Adventures into turntable differences (or how to become a NURD!)

[AJSki2fly]

There was something just not quite right with the sound I was getting from my system and I could not put my finger on it. I hope you find the folowing interesting.

So as I am home getting used to the first of 2 new drugs and have the time I thought I would check something out. I decided to get the original Gyrodec platter down from the roof and do some back to back comparisons with the Orbe platter. So I chose a piece of music carefully that had lots of dynamics, bass, drums, cymbals and natural instruments. This was 2 tracks from St Germain - Tourist, So Flute and the beginning 30 secs of La Goutte D’Or.

Initial Listening findings

A bit of a shock the system with the Orbe platter sounded a bit flat and something was missing in definition, how could this be for an upgrade?:( Across the instruments it all sounded a bit dull to be honest, and the bottom end sound a little woolly, I’m struggling to describe it properly, but it still was not quite right IMO.:scratch:

I carefully switched over to the Gyrodec platter and put on the same tracks. Hey an instant change and the music suddenly came to life, but why surely the platter cannot have such a dramatic effect and everything I had read was that the Orbe platter was supposed to be an improvement, although some do not like the it overall.

Investigations

I remembered at a friends recently a brief discussion on the affects of arm height on the affect on sound and so I decided to investigate this. As I had the Gyrodec platter on the turntable I measured to see if the arm was parallel to the record surface and I found it was about 0.25mm down at the rear. Now something I had already noticed was that I had slightly less thread available for the record clamp with this setup(with the same record). So this seems to indicate that the Gyrodec platter is slightly higher on the bearing. :hmm:

I switched over to the Orbe platter and put on the same old record to measure the arm height and now I found that the arm was riding slightly high at the rear, about 0.3mm. So could this be the answer in the quite significant difference in sound. When I originally fitted the Orbe platter I thought I had checked and adjusted the arm height carefully, but maybe I got it wrong. :scratch:

Next Steps

So what to do first? I adjusted the arm height very carefully with the Orbe platter in situ. On with the same tracks, yes there was a significant improvement, piano better defined (I could now pick out notes making chords), drums and cymbals had better attack, bass was better defined.

I decided to ring Michell and check that I could confidently use the spindle that came with the Orbe with the Gyrodec platter and they confirmed that you can. During the conversation I mentioned not having much thread with the clamp to do it up. They asked if I was using the small ring(about 2" diameter) which came with the Orbe platter and fits in centre, which I have been, they said that this was to be only used with thin vinyl as it then allows the clamp to pushdown on the record and clamp it down to the platter. I am not sure if this is in the instructions with an Orbe upgrade or with an Orbe for that matter, so a heads up if you have one of these.:thumbsup:

Is the Orbe now better than the Gyrodec one?:scratch:

To establish this I decided to refit the Orbe yet again and adjust the arm height specifically for it and re-listen. Result was that they now sounded very similar to each other but I thought that there are subtle differences.

I carried on with several listens, using more tracks and switching backwards and forwards between the platters. :confused:

Final Conclusion

Well its all very difficult to assess, but I have come to form an opinion based of the overall sound and musical impression coming from the system. I would say that the Gyrodec platter sounds more lively and gives the impression of a more open sound/feel to the music, maybe slightly more forward. The bass is still there in a controled and good way. With the Orbe platter it gives a rendition that can only be described as slightly laid back, perhaps a bit more low end bass (but very subjective to judge) , everything is there and it still sounds good just subtly different.

Which is better, a very hard question to answer, however I have decided to stay with the original Gyrodec platter for now, maybe I will tire of it and I will revert to the Orbe one, we shall see.

Lessons Learned

So one thing this has taught me is that small changes to a turntable setup can have big impact, getting the arm height right for example made a big improvement to the sound with both platters, even though I thought I had it right it wasn't. I suspect that with some careful tinkering with cartridge alignment and arm alignment that an optimum musical rendition could be reached, I did check them with the supplied Michel tools and it looks good. However I think I would like some very accurate measuring tools to undertake and know it was perfect.:)

With the risk of opening possible old discussions which is best pure Gyrodec or upgraded Gyrodec with Orbe platter upgrade I would be interested in any opinions on this.

