Behringer Ultracurve DEQ2496

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I have orderd one of these today

http://www.lemarchanddesons.com/prive/affiche_donnee.php?id=74550

ooooo butonnns :)

i know a few of you have them hiden away in your systems... any tips?

im going to try it as a dac
im going to experiment with adjusting for my room with the parametric eq (shuush marco, i dont want to hear it ;) )

i have also orderd a behringer emc-8000 mic (and cable) and some nutrik adapters to allow me to put it between my current dac and pre, or majik ds and pre .. or even between pre and power... any thoughts on that?

what other features do people use

im quite looking forward to some intesive tweakery over the days and weeks to come... should keep me quiet for a bit
(this is why i have been so desparately trying to flog stuff...

by the way if anyone is interested - i got it from here at this price
http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/Behringer-ULTRACURVE-PRO-DEQ2496.html which is frankly amazing concidering they are usually £100 more than that... i managed to get all the bits i need for less than the full price of a new one!!

[Dave Cawley]

Got one, looks brilliant...........

Makes a fantastic door stop

Dave (honest)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ha! Brill!

Well it's quite long, so I guess it could keep drafts out too ;)

[Dave Hewitt]

Hi
Had one of these for a spell,it was pretty crap between pre and power but very good in digital mode if not overly complex to use, but could certainly alter the sound of a system to good effect.But the novelty soon wore off.
Dave.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

My intention was to use it as a digital device .. But couldn't afford the neutrik adapter I needed to do so... Il bare that in mind - I did figure using between pre and power might not be the wisest option concidering the pre and power I have and the fact they were designed to work with each other...
I'm pretty certain I'm not gonna loose much on it if I don't get on with it, although I am quietly confident it might provide me with some advantage ... Or at least insight in to what effect my room is having on my system...

[markf]

Rather than using it between your pre and power amps just put it in your tape loop, that
way you can easily switch it in and out.

[dave2010]

From the same site, looks like they have AD DA converters - http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/Behringer-ADA8000-A-D-and-D-A-Converter-ADA-8000.html - though currently out of stock. Any good?

[leo]

Oh Hamish! what you like :lolsign:

Should provide you with a bit of fun I guess, I've yet to hear any room correction device which didn't make things actually sound overly processed.
You may of course love it so ignore us moaning buggers.
Let us know how you get on;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

can't do any harm trying can it :)

[John]

tried one a few years back certainly altered the sound but not in a good way Let us know how u get on

[Dave Cawley]

They are great fun, and you will enjoy your time with it. But as you correctly noted, you need two minimum for a draft excluder.

Regards

Dave

[jonners]

I used to use one, and found it pretty transparent when used digitally. Otherwise, you have to put quite a high signal through it to avoid losing resolution - so if your volume control comes before the DEQ it will be hopeless since you will be losing bits.
I found it was best used for reducing bass humps in the room. The Auto-eq function can't do that very effectively; it's fun to play with but ultimately I did without it.
Now that I use open baffle speakers the room boom is much less of a problem so I don't use the Behringer any more.

[smurfbrain]

I almost bought one of them week ago. Only thing that put me off was no info on how to connect to stereo. I'm sure it wont be a problem. It will be interesting to know how you get on with parametric eq to reduce modes up 100zh.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

well, it came today, along with the xlr cable for the mic... but... no mic and no nutrik adapters...booooo... high praise for "why buy new" i ordered it at 4 oclock yesterday and it was with me at 9am!
i switched it on ... blimey, lots of functions and features to wade through... frustratingly it came with a centimetre thick instruction booklet.... in French.... and a pamphlet in English.... ah well i guess il be winging it then?!

.....

this is obviously hugely hugley premature and let me just say i am not at this stage concidering such a thing ... but this strikes me as interesting

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/deqmod_e.html

....

Dave C (and others) just out of interest can you clarify if your poor finding were using it as an analogue device? it would apear the general concensus is that it is ok as a digital device...

