New cartridge advice - Ortofon 2M bronze

[Mikeandvan]

Been using a Goldring cart over last year, can't remember the model number, but cost about £200, recently it started to sound shite,think I screwed up the cart body by misaligning the stylus and forcing it in, oh well. So went back to my old Ortofon 2M blue, an immediate improvement - just because this cart ain't broken, whereas the Goldring obv was. So been listening for a few hours, it still sounds a bit brighter/harsh than I'd like. Was reading about the 2M Black the other day, and one person said they listened to similar music to me, rock, 60s, etc and it was too clinical/harsh for them and they preferred their 2m Bronze, anyone got experience of this cart? Or can recommend any other cart for my tastes? Arm is Jelco 750D, nakamichi ca-5 as phono stage, also just bought a graham slee era V. Price in the £200 range. Ta.
Edit, just read the what hi-fi review of 2m bronze and it sounds like exactly what I don't need! Analytical etc!!
Goldring 1042 seems a contender, according to what hi-fi it overcomes the thinness of its test music - captain beefheart, one of my constant gripes is that beefheart sounds tinny and harsh on my system!

[Svend N]

Mike,

Your read of the Bronze is quite accurate. I have compared the 2M Bronze with a Goldring 1022 (similar to the 1042 - same body, different stylus) on a Rega arm, and the 1022 was far more punchy, dynamic, full-bodied. Excellent bass drive and nice rich mids.

The Bronze was also excellent, but quite different - more detailed, delicate, light-footed, quick. I wouldn't call it analytical, just not terribly full-bodied, more detailed, more air and ambiance than the Goldring, which was forward and direct by comparison.

For most of the music that I presently have in my vinyl collection (jazz and rock), the Goldring sounded far better than the 2M Bronze. I'm sure if I had mostly classical or easy-going acoustic I might have preferred the lighter touch of the Bronze. But for straight-ahead driving jazz and rock, the Goldring is brilliant.

I tried both carts with a Rega R200 arm, then on a Rega RB300 arm, the latter being lower mass than your Jelco. Compliance-wise the Jelco should be a better match for the 1022.

Apparently the 1042 is even better yet than the 1022. Great cartridges!

Bottom line: both the Ortofon and the Goldring are excellent, but I think the 1022 or 1042 fits your needs description better. Let me know if you need more feedback on either.

Svend

[Ian7633]

I've no experience of the 2M Bronze but I did have a 2M Black for quite a while. They are VERY fussy about setting up and require a lot of patience to get them in the sweet spot but once you find it the Black is a brilliant cartridge. Lots of people give up with them but they really are worth the effort. I used it with a Nakamichi CA 5 as well with great results.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike,

Your read of the Bronze is quite accurate. I have compared the 2M Bronze with a Goldring 1022 (similar to the 1042 - same body, different stylus) on a Rega arm, and the 1022 was far more punchy, dynamic, full-bodied. Excellent bass drive and nice rich mids.

The Bronze was also excellent, but quite different - more detailed, delicate, light-footed, quick. I wouldn't call it analytical, just not terribly full-bodied, more detailed, more air and ambiance than the Goldring, which was forward and direct by comparison.

For most of the music that I presently have in my vinyl collection (jazz and rock), the Goldring sounded far better than the 2M Bronze. I'm sure if I had mostly classical or easy-going acoustic I might have preferred the lighter touch of the Bronze. But for straight-ahead driving jazz and rock, the Goldring is brilliant.

I tried both carts with a Rega R200 arm, then on a Rega RB300 arm, the latter being lower mass than your Jelco. Compliance-wise the Jelco should be a better match for the 1022.

Apparently the 1042 is even better yet than the 1022. Great cartridges!

Bottom line: both the Ortofon and the Goldring are excellent, but I think the 1022 or 1042 fits your needs description better. Let me know if you need more feedback on either.

Svend

Thanks Svend, sounds like a good recommendation.

[Mikeandvan]

I've no experience of the 2M Bronze but I did have a 2M Black for quite a while. They are VERY fussy about setting up and require a lot of patience to get them in the sweet spot but once you find it the Black is a brilliant cartridge. Lots of people give up with them but they really are worth the effort. I used it with a Nakamichi CA 5 as well with great results.

