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MartinT
12-04-2010, 19:49
My SL-1210 So Far (Prequel to the DV507-II)

I thought I'd write up where my 1210 stands so far for the interest of others and also to ensure that I don't myself forget once the deck acquires its new arm. I hardly need any encouragement, I love listening to it and must admit that CDs have taken rather a back seat recently.

My record playing subsystem comprises:

Technics SL-1210
TimeStep PSU
Motor dynamics mod
Strobe off mod
Mike New bearing
Isonoe feet
Internal plastic tray removed
Jelco SA-250ST arm with heavy 750D counterweight
Neglex arm cable
Audiophile (Herbies) mat
Bruil record weight
Audio Technica AT33PTG cartridge
Bob's Devices CineMag step-up transformer (set for 24dB gain)
Mark Grant G1000HD 0.5m interconnect SUT to phono pre
Whest PS.30R phono preamp (set for 50dB gain, 47k load)


http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Technics SL-1210 Big.jpg

Listening to a fresh copy of Hotel California on 180g vinyl just now, I hear the deck's tremendous ability to start and stop, shockingly, revealing the very dark spaces in the music with a sense almost of vertigo. The all-important midrange is detailed, highly focused within the soundstage and reveals tonal and textural detail that elude CD. Frequency range is wide with extended, tight and very satisfying bass weight while the treble is sweet and detailed without any harshness or forwardness. Hiss is low due mainly to the very good noise performance of the Whest, while surface noise is remarkably suppressed, something I have noticed that SUTs excel at.

The balance of virtues is very finely poised with no one element of performance (frequency balance, detail, dynamics, soundstage) overwhelming any of the others. Perhaps I have lucked into some very good combinations here, but I'd like to think that I've been down enough dead ends (Michell TecnoArm, Grade Prestige Gold, PS Audio GCPH, SDS Isoplatmat) to have learned more about how to get everything working well together.

There is tremendous synergy going on here: I would cite the AT/Jelco/CineMags as one obvious partnership, and the Powerplant Premier/TimeStep/Motor Dynamics mod as another. Interestingly, when Hugo (Shuggie) and I tried out the Paul Hynes PSU in place of the TimeStep, we struggled to hear any change at all. I think this has a lot to do with the latter partnership optimising drive to the motor. I do think that Dave of Sound Hi-Fi has underplayed the motor dynamics mod and that this is an important upgrade.

Meanwhile the Mike New bearing and Herbies mat both contribute significantly to detail, tightness, neutrality and providing a transparent backdrop to the proceedings.

Another partnership that works well is the Solid Tech/Isonoe pairing that gives a very high level of isolation to the proceedings, letting the deck float impervious to even quite high levels of vibration when giving the volume control a prod.

This player provides insight from vinyl as I've never had in my system before. It doesn't just slightly improve over the Roksan Xerxes/SME IV/AT OC9/EAR 834P that I used to own, it performs on a different plane altogether.

I have to hope that the DV will play on the strengths of these synergies without breaking anything. We shall see.

twelvebears
12-04-2010, 19:59
Hi Martin.

Thanks for the post, it gives me a 'to do' list for my own Techie which has some but not all of your mods.

I think the next thing for me to consider is the Isone feet as an alternative to the squidge sorbothane ones and probably a dedicated phono stage rather that the (admittedly quite good) built-in MM/MC stage in my MF M3.

chris@panteg
12-04-2010, 22:46
Excellent Martin ' superbly written and informative as always ! the motor dynamics mod has got me thinking .

Either i go down to Dartmouth or send the deck to Dave ? or maybe B&B with the Wifey she will love it down there im sure .

All the best for tomorrow :)

Dave Cawley
13-04-2010, 06:41
http://www.dartmouth.tv/images/boat-float-who.jpg

The motor dynamics mod suits some and not others. But it is an option and quite clearly we have looked at the whole turntable and its holistics. No one else has done this.

Dartmouth receives over 1 million tourists a year, in the winter we are a sleepy town of just 5,000 people with a river running through it.

There are many art galleries and expensive ladies cloths shops. I run a tourism web site here www.Dartmouth.tv

http://www.dartmouth.tv/images/Pan-400.jpg

Regards

Dave

twelvebears
13-04-2010, 08:11
Dartmouth is indeed lovely, but it is also the wing-mirror death capital of the world.

Mine are still fine but I saw a very expensive looking Range Rover one explode on a wall in spectacular style when I was there over Easter. Oh how I laughed.

Top tip: If you have a big car and can't drive, don't visit Dartmouth or go on foot. :-)

Dave Cawley
13-04-2010, 08:24
http://www.dartmouth.tv/News%202010/images/DJC_1703.jpg

There are many roads where a Mercedes S Class even with the rear view mirrors wound in, simply will not go through. I know, I tried it!

Best to use Mayors Avenue Car Park in the winter or the Park-and-Ride in the summer.

Regards

Dave

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 08:30
The advantage of traveling by train... Even if it is now running 34 mins late!

Dave Cawley
13-04-2010, 08:57
Hi Hamish

Which station are you arriving at and when?

