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View Full Version : LP clamp shootout! - on a Techie 1210



jandl100
11-04-2010, 07:21
... and in the shiny, pure aluminium corner, we have Hamish's LP clamp - kindly loaned to me while his tt is off galavantin' (350g-ish)

... and in the cool black & strobed corner, we have my cheapo clamp off eBay (250g-ish) with rubber base

... and in the rubber fetish corner :eek: we have the original Revolver Pig (negligible g), which works by gripping the spindle and pushing down on the LP

... and in the 4th corner ... nowt! - we have an absence of clamp. :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF5558.jpg

This contest was performed on a standard SL-1210 with a Herbie Mat and 3 RDC1 cones onto a glass shelf, itself atop 3 aluminium cones on a concrete slab (courtesy of B&Q). A Dynavector DV17D3 fed into a Loricraft (Garrard) Missing Link phonostage - into an AVI Lab Series LSI integrated (300wpc into 4 ohms) and and thence to my Infinity RS2.5 ribbon hybrid speakers (see avatar).

Playing a single LP - Tchaikovsky symphony #6 as conducted by the excellent Fritz Reiner and his Chicago Symphony Orchestra on a good condition RCA LP. (These 1960's RCAs are not far off legendary as far as sound quality goes).
Yeah, I know that most of you futzes aren't classical fans, but this music has everything from delicate solo flute up to 120 musicians going hell for leather and giving their all, including a very enthusiastic brass section. :wow:

Sound quality differences seemed to focus on ... err ... image focus, solidity and definition, and also overall dynamic slam & speed.

Surprisingly, there was a pretty obvious hierarchy with no clamp being at the bottom.
My lovely shiny rubber bottomed strobed clamp improved things a fair amount, but it was pretty clear that Hamish's aluminium jobbie was doing an even better job. Images were, to my slight dismay, obviously better focussed and palpable. :( Damn - I'd hoped my clamp would win out.

In quiet desperation I had a think - aha, I still had that rubber fetish job from my old Revolver tt .... after a quick rummage in my spares drawer, out it came. And the Revolver Pig is The WINNER!! :youtheman: ... the difference wasn't as large as between my black clamp and Hamish's aluminium job, but it was still pretty damn clear that the grippy rubber did an even better job. That was a surprise.

Obviously, I don't have any posh / expensive clamps here, but it does seem clear that clamps do differ in their effect and that it is worth experimenting to see what works best on your deck! :)

The Grand Wazoo
11-04-2010, 09:37
Interesting Jerry.
You mention the things that the changes seemed to affect most. Did the PIG restrict itself to those things alone too?

Hark! What's that noise I hear?
Ah yes 'tis the tuneful music of the frantic box & drawer rummage orchestra accompanied by the mouse click chorus sounding out all across this Fair Land.
Soon the orchestra will be joined by the two soloists 'supply' and 'demand'.

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 09:44
:) happy days, so I wasn't ... What was it you called me ??? I think you just said "wrong" ... ;)
I'm glad you had some success with it buddy...and indeed more succes with something that is yours! Do you think that your rubber fettish jobby applys more presure, and works better for it? I'm interested in the why's of what these things do so I can hopefully be more successful when my table returns - I'm a little worried about the return of my tt to be honest, I'm trying to draw some conclusions as why certain feet and certain clamps etc work with different methods of supporting the thing .. Whilst there does seem to be corelation between peoples findings ... There seems to be greater succes with with more solid foundation ... Not wibbly wobbly as I have got with my quadraspire...
Maybe it's karma for going against hannah's desire to get a stand that looked pretty ... I guess I can only wait an see!!

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 09:44
:) happy days, so I wasn't ... What was it you called me ??? I think you just said "wrong" ... ;)
I'm glad you had some success with it buddy...and indeed more succes with something that is yours! Do you think that your rubber fettish jobby applys more presure, and works better for it? I'm interested in the why's of what these things do so I can hopefully be more successful when my table returns - I'm a little worried about the return of my tt to be honest, I'm trying to draw some conclusions as why certain feet and certain clamps etc work with different methods of supporting the thing .. Whilst there does seem to be corelation between peoples findings ... There seems to be greater succes with with more solid foundation ... Not wibbly wobbly as I have got with my quadraspire...
Maybe it's karma for going against hannah's desire to get a stand that looked pretty ... I guess I can only wait an see!!

