View Full Version : Gulp...i've bought the 8000m's !
Afternoon all,
As you know i've been unsure to go for the 8000p or the 8000m's. Well i changed my order yesterday and waiting on derlivery of the 8000m's and two chord chameleon interconnects.
These will be adding to my Kef IQ5se speakers, audiolab 8000cd and 8000s amp. Now i'm worrying what the sound will be like, gulp !
Do i put one pair of speak cables into each 8000m ? Or do they stay in the 8000s ?
Cheers guys....
You'll be fine.....
Try the 8000S amps on the tweeter circuit and the M's on the bass-mid feed, configuring the 8000S control to enable both internal and external amps for bi-wiring.
When I bi-amped older KEF Q series in the shop, the speakers seemed to take on a stature unheard before. We could only sell this option by demonstration, but it suited us fine and we usually made the sale..
Enjoy! You'll have to spend far far more to get anything "better," and that will be as much a matter of personal taste as anything else... :)
Nice one Graham. I have only heard the P on the end of an S, but I suspect a pair of Ms will be more of the same Audiolab sound that you obviously like - (I do too, only changing from my 8000S last year as it was getting old and falling apart after 13 years of non-stop (ab)use - I'm not sure my current Creek is better.) Enjoy, and let us know how you get on with the option DSJR suggests compared to wiring both speakers directly from the Ms.
chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 22:28
You'll be fine.....
Try the 8000S amps on the tweeter circuit and the M's on the bass-mid feed, configuring the 8000S control to enable both internal and external amps for bi-wiring.
When I bi-amped older KEF Q series in the shop, the speakers seemed to take on a stature unheard before. We could only sell this option by demonstration, but it suited us fine and we usually made the sale..
Enjoy! You'll have to spend far far more to get anything "better," and that will be as much a matter of personal taste as anything else... :)
Sounds like good advice to me :) it should give you some serious wallop ' I'm sure your going to have fun with them .
Cheers guys, you've eased my worries ! Some great advice there, thank you. Always worry when you spend good money that it will not sound as good as you hoped or worse ! :rolleyes:
Sure they will be great, least they look good !
Haselsh1
12-04-2010, 08:36
Well done, the 8000M's will give you some serious bass weight and power. Don't be put off by them being made in China. They have a lot of weight and quality behind them. As I said in your other thread, I only got rid of mine just before Christmas for my Croft setup.
thanks Haselsh1. I hope they are not to Bassy. Don't want them to boom the sound out.
Haselsh1
12-04-2010, 13:14
Sorry, I should clarify. When I say bass weight I mean solidity and gut wrenching thud. The bass will only get very overpowering if that is a characteristic of your speakers. I am very sure you will enjoy them immensely.
Assuming the current range is using the PX/MX circuit which was changed to before the disastrous Tag take-over, then you WON'T have too much bass. The "X" circuit was/is direct coupled I understand and a taut, lean but very punchy bass is the result. Careful choice of interconnects will ensure no harshness (the M's never really sounded harsh in any event :))
Alex, your "S" shouldn't be falling apart unless you dropped the thing, and even then...
I understand that the current Audiolab service dept (Hi Sean:)) is able to fettle the original stuff too, so get your old S there for a sorting out......;)
Good advice, thanks.
Interesting form Hi Fix the guy suggested
"That’s the way I would do it, the main advantage of the mono’s is to bi-amp your speakers, just try both way and see which you prefer. With the monos powering the speakers you’re going to get a lot more drive and power, probably notice the bottom end tighten up a lot."
Makes sense i suppose....
Does anyone have any advice on my previous comment ? Thank you. :)
Assuming you haven't altered your speaker leads yet, the first option is to configure the "S" as a preamp only and use the mono's as the main driving amps. This should lift the performance due to the extra headroom now available..
The next option is to use the 8000S amp section for the tweeters and the 8000M's for the bass-mid. The frequency spectrum of most music puts 90% of the energy in the bass and mid, the tweeters handling about 10% of the signal. Our ear's greater sensitivity in the treble over the bass sort of balancing it a bit.
Like I said before, the 8000M's on their own will give a quite substantial improvement. Adding the "S" amps for the tweeters *should* open things up a bit more, certainly in "size" rather than extra details.
Hope this answers your question.
Can you help put it in simply terms for me. :o
Wiring the speakers to the 8000s will help ?
also, wiring the speakers to each 8000m will help ?
Sorry, i'm getting used to it all.
Ali Tait
13-04-2010, 11:43
Do your speakers accept bi-wiring? I.e. are there 4 connectors on the back of each speaker? If so,the top set will supply the tweeter,and the bottom set will supply the mid/woofer.Connect your S to the tweeters of both speakers,and use the new monoblocks to supply the mid/woofers,one amp for each speaker.
