View Full Version : Cleaning CDs, to do or foo?
Hi
While looking at Art du Son cleaning fluid for vinyl I noticed they also make a cleaning fluid for CDs. Now, while cleaning vinyl is clearly a must, I realised that I have never cleaned any of my CD collection- some of which are at least 25 years old- unless a blotchy print led to skipping etc. I suppose I've always thought if the laser is able to read a CD the sound will remain consistent unless the disk is subject to serious manhandling, deep scratching etc whereby it becomes unreadable i.e all or nothing. So...are there any possible sonic benefits to be gained by a good clean with an appropriate product or is it just unnecessary (and expensive) foo as I imagined?
MikeMusic
27-09-2018, 19:40
Picked up some Russ Andrews Relees on Ebay for not a lot
Seems to work, but I'm too lazy to use it
:)
Work in what way :scratch: ?
Picked up some Russ Andrews Relees on Ebay for not a lot
Seems to work, but I'm too lazy to use it
:)
I usually use a dry soft lens wipe cloth
StanleyB
27-09-2018, 22:29
You only need to worry about cleaning things like finger print marks.
You only need to worry about cleaning things like finger print marks.
Ok... but why? Assuming the cd continues playing, do fngerprints really affect sound quality/ reproduction??!
Ok... but why? Assuming the cd continues playing, do fngerprints really affect sound quality/ reproduction??!
No. It will either play perfectly or it will skip or audibly glitch.
No. It will either play perfectly or it will skip or audibly glitch.
What I thought... So foo it is?
sq225917
28-09-2018, 06:52
Yup, if it's not audibly skipping then the error correction is working and the error recovery mechanism in cd is mathematically perfect, it simulates the exact data that was missing. If it skips or glitches then you have unrecoverable errors and a wipe might help.
willbewill
28-09-2018, 06:55
Small marks and dust should have no audible effect but larger ones and crud on the disk can lead to the error correction programs kicking in. One effect of this is to cause difficulties in frequencies above 22k which may be aliased down to audible levels thus causing 'noise', oversampling is used to reduce this.
I've always been of the opinion that anything done to reduce errors 'seen' by the player is a good thing.
I'm a fan of washing CDs with good old soap and water...I use a drop of washing up liquid.
I am of the opinion that your final sum up is about correct:
"I suppose I've always thought if the laser is able to read a CD the sound will remain consistent unless the disk is subject to serious manhandling, deep scratching etc whereby it becomes unreadable i.e all or nothing. So...are there any possible sonic benefits to be gained by a good clean with an appropriate product or is it just unnecessary (and expensive) foo as I imagined? "
My first CD player was the Philips CD101, there was only one shop in the Charing X road in London that had any CD's in stock, and I still have those CD's from 1983, as mentioned before some of my CD's have been very much abused, strewn across the floor at parties with wine spilt on them (I don't do this now) and left to dry till morning clean up, they were washed in the sink with the glasses yet they ALL still play.
In this instance it doesn't matter what position you stand in the room, stand on your head, pray to the gods of sound, the CD will either play or wont, it's digital so no amount of FOO is going to change it's sound until it hits the outside world of analogue.
Got to admit I don't think I would recommend using Fairy liquid on them any more as it like most washing up liquids contains salt that can cause micro scratches but even then if I had to clean (Wash) a disc now I would still use it myself ;-)
prestonchipfryer
28-09-2018, 07:57
Nothing wrong with keeping all your music-related stuff clean. From source to speaker. Just good housekeeping. So nothing foo about cleanliness.
MikeMusic
28-09-2018, 10:20
Work in what way :scratch: ?
Subtle improvement in SQ.
http://www.russandrews.com/reveel-and-relees-pack-54209990000/
Will try it again and report back
Subtle improvement in SQ.
http://www.russandrews.com/reveel-and-relees-pack-54209990000/
Will try it again and report back
'"Diy Remastering!"
I was only looking for a CD cleaner, but despite being a little sceptical, I have to admit that Reveel/Relees is so much more.
