Croft phono stages etc.

[Frazeur1]

Sorry that this might be a long and boring post! I have scoured through the many posts on Croft phono stages over the course of the last few weeks trying to get a feel for information on them. As I recently purchased my turntable, a project that has been somewhat put on hold due to money and time, research into these stages continue when I can. Hearing them in my system without purchase will be another hurdle. Keep in mind I am located in the US, and while there are a few Croft dealers, I doubt any have the try before you buy, unfortunately. Some of the other stages noted below in my post, I can get some home time with them, but having owned Croft Micro 25 and Series 7 amps in the past, I do find his products very musical and decent values even here across the pond.

So, in terms of sonic attributes, and I know this is all subjective as well as system dependent, what are the differences in the base phono stage, then to the “R” version? I should also note that my cartridge for time being is the lowly but solid performer, Nagaoka MP110, which at some point way down the road will be upgraded. But for now....

As another twist, looking at the Croft Micro 25 phono stage, and that of the 25R, what again are those differences in the in built phono stages? How do these compare or overlap to the phono stages alone noted above?

I realize probably no one has heard any of my components save maybe the Innuos Zen, so putting things into system context may be a real miss, and I get that. I am looking at other phono stages as well, I did have the Lehmann Decade on the hook listed in my equipment, but in a strange twist, things fell through for it, I should remove it, but it is still one that is in the potential mix as I have had a bit of experience with it some time ago. Other possibilities are Audiomat 1.7, Audio Hungary/Qualiton stage, and another outsider, the Encore 7 PS5.

While price is a concern, I am just feeling through some of this, and a couple of these stages I can buy at demo pricing, so roughly 2K US dollars as a rough guide possibly. I appreciate any thoughts here! Thanks for your time!

Tim

[Jimbo]

Hi Tim, how you doing?

Well as you know I am a Croft user and have heard all his phono stages but not all in my system, however moving from the 25 to the 25R you get valve regulation which translates into more control of the overall sound and greater nuances in the music are revealed. There is an increase in realism and detail in the soundstage compare to the 25 and a more refined performance.

I have also heard the Innuos Zen through the 25R via a Chord Qutest DAC and that was very good indeed. The Innuos is really a step change in digital music delivery compared to anything else I have heard. However I still prefer vinyl.

Just a though you would do even better if you bought a Croft 25 linestage preamp and used it with a Croft RIAA R phono stage. This would better all the Croft preamp including the RS but is only a benefit particularly for vinyl although you would stil have a linestage for digital . If this is important then maybe a 25R linestage and Croft RIAA R.

Lots of choices!

[Audio Al]

I had a 25 Micro basic that I used with a Ortofon step up and my Shelter 5000 MC cart into the croft phono stage , Very good
I now have a 25R and it is a step up in performance

Glen has a long history with design and manufacturing , Cant go wrong really :)

Does he do USA voltage ?

[Frazeur1]

Hi Jimbo and Al! Jimbo, I am doing well, thank you! I appreciate both of your replies here. I usually do watch for your posts Jimbo, as we have talked in the past about Croft things. Al, Glen does provide us US folk with 120 vac/60 Hz supplies, I currently still own a pair of Series 7 amps, I sold my Micro 25 a few months ago.

I do understand the step up as one goes up the range, it should bring more musicality, at least that would be the goal anyway. I am more interested in the stand alone phono stages for the most part, but I have seen where your Micro 25R was used in a bake off as only a phono stage, Jimbo. Interesting, this opens up possible dual duty depending on setup(s).

Some of my thoughts or even questions too are more from the electronic side, as I do understand the R versions are tube regulated, but I often wonder how this translates to sonic quality, as I would assume(?) the plain Micro 25 is just solid state regulated versus tube? I also realize the power supply is more beefy in the R version, utilizing separate toroids etc.

Again though, I am looking predominantly phono stage here, but considering all my options, especially seeing as I still have my Series 7 amps, natural partner for the Croft phono or phono-pre as required. More thoughts to come, again, appreciate your input guys!

[Jimbo]

Hi Jimbo and Al! Jimbo, I am doing well, thank you! I appreciate both of your replies here. I usually do watch for your posts Jimbo, as we have talked in the past about Croft things. Al, Glen does provide us US folk with 120 vac/60 Hz supplies, I currently still own a pair of Series 7 amps, I sold my Micro 25 a few months ago.