Regards

Dave

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 09:10
Martins waiting at totnes for me now, il be there in about 10 mins :)

Snoopdog
13-04-2010, 09:22
http://www.dartmouth.tv/images/boat-float-who.jpg

The motor dynamics mod suits some and not others. But it is an option and quite clearly we have looked at the whole turntable and its holistics. No one else has done this.

Dartmouth receives over 1 million tourists a year, in the winter we are a sleepy town of just 5,000 people with a river running through it.

There are many art galleries and expensive ladies cloths shops. I run a tourism web site here www.Dartmouth.tv

http://www.dartmouth.tv/images/Pan-400.jpg

Regards

Dave

Dave

I'm a bit worried that you know about "expensive ladies clothes shops" ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 16:52
Well, I think a good day was had by all, I'm certainly happy to be taking my tt home and I'm pretty certain martin is a happy chappy!
Thank you to you and yours for your hospitality as well as help and service with the tt Dave! I'm pretty certain I got a excelent deal and do apreciate your understanding with matters of insurance!!

I will let you, Martin lead the way as to where you would like my photos, in here or else where? ... I need to get home and get them off the camera yet of course...

MartinT
13-04-2010, 19:03
My thanks to Dave for his patience, encyclopedic knowledge and good cheer. My special thanks to Jill for keeping us boys fed with coffee, tea & biccies. And Hamish, it was good to meet you and chat incessantly about interesting things without fear of a telling off from our better halves.

Photos first, words later. Shall I just say that the DV is all setup, aligned and playing right now? I have formed a first impression but will write later.

MartinT
13-04-2010, 19:11
The Dynavector headshell is quite weighty but beautifully made and offers the lowest platform from top of cartridge to record surface - important as you will see.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/DV507-II-1.jpg


AT33PTG looking like it was made to go in the 507. We could only get the VTA set correctly by adding a Copper mat underneath the Herbies, so that is now part of the package.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/DV507-II-2.jpg


Looking good...

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/DV507-II-3.jpg


Still looking the biz...

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/DV507-II-4.jpg


Showing the extremely low clearance between the VTA adjustment lever (fixed) and top plate, also the small gap between the rear block (moving) and top plate.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/DV507-II-5.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 19:12
You want the piccys in this thread matey?... I'm just pulling into Worcester now... I'm bloody shattered!

MartinT
13-04-2010, 19:13
Hamish, you took some excellent shots - care to add them here?

Primalsea
13-04-2010, 19:20
Dare I say the first thing I thought when I saw the pics was Skoda with Ferrari alloys lol.
Only kidding, it looks pretty good.

Hamish, be careful or you'll end up like my mate who buys pieces of hifi and then has to hide them from the other half! Either that or hope that she doesn't notice it!

Barry
13-04-2010, 19:40
Looking good Martin!

Early days yet, but would be most interested to hear how the Dynavector performs vis a vis your previous arm (Jelco?)

I'm hoping of course that you will eventually decide that you don't like it, so you can sell it on to me! :lol:

Yours in envy

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 19:52
Martin, il add them on tomorrow I'm shattered mate!

Paul, it's all good, hannah knows everything I buy she even lent me the money for my last perchace! I can't lie to her for some reason, she asks me how much things have cost, I have even tried to fib in the past but as soon as I open my mouth the truth just pops out ... I guess that's probably a good thing!


Looking forward to getting some music out the tt with my new cart arm and feet, but I'm gonna have to wait until thursday evening as Anthony is lending me a sut that shall land here thursday ... I might borrow a project pre from work ... But I'm thinking I might wait til I got the kit I'm gonna use for a while so I get the full hit!

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 20:18
Dartmouth

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000419.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000418.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000417.jpg

Dynavector

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000424.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000425.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000426.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000427.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/_1000428.jpg

MartinT
13-04-2010, 20:25
Great shots, Hamish, both of Dartmouth and my arm. I'm not saying which is prettier :)

Primalsea
13-04-2010, 20:30
Nice pics Hamish, looks like you've done some "arty" stuff in the past and have transferred what you learnt to photographing hifi.

The Vinyl Adventure
13-04-2010, 20:49
Ta, that'll be the 1.7 lens - bit narrow dof... Add a bit of skewed angle and natural light slightly tweaked in lightroom for a bit more contrast and slight vignette - hey presto arty farty photo :)

MartinT
13-04-2010, 22:35
It's late and I need to sleep for work tomorrow but I must just post my preliminary findings as I am shaking my head in disbelief from playing record after record. The Dynavector is certainly cutting the sonic mustard.

I shall leave the setting up notes for another post, suffice to say that getting the DV to work in the Technics is not a straightforward affair as the arm and platter levels are not ideal with respect to each other.

However, all is now properly set up and these notes represent a combined review of the arm and copper mat, since I cannot separate the one from the other. Also Dave reckons the bearings need some settling and the arm cable is brand new too.

I can hear five specific areas of improvement over the already good Jelco arm, and acknowledging this the whole is still better than the sum of the parts. Firstly the bass weight is deeply impressive and reminds me of the structural sound of the SME IV / V family. It's not just extension but texture and the easy ability to hear which note is being played. Coupled with this is an incredible darkness that doesn't affect the music but creates a silent backdrop out of which music emerges. Surface noise is even more suppressed (hard to believe) and rarely intrudes. Thirdly, the dynamics. Oh my goodness, it doesn't matter what I say about this area of performance, you would just have to hear it for yourself. Suffice to say that I don't think I can remember ever hearing between-the-eyes clout and swell like this before. Fourthly, something has happened to the soundstage and it just got wider, somewhat outside of the left/right position of the speakers but more noticeable on a variety of music.