MartinT
11-04-2010, 09:50
I'm a little worried about the return of my tt to be honest

Hamish, I'm looking to go down to Dave's in Dartmouth on Tuesday 13th. He'll have your Jelco then and should be able to wrap your deck up pretty quickly.

No chance of your coming down on Tuesday too?

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 10:11
good news indeed, that times quite well as my blingy blue top bit is due to be completed tomorow!

Hmm very tempting, yes, I would say there is a reasonable chance! Finances are horribly tight... Where would I need to catch a train to, and il look into costs and timings!

Themis
11-04-2010, 10:15
Nice contest Jerry ! Very enjoyable to read. :)

The original Revolver Pig is not on sale anymore, is it ? :scratch:

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 10:20
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/LondonHI-FIShowMarch27th28th2010141.jpg

Totnes is a main line station and is 25 minutes away, and on the way for Martin! Or bristol even??

Regards

Dave

MartinT
11-04-2010, 11:03
I could easily pick you up from Paignton (via Bristol and Exeter for you) or Totnes as Dave recommends. I'll be driving from Basingstoke so it's on my way.

DSJR
11-04-2010, 11:22
The Pig kindly donated to me isn't hugely grippy (possibly old age and the 701's spindle isn't very long) but does seem to help on dished records, stopping the record centre being decoupled from the mat. I also have an extra soft disc in the centre well...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0346smaller-1.jpg

DSJR
11-04-2010, 11:22
The Pig kindly donated to me isn't hugely grippy (possibly old age and the 701's spindle isn't very long) but does seem to help on dished records, stopping the record centre being decoupled from the mat. I also have an extra soft disc in the centre well...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0346smaller-1.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 11:26
Coolio! I walk hannah to the bus stop in the mornings which is by the train station, her bus is at 6.43 and there is a train 6.47 ariving at totnes at 10.08 ... Does that work well for you two? Too early? (asuming you are ok with me coming down dave?)

MartinT
11-04-2010, 11:31
Hamish - Totnes at 10:08 is fine for me. Google Maps says my journey is 3h 20m so if I leave just before 7am it should work well.

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 11:51
Excelent, it seems we have a plan (this is fine with you dave?)
my only limitation is possibly financial... Il look into it tomorrow!

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 11:58
http://www.dartmouth.tv/cats/images/rebel/IMG_5167.jpg

Yes, all OK for me. Our big cat has trashed my beryllium tweeters though, both of them!

Dave

chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 12:06
He looks like butter wouldn't melt;)

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 12:21
http://www.dartmouth.tv/cats/images/rebel/6weeks.jpg

As a kitten

Yes, 800 of butter!

Dave

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 12:26
Cute!!!
My mates cat just had kittens, they are just opening thier eyes ... Little balls of fluff, they look like little gremlins!

Themis
11-04-2010, 12:33
Our big cat has trashed my beryllium tweeters though, both of them!

Dave

:doh: :(

Mr. C
11-04-2010, 13:12
I am stunned Dave, both of the tweeters on a pair of 1038's, thats some going, even by sugar rush under 5's standards! as the tweeter height on those Focals is not easy to get to.
How did this happen?, I am genuinely curious, was the cat on speed?, taking flying lessons from the Red Baron, auditioning for Tom & Jerry the movie?
The new Be tweeters are not inexpensive, and I do feel for your loss it is just the fact both were trashed.
Can you post some pictures, sure the claws would have left some interesting marks in the metal tweeter facia plate, let alone the veneer.

Mr. C
11-04-2010, 13:12
I am stunned Dave, both of the tweeters on a pair of 1038's, thats some going, even by sugar rush under 5's standards! as the tweeter height on those Focals is not easy to get to.
How did this happen?, I am genuinely curious, was the cat on speed?, taking flying lessons from the Red Baron, auditioning for Tom & Jerry the movie?
The new Be tweeters are not inexpensive, and I do feel for your loss it is just the fact both were trashed.
Can you post some pictures, sure the claws would have left some interesting marks in the metal tweeter facia plate, let alone the veneer.