Also any advise on accurate set up of a Gyrodec with SME IV would be useful.

[karma67]

what cartridge are you using?
yes small changes DO make a difference,there is a sweet spot if its vta/sra related,what are both platters made from? that can also influence the sound.

[NRG]

I seem to recall the platters are quite different in weight, maybe the suspension needs resetting.

[Vrajbasi]

Platter materials truly make a big difference, I have heard multiple platters and the differences can be staggering, golden rule everything makes a difference in Vinyl replay weather we like the difference is one thing. I know someone who has had 15 platters individually made for his sme model 30 currently using a stainless, ebony platter and the differences are huge. Manufacturers usually have limited resources to experiment with all the options always thought that there could be a good market for platter upgrades for a sort off mass market deck like the michell.

[AJSki2fly]

what cartridge are you using?
yes small changes DO make a difference,there is a sweet spot if its vta/sra related,what are both platters made from? that can also influence the sound.

The cartridge is a Michell Cusis which is effectively a Benz Micro Glider S but is housed in a different composition body.

[AJSki2fly]

Platter materials truly make a big difference, I have heard multiple platters and the differences can be staggering, golden rule everything makes a difference in Vinyl replay weather we like the difference is one thing. I know someone who has had 15 platters individually made for his sme model 30 currently using a stainless, ebony platter and the differences are huge. Manufacturers usually have limited resources to experiment with all the options always thought that there could be a good market for platter upgrades for a sort off mass market deck like the michell.

Yes I think your quite right, both look to be made of the same acrylic/vinyl platter but the Orbe version has a deep skirt instead of the brass weights that the Gyrodec is famous for. The Gyrodec SE weighs in at 10KG and the Orbe SE is 13.5 kg, so an increase of 3.5kg primarily due to the platter.

In answer to NRG's question, yes I did check the suspension with each platter and it was good.

The difference between the two is quite interesting, my understanding is that the prime difference between and an ungraded Gyrodec SE (ie with Orbe platter and damping) an Orbe SE is the Spider double chassis, suspended pendulum subchassis, whereas the Gyrodec has Spider chassis, suspended stable subchassis. It would be very interesting to be able to compare the two back to back to see if the full Orbe actually was better.

[Vrajbasi]

Yes I think your quite right, both look to be made of the same acrylic/vinyl platter but the Orbe version has a deep skirt instead of the brass weights that the Gyrodec is famous for. The Gyrodec SE weighs in at 10KG and the Orbe SE is 13.5 kg, so an increase of 3.5kg primarily due to the platter.

In answer to NRG's question, yes I did check the suspension with each platter and it was good.

The difference between the two is quite interesting, my understanding is that the prime difference between and an ungraded Gyrodec SE (ie with Orbe platter and damping) an Orbe SE is the Spider double chassis, suspended pendulum subchassis, whereas the Gyrodec has Spider chassis, suspended stable subchassis. It would be very interesting to be able to compare the two back to back to see if the full Orbe actually was better.

i know the Michell turntables quite well having owned a few and have a Neighbour who has the orbe se and gyro se both with sme arms, we have compared the two deck and also compared the gyro se with HR Supply with the orbe platter to the full blown orbe se. The gyro se has a sense of enthusiam and dynamic range which is quite nice, the orbe platter does add body and a sweeter midrange its rather nice. The orbe se sounds very different its got a sense of pace of the gyro but the sound is fuller and bass is way way deeper its also got a grip to the sound which is rather special compared to the gyro se, its like the whole soundstage id wider. My friend now keeps the Gyro Se with its brass weight platter and the the orbe as it is. He loves his gyro for the brass weights. He has two sme V arms bought from a dealer in watford who specialises in Sme and has two Koetsu red sig cartridges bought together.

I have to add the two motors sound different as we have swapped them around the materials for the cases are different the orbe motor seems warmer and more solid while the gyro a bit more air.