I do understand the step up as one goes up the range, it should bring more musicality, at least that would be the goal anyway. I am more interested in the stand alone phono stages for the most part, but I have seen where your Micro 25R was used in a bake off as only a phono stage, Jimbo. Interesting, this opens up possible dual duty depending on setup(s).

Some of my thoughts or even questions too are more from the electronic side, as I do understand the R versions are tube regulated, but I often wonder how this translates to sonic quality, as I would assume(?) the plain Micro 25 is just solid state regulated versus tube? I also realize the power supply is more beefy in the R version, utilizing separate toroids etc.

Again though, I am looking predominantly phono stage here, but considering all my options, especially seeing as I still have my Series 7 amps, natural partner for the Croft phono or phono-pre as required. More thoughts to come, again, appreciate your input guys!

I understand your dilemma Tim in that it would be difficult to actually hear a 25R on trial over there unless you have a dealer willing or able to lend you one. It is tricky to give you a sonic picture but the regulated preamp simply have better control of the sound and paint a slightly different picture than the none regulated. If you also factor in NOS valves then you have a piece of equipment that can be tailored to the sort of sound you like as the vs,vets in the regulation stage also influence the sound. LikeI said I would consider a separate phono stage and separate preamp as Glenn has assured me this is the way to go for ultimate sound quality.

[Frazeur1]

Certainly an RIAA R version makes more sense for me, I cannot lose sight of the overall picture here. I have to admit, the turntable purchase came more as a surprise, not really a plan in the works when I bought the German LinnenberG gear and speakers. So it sort of put a bit of a “kink” in the works, a good one I think, but one I am thinking-or trying to do very carefully!

Anymore, it is becoming increasingly difficult to listen to some gear, phono equipment in general, in ones own system. And with Croft, there are several outlets for it, but not easy to get home demos of it. I am getting a bit anxious though, as the Holbo turntable really is a fantastic piece, and I feel pretty humbled to have it.

Thanks again for your input. Oh, also, I would say that my main focus for my system has been digital replay, and with the Innuos and Telemann DAC, it is very good, but phono can live right along with it, no problem!

[Jimbo]

Certainly an RIAA R version makes more sense for me, I cannot lose sight of the overall picture here. I have to admit, the turntable purchase came more as a surprise, not really a plan in the works when I bought the German LinnenberG gear and speakers. So it sort of put a bit of a “kink” in the works, a good one I think, but one I am thinking-or trying to do very carefully!

Anymore, it is becoming increasingly difficult to listen to some gear, phono equipment in general, in ones own system. And with Croft, there are several outlets for it, but not easy to get home demos of it. I am getting a bit anxious though, as the Holbo turntable really is a fantastic piece, and I feel pretty humbled to have it.

Thanks again for your input. Oh, also, I would say that my main focus for my system has been digital replay, and with the Innuos and Telemann DAC, it is very good, but phono can live right along with it, no problem!

The Innuos is certainly the way I would go if I ever embraced digital. I am too much of a vinyl head though and this maybe someway off. The RIAA R Croft with a good turntable and a cartridge like the 2M Black would be a very tough act for any digital system to better.

[Audio Al]

In my opinion digital is still way off a well set up vinyl system ;)

[Frazeur1]

Al, maybe, it is one of those things I do not much care to get into, too many things can make or break either one. But I certainly do understand each ones stance and fervor for their choices. I am more or less a fan of balance, both can exist side by side, neither one has to be worse or better really.

My overall reason for saying my main focus is and has been digital, is that I have very few albums at present(a rather nasty divorce 14 years ago took away a very nice analog system and record collection, no analog since then until now)That will change of course in due time. Also, I am sure once I pick back up on the analog side of things, focus will shift some, but again, balance to me is somewhat important, at least to me. I will enjoy both formats either way.

Thanks again for both yours and Jimbo comments thus far. Appreciated as always!

[Audio Al]

Tim

I do understand you comment , Digital = ease of use and sound be it good or no so good

Vinyl more engageing , a deeper richer involving sound that draws you in ;) sound thats not trimmed and compressed

I was divorced in 2003 , boy am I happy now :D

[Smegger68]

I can only add my experiences with the basic RIAA phono stage. I originally bought it to partner the Decca London Super Gold I was using at the time, having heard that Glenn designed his stages around them. Indeed, this pairing made a very acceptable noise indeed :)

When I sold the Decca I have to admit I wondered if I'd be keeping the Croft but as it turns out it's way more than a one trick pony. It's currently making very nice tunes with my SPU (by way of an Ortofon SUT) and in fact I prefer this combination to the Decca.