Fifth - this is the tricky one - there is no longer a sense of playing a record for most of the music I have played tonight. Once it starts, the surface noise and pop/tick suppression is so strong that I instantly forget that it's a record playing. There is something structural, too, that makes it all seem more solid than before. It's hard to explain in words but I felt it strongly tonight.

As an aside - is this the only arm in existence that applies damping without the use of fluids?

I am exceptionally pleased with my purchase. It's good to know that the DV507-II is not just some beautiful industrial engineering wrapped around a few outlandish ideas. It really works. I did have faith from previous listens but it's still a relief to discover that taking a chance on it has paid off.

Barry
13-04-2010, 22:42
It's late and I need to sleep for work tomorrow but I must just post my preliminary findings as I am shaking my head in disbelief from playing record after record. The Dynavector is certainly cutting the sonic mustard.

I shall leave the setting up notes for another post, suffice to say that getting the DV to work in the Technics is not a straightforward affair as the arm and platter levels are not ideal with respect to each other.

However, all is now properly set up and these notes represent a combined review of the arm and copper mat, since I cannot separate the one from the other. Also Dave reckons the bearings need some settling and the arm cable is brand new too.

I can hear five specific areas of improvement over the already good Jelco arm, and acknowledging this the whole is still better than the sum of the parts. Firstly the bass weight is deeply impressive and reminds me of the structural sound of the SME IV / V family. It's not just extension but texture and the easy ability to hear which note is being played. Coupled with this is an incredible darkness that doesn't affect the music but creates a silent backdrop out of which music emerges. Surface noise is even more suppressed (hard to believe) and rarely intrudes. Thirdly, the dynamics. Oh my goodness, it doesn't matter what I say about this area of performance, you would just have to hear it for yourself. Suffice to say that I don't think I can remember ever hearing between-the-eyes clout and swell like this before. Fourthly, something has happened to the soundstage and it just got wider, somewhat outside of the left/right position of the speakers but more noticeable on a variety of music.

Fifth - this is the tricky one - there is no longer a sense of playing a record for most of the music I have played tonight. Once it starts, the surface noise and pop/tick suppression is so strong that I instantly forget that it's a record playing. There is something structural, too, that makes it all seem more solid than before. It's hard to explain in words but I felt it strongly tonight.

As an aside - is this the only arm in existence that applies damping without the use of fluids?

I am exceptionally pleased with my purchase. It's good to know that the DV507-II is not just some beautiful industrial engineering wrapped around a few outlandish ideas. It really works. I did have faith from previous listens but it's still a relief to discover that taking a chance on it has paid off.

So, no sale to me then? ;) Looks like I'll have to find a 507 of my own.

Let us know how thing develop, once the 'honeymoon' is over.

Regards

The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 22:49
Hi Martin,
Firstly, it's great that you had the courage of your convictions enough to take the risk.
Secondly, it's fantastic that you feel the risk paid off.
Thirdly, I love it when someone sticks their neck out to demonstrate so conclusively that there can be more than 'the one true path' !

Great stuff! Thanks

Hypnotoad
14-04-2010, 00:01
If that thing sounds half as good as it looks it should be fantastic.

Congratulations on an awesome setup.

chris@panteg
14-04-2010, 00:25
Hi Martin

Congratulations and thanks for sharing this ' i know how much this means to you , it looks staggeringly good and that copper mat is so cool .

MartinT
14-04-2010, 06:21
Firstly, it's great that you had the courage of your convictions enough to take the risk.

Thanks, Chris. I'm lucky enough to have been able to take a punt on it and not cry too much if it hadn't worked out. I did wait 33 years, so I guess I demonstrated patience :)

The Vinyl Adventure
14-04-2010, 06:33
Glad your happy with it buddy! Although, I'm not entierly suprised... And the fact it's probably gonna get better too!

MartinT
14-04-2010, 07:02
The Dynavector is a long arm and it shows since the hole in the arm plate is pushed over to the far right. The German plate has the sunken section of the newer plates (my original Jelco plate was flat), which is what is needed for the tall DV to sit as low as possible. Unfortunately, the VTA adjustment lever and rear block foul on the Technics top plate unless the base is jacked up with nuts above the arm plate.

Set up like this, as low as possible, the dilemma with getting the AT33PTG cartridge to line up is that either a headshell spacer is required (not keen) or the record height has to be lifted. In order to get things level I need the DV headshell (slightly greater drop than the Sumiko), a copper mat and then the Herbies on top. With this combination and VTA set at its lowest, everything just levels out - and I mean with no scope for adjustment left at all. A lower profile cartridge like the DL-103 won't level out with this current setup.