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 13:28
http://www.soundhifi.com/FOURUMIMAGES/be1.jpg

http://www.dartmouth.tv/cats/images/Tonto/tonto-oct-2006.jpg

Maine Coons are very, very big! This a small one!

Regards

Dave

REM
11-04-2010, 14:22
http://www.dartmouth.tv/cats/images/rebel/IMG_5167.jpg


Dave

He did it with them laser beam eyes:stalks:

chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 14:38
Dave '

I will do my best to plug the 309 for ya ! but after this er well perhaps you need to sell a few V's:)

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 15:13
http://www.dartmouth.tv/cats/images/rebel/slip.jpg


His first steps. Now why did we call him rebel?

I will get trade prices, so a 309 and a bit of fafing should cover it, thanks!

Dave

chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 15:28
Gorgeous little chap or Devil ' depending on your point of view .

I like long haired Moggies

MartinT
11-04-2010, 16:14
Our big cat has trashed my beryllium tweeters though, both of them!

Yikes - my son trashed my Usher beryllium tweeters about 18 months ago and I was seriously not pleased. The upside was that the replacements from a newer batch sounded even better.

jandl100
11-04-2010, 16:39
Well, I just got back from a day out after posting my LP clamp shootout, and saw that there were 26 replies - WOW - folks are really interested .... of course, actually it's just typical AOS thread drift :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 16:57
I'm def interested matey :)

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 18:20
I posted a picture of my clamp! But people prefurred my cat!

Dave

MartinT
11-04-2010, 18:26
prefurred my cat!

:doh:

Alex_UK
11-04-2010, 20:04
Interesting result, Jerry. I can only guess that your turntable/arm/cart combo doesn't like the extra mass of a weight, but still benefits from the record being securely coupled. I guess the Clearaudio Clever Clamp (http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Clearaudio_Clever_Clamp_CA-CC) would be an interesting modern spin (sorry!) on a low mass option, without the potential issue of rubber perishing.

My Pro-Ject 4 has a thread on the spindle, and the clamp screws on to this thread, so you can adjust the amount of down force if you don't want to go mad, but always sounds better to me locked down tight.

Alex_UK
11-04-2010, 20:06
Dave - I have experienced about 1% of your pain when my daughter managed to thwack a great big dent in a woofer, so sorry to hear of your misfortune...

jandl100
11-04-2010, 21:32
Interesting result, Jerry. I can only guess that your turntable/arm/cart combo doesn't like the extra mass of a weight, but still benefits from the record being securely coupled.

Well, sort of. There was a noticeable improvement going from my black clamp to Hamish's heavier one - but improved again going to my lightweight rubber accessory with - I would guess - a further increase in downforce but without the mass.

I guess the Clearaudio Clever Clamp (http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Clearaudio_Clever_Clamp_CA-CC) would be an interesting modern spin (sorry!) on a low mass option, without the potential issue of rubber perishing.

I used to have one of those, but sadly disposed of it when I gave up on vinyl (again) a year or two back. Yep, same principle for those without a rubber fetish! - and they are pretty cheap - circa 20.

My Pro-Ject 4 has a thread on the spindle, and the clamp screws on to this thread, so you can adjust the amount of down force if you don't want to go mad, but always sounds better to me locked down tight.

My un-evidenced gut feeling after this shoot-out is that the tighter the clamping the better. Someone off-forum has seen this thread and is sending me his 900g (!) clamp to try out - I shall report back!



.

jandl100
11-04-2010, 21:41
Interesting Jerry.
You mention the things that the changes seemed to affect most. Did the PIG restrict itself to those things alone too?


Yes, I think so - imaging and then dynamics to a lesser extent were by far the most affected things. Bass tended to get a little leaner and tauter, less 'bloat' I guess, as the other things improved - but the effect was much less noticeable to me.

Actually, it was quite interesting that there seemed a well defined and consistent sonic hierarchy, all things improved as I went up the clamp sound quality scale. I.e. I don't think I could say that Clamp A was better in some respects than Clamp B, but the other way around for another sonic attribute - everything improved with the better clamps.

chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 22:01
Hi Jerry

Would you say then the 1210 really needs to be used with a clamp!

jandl100
11-04-2010, 22:08
Hi Jerry

Would you say then the 1210 really needs to be used with a clamp!