[Themis]

Indeed, afaik, the ideal place for the DEQ2496 is between the digital transport and the dac. ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

well that is where i shall place it then.... how much advantage am i likely to obtain from getting impedance adapters? (it only has balanced digital or optical .. )
someone was talking about them the other day... can anyone recall who it was?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

i just realised it has optical inputs and ouputs... wired it between the majik and copper dac... cant do the room eq features obviously, but its quite interesting tweaking with it... this width feature is a bit of fun... sit back and twaek it with your toe for long enough and i recon you could get some kinda cheap "trip" out of it :lol:

[HighFidelityGuy]

I have one of these and the same mic you've ordered.
There is a steep learning curve but they're actually quite simple to use once you've got your head round it. I'd recommend you read through the manual a couple of times and then focus in on what you actually want to achieve. Also make sure you take your time and fully setup the unit before you get stuck into using it. There are several things you need to make sure are enabled/disabled to make it work well for Hi-Fi use. I forget what some of them are off the top of my head but dual mono mode is something you definitely need enabled. There are lots of features like stereo width and compression that aren't necessary or recommended for hi-fi use, so I'd recommend that you bypass those whole modules in the bypass screen. I currently just have GEQ enabled and use it for some subtle EQ. I may tinker with the parametric EQ soon as that should allow some finer adjustment.

I'd definitely recommend that you only use it between a digital source and dac. Mine sits between my PC and Caiman and is connected with Mark Grant glass core optical cables. In some quick comparisons I did the other day I couldn't tell any difference between listening through the EQ in full bypass mode or to a separate coax connection that bypasses the EQ physically. So I couldn't tell any difference between coax and optical and with or without EQ in place in my setup. Obviously I could tell the EQ was in place once I enabled the GEQ with my custom curve.

I setup my GEQ curve by enabling the pink noise feature and then flicking between the RTA screen and the GEQ screen while the mic was in my usual listening position. This allowed me to gradually tweak the EQ. I found that the auto RTA/EQ feature was very heavy handed and applied ridiculous amounts of boost/cut to some frequencies. I'd only recommend boosting or cutting by a maximum of 3 or 4 dB and always try to cut rather than boost wherever possible. Be especially wary of boosting bass frequencies as this can ask a lot of your amp and could cause damage to speakers. Don't try to EQ out big dips in the frequency response as that never works. EQ is only useful for making small tweaks and it can't replace good acoustics. So I'd also recommend you use the RTA feature to give you a good idea of the shortcomings of your room's acoustics. Then use acoustic treatments like bass traps, absorption and diffusion to solve the main problems. This is something I'm addressing over the next couple of months. My bass traps are in the post. :eyebrows:

It's certainly an interesting tool to play with and I've learnt a lot from using it. I've not experienced this "over processed sound" that gets mentioned often when talking about EQ. The only detrimental thing I've experienced are some phasing issues which can occur when applying EQ. This was mainly during my initial testing though when I was applying more EQ.

Let me know if you get stuck and I'll try to help out.
Good luck! :)

[technobear]

In theory you can download the manual from the Behringer site.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx

In practice they have implemented this in a really stupid way that trips the popup blocker and even if you allow popups it still doesn't work :(

If you have trouble then PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.


As for advice, when doing room correction use 'cut' only, never 'boost'. Dips in the room response are caused by sound wave cancellation and no amount of boost will change this. Only bass traps can fix dips.

[tannoydmt]

The official behringer DEQ2496 manual is not very easy to use in order to set it up correctly the following notes are not mine but I have used this method with good effect on my system, hope this helps some of you, by the way I had my DEQ2496 modified by Audiosmile where the output opamps (i think 6 or 8 are used) is replaced by transformers directly connected to the AKMdac outputs.

Notes on setting up DEQ24/96


1) I plugged the ECM8000 microphone into the RTA input, and place the microphone right where my head would be in the normal listening spot. I measured the distances from the tip of the mic to each of the speakers to make sure the mic was equidistant. The mic was pointed straight ahead to the spot directly between the speakers.

2) This is crucial: I put the Behringer in dual mono mode, NOT stereo link; this lets you EQ each speaker independently. When I first got the thing, I didn't do this, and was getting some pretty crazy results. To do this, press the Utility button, scroll down to Channel Mode and change it to Dual Mono. Don't forget to press the B button to accept the change.

3) Now hit the I/O button. Make sure on page 1 (called "Select Input") that the input is set on "Main In." I think this is the only way to EQ each speaker independently. I initially thought this had to be set to Pink Noise, but in fact you'll get pink noise automatically when you go into Auto EQ mode.

4) Still in I/O mode, on Page 2 (called "Aux/Dig. Out"), select GEQ-PEQ. This will make sure the EQ'd sound is coming out of the Behringer.

5) On Page 3 ("Select RTA Input"), select RTA/Mic.

6) Now press the GEQ button. Flatten the curve, putting all frequencies on 0db. Make sure you do this for both channels, pressing the A button to switch between them.

