Garrard plinth: Shindo vs Artisan Fidelity

[nickbaba]

Looking for some info/experiences of these 2 quality plinths for a Garrard.

Not looking for recommendations for slate plinths, thanks.

The AF looks massive (deep) and solid - the Shindo looks lighter and shallower, but I understand it can make the Garrard really sing.
Is the Shindo solid Cherry wood, vs layered Birch ply/Cherry for the AF?

Anyone using either one of these at home? Mr.Westlower, didn't Russ C make you a Shindo style plinth?

[nickbaba]

btw I love the look of the huge, tall, piano-gloss AF plinth, but I've read it can perhaps over-damp the Garrard, and negatively affect the soundstaging?

[WESTLOWER]

Looking for some info/experiences of these 2 quality plinths for a Garrard.

Not looking for recommendations for slate plinths, thanks.

The AF looks massive (deep) and solid - the Shindo looks lighter and shallower, but I understand it can make the Garrard really sing.
Is the Shindo solid Cherry wood, vs layered Birch ply/Cherry for the AF?

Anyone using either one of these at home? Mr.Westlower, didn't Russ C make you a Shindo style plinth?

Yes Russ made my wonderful Shindo style plinth, from sapele
Great!

[anubisgrau]

shindo plinth is (according to publicly available information) only laminated solid cherry wood. i assume AF plinth with mixed solid wood comes from theory of dampening vibrations with materials of different resonant merits, including different types of wood.

[DSJR]

Idler Garrards RUMBLE, and really, all you can do is sink as much away from the stylus as possible. I suspect the bass 'drive and power' that 'we' like from idler models is mixed up in the rumble spectrum to be honest, but that's just my instincts borne of plenty of experience over the decades.

I don't know either of the plinths you mention, so can't say more, but is Martin Bastin still about? Appearances aside, his Garrard plinths really used to work, the 301 and 401 quietening down no end when properly set up in one, to the point where you could play loud without too much noise in the background. Obviously, may I also suggest at least a look at the Loricraft plinths before you dive in and spend shedloads of money - I mean, they of all people should have an idea how to sort one of these old decks out to best advantage.


For some silly? reason, I got the impression that slate may not be the be-all-and-end-all for Garrard plinths. I don't know why, but thirty years ago I discovered multi-layered and individually jigged birch marine ply seemed to get the (then?) very best out of these decks, the result being a slightly convex sound-stage of great power and detail and with absolutely minimal drive noise getting in the way.

Good luck - I asked a pal to store long-term a truly mint 401 I was given decades ago (I had something better then) and it's now lost, possibly for ever, in his 'audio museum' boxes and I'd love to have it back and plinth it up properly :(

[WESTLOWER]

I can’t compare to other plinths but you are welcome to stop by for a session nick

[CliveG]

I have owned the Shindo, and a Russ Collinson clone but am not familiar with the AF plinth. The Shindo did somehow sound more musical and the RC never quite matched it, a fact I suspected might be due to the actual timber used, although I have no evidence for that.
Both were substantially outclassed by the Bob Cusworth Signature plinth, which is a high mass construction utilising bamboo resin and other materials with the motor, drive unit and arm pod all separated. Mine is identical to this one here:
https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/91641-cusworth-signature-plinth-garrard-301-sme-m2-12-j/?tab=comments#comment-1677811
Questions of noise just never cross my mind when listening to my 301 in this plinth.

[nickbaba]

AFAIK Martin Bastin is enjoying his retirement these days. But I could be wrong?
That Bob Cusworth Signature plinth looks the business, but at 3.5k+ is beyond my budget unfortunately. My plinth budget is more like 1.5k max.

Thanks for the invite Adam I might try and take you up on that if I'm over your way at some point.

Here's a couple of images for those not familiar with these plinths:

Shindo

2421124212

Artisan Fidelity (single tonearm)

242132421424215

[Wakefield Turntables]

Martin Bastin is still pottering around. To get "SHINDO" you have to go the "whole hog", you'll need the bearing, platter, and tonearm mount and plinth and this will set up back quite a large way into 5 figures. You can buy into this idea for considerably less at https://www.peakhifi.co.uk/ which is basically SHINDO on a budget, marry this with a Russ Collinson solid Cherry plinth and you've probably got 90%+ shindo at about 10% the price. You do the math! Bob Cushworth plinth are based around cat litter (I honestly kid you not)!!!!! You'll probably want to check out Jean Nantais and his ideas on plinth design. If I were you I'd look into the concepts of coupling, decoupling, damping and vibration transmission. You can save a shed load of money and hairline by doing a little research in these areas.

[nickbaba]

Cheers Andrew - btw was the peakhifi.co.uk link pointing to any specific item? It just took me to their generic homepage... I guess perhaps there I can find the bearing, platter upgrades etc... or even a whole upgraded CTC Classic 301, I see...

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nick,

Hi, I added the links just to give you some idea of the products that have been produced. You could also try this https://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/product/brass-platter-20-mm-oversize/ I would suggest you take these products with a pinch of salt You could possibly get the same effects with a bog standard platter installed and then going down the option of a phoenix engineering PSU and tachometer. There's a lot of B$h!t kicking around in the net.

Regards

A

[anubisgrau]

Ah, this idler thing didn't look that much like a rocket science back in the days...

[nickbaba]

yeah, a lot of aftermarket bizniz around the Garrard decks. Thanks for the links. I will do some more research.

[WESTLOWER]

Well as I said I can’t compare but my 401 was nicely fettled to run as silent as can, installed in the heavy Russ Collinson
Plinth and it produces very sweet music indeed. If my TT rumbles I for one cant hear it! I think one can drive themselves bonkers trying to get to the ‘ultimate’ ... I personally think it’s a very musical sounding front end with everything I want from it. All that rumble talk! Na! Not having it.
Come and listen Nick.