Bass, soundstage, timing, space around instruments are all MUCH better... like a well-done remastering job'
Oh dear.
Scary...
'"Diy Remastering!"
I was only looking for a CD cleaner, but despite being a little sceptical, I have to admit that Reveel/Relees is so much more.
Bass, soundstage, timing, space around instruments are all MUCH better... like a well-done remastering job'
Oh dear.
prestonchipfryer
28-09-2018, 12:06
Let's hope this isn't going to turn into a manufacturing bashing thread. It would seem that the OP says he doesn't clean discs but then says he does if they are dirty. So what is the point of this thread?
sq225917
28-09-2018, 12:17
Small marks and dust should have no audible effect but larger ones and crud on the disk can lead to the error correction programs kicking in. One effect of this is to cause difficulties in frequencies above 22k which may be aliased down to audible levels thus causing 'noise', oversampling is used to reduce this.
You have that mixed up.
Error Correction runs all the time, it's never turned off, it's part of the Reed Solomon encoding. It has nothing to do with HF foldback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-interleaved_Reed%E2%80%93Solomon_coding
Oversampling (actually upsampling) in the D/A process is used to push the corner frequency of the filter upwards so that any foldback noise (from the filter itself) is kept outside the audible band. This has nothing to do with error correction it's simply a function of the filter design and amelioration thereof.
Let's hope this isn't going to turn into a manufacturing bashing thread. It would seem that the OP says he doesn't clean discs but then says he does if they are dirty. So what is the point of this thread?
The op was asking if there could be any benefit beyond removing any soiling that was affecting the players ability to read the disc, i.e improved sound quality. A lot of people do seem to think that there is (see the buyer feedback I copied from the RA site above) so not an unreasonable question. But there isn't. A CD is not an LP and there are no similarities in the way that they work.
I tend to just "polish" mine on my t shirt if it looks dusty.
If there are greasy fingermarks then a blob of my normal vinyl record cleaning liquid (distilled water with IPA ) and a wipe dry with a microfibre cloth usually does the trick nicely.
T shirt is normally my first resort too.
a bit of spit will work better:)
That's stage 2 if wipe on the t shirt fails.
That's stage 2 if wipe on the t shirt fails.
but not if you have a chest infection or you'll give the player a virus:)
walpurgis
28-09-2018, 13:24
a bit of spit will work better:)
I heard somebody tried semen. He said it wasn't worth a wank!
Exactly my point, thanks...
The op was asking if there could be any benefit beyond removing any soiling that was affecting the players ability to read the disc, i.e improved sound quality. A lot of people do seem to think that there is (see the buyer feedback I copied from the RA site above) so not an unreasonable question. But there isn't. A CD is not an LP and there are no similarities in the way that they work.
Theadmans
29-09-2018, 17:30
You have to be careful with some of the old Nimbus pressed discs from the 80s.
Factory Records used Nimbus for a lot of their CD releases. The discs have a sticky feel on the the label side (from new).
Try washing them and it will often end in tears !
Being a returned to HiFi, and no time for my photography type of person.
I know of DSLR Sensor cleaning fluids and swabs, that should be very safe to use on a CD.
If a individual is intending on buying a Branded Cleaner, these kits are cost effective and will lift Oil and other crud of a very delicate sensor, so will easily remove a light contamination of a CD.
Haselsh1
30-09-2018, 09:21
Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again; take a brand new uncleaned CD and breathe heavily on it. In the mist you'll see a swirly pattern made by something that is coating the disc. Wash the disc in very hot soapy water and dry using kitchen roll. Breathe on it again. No swirly pattern anymore. What does it prove..? Sod all other than there is something on the surface of brand new CD's that may or may not affect the sound. The outcome of this is entirely with your ears and your system. I no longer do this as I just can't be arsed.
Lawrence001
30-09-2018, 21:03
I'm no expert in digital reproduction especially the way CD works, but putting a few things I've read together I think a good clean might help...
