Any thoughts on Esoteric K-01 or other high-end but older CD/SACD/DAC one boxers?

[montesquieu]

I'm pondering a shake-up on the digital side, after something like six years with no change at all.

What am I missing? I want to get closer to what I get from my vinyl, that musicality and vividness and expression, and ease, and general joy. My current digital setup doesn't quite manage this, but it is far from shabby, its limitations amount to sins of omission rather than active annoyances, and I fear will be hard to significantly improve on. A few DACs I've had in to hear have had nice aspects to them but none have bettered my current setup across the board.

The obvious thing to do is further upgrade my AN DAC, perhaps to run with DHT output tubes and foo-ey internal bits, or replace it with something like a Lampizator or other tube-based high end DAC - essentially look for a bit more than I have now but broadly the same tube-rectified, NOS digital, tube output approach, taken to something approaching the max. This route is still, I guess, the most likely scenario.

But just suppose there was a one-box silver disk player out there that played both redbook and SACD, to their full potential, but also gave access to the internal DAC for external sources including (perhaps - I'm ok with an external receiver) Mac-based USB. One that could approach the AN or Lampi for musicality but also offer convenience of a single box. There are plenty of tubes in my system so they would not be compulsory.

I guess the budget would be about £4-6k which is a fair amount to me but only a fraction of the new/list price of some high-end players from the likes of Esoteric or TAD or Ayre or ARC once they've been been on the market a few years and replaced by the next/whizziest model. For example, I see the Esoteric K-01 is available for this sort of budget, less than a third of the original price. The hassle as ever is that to get these prices probably means buying privately, so limited ability to audition in advance.

So - anyone heard any of these? How are they likely to go down with a redbook-focused vinyl nut who has run only tube-based NOS DACs for the best part of a decade?

I would stick out at a minimum for both SACD and CD, and external DAC access for my rudimentary streaming needs.

I've heard and even owned hyper-real DACs like the Chord DAC 64 I had for a bit - actually this approach can be quite enjoyable in short bursts - but that's not really what I'm after, rather the more organic, un-exaggerated, natural sound I get from my vinyl and the Miyajima cartridges in particular.

Re-reading this it seems to me I need to get out and about a bit and hear some alternative ways of doing things before committing to any particular path. But would be keen to hear from people who have trodden a path back to complex filters and oversampling and so on, having lived with NOS for a while.

[Firebottle]

I shall follow this with interest Tom as I am at the same place. The digital lags behind the vinyl too much.

[Wakefield Turntables]

2nd hand Chord DAVE? Supposed to be of the best all DACs available.

[Spectral Morn]

Esoteric are beautifully made, sound very good but have one serious issue hanging over them like a bad smell, mechanism noise. If you sit near where the transport is, then it’s very likely you will hear the mech spinning a CD and you will definitely hear it spinning a SACD.

I don’t understand why this is so, it should be possible to have a near silent mechanism, but these have it and it’s very annoying. I speak from direct experience. The noise manifests as a very high pitched whine. It’s not the only problem child manifesting this type of noise, as the Marantz SACD players have it as well, even the SA7, not seen or heard the new SA10 to know if it has same issue.

I own an Esoteric P5 and it has the noise, but it’s not as bad as an Esoteric P3 I owned, I moved it on, the noise was awful.

[montesquieu]

2nd hand Chord DAVE? Supposed to be of the best all DACs available.

Would love to hear one. It does divide opinion though. But my query here really refers to one-box options that do red book, DSD/SACD and have a DAC accessible to external sources.

[montesquieu]

Esoteric are beautifully made, sound very good but have one serious issue hanging over them like a bad smell, mechanism noise. If you sit near where the transport is, then it’s very likely you will hear the mech spinning a CD and you will definitely hear it spinning a SACD.

I don’t understand why this is so, it should be possible to have a near silent mecha



Really surprised at this. Is it still the case with the very latest mechanisms? Talking about something that lists at over £16k!

[Spectral Morn]

Really surprised at this. Is it still the case with the very latest mechanisms? Talking about something that lists at over £16k!

It has been an issue for years, if you google esoteric mechanism noise you will read about others who heard it. I have not heard the latest machines, so can’t speak to those but older ones seem to all have it. Now whether you hear it is a thing, some don’t seem to be bothered and maybe that speaks to their high frequency hearing ability. For me the whine was audible from across the room and it intruded into trying to listen to music, so much so it was impossible for me to relax and enjoy SACDs.