A counterweight for the sub-arm is selected from one of three depending on the weight of the headshell + cartridge. This is then set to balance the sub-arm when the tracking weight is set to zero. The big counterweight at the rear of the arm is there for a different purpose: to keep the pressure on the horizontal ball-race even. It is set according to a scale again using the headshell weight. So the main arm beam remains in balance at all times and the sub-arm moves to accommodate warps. Neat.

A very nice setup gauge allows the cartridge to be aligned in the headshell and everything tightened up before it is fitted to the arm, obviating the need for a standard alignment protractor.

I have since found out that Herbies mats come in different thicknesses, so I shall investigate replacing mine with a slightly thicker one allowing me some height adjustment range. For now, however, everything is fine and sounding mighty good. I shall try the HFS69 tracking tests tonight to see how it performs.

MartinT
14-04-2010, 07:07
So, no sale to me then? ;) Looks like I'll have to find a 507 of my own.

No sale I'm afraid, Barry :)

REM
14-04-2010, 07:19
Hi Martin

Congratulations on your new baby!:lol:

It's great when things like this work out, I 'took a punt' on the whole 1210/SME thing over a year ago and it's turned out to be the best thing I have ever done in 30+ years of hi-fi, cheers.

:cool:

chris@panteg
14-04-2010, 09:29
Ralph ' the 1210/309 combo ' ain't bad is it:)

MartinT
14-04-2010, 11:03
Ralph ' the 1210/309 combo ' ain't bad is it:)

I can believe it. Lovely arm.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-04-2010, 11:09
Happy days my end too martin ... Even through the basic project phonobox it sounds alright ... Roll on tomo when I can get some slightly better pre amp involved!

AudiOH!
14-04-2010, 11:17
Top tip: If you have a big car and can't drive, don't visit Dartmouth or go on foot. :-)

Don't visit Devon period! I'm really fed up with having to reverse half a mile up a lane because the Grockle (err I mean tourist) is unable or unwilling to reverse 5meters to the passing place!:steam:


Les

chris@panteg
14-04-2010, 11:36
I can believe it. Lovely arm.

Hi Martin

i can imagine the sense pride and er well unbridled joy that you must feel about the 507 and how it sounds :) .

Getting the 309 for myself is the same ! i did say i would stop at this point .

But i really need to know what the Mike New Platter and Bearing can do for this deck ' we'll see .

MartinT
14-04-2010, 11:43
Chris - since you have a TimeStep bearing I don't really know what benefit you would hear with the Mike New bearing, suffice to say that it did bring a whole new dimension to insight and clarity.

Perhaps now is the time for you to look at cartridges again. I could make a recommendation :)

REM
14-04-2010, 15:10
Hi Chris

The way I see things is the Mike New bearing gives you more options for the future, from what you've written about the benefits of the TimeStep you are already getting the vast majority of the MN performance so probably for now a new cartridge is the best thing, as Martin suggests.
At least with the 309 you can feel confident that you can use pretty much any cart you like, perhaps even a Decca (maybe).

Cheers

chris@panteg
15-04-2010, 00:06
Thanks Guys '

I must be careful here as its Martin's thread ! but yeah its time for a proper cartridge i think .

Any suggestions are most welcome ' A Decca working right is something else Ralph !.


Martin ' i wonder how this would sound with your Dv507

MartinT
15-04-2010, 05:55
Any suggestions are most welcome

You know I'm going to say Audio Technica AT33PTG! Also Dynavector DV-20X, Ortofon Rondo Bronze. You'll need a SUT to go with any of these.


Martin ' i wonder how this would sound with your Dv507

I can't see it very well but Firebird? Oh yes, that would indeed sound good.

John
15-04-2010, 06:20
Great report Martin sounds like the arm worked a treat

Marco
15-04-2010, 06:32
Hi Martin,

Well done - I'm glad it's worked out really well for you. I admire people taking a risk on something they've always wanted! :)

*But*, when are we getting your more up-to-date findings, after the preliminary ones? ;)

When you get a chance, I'd like to know what your in-depth thoughts are on the Dynavector, once you familiarise yourself with it more, and in your view, how it compares to the other tonearms you've used so far, particularly the SME IV :cool:

Marco.

MartinT
15-04-2010, 07:12
Dare I say the first thing I thought when I saw the pics was Skoda with Ferrari alloys lol.

Bloody cheek! I know what you mean, though :). Every time I walk back into the room and look at it I think "bloody hell"! It does look good and watching it track across the record and cope with warps is fascinating. Like watching a giant crane follow a footpath.

The Vinyl Adventure
15-04-2010, 07:15
Martin ... Signature!

MartinT
15-04-2010, 07:21
*But*, when are we getting your more up-to-date findings, after the preliminary ones? ;)

When I've finished listening to my entire collection! Honestly, I can't pull myself away from it at the moment but don't worry I'll get writing soon. I'm also trying to finish the PSU in spare moments. More soon.

MartinT
15-04-2010, 07:24
Martin ... Signature!

Sorted!

Snoopdog
15-04-2010, 09:17
When I've finished listening to my entire collection! Honestly, I can't pull myself away from it at the moment but don't worry I'll get writing soon. I'm also trying to finish the PSU in spare moments. More soon.

And.........check your Private Messages!!!!!!!!!

