Krell KSA-100 MK2

[Bigman80]

Hi all,

I am considering picking up the Krell KSA100 but as it's quite an investment I wondered if any of you had any opinions on it?

Specifically the model mentioned. Thanks.



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[Wakefield Turntables]

;)Makes quite a nice (not so) portable heater. It's a classic amp one of the all time classics. They can be very expensive if they go wrong.

[Bigman80]

;)Makes quite a nice (not so) portable heater. It's a classic amp one of the all time classics. They can be very expensive if they go wrong.Yes I've seen some stories of problems but I am willing to get stung...... I think.

Ever heard one?


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[YNWaN]

I would say a couple of things - 1/ as suggested they are expensive to repair. The electrolytic caps age quite quickly as they get very hot and definitely do need to be replaced every few years. Despite the immense case they are jammed full of components, huge transformers and vast (expensive) reservoir capacitors, 2/ this is a crazy heavy amplifier, 3/ although they genuinely are vastly powerful and capable of driving crazy low impedance speakers with ease - is this what you actually need? My experience is that faster and tighter bass can be had elsewhere and the Krell sound may well not be quite what you expecting.

[Primalsea]

They were very popular amps by all accounts and are of solid build quality, as you might expect from early Krell. My only concern is that if you run anything hot, even if it is within spec, it still does damage over time. Being an older amp you can expect it to have suffered some fatigue, even if it has bee used lightly in a domestic setting.

This is not to say don't go for it, just be aware that your chances of needing to get it serviced and repaired are likely to be higher than if you had a newer, cooler running amp.

[Floyddroid]

As said above. If they go wrong you may well end up spending what you paid for the amp second hand for repairs. They sound ok but that's about it for me. There are a lot better amps out there at a fraction of the cost.

[Bigman80]

As said above. If they go wrong you may well end up spending what you paid for the amp second hand for repairs. They sound ok but that's about it for me. There are a lot better amps out there at a fraction of the cost.Like?..........

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[Jimbo]

I have heard one way back as it was certainly a big contender in the solid state amps when it came out. Although it is massive and certainly solid state in sound the two things I remember were that it did not sound harsh but had a rather delicate top end and had superb bass control, way better than most valve amps..

I would imagine there are plenty of solid state power amps out there now that equal the Krell for sound quality and better its dynamic ability. I certainly know of a few but they are expensive. The Krell may turn out expensive if things don't go well.

Do you need a power amp this big to drive your speakers?

[Primalsea]

I get the impression that the point of the KSA100 was that you get class A fluidity but with the slam and bass control of a class A/B amp. It's just being American it couldn't possibly be high end unless you could also use it as a spot welder too.

[Bigman80]

I get the impression that the point of the KSA100 was that you get class A fluidity but with the slam and bass control of a class A/B amp. It's just being American it couldn't possibly be high end unless you could also use it as a spot welder too.[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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[Bigman80]

I have heard one way back as it was certainly a big contender in the solid state amps when it came out. Although it is massive and certainly solid state in sound the two things I remember were that it did not sound harsh but had a rather delicate top end and had superb bass control, way better than most valve amps..

I would imagine there are plenty of solid state power amps out there now that equal the Krell for sound quality and better its dynamic ability. I certainly know of a few but they are expensive. The Krell may turn out expensive if things don't go well.

Do you need a power amp this big to drive your speakers?Certainly not Jim!!!

My speakers are 98db sensitivity if I recall.

I really liked what Macca's did at the Bakeoff and this one is available at sensible money. Do I NEED it? No, the Monarchy Audio SM-70 is killing it here. Do I WANT it? Not sure. The effort to get it to even fit in the room is almost as big as the amp and a few good points have been raised over its usage over the years with all that heat have hit home.

I think I'll leave it and keep looking for another SM-70.

thanks all.

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[walpurgis]

With 98db speakers, you'd probably get away with a three watt SET mate. 2A3 could be nice. :)

[Bigman80]

With 98db speakers, you'd probably get away with a three watt SET mate. 2A3 could be nice. :)I know I don't need a lot of power. I just caught a bit of curiosity after the bakeoff.

I need another SM-70

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[Yomanze]

With 98db speakers, you'd probably get away with a three watt SET mate. 2A3 could be nice. :)

30W of Class A more than enough. I think the KSA-100 would be a mismatch with 98db speakers.

[Bigman80]

You could be right actually.
30W of Class A more than enough. I think the KSA-100 would be a mismatch with 98db speakers.

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[Macca]

Almost all of that advice was terrible.