[AJSki2fly]

i know the Michell turntables quite well having owned a few and have a Neighbour who has the orbe se and gyro se both with sme arms, we have compared the two deck and also compared the gyro se with HR Supply with the orbe platter to the full blown orbe se. The gyro se has a sense of enthusiam and dynamic range which is quite nice, the orbe platter does add body and a sweeter midrange its rather nice. The orbe se sounds very different its got a sense of pace of the gyro but the sound is fuller and bass is way way deeper its also got a grip to the sound which is rather special compared to the gyro se, its like the whole soundstage id wider. My friend now keeps the Gyro Se with its brass weight platter and the the orbe as it is. He loves his gyro for the brass weights. He has two sme V arms bought from a dealer in watford who specialises in Sme and has two Koetsu red sig cartridges bought together.

I have to add the two motors sound different as we have swapped them around the materials for the cases are different the orbe motor seems warmer and more solid while the gyro a bit more air.

Thanks for your thoughts on the Orbe versus Gyrodec, your descriptions n is much as I thought. Yes I agree that the bass is deeper with the Orbe platter on a Gyro, but I wonder if this in the Gyrodec in some way clouds the naturalness of a standard Gyro. I listened to a few more albums today and all I enjoyed musically, but one or two tracks seemed slightly light, maybe I’m missing the warmth of the Orbe platter. I’ll leave things as they are for know and then maybe switch back and have another listen.

By the way the dealer in Watford is a mutual friend.

Regards
Adrian

[Vrajbasi]

You might find adjusting the VTA for each platter helps to bring out the best like not sticking to parallel eg up and the back and slightly less tracking force for the orbe platter and lower back for the gyro, analogue is weird all these difference make a big impact on the sound. As far as natural sound goes we all perceive differently I see warmer which can mean a fuller bass as more natural while some might see life and dynamics as more natural.

Good luck with your experiments and hope you find audio nirvana for me its been a life long struggle.

Ahh yes the dealer in watford has been supplying me high end turntables since 1993 not a conventional dealer to say the least he has a vast amount of experience and knowledge in the rare and unknown and almost tried everything and can source the rarest hi end turntables on this planet, found me my mint Micro Seiki 8000mk2 230v all most impossible these days and a Mint EMT 927. Try not to visit too often these days as could prove expensive have a Kodo Beat turntable on loan at the moment have to stop trying all these goodies.

Regards

Nari

[AJSki2fly]

You might find adjusting the VTA for each platter helps to bring out the best like not sticking to parallel eg up and the back and slightly less tracking force for the orbe platter and lower back for the gyro, analogue is weird all these difference make a big impact on the sound. As far as natural sound goes we all perceive differently I see warmer which can mean a fuller bass as more natural while some might see life and dynamics as more natural.

Good luck with your experiments and hope you find audio nirvana for me its been a life long struggle.

Ahh yes the dealer in watford has been supplying me high end turntables since 1993 not a conventional dealer to say the least he has a vast amount of experience and knowledge in the rare and unknown and almost tried everything and can source the rarest hi end turntables on this planet, found me my mint Micro Seiki 8000mk2 230v all most impossible these days and a Mint EMT 927. Try not to visit too often these days as could prove expensive have a Kodo Beat turntable on loan at the moment have to stop trying all these goodies.

Regards

Nari

Funny you should mention the VTA, I looked and thought about it long and hard this morning and decided to do some serious listening. Firstly with the standard Gyrodec platter, with chassis damped and using the Michell Orbe screw down record weight. Then with the Orbe platter fitted with careful attention to the VTA of the arm. I measured the front and rear arm height very carefully in each instance and ensured that it was parallel in each case to get a like for like comparison. Having selected the tracks I wanted to use for the review the NURD in me created a spreadsheet where I could score each track I listened to. Sad I know but at least I tried to review it subjectively, not on I thought it sounded like that now it sounds like this appraisal. Anyway the results are below. When scoring I did truly try to be honest and subjective based on what I heard.

To sum up I think you are right, the other day I heard life and dynamics in the standard Gyrodec and thought this was a better rendition of the music, but actually as I listened to the standard setup I thought it was lacking something. Hence why I decided to review systematically. The Gyrodec with the Orbe platter has more bass and low midrange, all the detail is still there as with the basic Gyrodec setup, however the introduction of the Orbe platter gives the final rendition a more rounded/complete sound IMO. So I have changed my mind.