MartinT
15-04-2010, 09:41
Oops - replied :rolleyes:

chris@panteg
15-04-2010, 11:44
You know I'm going to say Audio Technica AT33PTG! Also Dynavector DV-20X, Ortofon Rondo Bronze. You'll need a SUT to go with any of these.



I can't see it very well but Firebird? Oh yes, that would indeed sound good.

Martin ' yes it is the Firebird ' wonderful recording .

I do fancy an AT cartridge its going to be between the 33ptg and the latest oc9 ' though i would love an IO ' but s/h is my only option here and a retip by ESC , so that's a maybe .

The IO also needs an SUT to shine though ' where as the OC9 would be perfect into my Diablo at 100 ohm .

Barry
16-04-2010, 01:45
Hi Martin,

Forgive my facetious remarks concerning the arm - I am especially envious, as it is an arm that has fascinated me since I first became aware of it back in the early '80s.

Despite that, or because of that, I have a number of questions to ask of you:


1. Are you using your cartridge (AT33?) under the same conditions (i.e. same tracking force, bias and VTA) as you did using your (9"?) Jelco?
How does the cueing work? Looking at the photos it would appear that the arm lift/lower acts on that part of the arm which can only move in the horizontal plane. I assume that the short, vertical moving, arm stub is arranged so that in its rest position it hangs slightly below horizontal, so that when cue'd the correct VTA is achieved.


2. Is the tracking force achieved solely through adjustment of the counterbalance weight of the short vertical moving stub?
Finally, I have several versions of the Stravinsky 'Firebird'. I'm aware of the Mercury 'Living Presence' version but have never heard it. I do have a couple of these recordings and think well of them, but am aware/suspicious of the 'hype' that surrounds them. (Suspicious of the need for the use of three microphones). Do you have any specific comments on this Mercury recording?

Regards

MartinT
16-04-2010, 06:50
Hi Barry

1. Yes, the AT33PTG is setup exactly as it was before (1.85g tracking, dead horizontal for VTA) as I found these to be the optimum settings. The cueing is fiendish! It actually works on the stub arm, lifting it off the record using a mechanism that works underneath and along the main gantry. The gantry itself only moves in the horizontal plane. This is elegant and, unlike the Jelco, it does not drift when lowered making accurate cueing very easy.

2. Tracking force is achieved by spring from the control knob at the stub arm, having first balanced it out with the (small) counterweight. The second (big) counterweight at the back of the gantry is only there to keep even pressure on the horizontal ball race. Again, very clever.

Incidentally, I tried my most warped record last night, one that has either caused arms to jump or the warp to be very audible in the music. It not only played without breaking a sweat, the warp was inaudible! So its reputation for handling warps well because of the low mass stub arm is justified.

MartinT
16-04-2010, 06:57
Regarding the Mercury recordings, I do know that the three-mic recording technique goes back to Stokowski days and was considered a very good sounding technique for balancing detail from the orchestra with the acoustic of the hall. I note that the BBC still uses this mic array for concert broadcasts (you can see it at the Proms in the Albert Hall, three mics dangling from the ceiling). I guess the proof is in the pudding and the Mercury recordings do sound very good.

chris@panteg
16-04-2010, 08:22
Barry ' can i also point out ' the use of 35mm magnetic film ' this is another reason they sound so good ' and Wilma Cozart Fine .

twelvebears
16-04-2010, 10:17
Don't visit Devon period! I'm really fed up with having to reverse half a mile up a lane because the Grockle (err I mean tourist) is unable or unwilling to reverse 5meters to the passing place!:steam:


Les

I completely understand how annoying it must be. When we visited our friends in Torcross I just automatically shot off in reverse whenever I came nose to nose with any vehicle that wasn't a Landy or looked like it had a family in it.

Fortunately some of us Grockles know both how wide our cars are AND how to go backwards....

Marco
16-04-2010, 16:30
Fortunately some of us Grockles know both how wide our cars are AND how to go backwards....

Grockles? :scratch:

:)

Marco.

Ali Tait
16-04-2010, 16:45
Grockles=tourists!

Marco
16-04-2010, 20:14
Cheers, Ali - haven't heard that one before :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
16-04-2010, 20:32
Aye,it's peculiar to that part of the world.

The Grand Wazoo
16-04-2010, 21:08
What about Emmets then?

Joe
16-04-2010, 21:18
What about Emmets then?

Grockles in Devon, Emmets in Cornwall (emmets = ants).

The Grand Wazoo
16-04-2010, 23:06
I know, I was just playing Devil's advocate, trying to give Marco some more education about the arcane languages of the 'deep south'.
What with that & tubers, he'll be ready for his SAT's any day now!

Joe
17-04-2010, 06:36
D'oh!

I checked in the OED on the derivation of grockle (which, unsurprisingly, is 'uncertain'). Its first recorded written use was 1964, but I guess it must have been used in spoken English for some years prior to that. One of the quotations the OED uses also mentions enhancements like 'grockle bait' - tourist shop tat; 'grockle grub' - fish & chips, and 'grockle nest' - caravan site.

Alex_UK
17-04-2010, 07:05
My dad always calls caravans 'grockle boxes'. We used to sing "little boxes" (on the hillside, all made out of ticky-tacky) whenever we passed a caravan site. (No offence intended to any shed pullers on here... ;))

Primalsea
17-04-2010, 07:34
Alex, no, please insult the shed pullers! They know what they've done and deserve to be derided.