Patient or nimble fingered I ain't! Be interesting to see how the slee stacks up against the Nak. How do you connect your Nak, tape out?

[Ian7633]

Patient or nimble fingered I ain't! Be interesting to see how the slee stacks up against the Nak. How do you connect your Nak, tape out?

I used tape out when I ran it into my Musical Fidelity A3 but now I have the Proton power amp so I use the pre out 1 RCA. I've noticed that the line inputs are pretty good as well, CD etc. As you know the phono stage is bloody good, I think you'd have to go a long way to better it. Have you seen the prices they go for now?.

I think a lot of the difficulty setting up the Black is the actual shape of the cartridge body, it's all curves and angles so it's hard to find reference points when using a protractor. Both Jamie and myself ended up using feeler gauges to set the VTA. My middle name is Sausage Fingers and I do swear a lot when stuff refuses to cooperate but I got there eventually. When I got the Quintet Black it was so easy to set up as it is just a rectangular body, same stylus as the 2M though.

[Mikeandvan]

I used tape out when I ran it into my Musical Fidelity A3 but now I have the Proton power amp so I use the pre out 1 RCA. I've noticed that the line inputs are pretty good as well, CD etc. As you know the phono stage is bloody good, I think you'd have to go a long way to better it. Have you seen the prices they go for now?.

I think a lot of the difficulty setting up the Black is the actual shape of the cartridge body, it's all curves and angles so it's hard to find reference points when using a protractor. Both Jamie and myself ended up using feeler gauges to set the VTA. My middle name is Sausage Fingers and I do swear a lot when stuff refuses to cooperate but I got there eventually. When I got the Quintet Black it was so easy to set up as it is just a rectangular body, same stylus as the 2M though.
The only other phono stages I've used are the Naim cards in old Naim shoebox amps. But recently got sick of not having a remote, so switched to the Naim nait 5, which so far I like. With so much switching around its hard to get an idea of the Naks attributes, also the Goldring 2200 I was using for the past year went caput, so now using an old - but still perfectly useable Ortfon 2m blue, the sound overall is pretty good but still has a harshness at higher levels, which I'd like to tame if I can. Anyway, thought I'd try another - well respected - phono stage and compare the two, let you know how I get on, need to reacquaint myself to the sound of the 2M first for a few days, then try the Slee. Then its try a new cart time, I also have a pretty well used Denon dl110 that I can dig out, pretty sure that's still useable too.

[DSJR]

"Where I come from," the Bronze is the more 'truthful' but where vinyl's concerned, who ever gives a feck about accuracy to the source (if properly cut and pressed from the master recordings) - and I do have a little first hand experience and gleaned knowledge here...

The Goldring 1042 used to sound great in a Rega 3 with RB300, the two playing to each other's strengths, but when I tried a 1042 away from this deck, I was disappointed by a scratchy (sorry) one note treble, a boppy bass not especially tuneful and not that inspiring midband. maybe it was me, I don't know...

The newish AT540 seems to be well liked - with a translator, look on the German Lowbeats site for subjective, measurement and sound-byte files of the AT's and 2M's... Unlike the 60's and 70's, the desire seems to be for a flat lower top response, but with MM's especially, a slight rise above 10k, which some iffy phono stages may react to, causing more harshness than is really there perhaps?

Sorry to say it, but the bottleneck for you may well be the Nait 5, as push it a fraction too far and it distorts nastily in my experience over the years... The CA5 should be fine as a phono stage though, if a little airless as a full blown preamp (I went for a beautifully made CA7 myself at the end and this was trounced by a Croft - cough...)

The Interspace shouldn't at all be an impediment ime... and neither should the jelco with a touch of damping applied if necessary.

You could also consider the Hana high output model which the Jelco will like. Don't know about current ortofon MC's now Henley only deal with full-range stockists (and Ortofon do some second rate stuff in addition to the gems, so not worth a small dealer stocking it all in my trade experience and opinion)..

Good luck - you won't go wrong really with either of the two initial choices really. Maybe a Spacemat to help tame any top distortions if you don't have one already (it's only twenty quid or so and I'd be lost without mine)..