The Watford dealer must have been pretty young back in 1993, I only met him 2.5 years ago on recommendation by a friend. He did persuade me to purchase my deck arm, cartridge and Renaisance RA01 amps. I found him very helpful, and the resulting system with the Impulse H2 speakers I find is very musical. I speak with him every so often and have managed to resist changing/upgrading, she who must be obeyed does not appreciate the holy grail of musical fidelity much less the cost of achieving it.

Regards

Adrian

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/Hifi%20Review/Iniitial%20Review_zpseubwsesg.png

http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o708/AJSki2fly/Hifi%20Review/GyrodecOrbe%20Platter_zpsnppzryox.png

[Spectral Morn]

Curious as to who the Watford Dealer is ? I guess its Unique Audio.

[Vrajbasi]

Curious as to who the Watford Dealer is ? I guess its Unique Audio.

Yes Mik at Unique Audio he was around 17 back in 1993 I think, a friend recommended him who had been dealing with him since he was 14 crazy young age to be selling hifi. Unique Audio was based in Neasden working from he grandmothers house at the time. His place is like an aladin's cave these days all sorts of crazy esoterica. I am always scared to visit as its always tempting as he has so many rare and wonderful bits he never lists. I always tell him he is his biggest customer as he is very attached to alot of the gear.

[Spectral Morn]

Yes Mik at Unique Audio he was around 17 back in 1993 I think, a friend recommended him who had been dealing with him since he was 14 crazy young age to be selling hifi. Unique Audio was based in Neasden working from he grandmothers house at the time. His place is like an aladin's cave these days all sorts of crazy esoterica. I am always scared to visit as its always tempting as he has so many rare and wonderful bits he never lists. I always tell him he is his biggest customer as he is very attached to alot of the gear.

Interesting.

[Vrajbasi]

Interesting.

Neil you have a fine collection of turntables and tonearms spoilt for choice

[YNWaN]

I’m nod a big fan of high mass platters like the Orbe uses and have also heard that the Gyro platter sound better. The Orbe platter has, in my opinion, a slightly recessed presence range and this makes it sound more powerful in the bass. I don’t think the actual quality of the bass is as good though. You will also find that exactly how much you tighten the clamp makes a big difference....

[JohnG]

As you have some time on your hands to tweak the arm alignment, another choice of set up worth consideration is which cartridge/arm alignment geometry to go for. There are printable Protractor Downloads available.
The different philosophies will have varying influences on how the stylus performs in the groove.
Taking the time to set up a geometry that appeals to you the most, can be a worthwhile exercise.
I was in attendance, when I had this exercise carried out for me recently by another AoS Member, and I found it very satisfactory, insightful and rewarding.
The chosen geometry for my cartridge/arm, is now stored as a, Laminated, Print of the Protractor.

[AJSki2fly]

I’m nod a big fan of high mass platters like the Orbe uses and have also heard that the Gyro platter sound better. The Orbe platter has, in my opinion, a slightly recessed presence range and this makes it sound more powerful in the bass. I don’t think the actual quality of the bass is as good though. You will also find that exactly how much you tighten the clamp makes a big difference....

Yes I had heard that too, but now I have paid attention to the SME arm setup, it definitely does not have a recessed presence, maybe the Cusis cartridge is doing its magic here. I have noticed that having the clamp reasonably tight does improve soundstage and definition. I found with the Gyrodec platter that the bass was there but not as deep or detailed, it definitely improved with the Orbe platter, for instance the bass on Hugh Masekela is better defined and come across clearer in the mix, and tonally the drums on the Ravi Shankar are better. Im listening to Alan Parsons - Pyramid - In the Lap of the Gods at the moment and the bell and organ crash sound great.