This noise is less audible on CD playback, not as high a spin speed as SACD, but it still whines. My theory is it’s the clamp part, the bearings in it, but it might be the mechanism it’s self. That virtually no reviews mention mechanism noise re Esoteric is a reviewing scandal.

[Edward]

For your file based audio and internet streaming Tom what is your audio path?

Maybe there is some optimising that can be done without much expenditure.

Even though I've been to your gaff a few times I did not pay much attention to that aspect.

§

[montesquieu]

For your file based audio and internet streaming Tom what is your audio path?

Maybe there is some optimising that can be done without much expenditure.

Even though I've been to your gaff a few times I did not pay much attention to that aspect.

§

Don't really care much for streaming. I don't like the user experience. I have a Spotify subscription but use that mainly to decide whether something is worth buying or not. I'm planning to look at Roon at some stage but don't expect digital at any stage to overtake my vinyl listening which is 80%+. That's why I'm asking about a high-end disk player.

On the noise issue I've been looking around online at it after Neil's comments and the concern seems widespread even on the top-end machines. My current Audio Note CDT2/II is effectively silent in this regard. (CD only though). This is certainly pause for thought.

[Mr. C]

The K1 is bold, straight to the point, one of the best dynamics available in a player, bass is deep and tight, can be a bit matter of fact in the wrong system, the 'X' upgrade is also a extra you can look at.

Neil is correct though the NEO VRDS mechanisms can be noisy if robust, imho better at sacd than red book.

Having owned a great many Eso's I like what they do, but there are not the complete package imho but a quality player none the less.

Should prove interesting with souped up Tannoy's but you will not be able to fully exploit its true potential, other speakers and amps will achieve this however only you can decide Tom

Also polar opposites to your current AN set up imho

[Edward]

Don't really care much for streaming. I don't like the user experience. I have a Spotify subscription but use that mainly to decide whether something is worth buying or not. I'm planning to look at Roon at some stage but don't expect digital at any stage to overtake my vinyl listening which is 80%+. That's why I'm asking about a high-end disk player.

On the noise issue I've been looking around online at it after Neil's comments and the concern seems widespread even on the top-end machines. My current Audio Note CDT2/II is effectively silent in this regard. (CD only though). This is certainly pause for thought.Do the same comments apply to local file based audio Tom?

§

[montesquieu]

The K1 is bold, straight to the point, one of the best dynamics available in a player, bass is deep and tight, can be a bit matter of fact in the wrong system, the 'X' upgrade is also a extra you can look at.

Neil is correct though the NEO VRDS mechanisms can be noisy if robust, imho better at sacd than red book.

Having owned a great many Eso's I like what they do, but there are not the complete package imho but a quality player none the less.

Should prove interesting with souped up Tannoy's but you will not be able to fully exploit its true potential, other speakers and amps will achieve this however only you can decide Tom

Also polar opposites to your current AN set up imho

Yes I'm aware it should be different to my current AN setup. That's something I'm prepared to look at, a change after six years is precisely what I'm looking for. At retail prices I have over £30k in my vinyl setup (thankfully mostly not bought at retail, though I've still spent a fair whack) so it's not surprising that my digital struggles to get close really.

I'm curious as to why you think my Tannoys driven by the big Radford and EAR 912 would fail to deliver adequate performance. I spent days walking round the Munich high-end show last year, listening to system after system - the bulk of them consisting of identikit highly polished, multi-driver obelisks driven by equally interchangeable lumpen solid state amps, in turn fed by streamers (nary a silver disk in sight) - and was left completely unmoved by the experience. A few of the better horn setups held a bit more interest but again, generally not very engaging musically.

About the only time I heard any amp-speaker combo I would consider better than what I have already were a couple of systems fronted by electrostatics, fed by record players and beefy valve amps, typically in the £100k range. Indeed, highlight of the visit was a fortepiano performance by a deluded Viennese manufacturer who plonked a fortepiano in their dem room and had a well known performer come to play it in between recordings of her performances, with the resulting contrast being somewhat embarrassing for the speaker company.



Do the same comments apply to local file based audio Tom?

§

I have some nice stuff locally and listen to it from time to time. I almost have to remind myself to listen to digital since I have more than enough LPs to keep me entertained, and when I do I turn to my CD collection mainly. For file based replay I use a spare Macbook with large SSD drive into a Mutec MC3+USB as a USB>SPDIF converter, into the AN DAC and it works well, indistinguishably from the CD transport I think.