In a way, it all depends .... :)

When I had my 1210 mounted on sorbothane footers my black clamp def 'sat on' the sound. When I changed to a hard support (RDC1 cones) the black clamp def had a beneficial effect ....

But my experience is that a hard/rigid support is better than a squidgy one, so, yes - mount the 1210 rigidly and use a clamp!

colinB
11-04-2010, 22:09
It makes me curious about the KAB mk2 clamp they have on their website

chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 22:11
Good advice Jerry ' it makes a lot of sense i have the Isonoes under mine sitting on a Notts analog thick and hard baseboard:scratch: so not sure then .

i think its something should try anyway :)

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 22:13
It seems chris, that it depends on the foundation, in simple terms, from what I have read about this.. If your tt is well isolated with solid support or isonoe feet a 300ish g weight is about right with the herbies matt that dave sells! Um isolated (or poorly isolated) foundation with a clamp of any weight seems to have the effect of sitting on the sound. The right clamp and the right foundation seems to tighten the sound ...
These conclusions are from my experience combined with what I have read, it seems the only real option is to try it your self... A good place to start is a bruil weight - http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

Stratmangler
11-04-2010, 22:15
Talking of pigs http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 22:18
Also avIlble on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290347964593

chris@panteg
11-04-2010, 22:30
I have been looking at that one ' Hamish worth a punt ?

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 22:33
It's the same (in theory) as mine, although I think mine is a touch lighter...

The Vinyl Adventure
11-04-2010, 22:34
Erm... Yeah, go for it!

Rare Bird
11-04-2010, 23:14
I've never stuck with any other clamp bar the old J.A.Michell clamp

MartinT
12-04-2010, 06:20
I agree with Hamish's observations. My deck is on Isonoe feet and the Bruil weight (the left-hand one in Jerry's photo in post #1) works very nicely to tighten the bass and improve overall focus. It seems that aluminium is the ideal material for a record weight.

jandl100
12-04-2010, 07:37
Given my results with the grippy rubber clamp, which won my little shoot-out, I'd be giving very serious thought to the Clearaudio CleverClamp ... I'm not sure that you actually need mass (which will surely put extra strain on motor and bearings) but a tight interface between LP and Herbie Mat. I'd have thought that of the clamps that are available the CleverClamp would be best placed to achieve that.

If you have a tt that can take a screwdown clamp, that may be best of all.

I'll certainly be doing more experimenting before committing to the massy clamp route.

jandl100
12-04-2010, 07:38
Whoops - double post!

MartinT
12-04-2010, 07:54
I'd be giving very serious thought to the Clearaudio CleverClamp ... I'm not sure that you actually need mass (which will surely put extra strain on motor and bearings) but a tight interface between LP and Herbie Mat.

You could be right, Jerry. However, I'll keep using the Bruil and I doubt the massively engineered Mike New bearing will even notice the additional mass :)

jandl100
12-04-2010, 08:16
If you have a tt that can take a screwdown clamp, that may be best of all.

I'll certainly be doing more experimenting before committing to the massy clamp route.

Of course :doh:, the Michell clamp does screw-down without the need for a threaded spindle ... I've just invested 25 in a new one. I shall report back on that, too. :)

Alex_UK
13-04-2010, 22:07
Given my results with the grippy rubber clamp, which won my little shoot-out, I'd be giving very serious thought to the Clearaudio CleverClamp ... I'm not sure that you actually need mass (which will surely put extra strain on motor and bearings) but a tight interface between LP and Herbie Mat. I'd have thought that of the clamps that are available the CleverClamp would be best placed to achieve that.

If you have a tt that can take a screwdown clamp, that may be best of all.

I'll certainly be doing more experimenting before committing to the massy clamp route.

The explanation on the Clearaudio description certainly makes logical sense to me:

"There are two distinct advantages to using a record clamp on your turntable. The first is obvious; clamping warped records flat.