[CliveG]

Martin Bastin is still pottering around. To get "SHINDO" you have to go the "whole hog", you'll need the bearing, platter, and tonearm mount and plinth and this will set up back quite a large way into 5 figures. You can buy into this idea for considerably less at https://www.peakhifi.co.uk/ which is basically SHINDO on a budget, marry this with a Russ Collinson solid Cherry plinth and you've probably got 90%+ shindo at about 10% the price. You do the math! Bob Cushworth plinth are based around cat litter (I honestly kid you not)!!!!! You'll probably want to check out Jean Nantais and his ideas on plinth design. If I were you I'd look into the concepts of coupling, decoupling, damping and vibration transmission. You can save a shed load of money and hairline by doing a little research in these areas.
I completely agree, like all high-end hi-fi, the law of diminishing returns means you can get 80-90% of the performance for 10-20% of the cost.
Just to clarify, I was only comparing the performance of the plinth, not the whole TT system. My RC plinth had a cut out to accommodate the oversize Shindo bearing, so was able to mount the Shindo 301 in it with its upgraded platter and bearing for direct comparisons.
You can read all about what really goes into Bob Cusworth's 301 plinths over on the Wam, he kept a prolific blog going when he was developing the design.

[Spectral Morn]

I completely agree, like all high-end hi-fi, the law of diminishing returns means you can get 80-90% of the performance for 10-20% of the cost.
Just to clarify, I was only comparing the performance of the plinth, not the whole TT system. My RC plinth had a cut out to accommodate the oversize Shindo bearing, so was able to mount the Shindo 301 in it with its upgraded platter and bearing for direct comparisons.
You can read all about what really goes into Bob Cusworth's 301 plinths over on the Wam, he kept a prolific blog going when he was developing the design.

Nearly £5000 for a plinth is beyond justification in my opinion. How does it cost so much to make, to end up at a retail price of that.

[WESTLOWER]

I'm now intrigued by the Rumble element thrown into the other hifi worry soup in my life.

I've yet to go looking for Rumble, as I simply cam't hear it in my 401 set up (Heavy layered plinth, Heavy Gun Metal platter mat, Sorbothane based feet system)
although I've just been reading about the Match Box method of testing for Rumble..
Not to confuse Rumble vibration from the Motor into the plinth with audible noise from the Motor (of which I have None!)

Match Box method
In order to check how much “noise” is getting from the motor to the deck chassis/plinth (and subsequently to the stylus):-

1)Take a matchbox (ideally with a few matches in it) and place it on the chassis (NOT on the platter!) next to the platter and within “reach” of the cartridge.
2)Turn the volume control of the amp to minimum. Gently lower the stylus onto the matchbox.
3)Carefully switch the deck on. Slowly increase the volume control. The matchbox acts like a sounding board and amplifies any sound emanating from the deck.


I'll check this method out sometime...
As I said, I haven't noticed anything in the background of the music in quiet passages at higher volume.

BUT, is more fuss made of this rumble issue than really exists??

[Spectral Morn]

I'm now intrigued by the Rumble element thrown into the other hifi worry soup in my life.

I've yet to go looking for Rumble, as I simply cam't hear it in my 401 set up (Heavy layered plinth, Sorbothane based feet system)
although I've just been reading about the Match Box method of testing for Rumble..
Not to confuse Rumble vibration from the Motor into the plinth with audible noise from the Motor (of which I have None!)

Match Box method
In order to check how much “noise” is getting from the motor to the deck chassis/plinth (and subsequently to the stylus):-

1)Take a matchbox (ideally with a few matches in it) and place it on the chassis (NOT on the platter!) next to the platter and within “reach” of the cartridge.
2)Turn the volume control of the amp to minimum. Gently lower the stylus onto the matchbox.
3)Carefully switch the deck on. Slowly increase the volume control. The matchbox acts like a sounding board and amplifies any sound emanating from the deck.


I'll check this method out sometime...
As I said, I haven't noticed anything in the background of the music in quiet passages at higher volume.

BUT, is more fuss made of this rumble issue than really exists??

Its a real thing in a poorly maintained, poorly set up 301/401 and any other vintage idler. If its serviced professionally and in a properly designed, well made plinth then its not an issue imho.

[struth]

I'm now intrigued by the Rumble element thrown into the other hifi worry soup in my life.

I've yet to go looking for Rumble, as I simply cam't hear it in my 401 set up (Heavy layered plinth, Heavy Gun Metal platter mat, Sorbothane based feet system)
although I've just been reading about the Match Box method of testing for Rumble..
Not to confuse Rumble vibration from the Motor into the plinth with audible noise from the Motor (of which I have None!)

Match Box method
In order to check how much “noise” is getting from the motor to the deck chassis/plinth (and subsequently to the stylus):-

1)Take a matchbox (ideally with a few matches in it) and place it on the chassis (NOT on the platter!) next to the platter and within “reach” of the cartridge.
2)Turn the volume control of the amp to minimum. Gently lower the stylus onto the matchbox.
3)Carefully switch the deck on. Slowly increase the volume control. The matchbox acts like a sounding board and amplifies any sound emanating from the deck.


I'll check this method out sometime...
As I said, I haven't noticed anything in the background of the music in quiet passages at higher volume.

BUT, is more fuss made of this rumble issue than really exists??

they have to be audiophile matches tho ;)

[Ali Tait]

Yes agreed. It’s not rocket science to service a Garrard if you’re at all handy, lots of how to’s on the net.

I’m lucky enough to have a NOS 401 tucked away, I’ll get round to fettling it at some point, it’ll need a good service having never been used.

[WESTLOWER]

they have to be audiophile matches tho ;)

Yup £130 a box!

[struth]

Yup £130 a box!

:D

[Dubmart]

I have a 301 fully serviced by Ray at CTC and mounted in a Russ Collinson plinth, no issues with noise and it sounds fantastic, I did tons of reading on the various plinth options, it's very easy to end up going round in circles and be tempted to spend very large sums of money, there may be better plinths than the Layers Of Beauty, but I'm very pleased with my choice and although not cheap it's almost a bargain compared to what some people charge, I have a 401 which will be going the same CTC/LOB route when funds allow.