[Svend N]

Tom, I was in a similar spot as you a couple of years ago - not happy with my CD player's sound, but indifferent to the streaming, PC audio user experience. I have owned a Teac VRDS-10 cd player since new (mid-90s), which shares the same drive as the Esoteric (same company). After much research and inquiry, I decided the drive mech alone was worth keeping the machine for, but it was the other internals that were holding it back. So I went the mod upgrade route and had a very skilled tech replace some key parts. Specifically the clock, op amps, caps, and a few other bits. The transformation in sound quality was astounding, really. It went from thin, two-dimensional, withdrawn and bass-shy, to being full, warm, three-dimensional, dynamic, with real bass extension.

Total cost was C$600 - well worth every penny. BTW, I compared the sound to a new Naim cdp costing about C$3500, and the old Teac sounded far better in every way.

So you might consider this as an option - get a older 2nd hand Esoteric or Teac and consult with a good tech about selectively upgrading key parts. You might end up with a machine that sounds better than a new model. If you search Teac VRDS upgrades, you will find that these machines are a bit of cult thing for modding. There is even a firm in Switzerland offering a turnkey service just for the VRDS models.

As for mech noise, my machine is dead quiet. No issues with that.

Bottom line - the VRDS mech is excellent. With the mods to my machine it rivals or exceeds my vinyl setup (depending on the recording).

Hope this helps, but let me know if you need more info.

Best,
Svend

[CliveG]

Tom
I have had a K-01 in my system for some years. All my CDs and SACDs have been ripped to an Aurender music player and so have not used the transport much but certainly have never experienced any noise issues. It has a range of filter settings which you can tweak away at until you get the performance that suits you and your system. In my view the K-01 gives me 95% of what I get from my 301 and TD124 set ups.

[Spectral Morn]

Tom, I was in a similar spot as you a couple of years ago - not happy with my CD player's sound, but indifferent to the streaming, PC audio user experience. I have owned a Teac VRDS-10 cd player since new (mid-90s), which shares the same drive as the Esoteric (same company). After much research and inquiry, I decided the drive mech alone was worth keeping the machine for, but it was the other internals that were holding it back. So I went the mod upgrade route and had a very skilled tech replace some key parts. Specifically the clock, op amps, caps, and a few other bits. The transformation in sound quality was astounding, really. It went from thin, two-dimensional, withdrawn and bass-shy, to being full, warm, three-dimensional, dynamic, with real bass extension.

Total cost was C$600 - well worth every penny. BTW, I compared the sound to a new Naim cdp costing about C$3500, and the old Teac sounded far better in every way.

So you might consider this as an option - get a older 2nd hand Esoteric or Teac and consult with a good tech about selectively upgrading key parts. You might end up with a machine that sounds better than a new model. If you search Teac VRDS upgrades, you will find that these machines are a bit of cult thing for modding. There is even a firm in Switzerland offering a turnkey service just for the VRDS models.

As for mech noise, my machine is dead quiet. No issues with that.

Bottom line - the VRDS mech is excellent. With the mods to my machine it rivals or exceeds my vinyl setup (depending on the recording).

Hope this helps, but let me know if you need more info.

Best,
Svend

Older Teac mechanisms are different to the more recent machines and I agree older VRDS mechanism are pretty much silent. The noise issue is last 10 years or so - as far as I know. I have owned a P3 and P5 both have the mechanical noise issue, though the P5 is much less noisy, and is acceptable - just. Neither machine are damaged either.

[Bethelcat]

Hi all

I have a K1 and it is not mechanically noisy and a delight to listen to

I have a good vinyl setup (Avid/SME/VdH Colibri) and previously had a heavily modded Proceed CD and outboard NOS 16 chip DAC which all sounded very nice but when listening was never close to vinyl sound. With the K1 that niggle just doesn’t arise and I can revel in the sound of whatever is being played. It has no digital glare, is very transparent and suitably ‘weighty’

Heartily recommended

[Mr. C]

I'm curious as to why you think my Tannoys driven by the big Radford and EAR 912 would fail to deliver adequate performance. I spent days walking round the Munich high-end show last year, listening to system after system - the bulk of them consisting of identikit highly polished, multi-driver obelisks driven by equally interchangeable lumpen solid state amps, in turn fed by streamers (nary a silver disk in sight) - and was left completely unmoved by the experience. A few of the better horn setups held a bit more interest but again, generally not very engaging musically.