So apparently a CD player will never pick up every single bit on a CD but it will pick up enough to play. Some people say that players with computer readers and buffers are able to spin faster and read ahead and buffer the information, re reading it to fill in the missing bits, which is why they can make good players. And if a CD skips it is usually when a scratch causes it to lose track in the CD and it can't find it's way, not just losing too many bits to make a good stab at the analogue signal. Therefore anything that might help the laser pick up more bits in real time (or increase the probability of it doing so) must be good. This was also one of the reasons I think people went mad on those green pens all those years ago (possibly relating to stray laser light). So surely a nice clean disc can only help pick up a few more of those missing bits?
Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
Anyone remember the green pen? Man years back, they sold a green felt marker that actually painted the edge of a disc green, to absorb any stray red laser light. Many reviewers swore by it! And claimed it made a world of difference. But for some reason they are no longer for sale, apparently the difference wasn’t worth the trouble.
A good CD cleaning solution may or may not improve sound quality, but when your disc gets dirty, it may be worth having a special cleaner for it. Something that will evaporate away without affecting the plastic, or leave a soapy film. I recall some that claimed to fill scratches. Which may be a preventative measure to keep it from skipping at some point in the future. So just because there isn’t an instant improvement in sound, doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile.
Russell
Anyone remember the green pen? Man years back, they sold a green felt marker that actually painted the edge of a disc green, to absorb any stray red laser light. Many reviewers swore by it! And claimed it made a world of difference. But for some reason they are no longer for sale, apparently the difference wasn’t worth the trouble.
A good CD cleaning solution may or may not improve sound quality, but when your disc gets dirty, it may be worth having a special cleaner for it. Something that will evaporate away without affecting the plastic, or leave a soapy film. I recall some that claimed to fill scratches. Which may be a preventative measure to keep it from skipping at some point in the future. So just because there isn’t an instant improvement in sound, doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile.
Russell
Yes the green pen. lol think someone had a few tens of millions of them and started a world wide story.
Ive use the clear filler and also done the brasso one too. Worked for a jukebox firm who always looked for ways to save damaged CDs
Brasso webbing followed by damp cloth and a buff worked best cost wise.
The filler was hit n miss tbh
I've used Brasso webbing to clean up a few secondhand cd/dvd's that would not play.
The green pen was a classic example of how conscious and unconscious bias can affect perception.
The green pen was a classic example of how conscious and unconscious bias can affect perception.
It can be easy to fool yourself. Like the UFO poster from X-Files, “I Want to Believe”.
Russell
It can be easy to fool yourself. Like the UFO poster from X-Files, “I Want to Believe”.
Russell
Thing is if you put some stripes down the bonnet of your car (or the 'hood' as you say) and claimed your 0-60 was 2 seconds better as a result no-one would take it seriously because everyone has a basic idea of how a car works and so they know it is impossible. But people don't tend to have even a basic idea of how digital audio works and so as far as they are concerned anything is possible.
WHAT, are you saying my attempts to beef up my Flymo's performance by having racing checker and go faster stripes was a waste of time, the bloody years I have wasted putting that stuff on all my lawnmowers, sod it...…..
WHAT, are you saying my attempts to beef up my Flymo's performance by having racing checker and go faster stripes was a waste of time, the bloody years I have wasted putting that stuff on all my lawnmowers, sod it...…..
You mean you didn't perceive a slight but definite improvement in how green the grass looked afterwards?
Either you're blind or your lawnmower's not revealing enough...
Thing is if you put some stripes down the bonnet of your car (or the 'hood' as you say) and claimed your 0-60 was 2 seconds better as a result no-one would take it seriously because everyone has a basic idea of how a car works and so they know it is impossible. But people don't tend to have even a basic idea of how digital audio works and so as far as they are concerned anything is possible.
An excellent analogy, i hear others saying, “how do you know this tweak won’t work if you haven’t tried it?”. I suppose a 6 year old may actually believe racing stripes can make a car go faster? (And a few adults I know) but any tweak that relies on magic to work, probably doesn’t work. I’ve never had much luck with magic.