[WESTLOWER]

I have a 301 fully serviced by Ray at CTC and mounted in a Russ Collinson plinth, no issues with noise and it sounds fantastic, I did tons of reading on the various plinth options, it's very easy to end up going round in circles and be tempted to spend very large sums of money, there may be better plinths than the Layers Of Beauty, but I'm very pleased with my choice and although not cheap it's almost a bargain compared to what some people charge, I have a 401 which will be going the same CTC/LOB route when funds allow.

+1 Martin!

[nickbaba]

Well, after a bit more research it seems there are fundamental differences between the 2 styles of plinth.
The 'Shindo' style in solid cherry is not inert, it has a resonant frequency, but it's a frequency that happens to compliment the Garrards, apparently, giving a warm, rich sound. The AF plinth, with its mix of layered woods and greater mass, dampens vibration more effectively and leads to a cleaner, crisper, perhaps more 'modern' sound.
Just to be clear, I've no intention of spending multiple thousands on either an original Shindo or AF plinth... but I'm researching the 2 styles so that someone can build me something similar when I make my decision.
Agreed that to get the best from a Shindo plinth one should probably go "full Shindo" as I imagine all parts will be tuned together to produce a harmonious synergy. But that's way out of my means. Whatever I end up with will be more of a Franken-table, with motor, tonearm, plinth and possibly upgraded platter/bearing all sourced separately. So I will most likely lose some of that overall synergy. For that reason I'm leaning towards the more inert plinth at this point.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jean Nantais did a load of research in this area and you can also look at how people make acoustic guitars, violins and other stringed instruments to get some idea of why certain woods are choosen. You might want to import some Japanese cherry If your going "shindo" and get a competent wood worker to build you the plinth, cheaper than RC.

[WESTLOWER]

Jean Nantais did a load of research in this area and you can also look at how people make acoustic guitars, violins and other stringed instruments to get some idea of why certain woods are choosen. You might want to import some Japanese cherry If your going "shindo" and get a competent wood worker to build you the plinth, cheaper than RC.

Interesting, You reckon you can import a plinth sized lump of Japanese cherry wood, from Japan, and have a competent wood worker make a plinth for less than £790.00...!?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Interesting, You reckon you can import a plinth sized lump of Japanese cherry wood, from Japan, and have a competent wood worker make a plinth for less than £790.00...!?

Common sense would suggest you source closer to home.

[WESTLOWER]

Common sense would suggest you source closer to home.

errr. Indeed. you suggested it ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep, my bad! I suppose importing Cherry wood from Japan gives you more chance of getting Japanese Cherry wood, but that leaves ( or leafs sorry bad pun) the problem of which Japanese Cherry wood. There are numerous native Japanese Cheery woods from the Prunus family. This introduces the rather sticky subject of trying to guess which Prunus Shindo used when making his plinths. Any copy to be accurate and sound correctly like a Shindo plinth would have to match Shindo's choice of Prunus, otherwise your not properly emulating (or sounding) like a Shindo plinth. I'll stick to my birch ply and not recede my hair line any further worrying about semantics!! ;)

[nickbaba]

So Andrew (Rexton), am I right in thinking you have a birch ply plinth from Moldova, as seen on ebay?
They are certainly a bit of a bargain - have you been happy with yours?

[da2222]

They do look good but unfortunately they don't offer the possibility for a flush/sunken finish for the turntable...


So Andrew (Rexton), am I right in thinking you have a birch ply plinth from Moldova, as seen on ebay?
They are certainly a bit of a bargain - have you been happy with yours?

[montesquieu]

I'm now intrigued by the Rumble element thrown into the other hifi worry soup in my life.

I've yet to go looking for Rumble, as I simply cam't hear it in my 401 set up (Heavy layered plinth, Heavy Gun Metal platter mat, Sorbothane based feet system)
although I've just been reading about the Match Box method of testing for Rumble..
Not to confuse Rumble vibration from the Motor into the plinth with audible noise from the Motor (of which I have None!)

Match Box method
In order to check how much “noise” is getting from the motor to the deck chassis/plinth (and subsequently to the stylus):-

1)Take a matchbox (ideally with a few matches in it) and place it on the chassis (NOT on the platter!) next to the platter and within “reach” of the cartridge.
2)Turn the volume control of the amp to minimum. Gently lower the stylus onto the matchbox.
3)Carefully switch the deck on. Slowly increase the volume control. The matchbox acts like a sounding board and amplifies any sound emanating from the deck.


I'll check this method out sometime...
As I said, I haven't noticed anything in the background of the music in quiet passages at higher volume.

BUT, is more fuss made of this rumble issue than really exists??


I bought one of these, just so I could hear what was going on with the TD124 - not content with hearing nothing through the speakers.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Medi-Inn-Pro-Stethoscope-Double-Headed-EMT-Doctors-Nurses-Vets-Medical-Students/291416528232?epid=1788737418&hash=item43d9c75568:g:hMkAAOSwtfhYtBL7

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/hMkAAOSwtfhYtBL7/s-l500.jpg

Don't laugh it's actually useful, so you can explore if whatever you are doing to reduce noise makes a difference.

My plith is also solid cherry one, again by Russ, with a sapele wood surround to match my speakers. It weighs upwards of 40kg, is huge (600m wide by 450 deep) and sits on Townshend pods. It cost me way less than a grand and works extremely well with the Thorens.

Rumble is not an issue on either my TD124 or on my Garrard 401. Both have been carefully fettled though.