The second is often overlooked, but sonically far more important. LP records vibrate along with the music as the stylus traces the groove as well as tending to move or bend under the pressure of the arm and cartridge when they are insufficiently supported. A good quality record clamp will not only flatten out warps but also couple the LP tightly to the platter so that internal resonances can be drained away from the stylus - as if the LP is of effectively a much higher thickness and rigidity."

colinB
13-04-2010, 22:22
The clearaudio s look smart but im still swayed by the KAB clamp. It looks well engineered, fits the spindle exactly and its based on the PIG.
I dont like ordering from the states but im going to give it a go

YNWaN
14-04-2010, 01:11
Clamps are very effective at coupling bearing noise to the record.

Ammonite Acoustics
14-04-2010, 05:30
The clearaudio s look smart but im still swayed by the KAB clamp. It looks well engineered, fits the spindle exactly and its based on the PIG.
I dont like ordering from the states but im going to give it a go

Analogue Seduction sell it here in the UK http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/KAB_Super_Record_Grip_%28Bubble_Level_%26_Record_C lamp%29_KAB-RG

MartinT
14-04-2010, 07:16
Clamps are very effective at coupling bearing noise to the record.

If there is any bearing noise. I certainly can't hear any from the Mike New bearing.

jandl100
14-04-2010, 07:36
Clamps are very effective at coupling bearing noise to the record.

Yes, that sounds logical.

But the listening tests speak for themselves ... any clamp is better than no clamp according to my ears.

Perhaps it's one step back (for the point you make) but several steps forward (for other reasons)?

YNWaN
14-04-2010, 07:41
If there is any bearing noise. I certainly can't hear any from the Mike New bearing.

Yes, that is true - mine is a general comment and not intended as a specific criticism of the bearing you mention.

However, I would say that the noise I am referring to is not easily 'heard' as such and is often only noticeable once it is removed.

chris@panteg
14-04-2010, 10:12
I think you have to take on board what Mark is saying !

i have never used a clamp ' though recently a little curious , its worth trying so long as you don't spend to much .

DSJR
14-04-2010, 10:52
The explanation on the Clearaudio description certainly makes logical sense to me:

"There are two distinct advantages to using a record clamp on your turntable. The first is obvious; clamping warped records flat.

The second is often overlooked, but sonically far more important. LP records vibrate along with the music as the stylus traces the groove as well as tending to move or bend under the pressure of the arm and cartridge when they are insufficiently supported. A good quality record clamp will not only flatten out warps but also couple the LP tightly to the platter so that internal resonances can be drained away from the stylus - as if the LP is of effectively a much higher thickness and rigidity."

Alex, the "vibrations" of a stylus tracing vinyl are so small I doubt they'd be measurable an inch away from the playing area, let alone at the centre of a record - and no, I haven't tried to measure it with an accelerometer... The mat should do the rest..

The little plastic Monitor Audio three footed clamp (I forget the name) from the 70's used to help the stability of the sound on an LP12, but it wasn't kosher to use one and it was a PITA frankly on a suspended deck, so quickly forgotten.

(Drifting a bit, check out the needle drops on PF that Flat Andrew and Mark YNWOAN have posted, along with a couple of teasers... )

YNWaN
14-04-2010, 10:56
In my experience, record clamps (and weights) have an element of 'swings and roundabouts' to the benefits they bring (excuse the rather twisted analogy :)).

_______________________


There are two distinct advantages to using a record clamp on your turntable. The first is obvious; clamping warped records flat.

The second is often overlooked, but sonically far more important. LP records vibrate along with the music as the stylus traces the groove as well as tending to move or bend under the pressure of the arm and cartridge when they are insufficiently supported. A good quality record clamp will not only flatten out warps but also couple the LP tightly to the platter so that internal resonances can be drained away from the stylus - as if the LP is of effectively a much higher thickness and rigidity.

Actually, I disagree with pretty much all of the above quote.

Most record clamps do relatively little to flatten uneven records - pressure is required to do this and unless the clamp is a screw down variety it is difficult to apply sufficient pressure. Even if sufficient pressure can be applied, it is done in a very uneven manner with much more pressure at the centre of the record than at the edge.

The record doesn't 'bend' under the pressure of the arm and cartridge (as suggested above) during playback - to state this is to enormously overstate the forces applied.

