two friends (told ya I was tight) bought one, or rather a bit of a selection.

We all tried to find out as much as we could about the different makes/kit combinations available and some very interesting discussions ensued; which chip? what power? Omg, those case look awful, your bloody joking mate, no tubes in my setup, those chokes look like they’ve been ripped out of a wall wart, switch modes, no thanks.
Me, well I was all for getting the cheapest, but I got over ruled:doh:; the general consensus being, lets give the T Cass the best chance of performing and go for something adaptable, caseless and with minimal building and maximum reputation.
This is what we bought.

http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=257&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836

http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=330&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836

http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=264&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836

http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=334&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836

We had a range of transformers between us so that saved a few quid.

Despite my protestations of having recently spent six quid on some exotic interconnects from Belkin and the heart stopping payment of fifty quid to a robbing electrician for a bit of paper I was forced to borrow a crowbar and prise open my wallet to the tune of £150!! :eek:

Autocostruire were extremely tolerant of our enquiries, delivered quickly a well packed box with excellent instructions and I highly recommend them as a company.

It took less than a day to build the 2020 kit and wire up so that the 2020 and T100 could both be used with the Tube Pre and the Power supply. The only real drawback is having to swap transformers and connect up the power supply from board to board.
I’m supposed to be putting them in cases but we haven’t got past squabbling over who’s turn it is to listen to them yet.

Frankly I’m gobsmacked by the sound these produce. The 100watt version is easily as good as my Quantum’s and does some things better than my Exposure and they haven’t even been properly boxed and connected yet, never mind tweaked and fully burnt in.
The 20 watt has enough power to drive my speakers where I live now but in a larger room they will clip and T class clipping is a lot more unpleasant to listen to than say a tube amp clipping.
The 20 watt can’t drive my mates Quads. The rest of us all have hand built speakers which we’ve had differing degrees of success with.
I’ve read a number of comments in the vein that while T Class may be some things, musical they’re not; bollocks, these are extraordinarily musical and so far completely untiring to listen to, one of the things I find most important and why I’ve stuck with the Exposure for years :mental:

Whether these are better than the Sonic T’s and the Bantam Golds I cant say having heard neither. However, these do have some sensible components, the air core chokes being particularly interesting.
True, they need boxes and this starts to push the price up considerably, particularly if you’re going for separate boxes for PSU and Pre and Power.
Autocostruire say that their single board built Tube Pre/PSU/T100 probably performs better than separates and I’m quite happy to take their word for this.

Are they worth the money? For around £400 for this
http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=333&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836
and this
http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=296&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836
or this if you were consider two T100 power amps (extra of course)
http://www.autocostruire.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=310&osCsid=5560f1b05c49c765e6c0c2719f592836
plus cases and time it would seem initially that the main reported benefit of T Class (cheapness) is no longer relevant.
I would say, forget about T Class as the poor mans option and start thinking that even if you spent £500 on a build these will blow anything else I’ve heard at the price out of the water.

Ali Tait

05-02-2011, 18:51

John, you may like the ta 2022 as in the Hlly T 90. Does very good bass with a liquid valve like mid with great detail. It does sound different to the 2020 though.

Ali Tait

05-02-2011, 19:03

Ali Tait

05-02-2011, 19:04

... the Mini-T is very good for the money though, probably 80-85 % of the Bantam sound.

Welder

05-02-2011, 19:17

WAD62

05-02-2011, 19:46

Regarding your comments in general, I have heard the Bantam against the mini-T, and I did prefer the Bantam. With the limited power from the bantam though, I don't think it will excel with a lot of commercial speakers of average sensitivity. Does work extremely well with the 95Db OB's though. In fact, I'd say they are as good as all but the best valve amps I've heard in most respects.

Hi Ali,

The Bantam Gold does seem quite speaker sensitive, on my mission 780SEs I found the Mini-T to have more bass. However I've just come back from my in-laws in Spain, the Bantam was their belated xmas pressie, along with a CA topaz CD10, and a pair of Polk audio tsi400s (they were 380 euros for a pair hence the purchase), and they are more sensitive than the missions. We basically looked for anything available in Spain at a reasonable cost.

They have a great room soundwise, but even taking that into consideration the sound was superb, considering it was a bit of a budget system, massive amounts of bass and beautiful detail, which confused the hell out of me... :eyebrows:

Ali Tait

05-02-2011, 19:59

I’m blaming you and your mates for this Ali :ner:
I’m still struggling a bit with the differing chips and with your OB’s you’ve probably got a bit more leeway with power than me and my mates.
The valve amps I’ve owned haven’t been particularly good so how these compare to some of the more esoteric makes I’ll take your word for.
I’ve got the T Class here for the weekend, ostensibly to at least decide on how to case them up but tbh I keep playing stuff :lol:
I doubt I’ll be buying any other make because so far to my ears these are more than adequate.
I will probably buy for myself the single board Tube Pre/T100/PSU and call it a day with a bit of tweaking.
I’ve got that bloody Dac you recommended on its way in a month or so and that’s going to cost so spending over :(

Well if you're blaming me for getting you a great sound for little dosh, then guilty as charged! :lol:

So you've got a Buffalo coming? Lucky you, it's the best digital I've heard BUT that was with Nick's valve ouput stage. He built one for someone with his stage in and also the Ivy, so it was easy to switch between. I've read nothing but good things about the Ivy on the net, but Nick's stage really did make the Ivy sound broken. Only problem is it uses a pair of Sowter output trannies, so would involve more spends!

Welder

05-02-2011, 20:25

I think the Dac will be ongoing Ali.
I’ve got the basic USB input coming with it but hopefully the new asynchronous Dac board they’re developing won’t be too far away.
I heard the basic Dac with I assume the standard output stage. The guy who had it didn’t build it and didn’t seem to know very much about it.
I’ve listened to quite a few Dacs over the last year and they weren’t “enough better” than the HRT Pro to warrant the expense and hassle, just different. The Dac 11 I heard was noticeably better and considerably cheaper than those with comparable sound.

Ali Tait

05-02-2011, 20:31

Hi Ali,

The Bantam Gold does seem quite speaker sensitive, on my mission 780SEs I found the Mini-T to have more bass. However I've just come back from my in-laws in Spain, the Bantam was their belated xmas pressie, along with a CA topaz CD10, and a pair of Polk audio tsi400s (they were 380 euros for a pair hence the purchase), and they are more sensitive than the missions. We basically looked for anything available in Spain at a reasonable cost.

They have a great room soundwise, but even taking that into consideration the sound was superb, considering it was a bit of a budget system, massive amounts of bass and beautiful detail, which confused the hell out of me... :eyebrows:

Yes, I found the same. When we tried the Bantam on Gary's AE's I had to put the amp into high gain so it would work properly, and I don't think those speakers are a difficult load. Different story on the OB's though. On normal gain I get huge bass and great soundstaging, and a sweet mid and top.

Welder

15-02-2011, 09:17

While I’ve been in the “naughty” corner I’ve had a bit of listening time with the T class mentioned above.

Overall, I am impressed. I’m possibly deluded but I think the two chips TA2020 and the TAA4100 sound different and overall I prefer the sound of the TA2020 both using the valve pre.

There is no doubt these amps are a bargain even in the more expensive guise from Autocostruire. However, there is something not quite right with the sound.
They give a very well defined sound stage, they’re extremely fast compared to say my Exposure, instruments have a nice tone, or lack of it, they have good driver control within their power range and despite my concerns, don’t drive to clipping as quickly as I thought they might and so far, not at all tiring to listen to.

I had similar feelings with the Nuforce kit I tried; fantastic, but, something just not quite right even compared to my fairly modest solid state kit.
I have read that Ali and I believe Garry thought the Bantam Golds had the performance edge over the Sonic T’s. Am I right in believing the Bantams are not in fact T class but a Gainclone hybrid? :scratch:
I think I need to hear these for myself.

Interestingly, both the Autocstruire amps sounded better with a vinyl front end and seem a tad fussy about driver matching.
My overall feeling is at their price range they’re unbeatable if you’re buying new. What I’ve come to decide is that the one thing they seem to lack that’s important to me is what I can only describe as pace, they always sound flat out at any volume. While they don’t have the problem the Exposure does of needing exactly the right power output to sound its best, when the Exposure does hit that band it seems to be able give music something the T Class don’t.
I think this is something most valve amps get right and one of the reasons I bought the Exposure at the time, same valve pace feel without the colour, cant explain it any better than that.
Got say £1500 to spend on amplification and cant or wont mod and T Class (these anyway) might just save you a grand for equal performance. The better solid state and valve amps above this price might just give that something extra the T Class can’t quite manage.

WAD62

15-02-2011, 09:33

Hi John,

I'm pretty sure the Bantam Classic uses a Tripath chip (Genuine Tripath TA2024c), but I believe the Gold is their own implementation, although there's not much info available on their site, I'm sure I spotted a thread on the subject somewhere, this is from their site R.E. the Gold...

"Based on an even newer design, the Bantam Gold has the highest resolution, and lowest distortion of any Bantam Amplfier.
In fact the new output stage completely outperforms any class T implementation we have tried. (and we produce one of the best class T amps on the market today)"

Krisbee

15-02-2011, 11:02

A review of the Bantam Gold has just been posted at TNT Audio -

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/bantam_gold_e.html

The amp is based on a ADAU1592 chip built on what looks to be a custom "Temple Audio" PCB.

Ali Tait

15-02-2011, 11:13

The Gold uses a Texas Instruments chip, the AU something or other, I'll see if I can find it again.

Whoops, looks like I read incorrect info, as above, it's an AD chip.Thanks for the heads up on the review Chris. I'd broadly agree with what is said therein, though the power supply info is incorrect,as according to Temple Audio (coz I asked!) the Gold can be run up to 18v.

John, I can see where you're coming from with what you hear with these amps.Having tried the Gold against the Mini T on Gary's speakers (88-90dB I think, somewhere round there anyway), I had to put the Gold on high gain setting to get a decent and loud enough sound, and that was driven from my WAD Pre2, which has huge drive capability. Can't remember how sensitive your speakers are (90dB?) but I think from what I have heard from various amps of this type, they really need a highish sensitivity speaker to give of their best, and that may be the reason you are hearing what you hear. I am running the Golds on a linear supply at 15.5v (as high as it will provide). I'm using them on OB's of around 95dB, so plenty headroom I think.

I think you should get a listen to a Gold if you can, perhaps better still the monoblocks, which are more powerful still. I fancied these myself, but I'd need four which is a bit pricey for what will just for AV use in the future. They may seem expensive against the competition, but I think people are used to the peanuts prices for Tripath amps from the East, but they are still dirt cheap for the performance on offer. I think you would like the Golds mate.

ikaruga

22-02-2011, 20:29

Without spending a lot of time reading this thread, apologies if I'm going over old ground.

I got quite obsessed with reading about these little amps so went and bought one in my quest to find a small form factor amp. Topping TP21 was what I settled on due to the addition of a headphone socket.

For what it was it was mightily impressive. Really nice sound. I don't claim to be any expert on sound but I know what I like. It punched it's way through d&b, rock, electronic music with great success. Until I went above half way then everything went seriously wrong with lots of distortion creeping in and a real harsh sound. It was coupled with my B&W 601 S3s which may not have been sensitive enough for it but I like music loud, probably a bit too loud and this little amp sadly didn't fill the room enough to my liking.

However in the right situation, small bedroom system or small listening room for moderate volumes, it'd take some beating at the price. I will consider a similar amp in the future for just that reason. I needed an all rounder with a bit of clout behind it which this Topping didn't provide. Also I still preferred my Technics delivery - itself getting quite brash above half way but not actually needing to take it that high all the time. Warmer, maybe a little wooly in the bass frequencies but I like that sort of sound.

Great bargains though. Just don't expect them to fill a normal sized room too well.

Ali Tait

22-02-2011, 21:07

Will fill a big room just fine as long as your speakers are sensitive enough.

ikaruga

22-02-2011, 21:45

As I eluded to in my post ;) Sadly, financially not an option for me.

Ali Tait

22-02-2011, 22:26

Would that be alluded? :)

There's the likes of the Hlly T amp 90, with unsurprisingly 90w/ch, plenty for most normal speakers.

WAD62

23-02-2011, 10:45

Until I went above half way then everything went seriously wrong with lots of distortion creeping in and a real harsh sound. It was coupled with my B&W 601 S3s which may not have been sensitive enough for it but I like music loud, probably a bit too loud and this little amp sadly didn't fill the room enough to my liking.

...stupid question time, and I don't know the topping, or speakers in question.

Is your amp anywhere near your speakers, with the T-Amps I've had, I've found them vulnerable to vibration. OK I did have the amp on the same bookshelf as my speakers...and made an isolation platform out of slate and squash balls which fixed the problem, but the symptoms were similar.

I find the T-Amps are fine to about 80/90%, and then it all goes pair shaped...

Batty

24-02-2011, 01:51

I have a Topping TP20 mk 2 in my PC system, I am using the Digital o/p both optical and Phono into a 1543 NOS DAC kit from china. Between the amp and DAC I have an Oatley Electronics valve buffer amp with adjustable gain up to 3. For a total cost of around $130 aussie I have quite a beautiful sounding setup. I liked it so much I sold the Rotel RA-04 that I was using before. I have still to put the buffer into a box and maybe I may just buy a larger case and put both DAC and buffer in.

Yours
Happy with T amp and valve buffer.

dave2010

26-02-2011, 08:02

... and then it all goes pair shaped...I was going to comment, then I thought better of it.

WAD62

26-02-2011, 09:18

I was going to comment, then I thought better of it.

That would be a strange shape indeed...pear perhaps! ;)

webby

06-03-2011, 11:53

Is 87db too low for these kind of amps?

Stratmangler

06-03-2011, 12:14

Is 87db too low for these kind of amps?

Depends on how smooth the frequency/impedence curve is - if it resembles the Alps then the speaker would give any amplifier a hard time.

Tarzan

06-03-2011, 12:55

Lee, l use a Mini-T with the 2A PSU in a 11f x 11f room, the Speakers are Harbeth Compact 7ES2 and sensitivity is around 84-88db according with who you speak to, and the T drives the Harbs really well- it is quite comfortably the best amplifier l have had at home, full- bloodied, 3D, mooth, dynamic everyday this amplifier amazes me, but the downsides are..... 1 input, no remote control, but the sound:cool: The Bantam l believe is a bit more powerful so you may be ok, can you try before you buy?

Welder

06-03-2011, 13:28

Hi Andy

That’s some recommendation “comfortably the best amplifier I have at home” given the kit in your sig.

Do you use the Tom Evans pre amp with the mini-T?

Tarzan

06-03-2011, 14:20

l must renew my signature! The Tom Evans is a phono stage btw( l sold this and the Helikon recently), but if you only need 1 input and can forgo remote control the Mini-T is a really remarkable sounding amplifier, and it is soooo musical , ultimately l will get a home audition of a Virtue Audio Sensation 901 amp, another T amp but with real power, RC, inputs, battery PSU and choc full of audio goodies and the Mini-T will go in a second system, T amps really have been a bit of an eye opener for me, and the Mini-T costs around £60 ish:):cool:

Welder

06-03-2011, 14:31

I just wondered because I’m trying to get a listen to the Bantam Gold mono’s having has a bit of an experiment with some class D recently and overall liked what I heard a lot ;)

Tarzan

06-03-2011, 14:53

John, happy demoing how powerful are the Bantams?

Welder

06-03-2011, 15:56

40 wpc I believe Andy. Doesn't seem a lot until you consider the efficiency of this type of amp.

Tarzan

06-03-2011, 16:13

That should be ample!:) Do let us know how you get on with them.

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 16:55

Umm, not exactly Class T but class D, i have just purchased a pair of these things (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/300W-IRS2092-IRFI4019H-IRAUDAMP7S-Amplifier-kit-L15D-/190512209785?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item2c5b699f79) as they look to be very interesting indeed :)

More information (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irs2092.pdf) ;)

Some real RMS Watts produced by these things by the look of it :eyebrows:

aquapiranha

14-03-2011, 17:01

There are some real bargains out there, assuming these sound good! Let us know what you think of them, :)

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 17:05

I have every faith in International Rectifier ICs & Mosfets Steve ;) The fact that the IC is specifically designed for class D amplification & the dual mosfet in a single die to form a half bridge should make things even more interesting :eyebrows:

Looks like the standard modulation frequency is 400KHz which is pretty high indeed. If you look at the second link you can check out the performance, it looks good, so i live in hope :cool:

E2A:- Looks like just the kind of thing John needs to power his Volts :lolsign:

Welder

14-03-2011, 17:29

"Looks like just the kind of thing John needs to power his Volts :lolsign:"

What John needs is more money! :doh:
He knows exactly what he needs. ;)

MartinT

14-03-2011, 17:31

Looks like the standard modulation frequency is 400KHz which is pretty high indeed.