[Mikeandvan]

"Where I come from," the Bronze is the more 'truthful' but where vinyl's concerned, who ever gives a feck about accuracy to the source (if properly cut and pressed from the master recordings) - and I do have a little first hand experience and gleaned knowledge here...

The Goldring 1042 used to sound great in a Rega 3 with RB300, the two playing to each other's strengths, but when I tried a 1042 away from this deck, I was disappointed by a scratchy (sorry) one note treble, a boppy bass not especially tuneful and not that inspiring midband. maybe it was me, I don't know...

The newish AT540 seems to be well liked - with a translator, look on the German Lowbeats site for subjective, measurement and sound-byte files of the AT's and 2M's... Unlike the 60's and 70's, the desire seems to be for a flat lower top response, but with MM's especially, a slight rise above 10k, which some iffy phono stages may react to, causing more harshness than is really there perhaps?

Sorry to say it, but the bottleneck for you may well be the Nait 5, as push it a fraction too far and it distorts nastily in my experience over the years... The CA5 should be fine as a phono stage though, if a little airless as a full blown preamp (I went for a beautifully made CA7 myself at the end and this was trounced by a Croft - cough...)

The Interspace shouldn't at all be an impediment ime... and neither should the jelco with a touch of damping applied if necessary.

You could also consider the Hana high output model which the Jelco will like. Don't know about current ortofon MC's now Henley only deal with full-range stockists (and Ortofon do some second rate stuff in addition to the gems, so not worth a small dealer stocking it all in my trade experience and opinion)..

Good luck - you won't go wrong really with either of the two initial choices really. Maybe a Spacemat to help tame any top distortions if you don't have one already (it's only twenty quid or so and I'd be lost without mine)..

Yes I read elsewhere the Nak amps weren't as good as their reputation suggests. Something is certainly sounding harsh in my system at higher levels, wonder if an additional power supply would help the Nait along? Like a flatcap or Teddycap, it was a bargain anyway at £250 with a recent Naim service.Still, I'll have to do a bit of box swapping with the Nak and slee, and probably a new cart should be got, both the 2M and Denon have had at least 1 year at high playing levels, about 2 hours a day.

[karma67]

how about a denon 103r ?
the 2m black is a very good cartridge but takes time to set up,dont worry about the shape of it as its always best to align the cantilever with the protractor rather than the cartridge body.
i bought a space mat for my lp12 a while ago,it didn't do much for me plus it didn't fit,if you want it your welcome to it.

[Mikeandvan]

how about a denon 103r ?
the 2m black is a very good cartridge but takes time to set up,dont worry about the shape of it as its always best to align the cantilever with the protractor rather than the cartridge body.
i bought a space mat for my lp12 a while ago,it didn't do much for me plus it didn't fit,if you want it your welcome to it.
Can't afford to spend £500 on a cart, so the Black is out, I think I already have the spacemat, the dark grey light spongy one? The 103r? I'll look into that, thanks.

[hifi_dave]

Unfortunately, Beefheart never sounds great on any system. You can't base your choice on his recordings.

IMO, the 2M range is on the thin side of neutral and become more analytical as you go up the range. I prefer carts with a bit more body like a high output Hana or if you have a MC input, the Rega Ania or one of the great value Audio Technicas.

[DSJR]

Yeah, but vinyl's so soft toned to start with :D

The really good thing about NAS decks as a breed is that the bass is never overblown, so a beefier toned cartridge doesn't become a stodge as it can on some other decks. The 'power' should come through well without exaggeration.

Sorry about the 'two Dave's tag team' here.. Only trying to help...


P.S. the old Nakamichi 'Stasis based' power amps are very good and I especially liked the PA7 (both versions) and the PA5mk2 which I owned for a couple of years after the squeezed out Linn LK280 which some love but I didn't - ever! Only downside is the horrendous time taken to 'warm up' which wouldn't occur with modern transistors (you wouldn't need ten output devices per channel these days). The preamps both had good phono stages in them, but the line stages seemed to take the 'air' out I remember.

Harshness at higher volumes is the Nait complaining and later Nait 5's do exactly the same I recall!

[hifi_dave]

Can't have too many Daves.

[walpurgis]

Can't have too many Daves.

That's a matter of opinion. ;)

[Mikeandvan]

Unfortunately, Beefheart never sounds great on any system. You can't base your choice on his recordings.