[AJSki2fly]

As you have some time on your hands to tweak the arm alignment, another choice of set up worth consideration is which cartridge/arm alignment geometry to go for. There are printable Protractor Downloads available.
The different philosophies will have varying influences on how the stylus performs in the groove.
Taking the time to set up a geometry that appeals to you the most, can be a worthwhile exercise.
I was in attendance, when I had this exercise carried out for me recently by another AoS Member, and I found it very satisfactory, insightful and rewarding.
The chosen geometry for my cartridge/arm, is now stored as a, Laminated, Print of the Protractor.


Thanks for the advice, I have the SME arm protractor, but I will look into the setup for a Micro Benz Glider S which is the basis of my Cusis cartridge. I will have a search on the net to see what I can find out. If you can advise where I can find one that would be great?

Thanks for the advise.

Adrian

[AJSki2fly]

Yes Mik at Unique Audio he was around 17 back in 1993 I think, a friend recommended him who had been dealing with him since he was 14 crazy young age to be selling hifi. Unique Audio was based in Neasden working from he grandmothers house at the time. His place is like an aladin's cave these days all sorts of crazy esoterica. I am always scared to visit as its always tempting as he has so many rare and wonderful bits he never lists. I always tell him he is his biggest customer as he is very attached to alot of the gear.

Mik certainly has a persuasive way with him, but what I really like is his passion for music, he really helped me get the best I could for my money even though I was probably at the lower range of gear that he sells. His recommendation of the cartridge and the LFD phono-stage was a very good one, as to my ears I have a very musically sounding system. It rarely disappoints, although if I put on a bad record then it is quite unforgiving as it plays what is there. Mik has some lovely equipment and I found it very interesting to listen to his top end system.

Regards,

Adrian

[Vrajbasi]

Mik certainly has a persuasive way with him, but what I really like is his passion for music, he really helped me get the best I could for my money even though I was probably at the lower range of gear that he sells. His recommendation of the cartridge and the LFD phono-stage was a very good one, as to my ears I have a very musically sounding system. It rarely disappoints, although if I put on a bad record then it is quite unforgiving as it plays what is there. Mik has some lovely equipment and I found it very interesting to listen to his top end system.

Regards,

Adrian

I own a Modified LFD battery disc preamp its been through many revisions and vast amounts of dosh I love it to bits its one of my most loved bits of kit.

[AJSki2fly]

I own a Modified LFD battery disc preamp its been through many revisions and vast amounts of dosh I love it to bits its one of my most loved bits of kit.

Yes I think my hybrid LFD MMC would be hard to beat as well without spending lots.

[sbank]

OP, dude, you are totally missing the answer here. Many adjust the VTA on every LP, at least to the level of knowing what VTA sounds best on a standard pressing, a 180g thicker pressing vs. a 200g pressing. Some of those records, guessing the Eva Cassidy, for example are thicker and should have the back of the arm higher than a thinner pressing. Also every cartridge/cantilever is mounted at a slightly differing angle another reason to adjust the arm height by ear, since some setups will sound better a tad higher or lower than parallel to the platter. This is why so many top arms have repeatable or even better on-the-fly VTA adjusters. Once you pick your platter don't be shy about adjusting in either direction as you play thicker/thinner albums. Generally low back of arm will increase bass; too low and it will start to sound a tad sluggish. Higher in the back will add air and sparkle on the top end; too high in the back will get harsh in the treble and lose a bit off rhythm. That's a gross over-generalization, but you will get the idea.
Also suggest just try experimenting with 2 or 3 LPs of widely varying thickness to get feel for the impact of VTA changes in your rig. Then apply those learnings on everything.

[karma67]

its a common mistake i think to use vta/sra as a tone control,its not,the best way i have found is to use a record with lots going on. i then adjust vta untill i can hear all the instruments nicely separated and in focus,then i make tiny tracking force changes to dial in the sweet spot.
this is the perfect record for this,track 2 https://www.discogs.com/Norman-Blake-2-Tut-Taylor-Sam-Bush-Butch-Robins-Vassar-Clements-David-Holland-Jethro-Burns-Norman-Bl/master/362879

[AJSki2fly]

