Speaker Toe Angle. Sound stage vs Frequency responce

[Mixc]

Ive noticed that when I set my speaker position, they end up with very little or no toe-in, the sound-stage is stunning,
But the frequency response is slightly reduced for the high frequencies 1khz upward.

(Room layout: there is 5ft between the speakers and 7ft between the speakers and me, the room is 11 by 20ft and the speakers are on the short wall 2ft from the bay window with 3 ft to the side walls)

Has anyone else experienced this?

I use a combination of music, close miked samples and test tones.

Whats your setup process for speaker position?

[Pieoftheday]

Ive noticed that when I set my speaker position, they end up with very little or no toe-in, the sound-stage is stunning,
But the frequency response is slightly reduced for the high frequencies 1khz upward.

(Room layout: there is 5ft between the speakers and 7ft between the speakers and me, the room is 11 by 20ft and the speakers are on the short wall 2ft from the bay window with 3 ft to the side walls)

Has anyone else experienced this?

I use a combination of music, close miked samples and test tones.

Whats your setup process for speaker position?

Plonk em down either side of the system firing straight on then gradually toe in until they sound 'right :)with my current speakers I went back to more or less straight on:)

[Lawrence001]

Firstly why are you taking measurements, do they not sound good to you? It's a slippery slope judging a meter and not your ears.

If you point the speakers straight ahead then you are listening off axis which reduces treble response, the exact amount depending on the speaker's polar response. Do you prefer the sound if they point at you? In which case that's the best way to position them. If you can't live with the reduced stage width then you can look at what absorbent features you have, rugs and curtains are usually the biggest contributors. With an old set up of mine I used to prefer the sound with the curtains closed so closed them every time I did some serious listening. If you can't make any changes here, then there are other options like cables, "supertweeters" (ie not the type that roll off sharply at 20khz but those that contribute noticeably to the audible spectrum), and, perish the thought, tone controls.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Macca]

I also prefer to have the speakers straight on, agree I gives a better soundstage. Not surprising there is less top end that way as the higher in frequency you go the more directional it is.


I also close the curtains behind me, surprising how much more depth this seems to give the soundstage.


Brave man admitting to actually measuring stuff on this forum, expect to see an angry mob of subjectivists armed with torches and pitchforks coming up your driveway soon :)

[Mike Reed]

At least you're firing down the room and not across. Without info. about your speakers it's all guesswork, I'm afraid. 3' away from side walls and only 5' between does sound a bit excessive, although tends to suggest stand-mounts. 2' away from rear wall/bay rends to suggest (rear?) ported. Anyway, 2 x 3' + 5' + speaker width don't add up to 11' so not sure what's happening here. B.t.w., 20 x 11 ' is a lovely audio space for a lot of speakers. The lack of midrange ((1 khz up) might be because of the tweeter dispersion not being wide enough or aimed sufficiently for your 7' (which is a bit too close in that room)

[Mixc]

Plonk em down either side of the system firing straight on then gradually toe in until they sound 'right :)with my current speakers I went back to more or less straight on:)

I do something similar, but the sweet spot is very narrow and i am trying to increase as I also use the setup for films in currently in 4.1 surround.

[struth]

Up and down should not be dismissed either

[Mixc]

"firstly why are you taking measurements, do they note sound good to you?"
I first set the speakers by ear and then, run a setup using a mic for the processor, when i view the graph for the eq it tells me that my response is low at the top end.
They sound lovely, I like experimenting and wondered if others had found the same as me.
PS i turn the EQ off, for films and push the pure direct button for music. (Yamaha CX a5000)
The speakers i have have a reputation for being bright ...
Thanks for the suggestions.

[Yomanze]

My Royd RR3 standpoints are around 5M apart, firing lengthways. This is what the man Joe Akroyd recommended on setup ‘at least twice as wide as usual’. They are quite toed in and away from the wall, because having flat firing is always bad. Sorry to husbands and boyfriends that need their speakers flat either side of a rack or cabinet.

[Mixc]

I also prefer to have the speakers straight on, agree I gives a better soundstage. Not surprising there is less top end that way as the higher in frequency you go the more directional it is.


I also close the curtains behind me, surprising how much more depth this seems to give the soundstage.


Brave man admitting to actually measuring stuff on this forum, expect to see an angry mob of subjectivists armed with torches and pitchforks coming up your driveway soon :)
I was interested how many people opt for sound stage vs response, hence my question.
I always seem to position for sound stage, when i try to aim my speakers at the listening position i lose the stage completely.
I haven noticed it sounding dull and i don't know how accurate the mic is.
I sit about midway down the room, so i don't her the reflections from the rear wall.

And what wrong with measuring ... so long as use my ears aswell ;O)

[Macca]

"firstly why are you taking measurements, do they note sound good to you?"
I first set the speakers by ear and then, run a setup using a mic for the processor, when i view the graph for the eq it tells me that my response is low at the top end.
They sound lovely, I like experimenting and wondered if others had found the same as me.
PS i turn the EQ off, for films and push the pure direct button for music. (Yamaha CX a5000)
The speakers i have have a reputation for being bright ...
Thanks for the suggestions.