1) if it goes wrong it won't cost any more to fix than any other amp
2) It's designed to run hot
2) it won't run hot into very efficient speakers in any case
4) It doesn't matter how sensitive the speakers are, it won't be a 'mismatch'

[Haselsh1]

Years ago when discussing cars there was a saying that went "There's no substitute for cubes". I also think that there's no substitute for power. I absolutely love the slam and grip of big amps. Yes I know it is only loosely connected with power but these big SOAB amplifiers just grip the speakers to near death. Love that grip so much. Buy it..! Regret later; much later ;)

[Pigmy Pony]

Almost all of that advice was terrible.

1) if it goes wrong it won't cost any more to fix than any other amp
2) It's designed to run hot
2) it won't run hot into very efficient speakers in any case
4) It doesn't matter how sensitive the speakers are, it won't be a 'mismatch'

I could be wrong (it happens), but don't class A amps run hot all the time?

[walpurgis]

I could be wrong (it happens), but don't class A amps run hot all the time?

Yes.

[Jimbo]

The Krell runs in a slightly different class A set up to the classic notion of class A. It uses Sustained Plateau Bias which means it does not run as hot as a typical Class A amp.

[struth]

Class a is always hot as it's always full on. Unless they are cheating and it's ab or some other system Even the. It's usually a for first section. Like 20 watts then ab At that sensitivity you won't be using much of the volume control.

After saying that the best amp I ever had was a mf a1000 class a. 50 watt. It was pretty hot. Like remove your skin hot. Lol

Sounded fabulous and I should really have kept it. Silly Billy

[walpurgis]

The Krell runs in a slightly different class A set up to the classic notion of class A. It uses Sustained Plateau Bias which means it does not run as hot as a typical Class A amp.

Surely that's because it decides when to switch out of Class A and into AB?

[Bigman80]

Ok, Macca. Fair enough

Still non the wiser.

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[Jimbo]

Class a is always hot as it's always full on. Unless they are cheating and it's ab or some other system Even the. It's usually a for first section. Like 20 watts then ab At that sensitivity you won't be using much of the volume control.

After saying that the best amp I ever had was a mf a1000 class a. 50 watt. It was pretty hot. Like remove your skin hot. Lol

Sounded fabulous and I should really have kept it. Silly Billy

MF used to make an Integrated 70W amp called the Synthesis. It was an absolute beast, light the blue touch paper and stand back! Not sure if it ran in Class A but it may well have done. It got very hot and was very powerful indeed. Nearly bought one it was so impressive but decided it was a bit too much.:)

[Floyddroid]

Like?..........

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Beard P100 and the P100 monoblocks.

[Bigman80]

Beard P100 and the P100 monoblocks.Goddam it, I asked about those. Few weeks back and was told not to bother lol

I give up!!!

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[karma67]

have a read up on a john wood kt88! :D

[Dickchy]

Hi Marco,

If you would like a bit of American muscle (!) find a Modwright KW150SE secondhand if you can. I’ve had mine for a year and it is a perfect match for my Boenicke speakers which like a bit of grunt up ‘em.
Can’t see me changing it anytime soon - though I’m not sure I could pick it up a second time!

[Bigman80]

Hi Marco,

If you would like a bit of American muscle (!) find a Modwright KW150SE secondhand if you can. I’ve had mine for a year and it is a perfect match for my Boenicke speakers which like a bit of grunt up ‘em.
Can’t see me changing it anytime soon - though I’m not sure I could pick it up a second time!Marco?

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[Floyddroid]

Goddam it, I asked about those. Few weeks back and was told not to bother lol

I give up!!!

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It was a sad day when i sold my Beard amps. Best amps i have ever owned. I had a Krell FPB300 and it simply wasn't as good. The Beards pissed all over it. I got divorced and moved into a small gaff so had to sell them. My Avondale Voyagers that i use now are also a better amp than the Krell. All subjective i suppose. But hey, done the Krell thing and never again. A friend at the time had the same amp and his went pop. It was away for months and he could have bought a small hatchback for what the repairs cost him.

[Bigman80]

It was a sad day when i sold my Beard amps. Best amps i have ever owned. I had a Krell FPB300 and it simply wasn't as good. The Beards pissed all over it. I got divorced and moved into a small gaff so had to sell them. My Avondale Voyagers that i use now are also a better amp than the Krell. All subjective i suppose. But hey, done the Krell thing and never again. A friend at the time had the same amp and his went pop. It was away for months and he could have bought a small hatchback for what the repairs cost him.Can I ask what was good about the Beard?

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[Primalsea]

Can I ask what was good about the Beard?

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If you look after them they can be quite smooth and with a tidy presentation, sometimes even a bit fluffy. Left to their own devices they can become quite rough and grating.

[Bigman80]

If you look after them they can be quite smooth and with a tidy presentation, sometimes even a bit fluffy. Left to their own devices they can become quite rough and grating.Hmm, high maintenance isn't the best.