Yep, my bad! I suppose importing Cherry wood from Japan gives you more chance of getting Japanese Cherry wood, but that leaves ( or leafs sorry bad pun) the problem of which Japanese Cherry wood. There are numerous native Japanese Cheery woods from the Prunus family. This introduces the rather sticky subject of trying to guess which Prunus Shindo used when making his plinths. Any copy to be accurate and sound correctly like a Shindo plinth would have to match Shindo's choice of Prunus, otherwise your not properly emulating (or sounding) like a Shindo plinth. I'll stick to my birch ply and not recede my hair line any further worrying about semantics!! ;)


Almost heading for a spot in Private Eye there ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/GcbTv9U.jpg

[Vrajbasi]

I have been playing around with the 301 and 401 for years I wont bore with the one that actually sounds better, the plinth is so so important and tried so many from slate to all sorts of wood etc, also had a Shindo turntable and various collinson plinths also the Bastin max plinth thingy. For me if on a budget sound for pound it has to be the bastin sadly takes him ages and well as far as looks not the best, a bit boring one could say. The Bastin out classes the the Colinson plinths in my opinion it adds more weight to the sound with a much more open midrange I love the look of the Colinson plinths but as far as sounds can be a bit lifeless Bastin is a cleaver chappy for sure and so he should be been doing it a long time. I owned the shindo and the artisan at the same time with there own units and found the artisan had more drive and scale but the shindo got my toes tapping. I swapped plinths and the shindo does have something. Two years ago I purchased a RJC full walnut plinth from my dealer with a audio grail motor unit it was magical even with standard bearing etc it to my ears out classed the shindo again depends what you like the rjc/audiograil kind of dissapears like gostly silences can also sound dead sometime but its not it just is getting rid of so much grain its uncanny. While the shindo and artisan are adding something the RJC cutsworth can sound like there is some bass loss but its not its just not adding any extra bloat of color its weird all of a sudden it can roar and be gentle depending on the recording. There is more though the type of wood used in the custsworh does make a difference I tried anouther wood I borrowed a spalted beach one which the same signature is there you could still identify differences. I found both woods do the same in the not adding much and brings the best out of the 301 but the walnut seemed calmer sounding delicate while the spalted sounded kind of more powerful but in the same gostly way weird I know.

There is more to this later on my dealer made a special bracket for the position of the RJC plinth he had it made out of brass and then had a pillar made holing the brass out of various different materials many different discs made the pillar. This took things further I thought mounting the arm this way made it sound even quieter and just more open funny enough. The material used for the arm board makes a huge difference you could drive yourself potty. I ended up having two arms on the RJC one in the normal position one on the back.

I miss my 301 days as I got rid of the 301 to persue other avenues, for me the Bob Cutsworth makes the best plinth for the 301 period I have heard a BBC 301 RD5 in a spalted beach 301 and its magical quite a rare combo I actually borrowed that for a weekend. I just heard recently that RJC wont be making plinths any more which is sad I think it was a real bargain way too cheap when I consider the money I wasted on the others. On a budget and for something a bit plain looking the Bastin is wonderful he really knows his stuff thinking of performance first his prices are great and not only gets the job done but done well.

I still have the shindo 301 but its packed away I will sell it some day soon.

[Spectral Morn]

And how does one contact Martin Bastin ?

[montesquieu]

... I love the look of the Colinson plinths but as far as sounds can be a bit lifeless ...

Calling utter bollocks on this. As I'm sure anyone who had heard mine (or indeed Adam's) could testify.

Not a fan of the 301 in any case. Dull and lifeless for the most part compared to the 401 or my favourite, the TD124 (suitably Schoppered).

[nutteronthebus]

Hi there is a chap in Manchester called Carl who has a site on facebook called Plinthology24234


this is his page https://www.facebook.com/237286167113442/photos/pcb.257844738390918/257844061724319/?type=3&theater

[Wakefield Turntables]

So Andrew (Rexton), am I right in thinking you have a birch ply plinth from Moldova, as seen on ebay?
They are certainly a bit of a bargain - have you been happy with yours?

Yes very happy. I've had it for several years now. I may be tempted to try one from a ebayer over in Hungary.


I have been playing around with the 301 and 401 for years I wont bore with the one that actually sounds better, the plinth is so so important and tried so many from slate to all sorts of wood etc, also had a Shindo turntable and various collinson plinths also the Bastin max plinth thingy. For me if on a budget sound for pound it has to be the bastin sadly takes him ages and well as far as looks not the best, a bit boring one could say. The Bastin out classes the the Colinson plinths in my opinion it adds more weight to the sound with a much more open midrange I love the look of the Colinson plinths but as far as sounds can be a bit lifeless Bastin is a cleaver chappy for sure and so he should be been doing it a long time. I owned the shindo and the artisan at the same time with there own units and found the artisan had more drive and scale but the shindo got my toes tapping. I swapped plinths and the shindo does have something. Two years ago I purchased a RJC full walnut plinth from my dealer with a audio grail motor unit it was magical even with standard bearing etc it to my ears out classed the shindo again depends what you like the rjc/audiograil kind of dissapears like gostly silences can also sound dead sometime but its not it just is getting rid of so much grain its uncanny. While the shindo and artisan are adding something the RJC cutsworth can sound like there is some bass loss but its not its just not adding any extra bloat of color its weird all of a sudden it can roar and be gentle depending on the recording. There is more though the type of wood used in the custsworh does make a difference I tried anouther wood I borrowed a spalted beach one which the same signature is there you could still identify differences. I found both woods do the same in the not adding much and brings the best out of the 301 but the walnut seemed calmer sounding delicate while the spalted sounded kind of more powerful but in the same gostly way weird I know.

There is more to this later on my dealer made a special bracket for the position of the RJC plinth he had it made out of brass and then had a pillar made holing the brass out of various different materials many different discs made the pillar. This took things further I thought mounting the arm this way made it sound even quieter and just more open funny enough. The material used for the arm board makes a huge difference you could drive yourself potty. I ended up having two arms on the RJC one in the normal position one on the back.