Wow, those devices must be fast as the heatsinking doesn't look sufficient otherwise at that switching frequency.

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 18:20

One device but two power mosfets on a single die Martin, looking at the specification (http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfi4019h-117p.pdf) the gate charge is very low indeed for a device with that voltage rating & RDS on ;) It's fast alright :eyebrows:

MartinT

14-03-2011, 19:20

Concur: 6.6ns rise time :eek:

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 19:57

Concur: 6.6ns rise time :eek:
Ah, you must take into account the test generator resistance, that in this case can supply what looks like 4Amps or so charging current to the gate. The IRS2092 can only supply just over 1Amp, but as the circuit is feeding the filter inductor on the output stage i'd actually expect it to be even faster as in no way will full current be drawn instantly due to this.

Also the 6.6ns rise time is with a non inductive resistive load, so full current is drawn instantly which certainly doesn't help things :eyebrows:

So yes, the mosfet is lightning fast.. In fact it might be fast enough to modulate at 1MHz with less than 1% dead time :eek:

John

14-03-2011, 20:02

I have no idea what you 2 are talking about but sounds like you found a bargain capable of very fast dynamics?

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 20:27

I have no idea what you 2 are talking about but sounds like you found a bargain capable of very fast dynamics?
I'll see if i can explain John :)

Class T amplifiers are similar to class D except for one thing. At low output levels the mosfets that do the switching are switched at up to 1.5MHz or 1,500,000 times a second, this improves the sound quality as the carrier frequency is way above the audio frequency being produced. If you like you get many more & more accurate samples per second which are fed into the filter on the output of the amplifier which hopefully smooths things out & you get a nice sound in your speaker (hopefully :eyebrows:). At higher output powers class T amps switch to a lower switching frequency to improve efficiency because there are losses in the mosfet switches (nothing is totally instantaneous).

A class D amp (generally) uses a fixed frequency to switch the mosfets so at lower volume levels they may well not be quite as clean as a class T amp.. Of course all this depends on the switching frequency of the mosfets, if you can switch them very fast then it's quite possible that a class D amp will out perform a T nearer full power but not be quite so good at low volume levels..

These things i bought look interesting, i only saw them today but as soon as i did i went into research mode.. As i have a pretty decent understanding of the subject i came to the conclusion that these were extremely good value for money with the possibility of very good performance indeed ;)

For £37 delivered i'm more than willing to take the chance seeing as i understand how they work :) A little calculation reveals they should be good for 200W RMS into 8 ohm & heading for 400W RMS into a 4 ohm speaker load with a +/- 60V supply :eek: Of if they were bridged 800W RMS 8 ohm :mental:

They'll be getting bigger heatsinks all the same :) The control IC is good for +/- 100V though, so if the correct mosfets were used for switching each amp module could be good for well over 500W RMS 8 ohms as long as certain other components were upgraded, that'd be 2KW RMS bridged into 8 ohms with both amplifiers :oops:

Welder

14-03-2011, 20:36

Keep us posted please Mark and get on with it :ner::lolsign:

John

14-03-2011, 20:44

I'll see if i can explain John :)

Class T amplifiers are similar to class D except for one thing. At low output levels the mosfets that do the switching are switched at up to 1.5MHz or 1,500,000 times a second, this improves the sound quality as the carrier frequency is way above the audio frequency being produced. If you like you get many more & more accurate samples per second which are fed into the filter on the output of the amplifier which hopefully smooths things out & you get a nice sound in your speaker (hopefully :eyebrows:). At higher output powers class T amps switch to a lower switching frequency to improve efficiency because there are losses in the mosfet switches (nothing is totally instantaneous).

A class D amp (generally) uses a fixed frequency to switch the mosfets so at lower volume levels they may well not be quite as clean as a class T amp.. Of course all this depends on the switching frequency of the mosfets, if you can switch them very fast then it's quite possible that a class D amp will out perform a T nearer full power but not be quite so good at low volume levels..

