Here's one for dealers

[Steve Toy]

Is it a good idea to give setup advice in order to enable potential customers to improve significantly the performance of their hi-fi without spending a single bean?

Now, I know dealers have a living to make like the rest of us and there's no such thing as a free lunch but such acts of altruism do much to enhance reputations. People buy from people as my father-in-law would say. At a later date when your happy punter has money to spend on hi-fi he is more likely to spend it with the dealer who enabled him to make the most of what he'd already got for nowt.

Moreover, when a system is set up properly, subsequent appropriate box upgrades then have a considerably greater impact.

Discuss.

[DrMartin]

There's an assumption built into that proposition: namely that all dealers know how to set up a system properly. I'm sure there are some knowledgable and helpful dealers out there but I've had the misfortune to encounter a couple lately who haven't really got a clue about the products they are selling, so I doubt they'd know how to set it up properly. One of them has to rank as one of the most spectacularly ignorant (in all senses of the word) people I've ever had the misfortune not to do business with.

I would love to name and shame but I gather we don't do that sort of thing here? Not to worry, I've subsequently discoverd that he has a fairly loathesome reputation already anyway.


But to answer the question directly: then yes, I think dealers should be obliged to advise on system set up. There is far too much snobbery in this 'hobby' in the UK IMHO and I'm convinced that it is at least partly responsible for the demise of the industry here.

[Snoopdog]

I think you have to view it from the perspective of the dealer (I am not in the hi fi trade but have a very good friend who is).

The intense competition, coupled to the present state of the economy, the impact of 'direct selling', internet and available customer base has combined to create something of a 'perfect storm' in the hi fi retailing world.

From conversations with my friend, I can appreciate his frustration at receiving telephone calls from people who have cobbled together a system from the classifieds, Ebay, internet etc and then ask his advice as to how to get the best out of it. This is time taken up on the telephone which is unlikely to yield him any money in sales.

Even worse is the punter who rings enquiring about a product or products a dealer stocks, asks loads of questions, demands a home demonstration, asks for a discount and then buys from the cheapest source off the internet or used!

Steve hits the nail on the head when he acknowledges that dealers have to make a living. Why should we expect a service for free? Contrast the UK with the US where the life is driven by the dollar. Tips are the norm and you would receive a rebuke if you failed to give the barman a dollar for every drink served or the waitress or bellboy at a hotel for service rendered.

As a angler, I can see the value in 'baiting a hook' and it can pay dividends for a dealer to be speculative and give all sorts of free advice/time to a dozen people, hoping that there may be one potential customer amongst them, but on the whole, I can see the frustration that can develop through dealing with time-wasters.

My advice, from over 30 years spent in this hobby of ours, is to find a good dealer (and yes, I know that is hard these days with the trade being infested with so many arseholes!) develop a relationship with him and be loyal by giving him your business.

Believe me, the good ones are like gold dust and there can be a lot of unhappy experiences/wasted money on the road to Nirvanha!

[DSJR]

Snoopdog has answered it well I think.

During my 30+ years in the business, most of the time I was so "into" the gear and system matching, I had little idea of the commercial aspects - I'd invite people for a dem for a knowledge broadening session as much as anything else and spend hours on the phone chatting and advising. People such as Mick Parry would have been horrified and perhaps rightly so. It wasn't until later years when I started looking for the end result - come and have a dem with the intention of you buying what you like best.....

In Linn/Naim/Rega dealerships, we had it easy to be honest. Customers would ring up knowing what brands they wanted, it was just a question of sorting which model - a bit like some motor dealerships selling "desirable" cars.

One dealer colleague/friend who sold a range of often "wacky" stuff on-the-fringe as it were, had more than his fair share of time-wasters who either left false phone numbers/addresses, wasted hours listening then saying they'd, "think about it," yet, as my mate's memory was so good, they'd come back a year later for another time-wasting dem having bought their previously preferred item used or cheaper. He soon sussed them out the second time..

I have a local Naim/Rega dealer just up the road whom I'm friendly with and would love to hear the Ovator speakers in all their glory. I wouldn't dream of bothering him though.

If you lot want to hear something but aren't ready to buy, TELL the dealer this, as it puts you on a better footing and the dealer can go into "seed planting" mode.