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[Bksabath]

Hi Oliver
Just seen the tread

Krell? for you? this really surprise me


I borrowed the 400 ??? W Krell integrated at the same time when I first built the F5 about 8 / 9 years ago
There was no contest I tried and tried to find any thing good whit the Krell as I wanted one from the day I firs saw the SiFI movie...

It may have been that particular model but it certainly it put off me from wanting a Krell and reading FiFi magazines

As you know I am building same F5's for friends...
You are welcome to pop around and have a listen to my F5

PM for you

[Primalsea]

Hmm, high maintenance isn't the best.

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Sorry, that was a joke - about beards, not Beards.:)

[Bigman80]

Sorry, that was a joke - about beards, not Beards.:)Ha, I'm tired and missed it. Now I get it it's very good.

Also, I have a beard, not a Beard.

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[Dickchy]

[QUOTE=Bigman80;1006486]Marco?

Well Oliver sounds like Marco when you get to my age.:doh:

[Bigman80]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
[QUOTE=Bigman80;1006486]Marco?

Well Oliver sounds like Marco when you get to my age.:doh:

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[jandl100]

Almost all of that advice was terrible.

1) if it goes wrong it won't cost any more to fix than any other amp
2) It's designed to run hot
2) it won't run hot into very efficient speakers in any case
4) It doesn't matter how sensitive the speakers are, it won't be a 'mismatch'

Totally wrong on all counts. ;)
- well, OK it is designed to run hot, but that doesn't mean that components won't wear out because of it.

I've had a few Krells, including the KSA-100's baby brother, the KSA50.

They all need a difficult load to get their teeth into to sound decent.
Otherwise they just tend to fall asleep and not bother.
98dB speakers is a mismatch made in helll imho.

[Macca]

Re hot running:

Beginning with the Krell Audio Standard amplifier, Krell employed a technology called Sustained Plateau Bias. The KAS tracked the musical signal in relation to the amplifier's bias. The bias level was set in several discrete plateaus, so that when the musical signal required a higher bias level to remain in class-A operation, the amplifier would elevate the bias to that plateau long enough to produce the signal needed before ramping back down to a lower bias point. This kept the amplifier operating in class A no matter what the signal requirements, but it reduced the amount of wasted energy.


Also you all may have noticed that class AB and class B amps can also run hot, especially if they are designed for form over function. Function means lots of heatsinking, if the heatsinking is getting warm that means the inside of the amp isn't. I mean that is the whole point of heatsinking isn't it?


I've never understood all the hand-wringing over 'What if it goes wrong.' If you bought a classic car and it developed a fault would you just take it down the breakers? No, you just get it fixed. Because it's a classic and a keeper.

Like an old school car the KSA100 is a workshop build, there's nothing in it that will fail that any EE couldn't sort out. So you might have to replace a capacitor one day. Big deal. And no different from any other amp you could buy, except really modern stuff like that NAD someone here had fail recently, 7 years old and the boards are no longer made. And that cost a few grand.

[Bigman80]

Re hot running:

Beginning with the Krell Audio Standard amplifier, Krell employed a technology called Sustained Plateau Bias. The KAS tracked the musical signal in relation to the amplifier's bias. The bias level was set in several discrete plateaus, so that when the musical signal required a higher bias level to remain in class-A operation, the amplifier would elevate the bias to that plateau long enough to produce the signal needed before ramping back down to a lower bias point. This kept the amplifier operating in class A no matter what the signal requirements, but it reduced the amount of wasted energy.


Also you all may have noticed that class AB and class B amps can also run hot, especially if they are designed for form over function. Function means lots of heatsinking, if the heatsinking is getting warm that means the inside of the amp isn't. I mean that is the whole point of heatsinking isn't it?


I've never understood all the hand-wringing over 'What if it goes wrong.' If you bought a classic car and it developed a fault would you just take it down the breakers? No, you just get it fixed. Because it's a classic and a keeper.

Like an old school car the KSA100 is a workshop build, there's nothing in it that will fail that any EE couldn't sort out. So you might have to replace a capacitor one day. Big deal. And no different from any other amp you could buy, except really modern stuff like that NAD someone here had fail recently, 7 years old and the boards are no longer made. And that cost a few grand.What about the speaker mismatch, Macca? Any input on that.

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[Bigman80]

have a read up on a john wood kt88! :DI will mate. I'm not actually looking for a new amp but the Krell just tickled my interest.

Seems the excess of power isn't necessary here.

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[Macca]

How would it be a mismatch? You have high sensitivity speakers so you can't use a powerful amp? I've no idea what that is all about. You just use less of the available power than you would if the speakers were, say, 83dB, in order to get the same volume level. It won't have the slightest effect on sound quality.

[jandl100]

Try it, Macca.
You haven't a clue on this one.