Would agree 100% with the Munich assessment, on the Sunday was down time, no working!

I took a couple of customers with me this year and we actually spent time listening to seven systems in the region of 400K Euro's only one made a passable stab at reproducing a musical sound in a natural unforced manner without any form of in built designed signature, quite shocking really. Magico S5 room taking the honors there for worst sound.

Even Kondo had a truly grim sound, though that was down to those appalling stand-mount speakers their were paired with, the Kondo was a real diplomat is all I can say.

My suggestions are simply due to the Eso reproduction being about raw detail retrieval, drive and heft, subtle layering reproduction is not the top of its priority list imho. Its strengths lie else where imho. I still have a D-02/P-02/G-0Rb (which does bring out the spatial information, better cohesiveness, tidy's the bass up and generally give a more intelligible sound) Still very good without question I just feel you may not be able to bring out its Esoteric character and it is nothing to do with have big solid state power at all. Have several customers who use Eso at the K01-X and above very happily with valves.

However only you can decide Tom

[montesquieu]

Would agree 100% with the Munich assessment, on the Sunday was down time, no working!

I took a couple of customers with me this year and we actually spent time listening to seven systems in the region of 400K Euro's only one made a passable stab at reproducing a musical sound in a natural unforced manner without any form of in built designed signature, quite shocking really. Magico S5 room taking the honors there for worst sound.

Even Kondo had a truly grim sound, though that was down to those appalling stand-mount speakers their were paired with, the Kondo was a real diplomat is all I can say.

My suggestions are simply due to the Eso reproduction being about raw detail retrieval, drive and heft, subtle layering reproduction is not the top of its priority list imho. Its strengths lie else where imho. I still have a D-02/P-02/G-0Rb (which does bring out the spatial information, better cohesiveness, tidy's the bass up and generally give a more intelligible sound) Still very good without question I just feel you may not be able to bring out its Esoteric character and it is nothing to do with have big solid state power at all. Have several customers who use Eso at the K01-X and above very happily with valves.

However only you can decide Tom

Any recommendations that would fit with the valve/Tannoy aesthetic?

Lampizator is already on the list to audition just curious for alternatives I may not be considering as not on my radar.

[Mr. C]

Tom do you like the AN style of sound?

If you may I suggest sticking it with, I will not comment on the limpy as I have repaired one of two of them in the past not keen on them, I'm sure Justin will be able to let you hear his personalized model no problem.

However on sound quality only (I would take a limpy over the Dave in a heart beat).

What sort of budget are you looking at Tom?

[montesquieu]

Tom do you like the AN style of sound?

If you may I suggest sticking it with, I will not comment on the limpy as I have repaired one of two of them in the past not keen on them, I'm sure Justin will be able to let you hear his personalized model no problem.

However on sound quality only (I would take a limpy over the Dave in a heart beat).

What sort of budget are you looking at Tom?

My current setup AN CDT 2/II and highly upgraded AN kit DAC (which started as a 2.1 but is something between a 3.1 and a 4.1 nowadays) could probably raise me £3.5-4k. I can probably put £2-3 on top of this this for the right setup.

I actually very much like the AN sound but could use slightly more definition/detail - without losing the musicality or ease of the AN.

I have Justin's Lampi coming in the autumn and I'm looking forward to that, chance for a direct comparison. Just exploring other options too.

One option might be to further upgrade my existing DAC - DHT output tubes, full double mono - that's under consideration and might well be where I end up. It's not going to give me DSD native though, not that that's a big issue for me really.

Hugo has suggested swapping out the SMPS in my Mutec for a linear supply, that's not a hugely expensive exercise so I'm looking at that as something I can do right away. I like the Mutec it modestly improves on the output from the transport directly and works very well as a USB receiver. At the moment I can't use its master clock capability as none of my devices can receive an external clock signal.

[Spectral Morn]

This months HiFi News reviews top Esoteric set up, and of course no mention of whether the transport mech is silent, or not. Interestingly Kessler hints that his KI Marantz CD12/DA12 is nearly as good on CD playback.

[Mr. C]

This months HiFi News reviews top Esoteric set up, and of course no mention of whether the transport mech is silent, or not. Interestingly Kessler hints that his KI Marantz CD12/DA12 is nearly as good on CD playback.

Not quite sure what Ken is smoking but he needs to share it around :mental: