XLR Cable shoot out - including the Spotfire IC

[Qwin]

.
I've been using balanced equipment exclusively for some time, I went this route almost by accident, having purchased the Pro-Ject Box RS gear, which favors balanced hook up. I recently upgraded most of my equipment, a bit at a time, staying with balanced, so each piece would work with the rest of my gear, at any given point in the upgrade process. I'm now looking at which reasonably priced interconnect leads will get the most out of this new gear. Up until this point, I've been using Klotz MC5000, which I've been fairly happy with.

I'll start by saying I don't believe in spending massively in this area, my speaker cables are Van Damme 6mm sq HiFi for Bass and Atlas Hyper 2 for mids/Twtr, neither of which could be described as exotic.

A lot has been made recently of Oli's (Bigman80) new Spotfire IC cable, when compared to the likes of Klotz MC5000 and Sommer Carbokab. These comparisons have been made with the cables made up as single ended interconnects, with KLE Harmony “bullet” RCA plugs or similar.
These were all originally designed as balanced microphone/interconnect cables. It will be interesting to compare some of them in this guise, within my balanced set up and see if they rate the same as when used single ended.

Connectors used: Neutrik NC3MXX-B/NC3FXX-B XLR. These plugs have gold flashed pins and meet the AES/EBU digital standard for connectors. They are by no means high end, at less than £5 each, but are well made and meet a high specification, my XLR of choice in all applications.

The price indicator below (in brackets), is approximate for a DIY 1.5m pair, using the Neutrik XLR's. The 1.5m Spotfire pair was purchased ready made from Oli, using the same Neutrik XLR plugs.

The cables up for review are:

Klotz MC5000 (£26)

Mogami 2549 (£28)

Sommer Carbokab 225 (£35)

Spotfire IC (£140)

http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Pics/Z_025_XLR_Shootout.JPG

The object of the exercise, is to compare these three major players at the budget end of balanced cabling and also see if spending a bit more on the Spotfire brings improvements. As always, my choice of equipment and its environment will effect the results, so YMMV. Some have expressed the opinion that the differences between balanced leads may not be as large as for single ended, we will have to see.

The cables were all made into 1.5m length interconnect pairs, using the Neutrik XLR's mentioned above. The cables will be inserted between my Pre Amp (PS Audio Stellar GCD) and Active crossover (DIY Rod Elliott), which feeds 4 channels of Nord NC500 Class D Power Amp, via Van Damme Classic XKE Microphone Cable. The semi-active speakers are modified Yamaha NS1000m, that use 12” Scanspeak bass drivers in place of the stock Yamaha drivers. These give deeper bass from a similar volume sealed box, in room, measure flat to 32Hz, f3 at 29Hz. The system is very detailed with a silent as the grave background, so any differences should be apparent.

All equipment has had 300+ Hours use and all cables will have had 100+ hours use before testing takes place.

Note:
I'd intended doing the comparison in a week or so after the last cable acquired (Spotfire) had 100 hours use, the same as the others. But Darren (DarrenHW) and his brother Luke were visiting me today, picking up an Amplifier. Now even though the spotfire has had only 25 hours use at this point, it seemed too good an opportunity to miss, so we had a mini session to compare the cables. Another more extensive testing will be done at a later date, so this is just a first impression, but we all seemed to agree on the merits of each, which were not night and day differences. Feel free to jump in Darren if you disagree with any of my observations.

A). Klotz MC-5000
Warmer mid range and upper bass than the others, but the least transparent, almost muddy in a direct A-B comparison.

B). Mogami 2549
The most transparent, well defined clean deep Bass, top end maybe too evident on some tracks. Can be stunning with the right material.

C). Sommer Carbokab 225
Not as Transparent as the Mogami, sound stage bit shut in, voices further back in the mix compared with others. Good top end, a touch better than Mogami in this respect.

D). Spotfire IC
Highest level of detail, especially mid range, which has a nice warmth, but not as rich or smeared as the Klotz, almost as transparent as the Mogami, solid Bass, no stand out deficiency across the frequency range. An easy listen.

So on that basis we unanimously rated them in this order:

1). Spotfire :D

2). Mogami (very close second) :)

3). Sommer :(

4). Klotz – The other three were a step up. :doh:

So while not dramatic, the differences between these cables, in a balanced set up, was noticeable. We ran the Mogami/Spotfire again head to head, with Darren and Luke not knowing which was playing and they both preferred the Spotfire. It will be interesting to see if the Spotfire improves further beyond its 25 hours usage, Oli suggested a min 30 hours use.

I'll run some more comparisons with local participants once the Spotfire clocks up 100 hours and see if the results tally. I picked 100 hours as a decent amount of time, to prevent the nay sayers pronouncing one or other cable hadn't run in enough to perform at its best. Please bear in mind, our findings on the day were for balanced use, with my gear, in my room, so your experience could differ.

Looks like its a thumbs up for the Spotfire Oli.
However, at this point, with only a small performance difference between it and the Mogami, it's debatable whether the significant extra cost can be justified.
I will wait for the 100 hour test before calling that one. :D (Local volunteers please).

[karma67]

your findings seem to mirror mine,ive gone from klotz to sommer and then tried the spotfire,on one test track the singers voice moved more forward towards me when using the spotfire.

[Qwin]

your findings seem to mirror mine,ive gone from klotz to sommer and then tried the spotfire,on one test track the singers voice moved more forward towards me when using the spotfire.

Is that balanced use Jamie?

[karma67]

the sommer had the screen connected at one end if thats what you mean??
edit ,no its not :lol:

[Qwin]

You had me going there :)

It would seem the differences and basic sound signature of the cables are similar, regardless of single ended/balanced use.

They were all better than my present Klotz cable, the Spotfire was a nose ahead, but this is improving all the time. Even with an extra few hours use this afternoon it has nudged further ahead.

[Bigman80]

Great write up Ken and obviously I'm happy to see the SPOTFIRE come out on top.

One thing to keep in mind is the use of XLRs are not something I have experimented with or even heard as a completed cable. Burn in time is an estimate from my trials with the KLE plugs.

The SPOTFIRE usually have Silver plated copper KLE RCA plugs and I have to admit, with ANY other RCA plugs, the synergy that exists with the cable and KLE is not as good with other RCAs. One might argue thats where the magic is. KLE recommend 100 hours!!!

Mogami is a very good cable and one I've experimented with extensively. Yes cost is important but you made the Mogami yourself so there's a bit of a difference there too.

I'll look forward to your review when everything has 100hrs on.

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[sq225917]

Ken how do you have the chassis sockets terminated inside your gear? Does pin1 go directly to chassis as per the aes guidance?

[Bigman80]

Ken how do you have the chassis sockets terminated inside your gear? Does pin1 go directly to chassis as per the aes guidance?Pin 1 - Shield on the plug

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[Qwin]

Ken how do you have the chassis sockets terminated inside your gear? Does pin1 go directly to chassis as per the aes guidance?

Yes, I use the tab provided on the back of the Neutrik sockets and use a short (thick) single copper strand to connect to pin 1.

I also added a thick strap connection between the (separate) rear panel and the base of my case, which has the star ground point fitted, to guarantee good continuity between sockets and the star ground.
I strictly followed AES guide lines. One single connection from audio ground to star ground. One from PSU to star ground and one safety earth connection to star. all cable shields connect to star through panel socket/chassis. This is all followed in my DIY active crossover, which is Rod Elliots design/PCB's. I deviated slightly from Rods wiring layout, as he had a cover all applications approach for each individual board. He hadn't considered all 4 being used together. I followed AES best practice and the active x-overs insertion adds nothing to the inky black silence of the PS Audio Pre and Nord NC500 class D Power Amps.

Rane have published some good (simple) advisory papers and I believe they were involved in establishing the AES standard.

Easy to find using Google, but I can send you those if you like?

[Qwin]

Pin 1 - Shield on the plug

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He's talking about internal connection, via Pin 1 of the shield within the case Oli not the leads.
You shouldn't connect pin 1 to the connector body of the lead, just on the chassis socket.

[Bigman80]

He's talking about internal connection, via Pin 1 of the shield within the case Oli not the leads.
You shouldn't connect pin 1 to the connector body of the lead, just on the chassis socket.Apologies, I'm at a wedding [emoji1787][emoji1787]

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[Macca]

Interesting test, more so because there was a bit of a blind element to it.

I wouldn't expect the balanced/non balanced thing to make any difference, why would it?

For me I don't place any importance on the 'hearing things I never heard' business, you've just made a change so of course your listening more intently. I go on the overall 'tone' of the sound. No doubt there are differences between cables, even if mostly it's about the same level of change as moving your head around a bit. I'm using some Spotfire cables right now and they do seem to have a distinct 'signature'. 'Warm', as you said Ken. But it's slight.

[Bigman80]

Interesting test, more so because there was a bit of a blind element to it.

I wouldn't expect the balanced/non balanced thing to make any difference, why would it?

For me I don't place any importance on the 'hearing things I never heard' business, you've just made a change so of course your listening more intently. I go on the overall 'tone' of the sound. No doubt there are differences between cables, even if mostly it's about the same level of change as moving your head around a bit. I'm using some Spotfire cables right now and they do seem to have a distinct 'signature'. 'Warm', as you said Ken. But it's slight.I know you're a sceptic mate but give them the required hours.

30hrs minimum/50hrs or above is ideal

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[Macca]

I know you're a sceptic mate but give them the required hours.



No. After 29 hours I'm going to take them upstairs to the interconnect graveyard* where so many interconnects have gone before (and still reside) and buy something else. So there.


* It's actually a Kwik-Save carrier bag.

[brian2957]

Hi Ken , good write up . Do you have a link to where I can buy the Mogami cable , wouldn'y mind trying it .

[Qwin]

Hi Ken , good write up . Do you have a link to where I can buy the Mogami cable , wouldn'y mind trying it .

Find it here Brian: http://www.giraffeaudio.com/mogami-neglex-type-22awg-2549.html

[Bigman80]

[emoji38][emoji38] outrageous!!
No. After 29 hours I'm going to take them upstairs to the interconnect graveyard* where so many interconnects have gone before (and still reside) and buy something else. So there.


* It's actually a Kwik-Save carrier bag.

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[brian2957]

Find it here Brian: http://www.giraffeaudio.com/mogami-neglex-type-22awg-2549.html

Thanks Ken , you're a gent .

[Qwin]

I wouldn't expect the balanced/non balanced thing to make any difference, why would it?


Because with a balanced v single ended cable connection, the cables are doing different things electrically. Eg. the single ended return is connected directly to the audio ground plane, the balanced isn't. The balanced is carrying an inverted + non inverted signals which are independent of the audio ground plane. What difference this makes to the sound, if any, I couldn't say, but the applications are different, so it would be reasonable to assume a difference could exist, as we are not comparing Apples with Apples. So I remain open to the possibility that they MIGHT sound different, but have no evidence that would back that up.

Its a bit like connecting the screen on these two core cable, single ended applications. One end/both ends/not at all, people swear it makes an audible difference, but why should it?

So I don't have all the answers Martin, but I can see the logic in how balanced/single ended hook up might sound different, even with the same cable type.

[karma67]

Thanks Ken , you're a gent .

yep cheers for the link,i might have to try it,rumour is the grossly expensive linn t-cable is this stuff

[Qwin]

I'd almost given up trying to find a UK supplier of Mogami cut bulk cable and came across this company by accident.
Glad I could share.

[Qwin]

Just a note on Sommer cables.

Carbokab is not top of the range.
A 1m ready made XLR pair of Carbokab 225 costs around 85 Euro from Sommer.

Their hi end cable is Epilogue and a 1m ready made XLR pair costs 166 Euro.

These are the prices that are comparable with Oli's ready made cable, and make his look more of a reasonable price.
It is, of course, much cheaper making your own cables.

[sq225917]

Cheers Ken, that's the detail I was looking for, just to make sure any difference wasn't due to a peculiarity of your chassis. I do exactly the same. Putzeys has a good paper on it called ' the pin 1 problem' for anyine whos interested in a discussiin on it.

Oli, stick me down for a demo if there's a list.

[Bigman80]

Cheers Ken, that's the detail I was looking for, just to make sure any difference wasn't due to a peculiarity of your chassis. I do exactly the same. Putzeys has a good paper on it called ' the pin 1 problem' for anyine whos interested in a discussiin on it.

Oli, stick me down for a demo if there's a list.I'll drop you a PM mate.

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[Qwin]

yep cheers for the link,i might have to try it,rumour is the grossly expensive linn t-cable is this stuff

Yeh, I'd heard it might be Mogami, I don't know which one though, they make loads of different cables.

[Qwin]

Well.

I think you need to re think the Spotfire burn in estimation Oli.

In my balanced implementation with the Neutrick connectors the sound got very edgy and distorted at about 60 hours it was sounding poor on female vocals in particular, Sade, Stacey Kent plus harmonica etc had a real resonant sound I would say centered around 6/7kHz and was still that way at 80 ish hours when I went to bed last night. It wasn't sibilant with "S" or "Z" sounds, it was more general. I left it playing over night and it has smoothed out when listening to the same tracks this morning and no it is not a Phsycho effect, very noticeably poor last night. It spoilt what was otherwise a very good presentation. The cable has had continuous play since Saturday and has gone through many subtle changes during that period. I don't know how to account for it, I can't see the mains supply causing it and I didn't adjusted anything, so put it down to the cable/s.

Anyway, what ever caused it, it's a lot smoother at the top now, phew!

I think 100hrs use is a better figure before critical listening , I would have thrown it in the bin, based on last nights performance. It completely spoilt my enjoyment of the vocals.

So were getting close to doing a better comparison now but wont do it till I am getting consistent results :)

[Bigman80]

Hi Ken,

Wow, that's very surprising!

At present there are multiple pairs of these cables in use and not one owner has reported anything like this so something is different.

The difference being the cables have RCA plugs usually.

I can't say why or what you're experiencing because I've never heard the SPOTFIRE used in a balanced cable. Burn in time was suggested due to the standard configuration with RCA so it's possible that it will be different with the XLR plugs but I couldn't say for sure. At least now we have some insight with the cable in balanced construction so thanks for the feedback!!



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[Macca]

We could consider the possibility that this was another issue entirely unrelated to the cable?

I've only got 3 hours on mine, so that means another 57 before it goes all weird and then another 40 before it's burnt in and working as it should? It all seems highly unlikely I have to say.

[Bigman80]

We could consider the possibility that this was another issue entirely unrelated to the cable?

I've only got 3 hours on mine, so that means another 57 before it goes all weird and then another 40 before it's burnt in and working as it should? It all seems highly unlikely I have to say.Macca, I have never experienced anything like what's been fed back in this thread. I've just had a quick look and there's at least 10 pairs of these in use with people i know outside of the forum as well as on, and had they had this experience or similar, I'd have been told. Similarly, I haven't ever tried a balanced pair and due to that.

They do take a bit of time to settle down but everyone reported around 30-50hrs was sufficient so whether the XLR plugs or something else is in play, I couldn't say.

Whatever is going on, I'm just happy that Ken is back to enjoying the music.


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[Macca]

Macca, I have never experienced anything like what's been fed back in this thread. I've just had a quick look and there's at least 10 pairs of these in use with people i know outside of the forum as well as on, and had they had this experience or similar, I'd have been told. Similarly, I haven't ever tried a balanced pair and due to that.

They do take a bit of time to settle down but everyone reported around 30-50hrs was sufficient so whether the XLR plugs or something else is in play, I couldn't say.



Well never having ever experienced 'burn in ' effect the sound of anything it doesn't really matter to me. We can all happily tell a good sound from a bad one so if it sounds bad all of a sudden I've no doubt that something is going on but some sort of burn in effect would be way down on my list of probable causes. in fact it wouldn't be on my list at all.

And I can't believe anyone can judge that the burn in ended at around 50 hours. I mean really, what are we basing this on? Do people really think that their perception is that keen? The biggest floating variable in the equation is us.

[Bigman80]

Well never having ever experienced 'burn in ' effect the sound of anything it doesn't really matter to me. We can all happily tell a good sound from a bad one so if it sounds bad all of a sudden I've no doubt that something is going on but some sort of burn in effect would be way down on my list of probable causes. in fact it wouldn't be on my list at all.

And I can't believe anyone can judge that the burn in ended at around 50 hours. I mean really, what are we basing this on? Do people really think that their perception is that keen? The biggest floating variable in the equation is us.Well, I've heard the cables change so I do believe in burn in but after 50hrs I never noticed any further variation. Sure, we as humans are far more variable with mood affecting perception so maybe that's a valid point. All I can say with any certainty is that no one has said what Ken has. Doesn't make him wrong though.