Barry
18-04-2010, 10:08
Regarding the Mercury recordings, I do know that the three-mic recording technique goes back to Stokowski days and was considered a very good sounding technique for balancing detail from the orchestra with the acoustic of the hall. I note that the BBC still uses this mic array for concert broadcasts (you can see it at the Proms in the Albert Hall, three mics dangling from the ceiling). I guess the proof is in the pudding and the Mercury recordings do sound very good.

I've never noticed the miking arrangement at the Albert Hall. Every time I attend the Proms, the stage is covered by an elaborate lighting gantry, with some microphones dangling there as well as some hanging from the ceiling.

Are these three mikes equi-spaced? Do you know what the polar response is (omni, cardoid, cosine?)

Thanks for the info on your Dynavector - I'm still trying to work out that cuing mechanism!

Regards

MartinT
18-04-2010, 12:01
Barry - as far as I know, these are spaced omnis. I'm reading a fascinating book, "Perfecting Recorded Sound" and I shall learn more as I progress through it.

You have to see the DV cueing in action, I think. I may have to post a YouTube video :)

The Vinyl Adventure
18-04-2010, 16:48
Barry - as far as I know, these are spaced omnis. I'm reading a fascinating book, "Perfecting Recorded Sound" and I shall learn more as I progress through it.

You have to see the DV cueing in action, I think. I may have to post a YouTube video :)

xuABVJgCsq0

colinB
18-04-2010, 18:13
Barry - as far as I know, these are spaced omnis. I'm reading a fascinating book, "Perfecting Recorded Sound" and I shall learn more as I progress through it.

You have to see the DV cueing in action, I think. I may have to post a YouTube video :)

Thats a great book. I gave ti away to the guy who serviced my deck and i wish i hadnt. Amazing that there was format wars right from the start of recorded music music. We dont seem to learn from history.

MartinT
18-04-2010, 18:44
Amazing that there was format wars right from the start of recorded music music.

Oh yes - the Edison versus Victrola systems. And it seemed just as acrimonious as some of our more recent ones, such as Blu-ray versus HD-DVD.

MartinT
18-04-2010, 18:45
Nice find, Hamish. That does show how well the DV tracks warps, just as I have found.

Ali Tait
18-04-2010, 18:47
Impressive!

Marco
19-04-2010, 10:14
Hi Martin,


Nice find, Hamish. That does show how well the DV tracks warps, just as I have found.

Indeed - and with it tracking warps so well, this should mean that overall groove stability is superb, which should also translate into a more precise and controlled sound, resulting in (I suspect) an unflappable rendition of 'difficult' material the Jelco would perhaps have baulked at.

Is that what you're hearing, Martin? :)

Also, does the DV have a detachable headshell? It certainly looks that way, which just goes to prove what a load of bollocks people talk about detachable headshell tonearms being 'inferior' to fixed headshell types - talk about a gross generalisation! ;)

Context, as ever, is the key.

Marco.

MartinT
19-04-2010, 10:49
Is that what you're hearing, Martin? :)

Yes, exactly that. The tracking gives the impression of being very secure with no audible warp wow and very stable handling of crescendos. Much must rest with the damping provided by the eddy current mechanism, something which I believe is unique to this arm, and the very low vertical effective mass. Certainly watching the stylus in action shows no overshoot at all, whether the record has vertical warp or an off-centre hole. I believe it also goes towards the superb suppression of surface noise which I must say is very welcome indeed and steps towards the utter background silence of CDs.


Also, does the DV have a detachable headshell?

Yes, it does and the connection seems very snug and secure. I've only been using the DV headshell so far but will try my DL-160 in a Sumiko headshell soon for comparison's sake.

Marco
19-04-2010, 11:10
Nice one, Martin - it's kind of what I predicted... It's so satisfying when risks like this pay off, isn't it?

I've been through similar situations many times. Once was when I forked out around £1500 in advance for a fully KAB-modified brand new SL-1210, imported from America, having no idea what it was going to sound like! :mental:

Fortunately that one worked out ok..... ;)

It was also the same when I had my Sony transport and DAC modified internally by Audiocom, forking out around £1800 in advance with no idea what to expect in return.....

And it was also the very same with the crossover modifications for my Lockwoods, and the extensive mods I've had done to my Croft preamp.

Like you though, I do enjoy the 'speculate to accumulate' philosophy in hi-fi, as the rewards can be substantial - so well done! :)


I've only been using the DV headshell so far but will try my DL-160 in a Sumiko headshell soon for comparison's sake.


Of the two, which headshell is the lightest? I suspect that both the DL-160 and AT33-PTG will be happier in whatever headshell has the least amount of mass.

Marco.

MartinT
19-04-2010, 12:50
Nice one, Martin - it's kind of what I predicted... It's so satisfying when risks like this pay off, isn't it?

It really is, even if it goes against normal advice (I'm always telling people to get a home demo/loan as that is the only proper way to evaluate components). For me the two best 'chances' were the DV arm and the Pass Labs XP-20, ordered blind at an 'opportunity' price to upgrade from my previous X-1 preamp. It worked out really well, representing a significant improvement in sound quality over the already good X-1 at a price I promised not to repeat!