7) Make sure you've got the proper input sensitivity and phantom power for the microphone you're using. If you're using the ECM8000, I think the default settings should have it covered.

8) Turn up your amp volume fairly loud, and warn your wife that a jet plane is about to land in the living room. Make sure nobody is walking around, or otherwise making noise.

9) Hit the RTA button, and cycle through so that the Auto EQ label shows up next to the B button. Adjust the Max and Range levels so that you'll get a good window on the frequency read out. You want something narrow enough so that you can easily see differences between the frequency levels, but wide enough so that you can see all the peaks.

10) Start the AutoEQ process. Note that you'll have to do this twice, once for each speaker. The pink noise should only be coming out of one speaker at a time. If for some reason noise is coming out of both, you need to change what you're doing.

I like to have "Room Correction" on, which "tilts" the target frequency spectrum from flat to slightly weighted in favor of the low freqs. Just sounds better to me.

I also didn't do any automatic correction below 100Hz. Instead, I manually adjusted them later, after the AutoEQ had flattened everything else.

I also put the noise level at about -1db, so as to avoid clipping. Keep an eye on the level meter and make sure there's no red flashing. If there is, lower the noise level; if there isn't, raise the noise level until there is, then back off slightly.

Note that during the AutoEQ process you can toggle between pages to compare the RTA readout with the adjustments the Behringer is automatically making to the GEQ. You can also switch between "Fast", "Med" and "Slow" to determine how fast it reacts. I like to start it at Fast, then change it to Med after a minute, then to Slow for a minute or so.

I set the Delta Max and Span to their maximum values, and didn't have any problems. Others may have to narrow these parameters, e.g. if you've got a big problem with your room or setup somehow.

At some point, after a few minutes, it should get to the point where the ongoing adjustments are fairly modest, and you can stop the AutoEQ then. Again, note that you have to do this twice, once for each speaker.

After you've run the AutoEQ, go back to the I/O page and change the input to Pink Noise. Noise should be coming out of BOTH speakers now. Then go back to the RTA, and look at the spectrum. You may notice -- as I did -- that it is no longer flat, now that you have both speakers going. I had a dip right around 12khz. I went back into GEQ, and adjusted the EQ (for each channel -- so you have to switch between Left and Right, making the same changes in each), then toggled back to the RTA, back and forth, until it was fairly flat.

Next, I manually adjusted the GEQ below 100Hz to get something fairly flat. (My speakers roll off below 40Hz, so naturally I didn't try to fix that range.) Note that again, you have to use the GEQ on both channels.

Finally, change the input back into your music input, and do some listening. Season to taste; I generally like a little more bass than you get out of a perfectly flat response.

That's it! Practice and experiment with the thing, and eventually it will have your setup sounding *very* sweet. The improvement is quite dramatic, in my case.

It's definitely a good way to spend a few hundred bucks. Compared to switching out interconnects, tubes, etc, where the differences are subtle at best, this is a REALLY noticeable difference. You can hit a button to bypass it all if you like, and compare it to the unprocessed signal. BIG difference.

At this point you should be running the RTA in "Average" mode, which averages out the peaks over time. You should reset it each time you change the GEQ, cycling through from fast to mid to slow and back to average to get a new reading.

Also, one other thing that's very important: After you've set the EQ, you need to make sure your output signal isn't clipping, because you may be adding a substantial amount of gain to the signal.

So go to the Meter page, and switch Source to Output. While you're playing music that you know has a very loud signal, check the outside meters to see if they're clipping at all. (You probably want to leave this on for a long period of time, so that you end up capturing the hottest peaks you can.)

If you're clipping, go to the Utility menu, and set Gain offset to -5db or thereabouts. Then go back to the Meter page and monitor it again for a while. Go back and forth until you are fairly sure you're not clipping, while not taking too much off your signal.

For my EQ, I find -5db to be about perfect. I can play several hours of hot signal, and get peaks at around -0.1db below clipping. Ideally, this is where you want it, assuming you don't have to lower it even more to accommodate your preamp inputs.

I've got my setup sounding really, really good now.

Of course it's a bit of a pain, since I'm still working with speaker arrangement, and you have to reset the thing every time you move the speakers, requiring a good 10 min blast of loud pink noise -- but I'm definitely getting it dialed in.

It's true that it doesn't sound perfect everywhere in the room, but right in the listening spot, it's totally sweet!