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[Firebottle]

It's 'cause the signal is going both ways so it is double the time. :uhho:

I'll get my coat .......

[Bigman80]

It's 'cause the signal is going both ways so it is double the time. :uhho:

I'll get my coat .......[emoji23]

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[walpurgis]

I have to say, I don't like references to 'cable burn-in', it's an unproven phenomenon. The only 'proof' is anecdotal and nowhere backed up by reputable research.

[karma67]

yep it does seem strange doesn't it,yet ive had a few moments with cable were ive thought the sound had changed for the better,for me it doesn't happen whilst im listening,it always seems to happen at the start of a fresh listening session.perhaps thats a big clue? ie its my ears not the burn in??

[Bigman80]

All I can say is I heard it change at about 30hrs then stabilise after 50hrs. What providing a burn time does, is ensure the owner/listener doesn't critically judge until the cable has settled down.

It's could also be a load of shite in some peoples opinion but I heard it. That's all I can say!

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[Macca]

Well this is a subjectivist site and in subjectivist audio the idea that everything needs to burn in before it sounds at its best is taken for granted, it's never even called into question. It's a bit weird but there you are.

[Bigman80]

Well this is a subjectivist site and in subjectivist audio the idea that everything needs to burn in before it sounds at its best is taken for granted, it's never even called into question. It's a bit weird but there you are.I see your point mate and don't disagree that something unquestioned is something unsubstantiated. Trouble is, how do you prove burn in?

I'm off the search Google lol

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[Barry]

Well.

I think you need to re think the Spotfire burn in estimation Oli.

In my balanced implementation with the Neutrick connectors the sound got very edgy and distorted at about 60 hours it was sounding poor on female vocals in particular, Sade, Stacey Kent plus harmonica etc had a real resonant sound I would say centered around 6/7kHz and was still that way at 80 ish hours when I went to bed last night. It wasn't sibilant with "S" or "Z" sounds, it was more general. I left it playing over night and it has smoothed out when listening to the same tracks this morning and no it is not a Phsycho effect, very noticeably poor last night. It spoilt what was otherwise a very good presentation. The cable has had continuous play since Saturday and has gone through many subtle changes during that period. I don't know how to account for it, I can't see the mains supply causing it and I didn't adjusted anything, so put it down to the cable/s.

Anyway, what ever caused it, it's a lot smoother at the top now, phew!

I think 100hrs use is a better figure before critical listening , I would have thrown it in the bin, based on last nights performance. It completely spoilt my enjoyment of the vocals.

So were getting close to doing a better comparison now but wont do it till I am getting consistent results :)

I'm a bit confused here - did the cable get noticeably worse as it 'burnt in', reaching a low point at about 60hrs of use, then started to improve after that?

[struth]

I'm maybe not that critical a listener, but I haven't really heard burn in for real so far with a cable. Ive heard differences through time but have swapped back to original cable and found a similar pattern, and put it down to me getting used to the sound change.(I could be wrong tho)

[Macca]

I see your point mate and don't disagree that something unquestioned is something unsubstantiated. Trouble is, how do you prove burn in?



Blind test with a set of brand new cables and a set that has 100 hours on them. If you can still consistently identify a difference then you have something worthy of further investigation (or you can at least be personally satisfied that there is a real effect).

[Bigman80]

Blind test with a set of brand new cables and a set that has 100 hours on them. If you can still consistently identify a difference then you have something worthy of further investigation (or you can at least be personally satisfied that there is a real effect).Challenge accepted. You up for a blind test? Do it at mine and you can hear the Krell.

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[Yomanze]

To be honest, until people actually do some proper blind testing, it's all just opinion & 'feelings' rather than reliably identifying cable differences. I don't think it is a coincidence that LFD, one of the most cable and wire fanatic companies out there, do not make XLR cables anymore, because they are a 'well sorted' connection. Being able to rank a series of them from best to worst, well, it smacks of expectation bias to me. End of the day, if the differences are so clear, then blind testing isn't going to make these differences disappear.

[sq225917]

Cable burn-in is hokum, there's absolutely no change whatsoever in electrical parameters with use. However the quality of your hi-fi fluctuates with the time of day, and with your mood, so there are many good reasons why our perception of sound quality changes and a new set of cables is an easy place to hang any system fluctuations. it's just human nature to want to be able to pin that tail on the donkey in this way as it helps us understand our world, we prefer categorisation to the unknown. That's how religions started when we didn't jack shit about how and why things happen, weather, the seasons, any of it. It's a comfortable way of explaining the unknown.

I can see perfectly valid reasons why the quality of shielding and impedance of earthing between components could have an effect on sound quality though.

[Yomanze]

I can see perfectly valid reasons why the quality of shielding and impedance of earthing between components could have an effect on sound quality though.

Two areas where there are far more variances in RCA cables. Standard pro-audio XLRs like Belden & Canare, with the ubiquitous Neutrik XLRs, have no issues with either shielding or impedance.

There is the 'Pin 1' problem as discussed earlier of course, here's a good article from Rane: https://www.rane.com/note165.html

[Macca]

Challenge accepted. You up for a blind test? Do it at mine and you can hear the Krell.

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Yes we can do that providing you don't live out in the back of beyond. Send us a PM.