I miss my 301 days as I got rid of the 301 to persue other avenues, for me the Bob Cutsworth makes the best plinth for the 301 period I have heard a BBC 301 RD5 in a spalted beach 301 and its magical quite a rare combo I actually borrowed that for a weekend. I just heard recently that RJC wont be making plinths any more which is sad I think it was a real bargain way too cheap when I consider the money I wasted on the others. On a budget and for something a bit plain looking the Bastin is wonderful he really knows his stuff thinking of performance first his prices are great and not only gets the job done but done well.

I still have the shindo 301 but its packed away I will sell it some day soon.

Interesting post. You've got a lot of very desirable kit. Most of us cant afford what you've discussed so I think the vast majority of stuff we discuss is based around people that offer products we can afford. It's all subjective anyway .


And how does one contact Martin Bastin ?

He's on the dog and bone.


Calling utter bollocks on this. As I'm sure anyone who had heard mine (or indeed Adam's) could testify.

Not a fan of the 301 in any case. Dull and lifeless for the most part compared to the 401 or my favourite, the TD124 (suitably Schoppered).

I don't think it's utter bollocks Tom as we all have our own opinions.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi there is a chap in Manchester called Carl who has a site on facebook called Plinthology24234


this is his page https://www.facebook.com/237286167113442/photos/pcb.257844738390918/257844061724319/?type=3&theater

Got one for my Lenco 75. Very good.

[montesquieu]

I don't think it's utter bollocks Tom as we all have our own opinions.

My plinth was discussed extensively with Russ before construction and is a one-off design (though he's done three for me previously with different Garrard and Lenco motor units).. I don't see how you can write off all of a guy's work in this way. It is, indeed, utter bollocks.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I don't see how you can write off all of a guy's work in this way.

Any evidence to support this comment?

[montesquieu]

Any evidence to support this comment?

Eh?

[nickbaba]

Not to speak for him but I think Tom was defending RC's work, not disparaging it. The evidence being that he's happy with his RC plinth, as stated in this thread.

[alphaGT]

If you can find exactly how it’s made, go to a local cabinet shop and have them make one, a few hundred bucks at best. Just don’t let them see the prices on the others.

Russell

[Barry]

Not to speak for him but I think Tom was defending RC's work, not disparaging it. The evidence being that he's happy with his RC plinth, as stated in this thread.

That was how I read it - in reply to Vrajbasi's comments.

[Vrajbasi]

Calling utter bollocks on this. As I'm sure anyone who had heard mine (or indeed Adam's) could testify.

Not a fan of the 301 in any case. Dull and lifeless for the most part compared to the 401 or my favourite, the TD124 (suitably Schoppered).

This is my opinion after spending my hard earned cash to find out and wasting a fair bit too.

I love the build quality of his plinths they are stunning. obviously I dont know how they work with a 124 so I cant comment, I value your opinion I am sure it sounds great. Russ offers excellent value for money and are a bargain for what they are. I have owned a Schoppered 124 its a nice deck for sure. Not my favourite deck neither is the 301 or 401 but I respect all of them in what they do. And would never slag anyone off for owning any deck hifi is just a bit off fun end of the day.

Thats why I own more than one deck I dont think any off my decks satisfy me in all areas they all have there strengths and weaknesses. The Micro Seiki 8000 is giving most of what I want for now until I get fed up off it.

The only deck for me that does it all for my taste I have to add is the Rockport system 111 but too complex and I dont want a compressor and impossible to find.

[A.Grail]

It may be important to note that Cherry trees are revered in Japan. The shindo plinths I have had were very nice but the 'magic' in many ways is in the high mass arm pod....I say this having compared directly with a solid cherry Russ Collinson plinth. The RJC Cusworth plinth is in a very different league. I say this based on the bespoke nature of book matched woods, the inert resin pods for motor detachment and arm pod isolation along with the arm pod itself. Each plinth takes over 200 hours to complete. I don't imagine a highly skilled tax paying master cabinet maker charges less than £20 per hour (This of course does not include metal work or materials...)

Also important to note the Peek Hifi platters are very nice but in no way the same as the Shindo in design, size weight or performance.

[montesquieu]

It may be important to note that Cherry trees are revered in Japan. The shindo plinths I have had were very nice but the 'magic' in many ways is in the high mass arm pod....I say this having compared directly with a solid cherry Russ Collinson plinth. The RJC Cusworth plinth is in a very different league. I say this based on the bespoke nature of book matched woods, the inert resin pods for motor detachment and arm pod isolation along with the arm pod itself. Each plinth takes over 200 hours to complete. I don't imagine a highly skilled tax paying master cabinet maker charges less than £20 per hour (This of course does not include metal work or materials...)

Also important to note the Peek Hifi platters are very nice but in no way the same as the Shindo in design, size weight or performance.

Not clear how this applies to TD124?

[A.Grail]

My remarks were concerning Garrards

[da2222]

Hi Matt

I'd appreciate your opinions on either of these offerings for a 401:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-4...UAAOSwrR5bm318

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-4...gAAOSwD5Za6ejS


My remarks were concerning Garrards

[Vrajbasi]

Not clear how this applies to TD124?

You could always ask RJC to build a plinth for the 124 and compare the two it could be seriously interesting I suspect.

[WESTLOWER]

Hi Matt

I'd appreciate your opinions on either of these offerings for a 401:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-4...UAAOSwrR5bm318

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-4...gAAOSwD5Za6ejS

Links are dead for me.., what do they point to?

[da2222]

Apologies. these should work:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-9-Piano-OAK-Plinth-Zarge-without-turntable-tonearm/183433209071?hash=item2ab578a4ef:g:1~UAAOSwrR5bm31 8

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-9-Piano-Black-Plinth-Zarge-without-turntable-tonearm/183405476332?hash=item2ab3d179ec:g:u8gAAOSwD5Za6ej S

Links are dead for me.., what do they point to?

[A.Grail]

Hi Matt

I'd appreciate your opinions on either of these offerings for a 401:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-4...UAAOSwrR5bm318

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-4...gAAOSwD5Za6ejS

The links don't seem to be working?