[hifi_dave]

As above. I have spent some 48 years helping and advising people about this hobby of ours. I really don't mind helping someone with no intention of buying if he is genuine. I've lost count of the number of turntables I have set up, simple faults fixed and general advice given to people who have never bought a thing from me and I don't mind if they ask nicely for help.

What does annoy and upset me are the people who pretend they are going to buy and then waste hours, sometimes days of my time when they have no intention of buying anything at all. Sometimes, this actually costs me money when I have had to turn down a demo request because the 'tyre kicker' is there enjoying himself. Or, I might need to borrow an item or two for the demo and I have to pay the carriage costs. Actually, I never do that now without getting the carriage costs upfront for the dem, unless (of course) I know the customer.

Some people will put you to a huge amount of trouble and inconvenience just to satisfy his craving for a listen to Hi-Fi and it's not right. If only we dealers could charge (even £10) for a dem, it would sort the men from the boys.

[DSJR]

Well, there is an increased interest in "bake-offs" these days, so this may take over from "tyre-kicking" dems.

[hifi_dave]

Not from what I've seen of 'bake offs'. These are usually highly modified pieces of equipment, auditioned against other modified units in a stranger's system in an unknown room. It rarely allows direct comparisons with known equipment and even less likely to include anything up to date.

Bake offs might be fun but it wouldn't allow anyone to audition/choose a new system...:scratch:

[Haselsh1]

Hmmm... this reminds me of 1997 whilst I was involved in the Hi-Fi trade. I had driven 120 miles to Nottingham to demonstrate a pair of Triangle speakers against the guys Mission units only for the guy to um and arr that they were not quite right. He then went on to say "I'm actually looking to upgrade my system without spending any money". My wife and I were aghast.

[DSJR]

Shaun, I feel for you and can relate something similar on a personal note many decades ago now which included the hiring of an estate car to complete the "transaction," which subsequently didn't happen - never again.........

The trouble is, just "lending" equipment to strangers doesn't always work either (covering payment left of course). I've many stories here and the answer is to be in charge of the dem, or at least to be at the beginning of the loan period; not to dictate but to guide and advise the client. This latter approach worked for me, as initial feelings will be confirmed as the hours progress.

The best sales I had was with a shop dem for the client to narrow the options down into something feasible and then trying/buying the stuff at home. We had a 14 day exchange scheme anyway and 99% of clients were delighted with this option. The 1% who demanded a refund weren't worth bothering with as they were pretty horrible people i found.

Can't put it into words, but I never set out to rip clients off, although I can name one or two ex-members of the industry who did.....................

[Joe]

From the other side of the fence I've had:

Dealers double-booking audition slots, causing me a wasted journey.

Arranging to audition a piece of equipment, only for the dealer to say, on the day of the demo: 'Oh, we haven't got that in stock at the moment; would you like to hear this entirely different item instead?'

Dealers refusing to let me compare items that they had in stock, because 'A is so clearly superior to B', coupled with an attitude akin to that shown on the 'Not the 9 O'Clock News' sketch.

Plus some positive experiences, of course!

[Snoopdog]

Joe

I think we have all been there!

There is always the 'dance' involved when seeking to form a relationship with any new dealer.

The bad ones will give themselves away by some of the tricks you mention plus displays of sheer arrogance, rudeness and disinterest.

If this is your experience, then walk away and keep trying until you find a dealer who is also an enthusiast and interested in getting you to where you want to go.

It is a two-way street though and we as customers should be prepared to demonstrate that we are serious purchasers and not just 'tyre kickers' out to waste the time of someone who has a living to make.

If we fail to support dealers they will eventually disappear, along with the opportunity to benefit from their experience, knowhow and access to some really good gear!

[Steve Toy]

Talking of dealers Steve I see a lot from the AudioWorks/Blade portfolio in your system. Those guys are really shit-hot and were actually an inspiration in starting this forum.

Do you have the Reflex block? Personally I think this is a must. The very best dealers actually make some of their own gear.
It might seem wise to use MW gear such as the block in conjunction with all their other ancilliaries - stands etc but the block works well in any system capable of carrying a tune and brings it to life.

Hey, it even works in Marco's scaffolded system ;)

[Peter Galbavy]

Another view from the other side, but also from someone who has been at the pre-sales support end of many computer / network / internet purchases for too many years.