It's a nice idea that "internal resonances can be drained away from the stylus" but unfortunately this is very much easier said than done. What actually happens is that some 'resonances' are 'drained away' whilst other are not (some may even be reflected)- this gives a distinct colouration and is responsible for the sonic 'character' that many mats posses. Even if the record is clamped to a material with a similar impedance the record is still a mechanically separate entity and only contacts the mat by the top edges of the grooves (assuming that the entire surface of the record touches the mat equally and with equal pressure - in reality neither of these will be the case).

jandl100
14-04-2010, 11:34
Bloody theorists! :doh::rolleyes::mental:

... all you have to do is listen! ;)

________

Arrived this morning - a lightweight Michell screwdown clamp and a 900g mass-monster! :)

MartinT
14-04-2010, 11:38
900g!! Hope you won't try it on a suspended deck. Oh, and don't drop it on your precious vinyl either :)

YNWaN
14-04-2010, 11:55
Bloody theorists! :doh::rolleyes::mental:

... all you have to do is listen! ;)

________

Arrived this morning - a lightweight Michell screwdown clamp and a 900g mass-monster! :)

I've done a lot of that too - it's not entirely conjecture :)

colinB
14-04-2010, 12:23
[QUOTE=Shuggie;116570]Analogue Seduction sell it here in the UK http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/KAB_Super_Record_Grip_%28Bubble_Level_%26_Record_C lamp%29_KAB-RG[/QUOTE

I saw that shuggie but its different from the rc1200 mk2 he has on his website.
It seems to be specific to the technics spindle.

jandl100
14-04-2010, 12:25
Actually, I disagree with pretty much all of the above quote.

Most record clamps do relatively little to flatten uneven records - pressure is required to do this and unless the clamp is a screw down variety it is difficult to apply sufficient pressure. Even if sufficient pressure can be applied, it is done in a very uneven manner with much more pressure at the centre of the record than at the edge.

The record doesn't 'bend' under the pressure of the arm and cartridge (as suggested above) during playback - to state this is to enormously overstate the forces applied.

It's a nice idea that "internal resonances can be drained away from the stylus" but unfortunately this is very much easier said than done. What actually happens is that some 'resonances' are 'drained away' whilst other are not (some may even be reflected)- this gives a distinct colouration and is responsible for the sonic 'character' that many mats posses. Even if the record is clamped to a material with a similar impedance the record is still a mechanically separate entity and only contacts the mat by the top edges of the grooves (assuming that the entire surface of the record touches the mat equally and with equal pressure - in reality neither of these will be the case).

Some authoritative, categoric and definitive statements, there.
But based on what experience, experimentation or references?

jandl100
14-04-2010, 12:27
900g!! Hope you won't try it on a suspended deck. Oh, and don't drop it on your precious vinyl either :)

It's HUGE! :eek: ... as the actress said to the bishop. ;)

No, it's not a suspended deck, it's a Techie 1210.

colinB
14-04-2010, 12:40
Has anyone used the universal resonance ring that the bruil guy recommends with his record weight? Wouldnt it sort the problem of uneven weight distribution on the record

YNWaN
14-04-2010, 13:41
Some authoritative, categoric and definitive statements, there.
But based on what experience, experimentation or references?

Yes, it is phrased that way (because these are my informed opinions) - but in the end it's all personal opinion.

I've over 20 years thinking about, designing, building and experimenting with turntables and their constituent parts. I'm happy for you to dismiss, or disbelieve, my comments though.

(actually, I built my first deck when I was still at school; so quite a bit more than 20 years ago).

jandl100
14-04-2010, 14:02
Yes, it is phrased that way (because these are my informed opinions) - but in the end it's all personal opinion.

I've over 20 years thinking about, designing, building and experimenting with turntables and their constituent parts. I'm happy for you to dismiss, or disbelieve, my comments though.
(actually, I built my first deck when I was still at school; so quite a bit more than 20 years ago).

No, that's fine, I wouldn't dismiss anything. I just wanted to know where you are coming from, that's all. :)

blake
14-04-2010, 14:02
Bloody theorists! :doh::rolleyes::mental:

... all you have to do is listen! ;)

________

Arrived this morning - a lightweight Michell screwdown clamp and a 900g mass-monster! :)

Jerry: I think the "screwdown" title would apply more to the Orbe clamp with the threaded spindle than the Michell clamp which I believe you received.