[da2222]

Hi Matt

The links immediately prior to your last post still work...



Quote
The links don't seem to be working?

[A.Grail]

Ah yes, unfortunately I don't have any first hand experience with the maker or their plinths.

[Spectral Morn]

Apologies. these should work:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-9-Piano-OAK-Plinth-Zarge-without-turntable-tonearm/183433209071?hash=item2ab578a4ef:g:1~UAAOSwrR5bm31 8

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-9-Piano-Black-Plinth-Zarge-without-turntable-tonearm/183405476332?hash=item2ab3d179ec:g:u8gAAOSwD5Za6ej S

I am curious as well.

[WESTLOWER]

Apologies. these should work:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-9-Piano-OAK-Plinth-Zarge-without-turntable-tonearm/183433209071?hash=item2ab578a4ef:g:1~UAAOSwrR5bm31 8

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GARRARD-401-9-Piano-Black-Plinth-Zarge-without-turntable-tonearm/183405476332?hash=item2ab3d179ec:g:u8gAAOSwD5Za6ej S

I believe Tom (montesquieu) has the gloss black jobbie in his second system with a 401
I’m sure he will be along in due course with his view.. in the flesh they look nice.

[Spectral Morn]

So I spoke with Das Pinth and he did not recommend any of his plinths for use with an SME 5. English isn't his first language so it was a stilted conversation. I have no idea why the 5 isn't suitable. Must say I feel a little down about that as I was thinking about giving one ago :( He also won't cut any extra arm boards for other arms, only supply un cut blanks. That alone for me is an issue as I don't have the ability to cut arm boards.

[Beobloke]

So I spoke with Das Pinth and he did not recommend any of his plinths for use with an SME 5.

That's a peculiar thing for him to say. If the plinth can be cut with a 9" SME mount, then it'll work with a V. There's no magic to it!

[Spectral Morn]

That's a peculiar thing for him to say. If the plinth can be cut with a 9" SME mount, then it'll work with a V. There's no magic to it!

Exactly what I thought Adam. I replied to him by checking that and he repeated it. I am at a loss.

[Vrajbasi]

Exactly what I thought Adam. I replied to him by checking that and he repeated it. I am at a loss.

Ridiculous maybe like some he just does like one of the most sold and sought after, successful hi end tonearms in the world a tonearm designed by Alistair Robertson Aikman who by hifi standards could be described as a modern day genius.

[Spectral Morn]

Ridiculous maybe like some he just does like one of the most sold and sought after, successful hi end tonearms in the world a tonearm designed by Alistair Robertson Aikman who by hifi standards could be described as a modern day genius.

I have no idea. I asked about other tonearms I have, Graham 2.2 and Triplannar regarding if they would suit and if he would cut the spare arm boards for them. He said he does not cut the armboards. It was a very unsatisfactory exchange, made worse by him perhaps using google translate.

So I really don't know what to make of it all, except I won't be buying a Das Plinth.

[Riislingen]

Sounds like Das Plinth is merely a reseller sourcing from 3rd parties somewhere.

His answers and apprehension to do custom work, along with the 3 weeks lead time suggests he is just moving the product at margin via Ebay. He does not want any hassle in doing so.

At that price, I think it may have been made in China or perhaps Eastern Europe.

[Vrajbasi]

The Web site shows a few pics with sme 3009 arms so mounting a series v should be a doddle, if I wanted one of those the armboard issue would not put me off in any case even if he just provided a blank. I might be buying a RJC plinth for my shindo 301 as I have been offered one today that would be interesting.

[Spectral Morn]

The Web site shows a few pics with sme 3009 arms so mounting a series v should be a doddle, if I wanted one of those the armboard issue would not put me off in any case even if he just provided a blank. I might be buying a RJC plinth for my shindo 301 as I have been offered one today that would be interesting.

I know, and he says he will supply with a SME cut for those, so why not a 5? Anyway the doubt puts me off, so I suspect if I decide to try another type of plinth (more for the visuals) it will be a Layers of Beauty one. In saying that having listened to my AMG last night I was wondering why I have any other turntables, as its frankly vastly ahead of all of them.

[Barry]

I know, and he says he will supply with a SME cut for those, so why not a 5? Anyway the doubt puts me off, so I suspect if I decide to try another type of plinth (more for the visuals) it will be a Layers of Beauty one. In saying that having listened to my AMG last night I was wondering why I have any other turntables, as its frankly vastly ahead of all of them.

Surely the cut out and position of the bedplate fixings is the same for all SME arms?

[Spectral Morn]

Surely the cut out and position of the bedplate fixings is the same for all SME arms?

Well I have noticed that being mounted at an angle seems common for 309 to 5 but re the old ones not always sometimes just straight on the plinth, but yes I thought the basic mounting the same.

[Barry]

Well I have noticed that being mounted at an angle seems common for 309 to 5 but re the old ones not always sometimes just straight on the plinth, but yes I thought the basic mounting the same.

The important dimension is the distance between the platter spigot and the centre of the arm base cut-out. If the slot lays on a radius, then the full compass of overhang adjustment will be available (that is: +/-12.7mm). If the slot lays parallel to the edge of the plinth ("straight on" as you put it), the adjustment range will be less (by a factor given by the cosine of the angle between the radius and the line of the slot).

[CliveG]

Could it because the tonearm cable on SME arms has a horizontal exit compared to vertical on most arms? This would require a different cable entry arrangement on the plinth.

[Spectral Morn]

Could it because the tonearm cable on SME arms has a horizontal exit compared to vertical on most arms? This would require a different cable entry arrangement on the plinth.

Except he offers one of the arm boards as SME cut, others blank which they won't cut, buyer must. I really don't know. They told me it wasn't suitable for an SME5 tonearm.