[technobear]

Personally I would completely avoid the auto-EQ. It does too much. With all that processing going on right across the audio spectrum, the resulting sound may have a flat frequency response but it is flat, boring and uninvolving to listen to.

Instead, just us the PEQ to flatten the worst two or three room peaks below 100 Hz or so.

You don't even need the RTA to identify these peaks. For a rectangular room just measure the length of the room and divide it into 340.

E.g. if the length of the room is 6 metres, then 340/6 = 56.67 Hz.

There will also be peaks at half and double that frequency.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Excelnt stuff, plenty of info and experience to work with, I'm gonna try it all I think - possibly whilst hannah is at work on tuesday morning - il kick the dogs out into the garden too I think - a aeroplane landing in the living room might shit them up a bit!
Chris, your last comment I find particularly interesting, I have a very basic knowledge of acoustics from sound tech at college and it did occur to me that there would be a logical method of aproach to using it...

So far, I have quite pleasingly discovered that wiering it through optical from the optical out on the majik and into the optical in on either the copper or the Beresford affects the sound quality only very very slightly compared to the direct coax conection, infact with the 2496 applying no effects at all hannah says she could hear any difference (although I was sure there seemed to be a slight increase in grain) I appear to be starting with a pretty much blank canvas, as it were, that should give me a really good idea of how well the thing performs!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Excelnt stuff, plenty of info and experience to work with, I'm gonna try it all I think - possibly whilst hannah is at work on tuesday morning - il kick the dogs out into the garden too I think - a aeroplane landing in the living room might shit them up a bit!
Chris, your last comment I find particularly interesting, I have a very basic knowledge of acoustics from sound tech at college and it did occur to me that there would be a logical method of aproach to using it...

So far, I have quite pleasingly discovered that wiering it through optical from the optical out on the majik and into the optical in on either the copper or the Beresford affects the sound quality only very very slightly compared to the direct coax conection, infact with the 2496 applying no effects at all hannah says she could hear any difference (although I was sure there seemed to be a slight increase in grain) I appear to be starting with a pretty much blank canvas, as it were, that should give me a really good idea of how well the thing performs!

[dave2010]

I'm watching this with interest. Fairly recently I ran a so-called "record evening" for members of my local music society, and that required moving furniture round in the room. Food is often more important than the sound or music we have found, though hopefully we managed to provide both, and in reasonable quality. The audience don't expect ultra high fi, and the seating arrangement does somewhat preclude that. I don't know if many members of the small audience even get anything like stereo, though there's a greater chance in our room than in some other member's rooms, where they incredibly put the speakers along the long wall of somewhat extended rectangular rooms, so you either get the left or right channel, and maybe a very small subset actually hear both speakers.

At our event I put the loudspeakers (bookshelf variety - Sanyo Hi-Fi Ones) up on small tables - maybe not recommended, but useful enough, and the sound was OK. We kept the arrangement for some while afterwards, after removing the additional chairs, so we had a fairly open room, and the sound was really rather good. After a week or so AN other suggested removing the tables and putting the speakers back. This has clearly resulted in a much more bass heavy sound.

Whether it's worth correcting this electronically, or simply buying or making some speaker stands I'm not sure at this time.

My only other experience of room eq is when setting up our Sony Blu Ray, which sends strange sounds whizzing round the room, and measures the time differences. Whether it really makes much difference I'm not sure -- perhaps for making sure the axe murderer really does come from behind :sofa::rolleyes:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

The most entertaining auto cal systems are on the yamaha sound projectors (bars of 20 somthing drivers in a single box that sits under your tv) We can't get them to work in the shop in terms of suround sound affect but people buy them based on the improved tv sound alone. So whne I take them to customers houses and set the auto cal and sound comes from behind them as the auto cal pops and wizzes it gets some very funny looks from them, usually followed by "I thought we were only having the speaker under the tv"

[Primalsea]

Hi Hamish,

If its possible you might have some good results using the unit to correct bass frequencies upto about 300 - 400 hz. Generally this is where the room problems are worst. I'm not sure about digital correction but most people go wrong with heavy handed adjustments. Normally its considered that you shouldn't cut or boost more than 6 dB at the extreme.