Nonetheless, let me give you some tips for the Michell clamp as the instructions are truly minimalist. First of all, with thick records, 180-200 gram, don't use the felt washer.

Secondly-do not overtighten! I turn the knob of the clamp only with my thumb and forefinger and barely past the point at which I feel pressure.

Thirdly, with your non tightening hand, also use your thumb and forefinger to press down gently on the perimeter of the clamp as you tighten. With small dish warps in which the record would be a "normal bowl sitting upright", you will need to apply a bit more pressure than you will if the "bowl is upside down" (this requires very, very little pressure) to couple the record effectively to the platter and eliminate or minimize the warp.

The biggest mistake people make with the Michell clamp is to overtighten. Don't overtighten and experiment with technique to minimize warps and maximize coupling with the platter!

jandl100
14-04-2010, 14:25
LP Clamp Shoot-Out - Part the Second

Well, well ... this is quite interesting.

Herewith the full range of clamps tested on my Techie tt ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LPclamp2.jpg

As before, plus the Michell clamp, the 900g weight and an even heavier one (in fact, a fancy footer with a convenient centre hole that just required a little file-work to fit over the Techie's spindle! .. henceforth known as the Big Black Footer).

I started the listening tests all over again, with a different LP (one I am very familiar with).

The result was the same ordering as before for the clamps I already had .... poorest was no clamp, next up my shiny black strobe one, then Hamish's, then the grippy Revolver Pig mk1.

On went the 900g beast. Whoops! - better again, and not by a small margin. Everything more focussed and the music more dynamically alive.

Next came the Michell clamp. High expectations on this ... but, oh dear. Nope - a poor match for my setup. Not as well focussed as Hamish's (about the same as my black clamp), but the dynamic contrast of the music was straight out the window - snoozeville. This is being returned for a refund.

Then came the heavyweight black'un, the Big Black Footer. Aha - thought I - if the mass trend is followed then this should be the best .... nope! A little (but significantly) behind the 900g clamp.

At this point I thought I'd get precise weights for them all, so out came the kitchen scales ....

Black/strobe - 265g
Hamish's - 350g
900g clamp - yup, 900g!
Big black footer .... errr, 770g! ..... I'd guessed the weight wrong, probably because it is a bit clumsy to pick up with no 'handle' on it.
So the more mass the better rule is true after all.

Inspired by this conclusion, I then went totally nutty and created a 1.12Kg weight by heaping Hamish's clamp on top of my Big Black Footer .... :eek::doh: ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LPclamp3.jpg

And this was by far the very best sound of all .... :mental: but true!!!

jandl100
14-04-2010, 14:29
Jerry: I think the "screwdown" title would apply more to the Orbe clamp with the threaded spindle than the Michell clamp which I believe you received.

Nonetheless, let me give you some tips for the Michell clamp as the instructions are truly minimalist. First of all, with thick records, 180-200 gram, don't use the felt washer.

Secondly-do not overtighten! I turn the knob of the clamp only with my thumb and forefinger and barely past the point at which I feel pressure.

Thirdly, with your non tightening hand, also use your thumb and forefinger to press down gently on the perimeter of the clamp as you tighten. With small dish warps in which the record would be a "normal bowl sitting upright", you will need to apply a bit more pressure than you will if the "bowl is upside down" (this requires very, very little pressure) to couple the record effectively to the platter and eliminate or minimize the warp.

The biggest mistake people make with the Michell clamp is to overtighten. Don't overtighten and experiment with technique to minimize warps and maximize coupling with the platter!

Thanks Blake, I hadn't seen your post before I did the 2nd part of my shootout as reported above.

I shall re-investigate the Michell based on your comments. :)

jandl100
14-04-2010, 14:42
LP Clamp Shoot-Out - Part the Third - the Michell clamp

Inspired by Blake's comments I have retried the Michell .... with pretty much the same result, really.
But - leave out the felt washer supplied with the Michell between LP and mat and the music regains its dynamic life and musical involvement. Much, much better - at least in my setup.
I suspect that the space left by the felt washer negates the very beneficial effect of the Herbie Mat. It sounded very like the tt pre-Herbie.