Sounds like you pretty much have a 'house curve', a gentle fall in the response level from low bass down to the the top end. That's considered to be the ideal to get a balanced sound in room.


I'm going to post a graph so those of a nervous disposition please look away now:

https://i.imgur.com/PsHfYaN.jpg

[Mixc]

At least you're firing down the room and not across. Without info. about your speakers it's all guesswork, I'm afraid. 3' away from side walls and only 5' between does sound a bit excessive, although tends to suggest stand-mounts. 2' away from rear wall/bay rends to suggest (rear?) ported. Anyway, 2 x 3' + 5' + speaker width don't add up to 11' so not sure what's happening here. B.t.w., 20 x 11 ' is a lovely audio space for a lot of speakers. The lack of midrange ((1 khz up) might be because of the tweeter dispersion not being wide enough or aimed sufficiently for your 7' (which is a bit too close in that room)

The speakers are Focal 1028 be, 3way with both front and rear ports/ the front is at the bottom of the cabinet.
The distances are approx, I have my tv in the Bay with speakers either side around 2ft from the window, and 3 ft from the side walls.
I do sit on the floor most of the time with my back against the settee, most of this is prob due to that.
It funny how you realize things when you talk/ post about them.

[Mixc]

I Haven't tried up/ down yet, always get the level out. Dosent this effect the phase?
Maybe i will try, front down / back up, and see how it sounds.

[struth]

A few mm either way can change things sometimes quite a lot. Usually up but if your sitting low then the other way

[Haselsh1]

My current speakers are the most directional I have ever owned so if the toe in is not spot on then the imaging is just shite. Get it right though and it is as good as my old LS3/5a's. Bloody stunning, and, given the oncoming dark nights, set to get even better ;)

[Mixc]

Sounds like you pretty much have a 'house curve', a gentle fall in the response level from low bass down to the the top end. That's considered to be the ideal to get a balanced sound in room.


I'm going to post a graph so those of a nervous disposition please look away now:

https://i.imgur.com/PsHfYaN.jpg

Ive never heard of a house curve..the graph is not far from what i get, there is about 5db between 1 khz and 16 khz.
There is also a dip in the lower mid so i might try moving the speaker into the bay a bit to give a bit of wall renforcment.

[Ninanina]

I've always found that I have some degree of toe in just to make whatever speaker sound 'right' but that might be because my room is a lot smaller than yours Mick

When I had a room about 22 ft x about 14 ft I owned electrostatics which could be placed 4 foot from the rear wall but still toed in slightly to sound 'right'

[Mixc]

My Royd RR3 standpoints are around 5M apart, firing lengthways. This is what the man Joe Akroyd recommended on setup ‘at least twice as wide as usual’. They are quite toed in and away from the wall, because having flat firing is always bad. Sorry to husbands and boyfriends that need their speakers flat either side of a rack or cabinet.

I did try length-ways and the stage was huge but didnt last long as my settee was blocking the stairs, and there was nowhere for the rear speakers.

[Mixc]

My current speakers are the most directional I have ever owned so if the toe in is not spot on then the imaging is just shite. Get it right though and it is as good as my old LS3/5a's. Bloody stunning, and, given the oncoming dark nights, set to get even better ;)

i found the with these speakers, extremely directional but when they are Just right ...

[Ninanina]

My current speakers are the most directional I have ever owned so if the toe in is not spot on then the imaging is just shite. Get it right though and it is as good as my old LS3/5a's. Bloody stunning, and, given the oncoming dark nights, set to get even better ;)

What speakers do you own Shaun ?

I had a pair of LS3/5a's and they seemed quite fussy about placement and toe in etc

[Primalsea]

Sounds like the off axis response of the higher frequencies drops quite a bit. Along with room resonances the lower frequencies seem more substantial. You could try gradually adding some wadding or foam to the bass ports which might help even things out a bit.

What amp do you use? if its a solid state amp probably no issue there but some valve amps can make the lower frequencies a little more full due to the higher output impedances.

[Mixc]

Hi Paul, Ive tried the port bungs but it killed the bass too much (even with the front ports still open), I think you have a good point, maybe its not that the top end is reduced but the bottom is exaggerated,

Its a valve amp, ARC d115.
The speakers sit on slabs of stone from Bnq possibly slate but not sure, then on carpet, there is also about 2ft below the suspended wooden floor. the floor does resonate at certain frequencies.

[Primalsea]

Sounds like you have a few things conspiring against you. Suspended floors are probably compounding things, Martin’s point about the house sound is well, sound. If you are able to use a computer as a source you could try using a bit of gentle EQ to roll off the bass a little to see if that helps.

[Macca]

Is the system too bassy? I must have missed that bit.

I'm using the much older version of Mick's speakers and I don't find them too bassy although they are sited well out from the back wall.

House curves work because hearing is less sensitive to very low frequencies. So what looks like 'too much bass' on the measurements will in practice sound like a balanced sound. If the system measured flat right across the frequency spectrum most listeners would perceive the system to be lacking bass, or to be too toppy or 'bright' sounding.