[Firebottle]

He's in Wolverhampton, some might think that the back of beyond :lol:

[Bigman80]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] an outrageous statement
He's in Wolverhampton, some might think that the back of beyond [emoji38]

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[walpurgis]

He's in Wolverhampton, some might think that the back of beyond :lol:

I've heard of that place. I believe they're still doing missionary work out there. ;)

[wee tee cee]

great write up Ken....thanks for that.

my experience regards cables is that they do subtly change over time

my spotfire resides in my av set up....it settled down after 100hrs or so.

had many cable bake offs over the years-not everyone prefers the same sonic signature but usually we all hear and describe the individual differences quite consistently.

at the end of the day its good fun getting together for a session and enjoying our shared passion for audio/music

[sq225917]

Also worth a read.


https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/AN_Legacy_pin_1_problems.pdf

[Bigman80]

I've heard of that place. I believe they're still doing missionary work out there. ;)[emoji23][emoji23]

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[Macca]

I've heard of that place. I believe they're still doing missionary work out there. ;)

I believe they're still using the missionary position.

[Bigman80]

I believe they're still using the missionary position.There are others? [emoji848]

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[Qwin]

I'm a bit confused here - did the cable get noticeably worse as it 'burnt in', reaching a low point at about 60hrs of use, then started to improve after that?

It started poor got better then yes, it did get worse, then improved again. The whole set up has been running 24/7 for over three weeks, running in various bits of kit and I hadn't disturbed anything for at least three days when the last change occurred, only the cables had been swapped at the beginning of that period, all the boxes had over 300 hours virtually constant running by then.

I don't experience random changes in my system once everything has truly settled, I hear a consistent sound.

I get the same effect when putting hours on new caps in crossovers and they quite often sound at their best about 2/3rd through the process, then go slightly off the mark by smoothing out too much and loosing some of the dynamics heard earlier.

I don't sit listening all day, I tend to have a serious listen to progress each evening by cuing up the same tracks I know inside out. Any distortion in certain vocal tracks stands out immediately and it was VERY obvious, like fingers down a black board for me. Consistent across different recordings as well. I'm not certain what caused it but it crept in and was there for the last hours of the 3rd evening, but had almost completely gone by the 4th morning. This was confirmed when I listened properly in the evening.

I run 24hour radio station (Classic FM) from my freesat box using toslink into the PS Audio DAC/Pre to clock up the hours, then switch to Qobuz streamed files (USB from laptop) for my evaluation periods.

The Sommer Carbokab took a good while (days) to sound any good at all, the Mogami didn't take any where near as long (10hours) to get to a reasonable level, but it didn't smooth out at the top for a further 24hrs. So they were not all the same in the way they settled. The Spotfire continues to run without the distortion returning. I did a quick swap a couple of hours ago and put some Quad bookshelf speakers on the business end. These have a ribbon tweeter and are smooth as silk at the top, so any harshness will be even easier to spot, but I can't see it returning now, over 130hours and to be honest I've stopped counting. The little quads are sounding great. :)

[Qwin]

Also worth a read.


https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/AN_Legacy_pin_1_problems.pdf

Yes I had seen that, I took issue with Hypex after reading it and the Rane articles, which are all just confirming AES recommendations. The reason was one of Hypex's own diagrams in a PDF on how to wire their amps correctly, went against their own preaching. They showed the cable shield attached to the audio ground pin on their Amp modules PCB. They never got back to me.

[Bigman80]

It started poor got better then yes, it did get worse, then improved again. The whole set up has been running 24/7 for over three weeks, running in various bits of kit and I hadn't disturbed anything for at least three days when the last change occurred, only the cables had been swapped at the beginning of that period, all the boxes had over 300 hours virtually constant running by then.

I don't experience random changes in my system once everything has truly settled, I hear a consistent sound.

I get the same effect when putting hours on new caps in crossovers and they quite often sound at their best about 2/3rd through the process, then go slightly off the mark by smoothing out too much and loosing some of the dynamics heard earlier.

I don't sit listening all day, I tend to have a serious listen to progress each evening by cuing up the same tracks I know inside out. Any distortion in certain vocal tracks stands out immediately and it was VERY obvious, like fingers down a black board for me. Consistent across different recordings as well. I'm not certain what caused it but it crept in and was there for the last hours of the 3rd evening, but had almost completely gone by the 4th morning. This was confirmed when I listened properly in the evening.

I run 24hour radio station (Classic FM) from my freesat box using toslink into the PS Audio DAC/Pre to clock up the hours, then switch to Qobuz streamed files (USB from laptop) for my evaluation periods.

The Sommer Carbokab took a good while (days) to sound any good at all, the Mogami didn't take any where near as long (10hours) to get to a reasonable level, but it didn't smooth out at the top for a further 24hrs. So they were not all the same in the way they settled. The Spotfire continues to run without the distortion returning. I did a quick swap a couple of hours ago and put some Quad bookshelf speakers on the business end. These have a ribbon tweeter and are smooth as silk at the top, so any harshness will be even easier to spot, but I can't see it returning now, over 130hours and to be honest I've stopped counting. The little quads are sounding great. :)Fair play Ken, can't argue with your approach to burn in. It may be a myth to some or a fact of life for others but whatever your flavour of cable, it's been educational about but. In times especially as Tony suggested the same.

I've now ammended my recommendation on this to 100hrs.

Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk

[Qwin]

Yeh, I just like to put plenty of hours on a new part, be it cable, amp, or speaker, then you can discount any burn in issues, real or imagined, when you run comparative tests.

The Yammy NS1000m don't have the best tweeter ever made, it's response is ragged at the lower end, hence the mid is crossed fairly high, to try and help it out. Maybe they are more susceptible to even slight distortion in this area and highlight it more than other speakers? Just a thought.