Very satisfying indeed :)

The Sumiko headshell is slightly lighter than the DV, should be fine for the DL-160.

DSJR
19-04-2010, 14:31
Hi Martin,

Also, does the DV have a detachable headshell? It certainly looks that way, which just goes to prove what a load of bollocks people talk about detachable headshell tonearms being 'inferior' to fixed headshell types - talk about a gross generalisation! ;)

Context, as ever, is the key.

Marco.

Don't get me wrong here, but "technically" and "objectively," a detachable headshel IS inferior when measured, having breakup modes at lower mid frequencies (around 200Hz on almost all of them ever tested).

The thing is, you lot (and the far easterners who've been using these arms for decades), have shown that a suitable headshell can terminate the cartridge properly so it doesn't "excite" this resonance overmuch, if at all, so the only "problem" is probably in the arm tube, which most fixed-head arms suffer from. Indeed it can be said that the break can help transmission of resonances I reckon..

I must admit that I like the SME 309/312 fixing, as it seems very "solid."

Anyway, glad the DV507 is turning out so well :respect:

MartinT
19-04-2010, 15:26
The only thing about the DV using a detachable headshell is that the connecting point is almost at the vertical pivot on a very short stub arm, so its effect is likely to be even less than on a conventional arm.

chris@panteg
20-04-2010, 09:47
Be interesting to know how you get on with the DL160 ' i have been experimenting with loading and my findings so far '

100 ohm sounded poor and indistinct !

1k sounds strong and dynamic ' with very good bass but a touch of hardness

47k sounds a little softer but more relaxed ' and perhaps i jumped the gun thinking 1k was better :rolleyes: so going to live with 47k for a while .

i think overall the DL160 gives you a taste of what a good mc can do but i think it falls a little short .

So Martin over to you

MartinT
20-04-2010, 21:48
I just tried the Hi-Fi News HFS-69 test record, playing the so-called torture tracks B (lateral) and D (vertical). The DV and AT combo had no trouble tracking them, so the impression of the AT being held in a vice-like grip is borne out in practice.

The Grand Wazoo
04-07-2010, 23:51
Hi Martin,
I'm just wondering if you'd mind telling us how life is like the the Dynavector, now that you'd had a good spell with it?
Care to let us know?

MartinT
05-07-2010, 07:31
I've had the Dynavector arm running in the Techie now for a while and am happy to report my findings. I'm still not sure anyone else has ever put a DV on a Technics, certainly no-one in Vinyl Engine is aware of another combination apart from mine.

Day to Day Use
The DV, despite looking complex, is quite easy to setup and get aligned - almost as easy as an SME but without the wonderful instruction manual. The mounting plate is critical and there is very little scope for lowering the arm for very low profile cartridges, although different headshells can help here. VTA is made very easy with the adjustment lever and can be changed on the fly. I have not yet swapped cartridges but the headshell is a standard fit although the joint is so close to the vertical pivot that it probably has no discernible effect on the sound. I keep it well tightened, in any case. The arm feels nice and wieldy while being cued up and the vertical cuing is very clever and works well without the sideways drift I used to suffer from the Jelco.

Tracking
I've covered tracking elsewhere, suffice to say that it seems very confident even on fierce passages. It passed all four tracking bands on my HFS69 test record (a first) and always sounds confident. This is probably helped by the unique horizontal damping using magnets and eddy currents. There is no audible end of groove distortion, a measure of its tracking ability, geometry and slightly longer than standard length.

Sound
Quite simply, this arm sounds wonderful. It has taken my AT33PTG to a new level with a performance that transforms this relatively inexpensive cartridge into a giant killer. The midrange is clean, detailed and presented in a wonderful soundstage which is wide and deep. Voicing is very neutral and natural with no chestiness, no accentuation at all. Since the midrange is so very important it tends to carry all else to excellence and indeed it does with this arm. Bass is deep, extended and tight without being overblown. The AT is no bass excavator and the DV reflects this. Perhaps a Koetsu would give more in this area but frankly my system doesn't need it. Treble is sweet, extended and very detailed. On much material it clearly shows up CD's limitations in the treble area.

Dynamics are a revelation. I haven't heard better (of course, there are many turntables I haven't heard and I've only limited exposure to the Continuum) and, with a good pressing, can be quite surprising. Records I thought I knew well are transformed with a performance that comes away from the speakers and with a previously unheard liveliness. Everything sounds good and leading edges are especially realistic giving drums new life in some previously flat recordings. Micro detail is in abundance, an area which seems to flourish when dynamics are good (witness the modified Caiman DAC with similar properties).

All hi-fi is synergistic and never more so than turntable/arm/cartridge combinations. I have no idea whether the DV sounds universally good although the reviews generally suggest so. I certainly think that it is an ideal match for the Technics where the latter's extreme speed stability and stable platform give the DV what it needs to work well. It is a very well engineered arm, beautiful in execution, makes me nod my engineer's mind in approval, and sounds every bit as good as it looks.