My stage was modified by Glenn a few years ago to include 2 inputs, he turned it around quickly and even screenprinted the front of the unit around the new switch! I have rolled some PSvane tubes into it and this has brought about a more even handed feel to the sound, the original JJ tubes can be a little rough and ready, though exciting and involving.

Hope this helps. Ask me anything you can think of :)

[Frazeur1]

Thanks James, appreciate your comments. Buying Croft over here in the US is decent, at least we can get them. Getting them modified/upgraded can be tough, a trip back across the pond. The basic RIAA and the "R" versions are what we have available, which is good. Probably for me, if I take the Croft approach, it will be either of these two models.

[Frazeur1]

Guys and gals(?), Croft phono stages are still in the mix, I am also hoping to maybe have a listen to the TRON Convergence MM stage as well. Just talked with US importer, Jeff Catalano from High Water Sound in NYC about pricing and such. I guess He and Graham are working on US pricing so I should know at least where that stands soon. Of course what I have read about GT’s gear, seems to be another fantastic option As well. More to come in due time....

[Bigman80]

Guys and gals(?), Croft phono stages are still in the mix, I am also hoping to maybe have a listen to the TRON Convergence MM stage as well. Just talked with US importer, Jeff Catalano from High Water Sound in NYC about pricing and such. I guess He and Graham are working on US pricing so I should know at least where that stands soon. Of course what I have read about GT’s gear, seems to be another fantastic option As well. More to come in due time....Hi,

I've heard the Tron Convergence, I had one here for about 4 weeks. I've also heard Croft offerings and I have to say, the Croft is where I'd spend my money.

I know it's difficult when you can't get a home demo, every one has their opinion. Mine is, you won't go wrong with the Croft, whichever box you choose.

Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk

[Frazeur1]

Curious, I assume it was the MM Convergence stage? No doubt I love Croft too, and obviously still in the running. If I can get an at-home trial before I buy on the Tron, I will. It is a shame I cannot get the same for Croft here. To be honest, I doubt I would have an issue with either one, but due diligence and all that business! Thanks for your note/comment, much appreciated!

[Bigman80]

Curious, I assume it was the MM Convergence stage? No doubt I love Croft too, and obviously still in the running. If I can get an at-home trial before I buy on the Tron, I will. It is a shame I cannot get the same for Croft here. To be honest, I doubt I would have an issue with either one, but due diligence and all that business! Thanks for your note/comment, much appreciated!I am sure it had SUTs inside but I'd need to double check.

Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk

[Frazeur1]

I know the Convergence MC has transformers in it. I haven’t seen a MM one yet, which is what I need for my Nagaoka. I will probably be staying with an MM for a good while, maybe forever....

[fiddlemaker]

Just a though you would do even better if you bought a Croft 25 linestage preamp and used it with a Croft RIAA R phono stage. This would better all the Croft preamp including the RS but is only a benefit particularly for vinyl although you would stil have a linestage for digital . If this is important then maybe a 25R linestage and Croft RIAA R.

Lots of choices!

Is an RIAA-R plus line-stage-only 25R really better than a 25R with integrated phono? I can see a perceived benefit in having separate PSUs for phono and line stages, but does it actually sound better?

[hifi_dave]

Yes, it does.

[Jimbo]

Is an RIAA-R plus line-stage-only 25R really better than a 25R with integrated phono? I can see a perceived benefit in having separate PSUs for phono and line stages, but does it actually sound better?

Yep, don't take my word for it, that was from Glenn himself. A mate of mine has a RIAA R and he said it was way better than his RS.

[Frazeur1]

And here I was just talking myself into just buying the simple Croft RIAA, then this talk of the RIAA R crops up again....blimey. Haha! At some point I will just take a leap and land and try to be satisfied!

Thanks again for the good read, and for the comments given by all of you, food for thought as always!

[hifi_dave]

Not always the way with Hi-Fi but as you go up the Croft range, they do sound better. So, excellent as the RIAA is, the RIAA-r is even better.

[Frazeur1]

Yes, Dave, as you said, maybe I just need to give myself another time out or good talking to! Sad part on this side of the pond, difficult at best to just get a home demo of the two to hear the differences for myself to know is it worth the extra $895 for the R version...then that amount also puts things into another territory of other stages that might get considered too. I have been keeping eyes on the used market too, but it is hit and miss. Patience I guess is the order of the day, week, months....aaaaggghhh!