As a customer I am willing to pay a premium to someone who has the patience and knowledge to help me make the right decision - and the converse is also true, waste my time and you get blacklisted, never to see my money. The trouble is that I am in a minority. There are a few of us but are there enough to keep a whole retail industry going ? I agree with Steve's conjecture about help now buys solid business later, but the problem again is that this is a very small consumer base :(

The problem I can see is that of the set of potential customers that would have the commitment to bring future business back to you divided into sub groups; (1) Anyone who is serious into this game (or any "hobby") is more likely not to want or need direct help as they want to advance their own knowledge and experience - or thinks they know what they are doing and would feel insulted with offers of help, (2) People who are likely to appreciate help with a setup may include those who don't necessarily know what they buying or have received (usually incorrect) advice from uncle / nephew etc. like happens with PCs. (3) Then there is that small set of newly inducted folks who want more from their music but can't afford much right now are a good bet and hopefully still a growing market.

I expect the most important skill here is not audio knowledge but learning to sort the wheat from the chaff :D

[DSJR]

Twenty five to thirty years ago, the footfall through the better audio shops waxs good enough to deal with ALL kinds of client, as the time-wasters made up so few of the people in the shop. When I went to Northampton in 1998, the dem-diary was full all week, but after my two years on the road and my subsequent part-time return, the diary was almost empty apart for a few service calls. The boss saw the end and let it die a slow death...

[Snoopdog]

Talking of dealers Steve I see a lot from the AudioWorks/Blade portfolio in your system. Those guys are really shit-hot and were actually an inspiration in starting this forum.

Do you have the Reflex block? Personally I think this is a must. The very best dealers actually make some of their own gear.
It might seem wise to use MW gear such as the block in conjunction with all their other ancilliaries - stands etc but the block works well in any system capable of carrying a tune and brings it to life.

Hey, it even works in Marco's scaffolded system ;)

I did try the MusicWorks Reflex block when I first exchanged my Nordost Valhalla cable loom for MIT/MusicWorks cables.

I agree it is a very good product and my only objections to it were based on purely aesthetic grounds - I could not get on with mains cables exiting the block in all directions and forming an (to me) unsightly 'octopus' of cabling.

I was introduced to the Vertex Elbrus balanced PSU by my dealer and this is a much neater prospect for dealing with cable management and has some very important extras thrown in which I feel benefit my system over the MusicWorks block.

The three balanced outputs allow me to isolate my digital components from the rest of the system and the Elbrus also in corporates passive filtering (2 x Silver Jayas) and vibration reduction elements which help every component connected to it. There are also two unlimited outlets for connecting power amps which are unsuitable for the balanced outputs.

As a matter of interest, I have the Reflex block in circuit at the moment for a two week evaluation of the David Berning Preamp and Quadrature monoblocs along with a full complement of the latest MusicWorks ReVive mains cables (full report + pictures to follow) :)

[Steve Toy]

Reflex block plus Anthony filter for digital sources plugged into the block is a good combination.

[monya]

I did try the MusicWorks Reflex block when I first exchanged my Nordost Valhalla cable loom for MIT/MusicWorks cables.

I agree it is a very good product and my only objections to it were based on purely aesthetic grounds - I could not get on with mains cables exiting the block in all directions and forming an (to me) unsightly 'octopus' of cabling.

I was introduced to the Vertex Elbrus balanced PSU by my dealer and this is a much neater prospect for dealing with cable management and has some very important extras thrown in which I feel benefit my system over the MusicWorks block.

The three balanced outputs allow me to isolate my digital components from the rest of the system and the Elbrus also in corporates passive filtering (2 x Silver Jayas) and vibration reduction elements which help every component connected to it. There are also two unlimited outlets for connecting power amps which are unsuitable for the balanced outputs.

As a matter of interest, I have the Reflex block in circuit at the moment for a two week evaluation of the David Berning Preamp and Quadrature monoblocs along with a full complement of the latest MusicWorks ReVive mains cables (full report + pictures to follow) :)

Ahah!
Now this should be interesting. Looking forward to the report. Should imagine the full wacko could be painful on the wallet

[Snoopdog]

Ahah!
Now this should be interesting. Looking forward to the report. Should imagine the full wacko could be painful on the wallet

I'm already searching down the back of the sofas for any loose change!