Marco
05-07-2010, 08:53
Excellent stuff, Martin, and thanks for the update. I'm glad things worked out well with the Dynavector - it is certainly a rather 'serious' tonearm!

Does it use the standard SME-type bayonet fitting for headshells?

If so, it would be a giggle to hear what my SPU would sound like on the end - now that would be a mad looking combo, and probably a very good sounding one, too! :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Barry
05-07-2010, 08:58
Excellent stuff, Martin, and thanks for the update. I'm glad things worked out well with the Dynavector - it is certainly a rather 'serious' tonearm!

Does it use the standard SME-type bayonet fitting for headshells?

If so, it would be a giggle to hear what my SPU would sound like on the end - now that would be a mad looking combo, and probably a very good sounding one, too! :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Yes it does Marco.

Dynavector/SPU combo? Ought to be good; not sure about overhang adjustment though.

How about a Dynavector/EMT XSD combination? :eek:

Regards

MartinT
05-07-2010, 10:27
Does it use the standard SME-type bayonet fitting for headshells?

Yes it does. It should take the SPU as long as it uses standard length since there won't be any fore-aft adjustment. This is where it differs from the SME, it uses a collar mounting without an SME-type adjustable baseplate.

It would be fun to try :)

Marco
05-07-2010, 10:31
Definitely one to do then next time we have a sesh! Maybe Barry could bring his EMT? Have you guys met before? :)

Dunno how far it is from Essex to Basingstoke.....

Marco.

Barry
05-07-2010, 11:20
Dynavector once made a plug in version of the DV20 for the DV505 (and thus the 507)

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/th_IMG.jpg?t=1278327561

The founder of Dynavector, the late Dr Tominari, based his cartridges on the design of the EMT; hence my speculation on a Dynavector / EMT XSD combination.

Anyway, here’s one for me:

http://webboard.thaigramophone.com/images/awb_image2182550132542.jpg

and one for you:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:qPd3E1wcc2jxkM:http://galerie.magnetofon.de/albums/userpics/10004/IMG_2338.JPG

:)

Regards

Marco
05-07-2010, 11:23
Lol - nice one! Doncha just lurve the 'industrial solidity' of it all? :eek:

It's what I think quality T/T design is all about.

Marco.

Barry
05-07-2010, 11:33
Lol - nice one! Doncha just lurve the 'industrial solidity' of it all? :eek:

It's what I think quality T/T design is all about.

Marco.

Oh yes! I would want one even if they sounded crap - I would display it as a piece of sculpture.

Sorry about the size of 'yours' (No sniggering there at the back of the class!). I tried several times to enlarge it: either it was too large (I hate to have to scroll horizontally) or in this case too small.

Here’s the site, so you can revel in some audio ‘porn’:

http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=dynavector+505&um=1&hl=en&rlz=1T4DKUK_en-GBGB213GB213&tbs=isch:1&ei=RcIxTPz7OoeiOJj9kMQB&sa=N&start=40&ndsp=20

Regards

MartinT
05-07-2010, 11:56
Anyway, here’s one for me

Nice, I believe that the blue finish plus the square baseplate makes it an original DV-505, quite different in detail from mine.

The Grand Wazoo
05-07-2010, 20:09
Thanks Martin, for the update. I'm so glad it worked for you.
Cheers

MartinT
23-08-2010, 12:44
Just an updated picture that I took for Nick (Beechwoods) last night, now having pride of place in the new banner (scroll up). Look carefully and you will see the Mike New platter, too.

http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/DV507-II-6.jpg

worrasf
20-09-2010, 11:45
Can I ask a question regarding the SL-1210 II?
I'm toying with the idea of getting one as a "project" having never heard one before. Currently using an Origin Live Auroa II/OL Silver II/Astatic MF-100. I note huge modding possibilities with the SL-1210 but wondering how it might compare straight out of the box

Regards
Steve

MartinT
20-09-2010, 11:56
Hi Steve
Straight out of the box the SL-1210 will sound highly pitch stable with relatively prodigious bass. With the standard arm it will have a slightly recessed midrange and an overall dark character.
All this changes with mods, depending on what you do with it, but you can take things in small steps and make some big improvements fairly early on, especially with an external power supply and replacement mat.

worrasf
20-09-2010, 12:03
Thanks Martin - any pointers to where I can source an external PSU and internal wiring?
Regards
Steve

MartinT
20-09-2010, 13:13
Sound Hi-Fi for the external PSU http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm

What do you mean by internal wiring? For the arm?

worrasf
20-09-2010, 17:32
Thanks - no, I assumed that the external PSU would need connecting to the existing internal power rail somewhere.
Regards
Steve

Spectral Morn
20-09-2010, 17:57
Thanks - no, I assumed that the external PSU would need connecting to the existing internal power rail somewhere.
Regards
Steve

The Sound HiFi Timestep PSU comes with instructions and connecting cables.

Regards D S D L

worrasf
20-09-2010, 18:35
Thank you - I have emailed Sound Hifi for info on PSU and if possible to get arm board for my OL Silver.

Regards
Steve

Dave Cawley
20-09-2010, 21:38
Hi Steve

All the info I have is on my website.

Regards

Dave

worrasf
21-09-2010, 17:05
Many thanks Dave.
Regards
Steve