[smithy]

Have you used your Behringer as a DAC yet? Lampizator has got got some interesting mods on his website if you are feeling brave.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

id looked at mods.. missed the lamp' site though... its hooked up... i got a royal mail delivery today... on a sunday... very random ... from cpc with my neutriks, but i havent tried it yet... i dont hold out much hope for it bettering my other dac options... but if i do like what it does in my system as a unit i will be concidering having it moddified so the analogue out put is (hopefully) as good as my alternative dacs

[Themis]

Rule #3 : don't make too many changes at the same time in an audio setup. :)

[Nuuk]

I've just completed a user guide for the DEQ2496 used with hi-fi (as opposed to PA). I hope it is of some use. :)

http://www.decdun.me.uk/deq2496.html

[The Vinyl Adventure]

good work!!!!
is that your site is it?
i have spent a good amount of time reading an awful lot of stuff that goes right over my head on that site ... its very informative... good work on that too!!

[John]

Nick really knows his stuff and is a really decent guy and very helpful

[Nuuk]

Thanks guys. I've also spent time on your site Hamish, and must get round to signing up some time! ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

good man! get on it ;)

[Nuuk]

I should say that I am still refining that guide to (hopefully) make it easier to follow. So always check back to see if it is any more understandable! ;)

[dave2010]

nuuk

Very interesting reading. Thanks for doing that. I don't actually have one of those units, and now I'm not sure whether I'd want one or not. Isn't it possible to do all of this in software if audio is done via a computer? Maybe that's not realistic or affordable at the present time. One thing struck me that it's a pity the Behringer unit doesn't seem to have a computer interface, as if it did then presumably one could manage and save the profiles externally. Also, does it have DIN sockets - looks like it from the diagram - the 3 on the back left. Long time since I've seen anything with DIN.

One last point, you mention eliminating EQ points in the bass range if the loudspeakers used can't go that low. Is that really correct? Does eliminating the EQ points impose a filter (notch) on those frequencies - which might be desirable, or does it just not process those frequencies. Apart from the possible damage you mention, isn't it actually quite likely that if you drive a speaker at (say) 15 Hz and it only goes down to 40 Hz, that it'll produce harmonics - perhaps at 60 Hz (maybe also at 45Hz?)? The human ear might still interpret this more or less "correctly". It might make sense to actively manage unwanted frequencies to minimise any such effects.

Good work anyway - thanks for doing it.

[Nuuk]

nuuk

Isn't it possible to do all of this in software if audio is done via a computer?


One thing struck me that it's a pity the Behringer unit doesn't seem to have a computer interface, as if it did then presumably one could manage and save the profiles externally.

Also, does it have DIN sockets - looks like it from the diagram - the 3 on the back left. Long time since I've seen anything with DIN.

One last point, you mention eliminating EQ points in the bass range if the loudspeakers used can't go that low. Is that really correct? Does eliminating the EQ points impose a filter (notch) on those frequencies - which might be desirable, or does it just not process those frequencies.

Apart from the possible damage you mention, isn't it actually quite likely that if you drive a speaker at (say) 15 Hz and it only goes down to 40 Hz, that it'll produce harmonics - perhaps at 60 Hz (maybe also at 45Hz?)? The human ear might still interpret this more or less "correctly". It might make sense to actively manage unwanted frequencies to minimise any such effects.



Yes Dave, I believe that there is computer software to do all the stuff the DEQ2496 does. I did see such a system somewhere but it wasn't cheap!

The DEQ2496 does have a computer interface. It is primarily for updating the software and I don't know what else it can do.

The DIN sockets on the back are midi interface that also has something to do with connecting to a PC or MIDI equipment.

By not equalising the frequencies below what the speaker is capable of, those frequencies are left unaltered, or in the case of using that curved target response, they would be left slightly attenuated.

If you try and EQ down to 20 hz (lowest the DEQ2496 does) you will only hear any harmonics if the speaker itself can produce those frequencies which they can't without damage. ;)

[dave2010]

Nuuk

By not equalising the frequencies below what the speaker is capable of, those frequencies are left unaltered, or in the case of using that curved target response, they would be left slightly attenuated.

If you try and EQ down to 20 hz (lowest the DEQ2496 does) you will only hear any harmonics if the speaker itself can produce those frequencies which they can't without damage. ;)
So surely it'd be better to use the EQ and severely attenuate frequencies around or below the lowest frequency the speaker can reasonably handle, otherwise they'll be passed at 0dB.

Your point about the harmonics is the one I was making earlier.

[Nuuk]

Yes, there may be gains to be had from relieving some speakers of any frequencies below that which they have been designed to handle. And there's nothing to stop you manually setting those sliders as low as you wish.

My system will go down to 20 hz so it's not something that I had given much thought to.