Everything is ready now, I just need to set a date for part two of the test.
I spoke to Gordon (Halfwaytree) he's up for it and wants to do the comparison blind, he's a non believer for the most part, so me being (Increasingly) a believer, it will be an interesting exercise. Could really do with a third?

[Bigman80]

Yeh, I just like to put plenty of hours on a new part, be it cable, amp, or speaker, then you can discount any burn in issues, real or imagined, when you run comparative tests.

The Yammy NS1000m don't have the best tweeter ever made, it's response is ragged at the lower end, hence the mid is crossed fairly high, to try and help it out. Maybe they are more susceptible to even slight distortion in this area and highlight it more than other speakers? Just a thought.

Everything is ready now, I just need to set a date for part two of the test.
I spoke to Gordon (Halfwaytree) he's up for it and wants to do the comparison blind, he's a non believer for the most part, so me being (Increasingly) a believer, it will be an interesting exercise. Could really do with a third?Fair enough mate. It's a solid approach and to be honest, not many folks have the patience for burn in before they judge. Luckily everything I buy is well used [emoji23][emoji23]



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[Non-Smoking Man]

My route into a fully balanced domestic system was prompted by the (hum) problems I sometimes encountered with a 5 way active horn system using a MIX of balanced and unbalanced equipment.

It started with winning an Ayre balanced phono stage on the Exchanges and sourcing the matching pre (Ayre Evolution) from a Wammer (batterredhaggis).

I also have now some valve amps converted to balanced operation (reversable) and a pair of Monarchy Audio SE100 monoblocks (Bigman will be innterested to know, I take it) which can be run either way.

Currently Im using Chord Chameleon VEE 3 phono to pre and Chord Cobra pre to amps - all XLR plugs.
Im keen to be included in the discussion and provide additional testing/comparisons.
Jack NSM

[Qwin]

Jack - Yes I think all single ended or all balanced and there are few issues, it's when you have a mixture of both it gets tricky.

Due to the different hook up methods, regarding the audio ground plane inside the equipment, it is very easy to create a ground loop when using a mix of SE/Bal connections.

Great that you want to input on this subject. Just note the leads I'm using are not loaners, I had to purchase them all including the Spotfire. Oli had never tried the Spotfire in a balanced configuration till I asked him to build a pair, so he's as keen to see the final analyses as much as any of us.

[Bigman80]

My route into a fully balanced domestic system was prompted by the (hum) problems I sometimes encountered with a 5 way active horn system using a MIX of balanced and unbalanced equipment.

It started with winning an Ayre balanced phono stage on the Exchanges and sourcing the matching pre (Ayre Evolution) from a Wammer (batterredhaggis).

I also have now some valve amps converted to balanced operation (reversable) and a pair of Monarchy Audio SE100 monoblocks (Bigman will be innterested to know, I take it) which can be run either way.

Currently Im using Chord Chameleon VEE 3 phono to pre and Chord Cobra pre to amps - all XLR plugs.
Im keen to be included in the discussion and provide additional testing/comparisons.
Jack NSMI'm very intereste mate, a big fan of Monarchy. Also interested from a cable perspective. It would be great to get your cables to Ken and do a comparison neither the SPOTFIRE. Certainly worth it for me anyway, regardless of result.



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[Bigman80]

Jack - Yes I think all single ended or all balanced and there are few issues, it's when you have a mixture of both it gets tricky.

Due to the different hook up methods, regarding the audio ground plane inside the equipment, it is very easy to create a ground loop when using a mix of SE/Bal connections.

Great that you want to input on this subject. Just note the leads I'm using are not loaners, I had to purchase them all including the Spotfire. Oli had never tried the Spotfire in a balanced configuration till I asked him to build a pair, so he's as keen to see the final analyses as much as any of us.If I had realised there was an interest in the SPOTFIRE XLR, I'd have made a loaner pair mate. I fell in to the trap of "cables don't sound different when balanced because the connection is so good" which is obviously not the case based on your assesment.

Fortunately, you spent wisely [emoji6]

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[Non-Smoking Man]

Would it be possible to run up a pair of XLRs Oliver (and send them to me for a trial)? (On the 'other forum' I engage in a regular South Coast bake Off - next one Nov 15; plan to have a goodly part of my system there and there will be an audience...) I will ensure they are properly run in and get a fair test etc.,,
Jack NSM

[Bigman80]

Would it be possible to run up a pair of XLRs Oliver (and send them to me for a trial)? (On the 'other forum' I engage in a regular South Coast bake Off - next one Nov 15; plan to have a goodly part of my system there and there will be an audience...) I will ensure they are properly run in and get a fair test etc.,,
Jack NSMHi Jack,

I'll PM you.

Oliver.

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[Qwin]

100+ Hour test

Myself and Gordon (Halfwaytree) had the cable session to-day.

Gordon listened without knowledge of which variant was installed. I lost track of which was which, apart from the Spotfire (D), which has a braided jacket and stood out from the rest. I marked the XLR connectors with stickers A/B/C/D and tested all the cables.

The first track played, was the Tittle track from Sade's “Soldiers of Love” Album. The order of play was D/A/B/C and only the first third of the track played each time, to keep the memory period short.

This track is rich, even thick, with a prominent regular drum beat overlaid and Sade's vocal intertwined.
Gordon stated there was not enough difference for him to pick one cable as better than another and to be honest, I felt more or less the same way.

We moved on to a female vocal with acoustic Guitar and
“Pilgrim” from the Wild Honey Album by Alexandra Alden. This track is very well recorded and with little backing there is no where to hide, the vocal is clean and has you hanging on every breath, with some nice finger picking acoustic guitar to help it along.