IMO, the 2M range is on the thin side of neutral and become more analytical as you go up the range. I prefer carts with a bit more body like a high output Hana or if you have a MC input, the Rega Ania or one of the great value Audio Technicas.

Thanks Dave, are there any Hanas in the £200 range? I had an AT cart once, it cost me £400 and lasted only 2 days, due to hay fever I broke it, which is why I now only limit myself to spending £200 - may'be a touch higher.

[Mikeandvan]

Yeah, but vinyl's so soft toned to start with :D

The really good thing about NAS decks as a breed is that the bass is never overblown, so a beefier toned cartridge doesn't become a stodge as it can on some other decks. The 'power' should come through well without exaggeration.

Sorry about the 'two Dave's tag team' here.. Only trying to help...


P.S. the old Nakamichi 'Stasis based' power amps are very good and I especially liked the PA7 (both versions) and the PA5mk2 which I owned for a couple of years after the squeezed out Linn LK280 which some love but I didn't - ever! Only downside is the horrendous time taken to 'warm up' which wouldn't occur with modern transistors (you wouldn't need ten output devices per channel these days). The preamps both had good phono stages in them, but the line stages seemed to take the 'air' out I remember.

Harshness at higher volumes is the Nait complaining and later Nait 5's do exactly the same I recall!

Thanks Dave, I'm not sure the Nait is the problem here, I think my styluses are nearing their life cycle, or my set up of them is not perfect. The problem exists at all listening levels.

[Phil Bishop]

Unfortunately, Beefheart never sounds great on any system. You can't base your choice on his recordings.

IMO, the 2M range is on the thin side of neutral and become more analytical as you go up the range. I prefer carts with a bit more body like a high output Hana or if you have a MC input, the Rega Ania or one of the great value Audio Technicas.

Could not agree more - after many years of trying Rega, Ortofon, Nagaoka, etc, MM offerings myself and a friend are coming to the conclusion that it's the Audio Technicas that hit the sweet spot. I'm currently using an AT95EX on my Techie and it sounds very well balanced with no discernible nasties. Also have an AT-F7 MC on one of my Regas which sounds excellent too.

Cheers

Phil

[Mikeandvan]

Well I got me nice new Jelco hs25 headshell, so I've got 2 now, can compare easily, what cart shall I get?? £250 max.

[Mikeandvan]

Emm, Goldring 1042 looking like the one, Juno records have them cheap - £250, anybody any experience of them - Juno? Would hate to buy a so called new cart only for it to be seconds or something. Richer sounds have them for £275, seems reasonable.

[bbbiker800]

Emm, Goldring 1042 looking like the one, Juno records have them cheap - £250, anybody any experience of them - Juno? Would hate to buy a so called new cart only for it to be seconds or something. Richer sounds have them for £275, seems reasonable.

I've brought vinyl and a Project VCS this year at the cheapest price. Communication and delivery times were great and the probly I had with the project brush was speedily fixed with a replacement from their own stock. So ended up impressed with their service. Best regards Richard

[Mikeandvan]

Due to temporary unemployment been doing a fair bit of listening this past week. Been listening through new-to-me Slee Era V, changed the 2m blue for an old DL 110 and my system is sounding pretty sweet. Think the Denon is a warmer cart than the 2m, and the Era v is I think responsible for a better sound as well, can't be sure till I go back to the Nak for a few days, but either way quite happy with it now. Can anyone tell me how do you know is a cart is worn? This denon is over a year old with 2-3 hours use everyday.

[karma67]

i think bad treble/distortion is a sign.

[walpurgis]

Been listening through new-to-me Slee Era V

Great little unit the ERA Gold V.

[Mikeandvan]

i think bad treble/distortion is a sign.

That could be it then, hate to thow away a good though, suppose just buy a new one and compare. Or just stick this one on ebay as 'low hours' use and get £70 for it:lol:

[Mikeandvan]

Great little unit the ERA Gold V.

Yeh< I swear its beating the Nak. Though expert opinion is the Nak is the more sophisticated stage?