Felt washer-less I'd place the Michell between Hamish's clamp and the Big Black Footer, but nearer the latter ... perhaps I shan't be returning the Michell after all!

MartinT
14-04-2010, 14:46
Jerry, I notice from the photo that you still have the lid attached to your Techie. Have you tried taking it off? I keep mine off as it has a very deleterious effect on the music.

Gdg
14-04-2010, 15:27
On my stock 1210 M5G, some time ago, I made the same test of Jerry, and my conclusion is tha same of Jerry: heavy clamps are better then screwed or light ones. So I end up using a Nagaoka 750 gr clamp
-
But I'm a bit worried: what is going to happen to steel ball under the stock bearing when you load 900 gr or more on it? :scratch:

Nigel
14-04-2010, 16:11
Has anyone tried the Herbie's supersonic record stabilizer the company recommends for use with their excellent mats?

MartinT
14-04-2010, 16:41
Has anyone tried the Herbie's supersonic record stabilizer the company recommends for use with their excellent mats?

It's only 163g so may not do well compared with the other weights here, despite the "non-magnetic composite of fluorocarbons and metallic particles" content.

blake
14-04-2010, 16:43
Jerry: If you don't return the Michell, bear in mind that it was/is designed to be used with Michell's acrylic/delrin/vinyl platters. In other words, the clamp platter interface is very different than what you are currently dealing with in terms of the Herbie's mat or other soft mats.

An acrylic or "harder" mat may well provide totally different results, not just with the Michell clamp, but also (just to totally confuse you:eyebrows:) with all of the others you're using!

The main purpose of the felt washer is to lift the record up so that clamping down will eliminate or reduce warps and couple the record to the platter but lossy felt along with a lossy mat might be too much and do exactly as you describe. Makes sense actually.

DSJR
14-04-2010, 17:33
On my stock 1210 M5G, some time ago, I made the same test of Jerry, and my conclusion is tha same of Jerry: heavy clamps are better then screwed or light ones. So I end up using a Nagaoka 750 gr clamp
-
But I'm a bit worried: what is going to happen to steel ball under the stock bearing when you load 900 gr or more on it? :scratch:

This is where the external power supply comes in I reckon, as Timestep's measurements of the internal regulator show dramatic "hunting" when under load. The Timestep (at least) in this instance, bypasses the internal regulator and uses its own, which all but cures this measurable (and audible apparently) characteristic I understand.

Gdg
14-04-2010, 18:00
This is where the external power supply comes in I reckon, as Timestep's measurements of the internal regulator show dramatic "hunting" when under load. The Timestep (at least) in this instance, bypasses the internal regulator and uses its own, which all but cures this measurable (and audible apparently) characteristic I understand.

Dave, my concern is more about the wear of the bearing.

There's a steel ball under the pin, touching directly on a plate, lubricated by thin oil. So, what is going to happen under an heavy weight?
IIRC, that was a weakness of the SP 15. Just because the SP15 had a much heavy platter, after some time (long, to be exact), if not lubricated, the bearing tended to drill the plate under it, and then wear itself.

jandl100
14-04-2010, 19:09
Jerry, I notice from the photo that you still have the lid attached to your Techie. Have you tried taking it off? I keep mine off as it has a very deleterious effect on the music.

Yes, I meant to post about that.

I did try it with lid removed, and I didn't notice any difference at all! :scratch:

That was back when the Techie was sitting on sorbothane footers, I think - maybe it would be different now it is on a rigid cone support. I'll give it another go .... but I do have rampaging cats, and a lid when not in use is essential really - but it's easy enough to lift off and replace.

jandl100
14-04-2010, 19:12
Dave, my concern is more about the wear of the bearing.


I must admit that I've been wondering about that, too ....

I should have more of those Big Black Footers around, and I'd quite like to try stacking a pair of them :stalks: ... that would make over 1.5Kg. :mental::eyebrows:

MartinT
14-04-2010, 19:48
Steady on...

Actually, the Mike New bearing could probably take that in its stride.