These things i bought look interesting, i only saw them today but as soon as i did i went into research mode.. As i have a pretty decent understanding of the subject i came to the conclusion that these were extremely good value for money with the possibility of very good performance indeed ;)

For £37 delivered i'm more than willing to take the chance seeing as i understand how they work :) A little calculation reveals they should be good for 200W RMS into 8 ohm & heading for 400W RMS into a 4 ohm speaker load with a +/- 60V supply :eek: Of if they were bridged 800W RMS 8 ohm :mental:

They'll be getting bigger heatsinks all the same :) The control IC is good for +/- 100V though, so if the correct mosfets were used for switching each amp module could be good for well over 500W RMS 8 ohms as long as certain other components were upgraded, that'd be 2KW RMS bridged into 8 ohms with both amplifiers :oops:

Cheers Mark I look forward to hearing how they perform I finally might of found a DIY project to try fot myself

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 20:45

They have to get here first John :eyebrows: I find most stuff from Hong Kong takes about a fortnight or so, but i'll keep you up to date as i'm interested in the outcome myself :) Just hope they are sent registered like everything else i have bought recently appears to have been ;)

Jonboy

14-03-2011, 21:00

They look interesting Mark, after my Mini T purchase i have got a hankering for a 2050 chip amp, anybody tried one?

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 21:08

Cheers Mark I look forward to hearing how they perform I finally might of found a DIY project to try fot myself
You need to be able to solder John as it's a kit after all, not sure if the control IC is pre soldered onto the PCB but in all honesty i'd seriously not recommend attempting to solder surface mount stuff unless you know what you are doing & have a steady hand & can work quickly ;)

Done it myself previously so i'm not too worried about the prospect. I'll let you know how it arrives :)

John

14-03-2011, 21:21

well that would rule me out lol

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 21:24

I'll let you know if they are any good John, you could always get someone else to solder the thing together for you for a nominal sum i feel sure ;)

Meanwhile the waiting game begins :whistle:

Welder

14-03-2011, 21:31

Were you planning on full bridge with these Mark?

Jonboy

14-03-2011, 21:33

Meanwhile the waiting game begins :whistle:

my dac kit arrived very quickly, no slow boat from China for me

Welder

14-03-2011, 21:37

John, no not that John, the other one….:lol:
Tbh mate I think you’re doing yourself a disservice.
You could pick up adequate soldering skills for this with a bit of practice and I do mean a bit as long as you’ve got a steady hand. It’s not a complex board. The thing that you need to be careful about is not to overheat.

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 21:39

No, not full bridge, well not to listen to a stereo pair ;) I'm aware of rail pumping due to the output inductor which is a non issue in bridge mode, but i just want to see how they sound. Frankly none of the smaller class T stuff took my fancy as i like to be able to get to fairly realistic levels & 20W or even 40W won't cut the mustard with most speakers.

I might eventually replace the so damn inefficient amplifiers in the P600 regenerator with something similar to these, in fact they might well do the job admirably once modified :eyebrows:

MartinT

14-03-2011, 21:43

I might eventually replace the so damn inefficient amplifiers in the P600 regenerator with something similar to these

Ooh, Class T mains regeneration, now that would be a fine thing :)

Reid Malenfant

21-03-2011, 20:10

Ooh, Class T mains regeneration, now that would be a fine thing :)
:eyebrows: Actually Martin i have the perfect & i mean absolutely perfect IC to do that trick & a good few of them to boot :)

No messing about with level shifting, just straight pulse transformers can be used due to the fixed PWM of 180 degrees, these things shift the phase of the two 180 degree switching mosfets in the bridge to develop the voltage. Normally these would be used in an SMPS with DC output, however if the error amplifier input is fed AC rather than the 2.5V DC from the voltage reference it'll generate an AC output ;)

I have had this in mind for a while tbh, the efficiency of this P600 is pushing me in that direction..

Oh, by the way, note that the IC uses zero voltage switching - it uses stray inductance to make a resonant tank, just like the filter inductors that would be needed to smooth the waveform :cool:

No idea how many of these SG3876 ICs i happen to have, must be more than 10. The SG3876 is the equivalent of the UC1876 you can study here (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/29390/TI/UC1875.html) ;)