I played the cables random so Gordon didn't know which was in use, but the actual order for this track was C/A/B/D.

Again Gordon was not able to distinguish one from another.
I was more certain on this track and “B” stood out to me as the most transparent with a little harshness on the High's of the vocal. “D” was almost as Transparent but not as edgy with the vocal. “A” was the warmest sounding but least transparent. “C” didn't have any major flaws but didn't stand out either.

The cables were:
A = Klotz MC5000
B= Mogami 2549
C= Sommer Carbokab
D= Spotfire

The differences between these cables for balanced use, are small. Gordon could not distinguish one from another. My thoughts overall were similar to my previous experience.

I had also listened for longer periods, over the previous few days. I tended to find problems with one or more tracks, be it lack of transparency, not punchy enough, or edgy top end, so moved on to the next cable. After much back and forth, I built up an opinion as to which best suited my system and let me enjoy the music most.

Across a wide selection of artists and music types, the Spotfire gave the fewest problems and was the most versatile, never really tripping up. The Mogami was the most transparent and could sound terrific on some tracks, but was too edgy at the top on other material and was not an easy listen when this happened. The Klotz was good on simple acoustic tracks, but with a complex busy track from Snarky Puppy, could sound over lush and slightly veiled, but only when compared back to back with one of the others.
The Carbokab didn't have any major vices, but it didn't excite me either, there wasn't one area where you could say it excelled over the rest, a bit Grey in that respect. I swapped back and forth between this and the Spotfire several times. With no obvious failing, I couldn't put my finger on what I didn't like about it, maybe a bit flatter dynamically, in the end I just preferred the Spotfire.(1)

So the Spotfire got the best out of my balanced system, but it is a subtle difference, only noticeable over prolonged listening sessions with varied material and is best categorised by what it doesn't do badly, compared to the others tested.

[Bigman80]

100+ Hour test

Myself and Gordon (Halfwaytree) had the cable session to-day.

Gordon listened without knowledge of which variant was installed. I lost track of which was which, apart from the Spotfire (D), which has a braided jacket and stood out from the rest. I marked the XLR connectors with stickers A/B/C/D and tested all the cables.

The first track played, was the Tittle track from Sade's “Soldiers of Love” Album. The order of play was D/A/B/C and only the first third of the track played each time, to keep the memory period short.

This track is rich, even thick, with a prominent regular drum beat overlaid and Sade's vocal intertwined.
Gordon stated there was not enough difference for him to pick one cable as better than another and to be honest, I felt more or less the same way.

We moved on to a female vocal with acoustic Guitar and
“Pilgrim” from the Wild Honey Album by Alexandra Alden. This track is very well recorded and with little backing there is no where to hide, the vocal is clean and has you hanging on every breath, with some nice finger picking acoustic guitar to help it along.

I played the cables random so Gordon didn't know which was in use, but the actual order for this track was C/A/B/D.

Again Gordon was not able to distinguish one from another.
I was more certain on this track and “B” stood out to me as the most transparent with a little harshness on the High's of the vocal. “D” was almost as Transparent but not as edgy with the vocal. “A” was the warmest sounding but least transparent. “C” didn't have any major flaws but didn't stand out either.

The cables were:
A = Klotz MC5000
B= Mogami 2549
C= Sommer Carbokab
D= Spotfire

The differences between these cables for balanced use, are small. Gordon could not distinguish one from another. My thoughts overall were similar to my previous experience.

I had also listened for longer periods, over the previous few days. I tended to find problems with one or more tracks, be it lack of transparency, not punchy enough, or edgy top end, so moved on to the next cable. After much back and forth, I built up an opinion as to which best suited my system and let me enjoy the music most.

Across a wide selection of artists and music types, the Spotfire gave the fewest problems and was the most versatile, never really tripping up. The Mogami was the most transparent and could sound terrific on some tracks, but was too edgy at the top on other material and was not an easy listen when this happened. The Klotz was good on simple acoustic tracks, but with a complex busy track from Snarky Puppy, could sound over lush and slightly veiled, but only when compared back to back with one of the others.
The Carbokab didn't have any major vices, but it didn't excite me either, there wasn't one area where you could say it excelled over the rest, a bit Grey in that respect. I swapped back and forth between this and the Spotfire several times. With no obvious failing, I couldn't put my finger on what I didn't like about it, maybe a bit flatter dynamically, in the end I just preferred the Carbokab.

So the Spotfire got the best out of my balanced system, but it is a subtle difference, only noticeable over prolonged listening sessions with varied material and is best categorised by what it doesn't do badly, compared to the others tested.Hi Ken,

Again, it's an uncharted territory for me where balanced cables are concerned. I'm glad you've done the test and I'm happy with the results as while the difference you hear maybe subtle, the same order is how I'd rate them here but with it being a little more obvious. That's in blind tests too. It does also prove to me that the 'magic' is in the combination of KLE plug and cable.

Oliver.

[Macca]

Interesting that you both struggled to identify differences blind. I found the same thing. Not saying that there are not differences but it shows how we exaggerate the differences when we know which one we are listening to.

[Qwin]

Just read back what I wrote, towards the end when comparing the Carbokab and the Spotfire, it was the Spotfire I preferred not the Carbokab. I had a brain fart when writing the piece and typed the wrong name. Doe! You get the gist from the piece though.

Yes the differences seem larger when you know what your listening to, extended listening does eventually identify which works best though.:)

[Bigman80]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] edit the post?
Just read back what I wrote, towards the end when comparing the Carbokab and the Spotfire, it was the Spotfire I preferred not the Carbokab. I had a brain fart when writing the piece and typed the wrong name. Doe! You get the gist from the piece though.