[graham67]

I used a jelco 750 on a 401 and found the jelco needed a cart with a bit of energy to avoid sounding dull. I tried and rejected several carts such as gold ring 1042, denon 103R, 103DL all found to be a bit flat when playing rock and pop. Carts which worked well included Audio Note IQ2, AT 150mlx (microline.) The cart I use now, the AT 150SA (shibata) should also sound good on this arm though compliance is a touch high. As mentioned above, the cheaper 540 would be worth a look.

[Mikeandvan]

Think I'll go for the Nagaoka MP-200, it costs around £350 in UK, but £250 from Japan! Anyone buy carts direct from Japan? Suppose I'll get hit with customs ?

[Mikeandvan]

I used a jelco 750 on a 401 and found the jelco needed a cart with a bit of energy to avoid sounding dull. I tried and rejected several carts such as gold ring 1042, denon 103R, 103DL all found to be a bit flat when playing rock and pop. Carts which worked well included Audio Note IQ2, AT 150mlx (microline.) The cart I use now, the AT 150SA (shibata) should also sound good on this arm though compliance is a touch high. As mentioned above, the cheaper 540 would be worth a look.

That might be your Garrard, aren't idlers supposed to be warmer sounding ? They might need a more analytical cart.

[graham67]

That might be your Garrard, aren't idlers supposed to be warmer sounding ? They might need a more analytical cart.
Hi mike, that's a fair enough comment, and without knowing how your deck sounds my findings may not be relevant ��

[Mikeandvan]

Price of carts bit bonkers really, my amp was £250, phono amp £300, ok used, but unlike carts they don't really wear out! And now I have to cough up £200 - £400 for a 'budget' cart!!

[Mikeandvan]

The Nag MP 200 arrived today, currently running it in. Hope I set it up right.... Tracking force 1.8, aligned with Nottingham analogue alignment gauge, weight checked by electronic scales. So far I'm liking it, hopefully will get better over next week.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1961/31899220738_1c0f454600_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QAPQYs)IMG_20181107_203752144 (https://flic.kr/p/QAPQYs) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
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[Cas]

Unfortunately, Beefheart never sounds great on any system. You can't base your choice on his recordings.

IMO, the 2M range is on the thin side of neutral and become more analytical as you go up the range. I prefer carts with a bit more body like a high output Hana or if you have a MC input, the Rega Ania or one of the great value Audio Technicas.

Sound fine on mine :)

[MDS]

Price of carts bit bonkers really, my amp was £250, phono amp £300, ok used, but unlike carts they don't really wear out! And now I have to cough up £200 - £400 for a 'budget' cart!!

A budget cartridge it isn't

I would say £50-150 is budget but not the very cheapest

New Audio Technica VM95 perhaps
Shure M97 perhaps

Oh - and that color on Nag is really horrible, hope it performs better than looks

[Mikeandvan]

A budget cartridge it isn't

I would say £50-150 is budget but not the very cheapest

New Audio Technica VM95 perhaps
Shure M97 perhaps

Oh - and that color on Nag is really horrible, hope it performs better than looks
Depends what your budget is I guess, lols!!! I mean some guys out there are spending 5K on a cart that's gonna be thrown away after 1000 hours, bonkers!! But may'be 5K is just a days work to them? Yeh, the MP 200 looks like a cheapo cart. Its early days, but so far its sounding good, mellow and detailed at the same time, so far anyway.

[Mikeandvan]

This is the most detail I've ever heard from a cart, at £260 from Japan (I wasn't hit with customs, is this an arbitrary thing?), it seems a bargain. I cannot imagine what really posh carts can do for music! So far after about 10 hours play its sounding pretty damn good, I left my TT running last night with the needle on, so that must have put another 10 hours on it! It also seems to have the sweetness and mellowness I sought, as well as doing impressive things with rhythm. Replacement stylus' are only a £100 as well! Thank you to anyone who recommended Nag carts. Ugly as hell though! I'm still not sure though it passed the kinks or Beefhart test...…….What is the best cart for scratchy 60s rock? Shure?

[Mikeandvan]

5 days on, and with around 3 hours per day use, plus some overnight left turntable on use, the nag is sounding great, Beefheart is finally listenable, gonna get a few replacement stylus's before they stop being sold at the crazy price of £100!!:):):) From Japan of course, forget rip off Britain!!