[jandl100]

B&Q slabs. Assuming they are the standard concrete-like ones for garden paving.

Try taking them away (I hate them as speaker supports - they seem to add a kind of hollow colouration) and put cones or something under instead to raise the speakers an inch or 2 off the floor.

[Haselsh1]

What speakers do you own Shaun ?

I had a pair of LS3/5a's and they seemed quite fussy about placement and toe in etc

Nina, they are Spendor S3/5R2's. I changed to them from B&W CM8 S2's due to a move of house to a small cottage in a country village but as I use valve amplification the change of speakers was a seriously good one. I think personally that the Spendors are a seriously good match with the valves especially the midrange and of course the imaging. I now have the most incredible 3D imaging, imaging I lost decades ago when I sold my Rogers LS3/5a's.

[Mike Reed]

Hi Paul, Ive tried the port bungs but it killed the bass too much (even with the front ports still open), I think you have a good point, maybe its not that the top end is reduced but the bottom is exaggerated,

Its a valve amp, ARC d115.
The speakers sit on slabs of stone from Bnq possibly slate but not sure, then on carpet, there is also about 2ft below the suspended wooden floor. the floor does resonate at certain frequencies.

Port bungs don't usually improve things as they detract from the speaker design. Tried this on my enormous ProAcs once. I agree that suspended floor can be tricky (though I've not experienced problems when I had them) but you don't mention spikes, which to my mind are essential, whether into the carpet/floor or onto the concrete slab.

Being a speaker/room acoustic Luddite (well, more agnostic), I think you just have to try all permutations of speaker location, positioning and floor coupling until you get it right. I must admit, I've not heard of sound-staging which emphasises certain frequencies, but I tend to go for scale, incorporating good sound-staging.

Not at all sure why you sit on the floor, which surely impacts on the adequate height for upper frequencies. You should definitely have space behind your listening position, even if only 18 inches or so, and it seems that you're not getting that if you've got a sofa/chair bulk right behind you. Bring speakers forward and out a bit and your sitting position to 8 feet or more away. Think you might get a different, more ambient and larger sound-stage. Don't tip speakers just to suit where you sit. Sit to suit the speakers which will be designed to fire horizontally.

[Primalsea]

I must admit that I have had mixed results with port bunging. When it has worked well is when I have added small amounts gradually, listening for a while before each addition. Not really a magic bullet on it’s own.

[Mixc]

My first images posted, will it work, I ask myself.

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/Mixc1/DSC04096_1024_x_768_zpssr7hggir.jpg (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/Mixc1/media/DSC04096_1024_x_768_zpssr7hggir.jpg.html)

The graphs show the graphic eq setting, if you invert you get the frequency response.

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/Mixc1/DSC04100_1024_x_768_zpsosuuig66.jpg (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/Mixc1/media/DSC04100_1024_x_768_zpsosuuig66.jpg.html)

http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/Mixc1/media/DSC04101_1024_x_768_zpsxcvwqqwt.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/Mixc1/DSC04101_1024_x_768_zpsxcvwqqwt.jpg

[Mike Reed]

Very nice, and they seem well placed (but could be wider) but that sofa must be upsetting things, esp. as you have sound absorbing shelves each side. If that's a sub-woofer, I'm surprised, as I'd think those speakers are more than adequate rather than trying to integrate another design (Sorry, don't do sub's).

Move the sofa; it's in the way, i.m.o.

[jandl100]

I suspect Mick's system is as much for AV as audio - lots of DVDs on the shelves and doubtless connected to Netflix or similar.
So subwoofer needed for exploding star cruisers and collapsing buildings etc - maybe it's turned off for music?

[Mixc]

Very nice, and they seem well placed (but could be wider) but that sofa must be upsetting things, esp. as you have sound absorbing shelves each side. If that's a sub-woofer, I'm surprised, as I'd think those speakers are more than adequate rather than trying to integrate another design (Sorry, don't do sub's).

Move the sofa; it's in the way, i.m.o.

Thank you, as you say the settee is in the way.. but it dosent seem to effect things as much as you would think.
There is a chimney opposite the settee just out of view to the right of the photo, this causes me more grief, seems to offset the sound stage.

To the left of the settee, is the door to the room which stops me moving the settee away from the window,
I sit with back against an identical settee.

[Mixc]

I suspect Mick's system is as much for AV as audio - lots of DVDs on the shelves and doubtless connected to Netflix or similar.
So subwoofer needed for exploding star cruisers and collapsing buildings etc - maybe it's turned off for music?

You are correct is a multi purpose system, Ive tried to put it together to be as good for films and digital media as it is for analogue.
I don't use the sub for music, but it is needed for films.
I tried watching films without it at one stage, My surround processor rerouted the bass channel through the front speakers and talk about CONE EXCURSION....... the Focals didn't like it at all even at modest volumes.

When i put a good film on both me and my other half often duck to avoid the shrapnel form those pesky star destroyers exploding or similar.