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 12:14
Graham
You need to read this article in the AoS Library:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5818
What the folks above are referring to is shown in diagram No. 4
Think of the HF (tweeter) amp that's shown there as representing your integrated amp. Think of each (Left & Right) channel of the LF (bass/mid) amp as your mono amps.
Hi,
Yes the Kef iq5se are bi-wire able. They have four outputs on them.
I'm getting a little confused, as my chord bi-wired cables have four output plugs for the speakers and they've paired the two wires together at the other end to the amp into two plugs.
Do i need both ends to have four plugs ? :scratch:
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 13:56
Yes, if you want to bi-amp , that's how you'll need your cables to be configured. They are currently configured as per diagram 3 in the article I linked you to. I think you'll find bi-amping more satisfying than just using the mono amps alone (not to mention the fact that you have a perfectly good power amp section within your integrated that would be made redundant).
It should be simple enough to change the cables to accomodate this.
that link does help. I can see its diagram 5 i probably want to get to. Just not sure how this works for two monoblocs. I'm getting a headache now !
This is what the dealers come back to me saying ....
"If you wired the treble into the integrated I feel it may become slightly harsh at higher volume’s whereas the mono’s provide more power efficiently, the best future upgrade would also be to replace the integrated with a pre-amp, so re-terminating the cables to use the 8000s and the 8000m would in some respects be an unworthy upgrade. Though, it is your Hi-Fi therefor it is your choice."
I'm very confused now !
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 15:03
......... so re-terminating the cables to use the 8000s and the 8000m would in some respects be an unworthy upgrade.
Because they want to sell you a seperate pre-amp! That may be the way to be thinking for later, but I'd be wanting to try bi-amping with what you have first if I were you.
You're aiming for diagram 4 not diagram 5. To do diagram 5 you would need 4 identical mono amps.
You should re-read this bit, that I said earlier, carefully.
Think of the HF (tweeter) amp that's shown there as representing your integrated amp. Think of each (Left & Right) channel of the LF (bass/mid) amp as your mono amps.
OK then - Step by step:
INTEGRATED AMP:
Right channel speaker cables go to upper terminals on right hand speaker (Black to black/red to red)
Left channel speaker cables go to upper terminals on left hand speaker (Black to black/red to red)
Pre amp out sockets - one interconnect to each mono amp. The one with the black plugs will go to your left hand mono amp. The one with the red plugs will go to your right hand mono amp.
LEFT HAND MONO AMP:
Speaker cable to lower terminals on left hand speaker (Black to black/red to red)
RIGHT HAND MONO AMP:
Speaker cable to lower terminals on right hand speaker (Black to black/red to red)
When you've done it, Label all the cables properly. Put a label on each end by each plug, telling you where it should plug into. Put a label on the back of each of your mono amps to tell you whether it's the left or the right hand channel. Take photographs and/or draw a schematic diagram.
Is it likely to sound harsh at higher levels ? Can't be a lot difference in the 8000s and a pre-amp.
"If you wired the treble into the integrated I feel it may become slightly harsh at higher volume’s whereas the mono’s provide more power efficiently,"
He also said "Don’t forget you would need an extra interconnect as well."
Would i ? Must admit i'm getting a bit lost. Sorry if your all getting fed up with me !!
Ali Tait
13-04-2010, 17:27
You'll need i/c's between the old integrated and the new monos as you are using the preamp section to drive both the power section of the integrated,and the new monos.
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 17:33
Is it likely to sound harsh at higher levels ? Can't be a lot difference in the 8000s and a pre-amp.
"If you wired the treble into the integrated I feel it may become slightly harsh at higher volume’s whereas the mono’s provide more power efficiently,"
Has he tried it? By what he's saying, I suspect not.
He also said "Don’t forget you would need an extra interconnect as well."
Would i ?
As long as you have two lengths of cable (one for the left channel and one for the right channel) with RCA phono plugs on each end of them that you can put between your integrated & the power amps (one cable going into each power amp) you'll be fine.
Then the hi fi guy not making sense then.
I'm thinking all i will need is one set of interconnects (2 plugs on each end).
on the 8000s (int amp) put the two ends of the interconnect into "power amp in" on the back of amp then each feed (1 red, 1 black), one in 8000m input and in the other input on the second 8000m.
what are the "pre-amp out" 1 and 2 ? Is that where i should plug the poweramps into ?
as far as i know, each monobloc has a single input so a standard interconnect would be able to be plug to both ?
for some reason i'm very confused about this. Can't seem to grasp it.
Why would i need a second interconnect cable (another 2 plugs on each end).
I'm probably not making sense ! Thanks for sticking with me here Chris !
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 18:37
You are still a little mixed up!
You should think of the system as a river with the music flowing down it from source (erm....your source) to the sea (your speakers). The signals flow in through an input, through the circuit and out of the output. You're getting your inputs & outputs mixed up a bit.