[Vrajbasi]

I have had lots of plinths for the 301 and 401 over the years from so many materials slate, granite ply hard woods and so on. If I were budget restrained I would try and get hold of the Bastin Plinth and have it finished myself as its a superb sounding plinth and the fact he isolates the motor is superb. If I had more to spend than the best I have heard is the RJC custworth plinth without and doubt. I only speak after owning and living with so many plinths. I have not heard a Das plinth so can't speak on that particular plinth. I owned a RJC plinth previously and stupidly sold it, I was offered one yesterday and went to see it am tempted to month my shindo 301 in it.

[Spectral Morn]

I have had lots of plinths for the 301 and 401 over the years from so many materials slate, granite ply hard woods and so on. If I were budget restrained I would try and get hold of the Bastin Plinth and have it finished myself as its a superb sounding plinth and the fact he isolates the motor is superb. If I had more to spend than the best I have heard is the RJC custworth plinth without and doubt. I only speak after owning and living with so many plinths. I have not heard a Das plinth so can't speak on that particular plinth. I owned a RJC plinth previously and stupidly sold it, I was offered one yesterday and went to see it am tempted to month my shindo 301 in it.

I think the price of the RJC plinth is obscene, even if I could afford one I would not buy one. Martin Bastin being honest no web site, not easy to get hold of puts me off. I have no doubt based on reputation his plinths are good, but I like to see what I am going to get, not some mystery item, and see the price options. Also the number of horror stories on here regarding similar operations, sorry not taking the risk.

I would just like to try a different plinth to see what its like, but I am not going to go crazy money over it.

If someone has a nice plinth they are thinking of moving on, for a 401 and will suit a 9 inch SME 5 pm me and lets talk.

[Vrajbasi]

I think the price of the RJC plinth is obscene, even if I could afford one I would not buy one. Martin Bastin being honest no web site, not easy to get hold of puts me off. I have no doubt based on reputation his plinths are good, but I like to see what I am going to get, not some mystery item, and see the price options. Also the number of horror stories on here regarding similar operations, sorry not taking the risk.

I would just like to try a different plinth to see what its like, but I am not going to go crazy money over it.

If someone has a nice plinth they are thinking of moving on, for a 401 and will suit a 9 inch SME 5 pm me and lets talk.

I understand your point my comments are only based on performance, I find alot of plinths for the garrards dont it it any justice and yes martin bastin has no website but is a true honest gentleman I have had two plinths from him and his service is excellent even though it takes a while. The RJC plinth is very expensive but having spent serious dosh over the years on this hobby to my eyes and ears is a true audio bargain it takes him months to hand craft a plinth his attention to detail can be only described as first class and puts all others including artisan to shame. He uses extensive damping of resin and various other materials to damp things and the motor like the bastin is fully isolated but thats things further as the motor has its own chamber so to speak and is mounted on a huge stainless steel structure this alone would cost a fortune to machine then the arm is totally isolated again in its own chamber. All this is costly to impliment.

The fit and finish compares to what you would find in a rolls royce and the best boats etc. And as far as sound goes the I remember my audio grail 301 and RJC plinth putting my shindo 301 to shame so for what you get its a bargain. I know its hard with hifi these days as the prices are for some products crazy with turntables at over £100000 and the likes but at least there are a few manufactures who offer a few great buys where they are not applying the normal multiples of 6 to 10 times to achieve a retail price.

[Spectral Morn]

I understand your point my comments are only based on performance, I find alot of plinths for the garrards dont it it any justice and yes martin bastin has no website but is a true honest gentleman I have had two plinths from him and his service is excellent even though it takes a while. The RJC plinth is very expensive but having spent serious dosh over the years on this hobby to my eyes and ears is a true audio bargain it takes him months to hand craft a plinth his attention to detail can be only described as first class and puts all others including artisan to shame. He uses extensive damping of resin and various other materials to damp things and the motor like the bastin is fully isolated but thats things further as the motor has its own chamber so to speak and is mounted on a huge stainless steel structure this alone would cost a fortune to machine then the arm is totally isolated again in its own chamber. All this is costly to impliment.

The fit and finish compares to what you would find in a rolls royce and the best boats etc. And as far as sound goes the I remember my audio grail 301 and RJC plinth putting my shindo 301 to shame so for what you get its a bargain. I know its hard with hifi these days as the prices are for some products crazy with turntables at over £100000 and the likes but at least there are a few manufactures who offer a few great buys where they are not applying the normal multiples of 6 to 10 times to achieve a retail price.

Hi Nari

I appreciate what you are saying but, I do not know how anyone can justify £5000 for a plinth made from resin and wood, and yes I see prices start from £1800 but even that to me seems a very high price.

[CliveG]

The fit and finish compares to what you would find in a rolls royce and the best boats etc. And as far as sound goes the I remember my audio grail 301 and RJC plinth putting my shindo 301 to shame so for what you get its a bargain. times to
My experience exactly. I sold my Shindo after getting the RJC/Audio Grail combo. It's also relatively better value for money. The RJC/Grail with a top cartridge and arm would cost about one third the cost of the Shindo system.

[Spectral Morn]

My experience exactly. I sold my Shindo after getting the RJC/Audio Grail combo. It's also relatively better value for money. The RJC/Grail with a top cartridge and arm would cost about one third the cost of the Shindo system.

I think Audio Grail, what they do, pretty much justify's the prices of their restored Garrards, but despite the RJC plinths looking very nice I don't see the money in them. Maybe if someone can provide imagery of what it is that makes you guys think these are worth the money I might be convinced but so far despite doing a search I can't see £5000 in any of the plinths I have looked at.