OP, dude, you are totally missing the answer here. Many adjust the VTA on every LP, at least to the level of knowing what VTA sounds best on a standard pressing, a 180g thicker pressing vs. a 200g pressing. Some of those records, guessing the Eva Cassidy, for example are thicker and should have the back of the arm higher than a thinner pressing. Also every cartridge/cantilever is mounted at a slightly differing angle another reason to adjust the arm height by ear, since some setups will sound better a tad higher or lower than parallel to the platter. This is why so many top arms have repeatable or even better on-the-fly VTA adjusters. Once you pick your platter don't be shy about adjusting in either direction as you play thicker/thinner albums. Generally low back of arm will increase bass; too low and it will start to sound a tad sluggish. Higher in the back will add air and sparkle on the top end; too high in the back will get harsh in the treble and lose a bit off rhythm. That's a gross over-generalization, but you will get the idea.
Also suggest just try experimenting with 2 or 3 LPs of widely varying thickness to get feel for the impact of VTA changes in your rig. Then apply those learnings on everything.

Hello, Thanks for your reply. I think I did understand the issues though as I said in my first post at the bottom "So one thing this has taught me is that small changes to a turntable setup can have big impact, getting the arm height right for example made a big improvement to the sound with both platters, even though I thought I had it right it wasn't."

I do appreciate that different thickness records will impact the height of the rear of the arm and move it up or down depending on thickness and initial set up. I note that you have and SME V arm, are you saying that you adjust the rear arm height every time you move to a different thickness of arm? As far as I'm aware this is not the easiest thing to do on and SME IV or V as it requires the vertical arm clamp to be slackened off, unless I am misunderstanding something? After slackening the arm clamp off I raised or lowered and re-clamped tight, not the easiest thing to do. I set mine up using and old mid thickness LP just in case I caused the arm to skate over the record, its not something I would want to do with a good record for obvious reasons. So yes the set up will be good for some records and not perfect for others.

Regards

Adrian

[sbank]

Yes, your understanding is correct in what I'm suggesting. But depending on your cartridge, some are more sensitive than others in how much a tiny VTA change will affect the sound. Trust your ears and decide how much trouble it's worth to YOU. I have plenty of friends that found a decent mid-point and never adjust it. Another goes so far as to weigh every record on a digital scale, convert the weight to approximate thickness to guide his VTA starting point and once he dials it in for that LP he writes his VTA setting on a sticker placed on the outer sleeve so he knows where he wants arm height for that record. With his uber fancy Walker turntable every detail is revealed and he has decided that such extreme effort yields worthwhile payback. Different courses...
Agree with the other comment that you don't want to use VTA as a tone control. You should be able to find an optimum point where upper end detail is more revealed, sibilants are minimized, yet bass isn't sluggish or muddied. The tonal aspects are simply indicators to help you find the sweet spot.
Lastly, if you intend to leave one VTA setting all the time and most of your more serious listening is thicker reissues, optimize VTA for those; conversely if your go to LPs are mainly thinner originals, optimize for those. Cheers,

Spencer

[mikeyb]

Rega don't even worry about vta.

[karma67]

Rega don't even worry about vta.

yep a silly choice imo as cartridges are not all the same size in height.

[DSJR]

Neither does digital, but I'm missing the point here aren't I? :D

The stylus compliance can be used to adjust VTA with tracking weight. Linn claimed the lowish compliance Troika could, with 1/10 gramme tracking force difference, be the same as 1.5mm up or down at the pivot. I did some playing at the time and you know what? In this instance Linn weren't wrong!!!

Many far eastern sourced cartridges have too steep a rake angle on the diamond too, which can increase measured, if not audible, distortions. Vinyl is such a minefield of bodges, 'just' concentrating on VTA is seriously a waste of time imo and you may just find that once a modern stylus profile (even ML and modern Shibata types) are set properly, it'll work with a lot of records (it certainly doesn't seem to with stock ellipticals and any conical stylus I've played with).

But then, we audio-peeps love to play and adjust and play some more, as it's half the fun for us ain't it? half these differences can also be small volume changes too and once, I was surprised to get all subjective over two sound files played me, the only difference being the second file had one channel increased by half a db...