The source components plug into inputs on your pre amp
Take the signal from a pair of the pre outputs to the inputs on your power amps.
There are two sets of outputs to allow you to connect more power amps should you choose to! You only need one pair, forget the others.
You said:
on the 8000s (int amp) put the two ends of the interconnect into "power amp in" on the back of amp then each feed (1 red, 1 black), one in 8000m input and in the other input on the second 8000m.
The power amp in socket is in case you want to use it as a power amp only. That's where you would bring cables from your seperate preamp to. It does the same job as the input socket on the back ogf your 8000M's. Forget about it - use pre out
Make sure the switch on the front is selected to configure the amp to bi-amp, not just as a preamp or a power amp.
my options on the front of the 8000s are :-
- PRE
- MUTE
- INTERGRATED
- PRE-POWER
- PRE-POWER-AV
so i would select PRE_POWER ?
So i i want to bi-amp and bi-wire, i'll put the interconnect in "PRE-AMP out" 1. Put one end of the interconnect in one monobloc and the other in the monobloc two.
Then put the top of speaker cables into the 8000s (int amp) and the bottom into one 8000m.
Am i on the right lines ?
Why would the hi fi guys say i need a second interconnect cable ?
Would you be able to draw me a very basic diagram ? cheeky i know, but would help a bit.
Ali Tait
13-04-2010, 19:07
We'll get there eventually!
Mark Grant
13-04-2010, 19:08
If it helps the audiolab website shows a diagram in the manual:
pdf here:
http://www.audiolab.co.uk/downloads/service/8000S/Brochure/8000S_11.pdf
look at section 4 operation
The first drawing shows it with an 8000P in pre-power mode.
a pair of 8000M is wired the same as an 8000P would be, 1 x 8000M for each speakers bass channel.
never easy trying to explain.
Mark.
Ali Tait
13-04-2010, 19:10
The dealer said that because you need another i/c between the integrated and the monos,but you already have one.You would not be using this if you had not bought the new amps.Also,he probably hoped to sell you a new one!
I bought two sets, so 4 single cables. two single cables from the CD to the 8000s.
the other two single cables can go from the 8000s to the 8000m's.
I bought both sets from him as well. Maybe he knows i'm struggling and trying to get another £90 out of me :scratch:
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 20:35
Right then.
Try this..............
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4893/audiolabbiamp.jpg
Good work Chris, I'm sure Graham will appreciate the effort, and should make it clearer.
Ali Tait
13-04-2010, 21:02
Nice one mate!
Right Gbeer, tell your dealer TO TRY IT FOR HIMSELF!!!!!! before spouting old Naim active bullsh*t about the bigger amps going on the tweeters, much of this being the cruel loading of theirs and Linns squeakers of the time.....
A typical music signal has little more than harmonics and "air" at tweeter frequencies, except for the odd cymbal crash. I'm not suggesting in the slightest that these frequencies are unimportant, but there isn't the power-sapping drain as there is in the bass and midrange, hence my recommendation AS SOMEONE WHO'S TRIED AND SOLD IT!!!!! - a number of times using both Audiolab, Rega, Naim and Arcam with a variety of speakers including KEF Q's, SQ's, Spendor S series' and Rega's.
One day, you may feel you'd like to upgrade further, in which case, buy an 8000Q and either an 8000P for the tweeter circuit, or a second set of 8000M's. For now though, what you have will be fine. Just trust someone who's known Audiolab (and the original boss Phil Swift from his Lentek days) since they started...
Thanks Chris for the diagram, thats brilliant. A picture paints a thousand words !!!! :lol:
Cheers Dave. I value all your opinions.
Just going through your diagram Chris.
Why on earth would the Hi Fi chap say if i want to bi-amp i'll need another set of interconnects ?!:scratch:
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 21:35
You're welcome.
Is it clear now?
..............God forbid I made a mistake somewhere!
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 21:36
Just going through your diagram Chris.
Why on earth would the Hi Fi chap say if i want to bi-amp i'll need another set of interconnects ?!:scratch:
I'd rather not comment!
please do, cos he confused me. Almost like he was putting me off bi-amping. :scratch:
Top diagram, made it oh so clear ! Thank you very much.
Hi Chris,
I applaud you efforts to provide a visual explanation of the necessary connections to be made for Graham to bi-amplify his speakers.
Without wishing to be a bit of a Jonah, if Graham follows the connections as shown to the various phono sockets and speaker connections he will be OK. However the legends "LEFT SPEAKER CABLE (high frequency)" and "RIGHT SPEAKER CABLE (high frequency)" are actually transposed.
Pedantically yours
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 21:53
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr
You & your red pen, I knew there had to be a mistake somewhere!