Russell
Duckworp
08-10-2018, 08:06
I have some of the Art du Son cleaner. It works. I have 2 copies of a number of CDs and tried before and after cleaning comparing treated and non-treated. Before they sounded identical, after one was cleaned the cleaned disc sounded better. And expectation bias not relevant as I got someone else to play the CDs blind and I choose the cleaned disc each time.
Duckworp
08-10-2018, 08:11
I have some of the Art du Son cleaner. It works. I have 2 copies of a number of CDs and tried before and after cleaning comparing treated and non-treated. Before they sounded identical, after one was cleaned the cleaned disc sounded better. And expectation bias not relevant as I got someone else to play the CDs blind and I choose the cleaned disc more often than statistically random. My mate could not detect the cleaned cd, so the differences were subtle (but noticeable) and he has self-confessed cloth ears.
How many trials did you do?
Duckworp
09-10-2018, 19:05
How many trials did you do?
3 or 4 CDs. It was some time ago now.
No I mean how many trials did you do with each CD? You've got to do quite a few to get away from random chance. A coin can land heads ten times in a row.
I've done ad hoc blind tests myself and it's been enough to convince me as it convinced you, but if I was going to try to convince anyone else they wouldn't be anything like rigorous enough.
The more unlikely the claim, the more rigorous the test needs to be. In this case for the fluid to improve sound quality as opposed to just making the disc play without skips or drop outs, then the people who designed CD would have to be wrong about the way it actually works. Or there is something completely unknown involved in how it works. So you need to be sure that your test wasn't flawed in some way. Since that is the most likely explanation.
Very well put, I'd be inclined to agree with all points...
The more unlikely the claim, the more rigorous the test needs to be. In this case for the fluid to improve sound quality as opposed to just making the disc play without skips or drop outs, then the people who designed CD would have to be wrong about the way it actually works. Or there is something completely unknown involved in how it works. So you need to be sure that your test wasn't flawed in some way. Since that is the most likely explanation.
walpurgis
09-10-2018, 19:33
the cleaned disc sounded better
Why?
Assuming you have CD's that are clean and in good condition anyway. What could the Art du Son cleaner possibly be doing to explain this?
Ive got a few doubles that I could try this with. even might have some of that cleaner too.
I just cleaned the wax out of me ears and am now listening to Jon Lords "Durham Suite" sounds superb
I just cleaned the wax out of me ears and am now listening to Jon Lords "Durham Suite" sounds superb
Through Tannoy Cheviots? That'll blow the wax out of anyone's ears man.
Frazeur1
09-10-2018, 20:40
Yikes, I might recommend stuffing that wax back in there! Hah, kidding of course....
Any problematic discs (usually caused by fingerprints) just get breathed upon and wiped (in a radial direction) with the microfibre cloth that came with my first CD player (a Phillips 104).
Duckworp
12-10-2018, 03:38
No I mean how many trials did you do with each CD? You've got to do quite a few to get away from random chance. A coin can land heads ten times in a row.
I've done ad hoc blind tests myself and it's been enough to convince me as it convinced you, but if I was going to try to convince anyone else they wouldn't be anything like rigorous enough.
The more unlikely the claim, the more rigorous the test needs to be. In this case for the fluid to improve sound quality as opposed to just making the disc play without skips or drop outs, then the people who designed CD would have to be wrong about the way it actually works. Or there is something completely unknown involved in how it works. So you need to be sure that your test wasn't flawed in some way. Since that is the most likely explanation.
Yeah, fair point. We only did three or four trials per CD each.
bbbiker800
12-10-2018, 15:10
Very well put, I'd be inclined to agree with all points...
Here's a generalism as noted elsewhere by others > a 'device' (eg CD player) that reads either optical (ie CD) or magnetic physical media will use an error correction process for read/write. The read process knows the start and end of what its reading so if there is an error, it will retry a set number of times. After continued failure it will declare it a 'permanent' error and then do something else.
The aim is to preserve the integrity & transfer of a bit(s) so that a 'stream' can be presented to something else.
I'm open minded but cleaning a CD should not have any effect on sound quality since you can't affect the bit ....
My 2cents. I'll get my coat....
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