Yes the differences seem larger when you know what your listening to, extended listening does eventually identify which works best though.:)

[Qwin]

Second brain fart of the evening, thought the edit time had past, when it hadn't.
Corrected the mistake. :D

[Bigman80]

Second brain fart of the evening, thought the edit time had past, when it hadn't.
Corrected the mistake. :D[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] had a few scoops, Ken?

[Yomanze]

Bravo for doing a real test and thanks for sharing. :)

[karma67]

ive just made a pair of interconnects using Mogami 2549,i like it straight out the gate,for £3.00 a meter its a no brainer!

[Gazjam]

Excellent write up Ken, thanks for putting in the effort.

Timely too, as I'm looking for an XLR balanced interconnect to hook up my Dac to the new Preamp when it gets here.
Being balanced some say just get a Pro cable as they all sound the same, informative to know that there are noticeable differences between them.

Food for thought, thanks.

[Mr.Ian]

Find it here Brian: http://www.giraffeaudio.com/mogami-neglex-type-22awg-2549.html

just ordered some Mogami from Giraffe Audio brilliant service, great coms and superfast delivery

[Mr.Ian]

just ordered some Mogami from Giraffe Audio brilliant service, great coms and superfast delivery

Just ordered some more and guess what - same great service. Its rare to find these days

[StingRay]

Just considering buying some phono rca cables, Mogami 2549 is looking favourite at the moment. Just wondering if anyone here has compared these cables to Mark Grant HDX1?

[Blueflash]

I have tried out quite a few balanced cables out over time which included Klotz 5000, Belden 8760, Mogami 2549, Van Damme XKE Tour Grade quad and two core.
They were all fine cables with each having their own individual sound, some a bit more sparkly than others (XKE tour grades) and some a bit softer sounding (Klotz and Mogami), but I took the plunge and tried the Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE 1 pair install cable, black at £0.61 per M.
That was a big surprise for me as it was the best cable for me out of all the above. It just sounded neutral, no added sparkle, no warmer sounding, it was just transparent.
I also found that the cables having 100% foil shielding were the most transparent. In order of preference to me was the Van Damme XKE instal followed by the Belden 8760.
I also use the Neutrik XX plugs but went for the silver plated version.
So don't be afraid of the cheapness of the Van Damme instal cable, I would make some up and see what you think of them.

I didn't find burn in taking place with the cables, but I have noticed it on the Dacs that I have built. There was the usual OK, but fairly flat sound to start with, followed by the "That`s much better regarding width and depth" then taking a retrograde step that made me think, "What the heck is going on now?" followed by a recovery of the sound but with added depth, width and resolution.
I thought it was my brain playing tricks with me, so I was quite relieved I was not the only one to notice the backward step in quality followed by the recovery and improvement.
What causes it is beyond me !!!!

[StingRay]

I have tried out quite a few balanced cables out over time which included Klotz 5000, Belden 8760, Mogami 2549, Van Damme XKE Tour Grade quad and two core.
They were all fine cables with each having their own individual sound, some a bit more sparkly than others (XKE tour grades) and some a bit softer sounding (Klotz and Mogami), but I took the plunge and tried the Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE 1 pair install cable, black at £0.61 per M.
That was a big surprise for me as it was the best cable for me out of all the above. It just sounded neutral, no added sparkle, no warmer sounding, it was just transparent.
I also found that the cables having 100% foil shielding were the most transparent. In order of preference to me was the Van Damme XKE instal followed by the Belden 8760.
I also use the Neutrik XX plugs but went for the silver plated version.
So don't be afraid of the cheapness of the Van Damme instal cable, I would make some up and see what you think of them.

I didn't find burn in taking place with the cables, but I have noticed it on the Dacs that I have built. There was the usual OK, but fairly flat sound to start with, followed by the "That`s much better regarding width and depth" then taking a retrograde step that made me think, "What the heck is going on now?" followed by a recovery of the sound but with added depth, width and resolution.
I thought it was my brain playing tricks with me, so I was quite relieved I was not the only one to notice the backward step in quality followed by the recovery and improvement.
What causes it is beyond me !!!!

Thanks Blueflash for your reply. I should have been clearer it will be unbalanced cable, it is between a Dac and amp. Unfortunately I have hardly any soldering experience or any equipment and for 1 or 2 cables probably not worth it when many more experienced people are making them up unless I use the non solder plugs.
As for sound I want a fairly neutra but not brighter, if anything a touch warmer, my system is very neutral I would say which is fine with well recorded music. I may try a few cables, see if I can tell the difference, I have some Tandy Gold at the moment. The Sommer cable was a bit dissapointing in this test. The spotfire sounds good but is much more money.

[Blueflash]

Thanks Blueflash for your reply. I should have been clearer it will be unbalanced cable, it is between a Dac and amp. Unfortunately I have hardly any soldering experience or any equipment and for 1 or 2 cables probably not worth it when many more experienced people are making them up unless I use the non solder plugs.
As for sound I want a fairly neutra but not brighter, if anything a touch warmer, my system is very neutral I would say which is fine with well recorded music. I may try a few cables, see if I can tell the difference, I have some Tandy Gold at the moment. The Sommer cable was a bit dissapointing in this test. The spotfire sounds good but is much more money.

Hi Ray,
I would try a selection of unbalanced cables, but try to get one that uses 100% foil shielding, I think it helps to stop RFI and could cut down a bit of harshness.
I know that Van Damme do a single ended cable but I don't know how it would sound in your system because I have only been using balanced for the last 15 years !!!!

[StingRay]

Ok thanks. When I get my DAC I may well get a load of cables to try out.

Is the Spotfire still available?