Thanks Barry - I'll sort it shortly
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr
You & your red pen, I knew there had to be a mistake somewhere!
Thanks Barry - I'll sort it shortly
Nay probs, as they say.
Anyway, as I said, if Graham follows the connections as shown all should be fine. I'm still impressed at your skill with these sort of diagrams.
Regards
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 22:25
That's done now.
While I was there I also managed to veneer the speakers & get some of the cables tidied up a bit. (Some of them may just have been touching the wall!)
That's done now.
While I was there I also managed to veneer the speakers & get some of the cables tidied up a bit. (Some of them may just have been touching the wall!)
Yes, but did you 'sex' the cables? They might be directional! ;)
Regards
The Grand Wazoo
13-04-2010, 22:35
All my cables are hermaphrodites!
All my cables are hermaphrodites!
Good - that means you can play your AC/DC albums (should you have any) without worry!
Regards
Damm work proxy stop me seeing the updated diagram !
Does that mean i'll need to buy an extra set of interconnects ?
When i asked the hi fi guy why i would need an extra interconnect he said
"1 x R/L on each mono. So instead of going single cables into each you would need a R and L going into each, do you follow? I can send a diagram if it helps??"
I think i'm getting there and then a Spaniard in the works !
Mark Grant
14-04-2010, 07:45
All you need is one pair of cables between CD player and 8000S and then another pair to connect the outputs from 8000S to each of the 8000M inputs, so two pairs in total, only one pair needed when you add the 8000M's to your system as they are mono, so a single cable to each of the 8000M.
Its in the 8000S manual :)
The Grand Wazoo
14-04-2010, 07:55
Does that mean i'll need to buy an extra set of interconnects ?
"1 x R/L on each mono. So instead of going single cables into each you would need a R and L going into each, do you follow?
He's talking out of his bottom. Find a new hi-fi guy.
I'm pretty lost what he means. He's going to draw me a diagram, so i'll post that later !
There's only one input connection on the 8000m. :rolleyes: Couldn't fit another interconnect there if i tried !
Whats the "loud" plug on the back of the 8000m for ?
So i am safe in using 1 pair of interconnects (2 single cables) to bi-amp the 8000s to the two 8000m's ?
Sorry to keep on, just really baffled by what this "Hi Fi" guy is on about.
Mark Grant
14-04-2010, 08:08
The excellent diagram that Chris made explains it well, cant get much better than that really.
So i am safe in using 1 pair of interconnects (2 single cables) to bi-amp the 8000s to the two 8000m's ?
Not only 'safe' but the correct way to do it :)
Cheers Mark. I'll looked forward to seeing my Hi Fi guys diagram then !
The Grand Wazoo
14-04-2010, 09:46
So i am safe in using 1 pair of interconnects (2 single cables) to bi-amp the 8000s to the two 8000m's ?
That's the only way to do it properly - just follow my diagram when you get a chance to see it.
Thanks Chris for your help. I will.
I'm not sure where the Hi Fi guy thinks i can plug another set of interconnects in. :doh:
Hi Fi guy replied with
"It was my mistake with the 8000m’s there is only one input, I think I was getting myself confused. "
So top work guys ! Thank you for all your help. Chris i've printed off your diagram to follow. Just got to wait for them to turn up. Hopefully a weekend task !
Again, many thanks everyone for your spot on advice.
Graham
Ali Tait
14-04-2010, 16:26
Yes,that's fine.Don't listen to him,listen to us!!
Haselsh1
14-04-2010, 16:33
I'd like to wish you all the very best with your new 8000M's. I just know you're gonna love 'em. I did.
Thank you Haselsh1. I'm getting excited. They been dispatched so hope to seem them tomorrow.
Only problem is my speaker cable was sent to be have Airloc plugs put on. Hoping to have it back by Friday ! I'll post a picture once i get them of my setup.
Haselsh1, how did you have your 8000m setup ? were they bi-amped and what pre-amp did you use ?
I liked the Airloc plugs and we sold hundreds of the bloomin' things. it won't hurt (knowing what I do - ahem - ) to add some heat-shrink around the outside of the shell and over the cable insulation to as fully as possible seal any exposed strands from the air(you always get a little bit exposed...) Either that or a dab of hot-melt glue in the top of the plugs (Mark Grant does something similar and IMO a very good idea).
Haselsh1
14-04-2010, 16:56
I used a Creek OBH-something or other passive pre with a nice electronic remote into the 8000M's which were just used as ordinary monoblocks, ie, one per speaker. The sound was amazing and perfect for my electronica and prog rock. Plenty of gutsy power. I only got rid of it all for my present Croft pre/power.
Thanks guys, Intresting. Learning so much about all this hi fi stuff !!
Ali Tait
14-04-2010, 18:35
You could connect them with any wire you have lying about if you can't wait for your cable to come back.
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