[keith1962]

Neil,
Take a look over on Audio Abattoir at the thread Tales from the Ginnel or on the Wam, sorry don't know the thread name but a search for RJC or Cusworth plinth will get you there. He might even have a thread here in the trade section, sorry I haven't looked.
He details his latest builds in those threads and you see the quality of the craftsmanship. These are a step above the names you are looking at. They are hand crafted pieces of bespoke furniture with exotic woods, properly seasoned and aged with proper jointing and inlays and a beautiful furniture standard finish which also just happen to be at the top of their game as far as intended function is concerned.
I would love one for my 401 and I am very jealous that Nari has found a second hand one. I built my own out of Baltic bit h ply with isolated arm pod for SME (actually Groovemaster2 on SME mount) and would take you up on your offer regarding a deal for it except it is for 12" arm. Might be able to modify if you are interested.
But really, take a look at the RJC and see what goes into the construction and try to see one in the flesh. They are the best solution for these types of deck and should not be confused with the plinth produced from layers of birch ply. Mine is the same construction as the latter and cost well below £100 in materials.
Regards,
Keith.

[Vrajbasi]

My experience exactly. I sold my Shindo after getting the RJC/Audio Grail combo. It's also relatively better value for money. The RJC/Grail with a top cartridge and arm would cost about one third the cost of the Shindo system.

Did you ever try your Shindo Garrard in the RJC plinth I have heard the owner of Audio Grail Matt uses a Shindo platter and bearing on his personal 301 in a RJC plinth.

[Vrajbasi]

Neil,
Take a look over on Audio Abattoir at the thread Tales from the Ginnel or on the Dam, sorry don't know the thread name but a search for RJC or Cusworth plinth will get you there. He might even have a thread here in the trade section, sorry I haven't looked.
He details his latest builds in those threads and you see the quality of the craftsmanship. These are a step above the names you are looking at. They are hand crafted pieces of bespoke furniture with exotic woods, properly seasoned and aged with proper mounting and inlays and a beautiful furniture standard finish which also just happen to be at the top of their game as far as intended function is concerned.
I would love one for my 401 and I am very jealous that Mark has found a second hand one. I built my own out of Baltic bit h ply with isolated arm pod for SME (actually Groovemaster2 on SME mount) and would take you up on your offer regarding a deal for it except it is for 12" arm. Might be able to modify if you are interested.
But really, Take a look at the RJC and see what goes into the try to see one I the flesh. They are the best suction for these types of deck and should not be confused with the plinth produced from layers of birch ply. Mine is the same construction and cost well below £100 in materials.
Regards,
Keith.

The one I have been offered is actually brand new the dealer got it on saturday I went to see it just thinking about it the problem is I am not that keen on garrards these days but still have a little soft spot and of all the garrards I have owned the best was the RJC audio grail 301 combo my second fav was the bastin plinth with a 401. I did not get on with the collinson plinth for sound at all, maybe it was just me it sounded good in isolation without comparing but do like the appearance of the collinson plinth they are nicely finished for sure.

I would like to hear a 401 in a RJC plinth never had the opportunity as of yet I do not think he has made many .

[Spectral Morn]

Neil,
Take a look over on Audio Abattoir at the thread Tales from the Ginnel or on the Wam, sorry don't know the thread name but a search for RJC or Cusworth plinth will get you there. He might even have a thread here in the trade section, sorry I haven't looked.
He details his latest builds in those threads and you see the quality of the craftsmanship. These are a step above the names you are looking at. They are hand crafted pieces of bespoke furniture with exotic woods, properly seasoned and aged with proper jointing and inlays and a beautiful furniture standard finish which also just happen to be at the top of their game as far as intended function is concerned.
I would love one for my 401 and I am very jealous that Nari has found a second hand one. I built my own out of Baltic bit h ply with isolated arm pod for SME (actually Groovemaster2 on SME mount) and would take you up on your offer regarding a deal for it except it is for 12" arm. Might be able to modify if you are interested.
But really, take a look at the RJC and see what goes into the construction and try to see one in the flesh. They are the best solution for these types of deck and should not be confused with the plinth produced from layers of birch ply. Mine is the same construction as the latter and cost well below £100 in materials.
Regards,
Keith.

Hello Keith

Thank you for that, just took a look and I can see now what has been talked about.

Sure Keith, I am interested in trying something different so feel free to email me some pictures and we can talk about it.

[CliveG]

Did you ever try your Shindo Garrard in the RJC plinth I have heard the owner of Audio Grail Matt uses a Shindo platter and bearing on his personal 301 in a RJC plinth.
Yes, I did try it myself and it sounded very good indeed, although surprisingly, the component that made the biggest difference to my ears when mounted on the RJC/AGrail was the Shindo SPU cartridge. Whilst I am always looking out for a Shindo bearing and platter for sale, the SPU is what I would really like to find.

[Vrajbasi]

Yes, I did try it myself and it sounded very good indeed, although surprisingly, the component that made the biggest difference to my ears when mounted on the RJC/AGrail was the Shindo SPU cartridge. Whilst I am always looking out for a Shindo bearing and platter for sale, the SPU is what I would really like to find.

Yes it is very good indeed I actually have three shindo spu cartridges one is currently mounted on a FR66 on my Micro Seiki 8000 mk2 one on the Shindo Garrard and the other one is unused. I should have kept my Audio Grail 301 RJC Combo I owned it with a rather special build sme 3012r. I prefer other decks to the 301 overall but have a soft spot as far as Vintage decks go the EMT 927 and the Micro Seiki 8000 pip it by quite a margin

[WESTLOWER]

I prefer other decks to the 301 overall but have a soft spot as far as Vintage decks go the EMT 927 and the Micro Seiki 8000 pip it by quite a margin
I should hope so, given the price differential.

[Vrajbasi]

I should hope so, given the price differential.

The Shindo 301 is around 22k so not cheap either thats why I feel the RJC audio grail combo is a steal and to my ears offers best value when trying to create and ultimate garrard combination. I have heard and owned many decks that dont do it for me I owned a tech das air force one and had a air force one premium at home which costs six figures I preferred the 927 and the Micoseiki by quite a margin so spending loads does not relate into musical enjoyment. I love the garrads but they do need a lot of care and attention isolation is vital I found an active air suspension works best but these are expensive and impractical for many.