[Lawrence001]

I'd keep high output SS away from high sensitivity speakers based on pure surmise on my part, which is that the amp is designed to be flat/ linear over a wide output range, but what its performance would be like at 0.001% or whatever of its rated output I wouldn't bet on as it was probably not a design consideration.

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[montesquieu]

Totally wrong on all counts. ;)
- well, OK it is designed to run hot, but that doesn't mean that components won't wear out because of it.

I've had a few Krells, including the KSA-100's baby brother, the KSA50.

They all need a difficult load to get their teeth into to sound decent.
Otherwise they just tend to fall asleep and not bother.
98dB speakers is a mismatch made in helll imho.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Krell KSA50 sucked the life out my Tannoy 15in Monitor Golds. Flat as a pancake.

It also went DC at one point and fried the driver. DC + masses of current + paper driver = went up in flames like the map at the start of Bonanza.

Personally I wouldn't bother. SS muscle amp concept might have been invented or at least developed by Krell but it's been significantly refined subsequently and plenty of more recent amps do the Class A SS thing as well or better for less $$ these days.

[Bigman80]

Fair point Tom.
I'm inclined to agree with this.

Krell KSA50 sucked the life out my Tannoy 15in Monitor Golds. Flat as a pancake.

It also went DC at one point and fried the driver. DC + masses of current + paper driver = went up in flames like the map at the start of Bonanza.

Personally I wouldn't bother. SS muscle amp concept might have been invented or at least developed by Krell but it's been significantly refined subsequently and plenty of more recent amps do the Class A SS thing as well or better for less $$ these days.

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[Jimbo]

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Krell KSA50 sucked the life out my Tannoy 15in Monitor Golds. Flat as a pancake.

It also went DC at one point and fried the driver. DC + masses of current + paper driver = went up in flames like the map at the start of Bonanza.

Personally I wouldn't bother. SS muscle amp concept might have been invented or at least developed by Krell but it's been significantly refined subsequently and plenty of more recent amps do the Class A SS thing as well or better for less $$ these days.

Solid state muscle amps were also developed to power difficult speaker loads and speakers that were inefficient.

[Macca]

Try it, Macca.
You haven't a clue on this one.

I use mine with 90dB easy to drive speakers, it doesn't even get warm unless I really cane it. Oliver's heard that combination which is why he was interested in a Krell to begin with.

Why would an amp sound worse into an easy load? There's no logic in that. We are back to 'I tried it and didn't like it' and then jumping to conclusions about why. Could have been a whole host of factors causing that but we'll pick the most unlikely and non-sensical one and run with that.


I have some Akai speakers that are pretty much identical to Oliver's Pioneers (96db) which I ran with an XTZ for years - a solid state muscle amp with 120 watts - never a problem.

[Patrick Dixon]

Krell KSA50 sucked the life out my Tannoy 15in Monitor Golds. Flat as a pancake.

It also went DC at one point and fried the driver. DC + masses of current + paper driver = went up in flames like the map at the start of Bonanza.


It sounds like it was just faulty then!

I have a Krell KSA300S driving B&W N802s and I'm happy with the results. It's a huge and incredibly heavy amp (like needs two people to lift it 6 inches) and it's got a lot of large and expensive components inside so if it does go wrong it won't be cheap to fix, but I never worry if it's got enough grunt to drive the speakers and it sounds good to me.

To the OP, I don't think you are really going to find out much by asking on here; there's really only one way to find out and that's to try it for yourself. If you buy wisely, you should be able to move on for not much lost if it doesn't do it for you. If you have efficient speakers than that's probably not quite what the Krell was designed for, but that doesn't mean it won't work well, and these itches generally do need scratching.

[Yomanze]

The Krell KSA-100 MK1 does not use sustained plateau bias, it’s a pure class A monster that’ll draw several hundred watts from the wall all day.

[YNWaN]

Almost all of that advice was terrible.

1) if it goes wrong it won't cost any more to fix than any other amp
2) It's designed to run hot
2) it won't run hot into very efficient speakers in any case
4) It doesn't matter how sensitive the speakers are, it won't be a 'mismatch'

Nonsense.

[Mr. C]

I have a few of these door stops in the lab, in their day they were different, never saw what all the fuss was over unless you had Apogee's and need to power a dead short lol

Unless you know the history of the unit then I would leave alone, also remember these things would use around around .5kw of power at idle.

[YNWaN]

Refuting Macca's post with eloquence. Not.

Great input - as ever.

[Patrick Dixon]

The Krell KSA-100 MK1 does not use sustained plateau bias, it’s a pure class A monster that’ll draw several hundred watts from the wall all day.

If you have a pure class A amp, it's best not to leave it on all day.

[struth]

just remember our ethos folks:)

[Macca]

Glad I didn't ask on here before I got mine. I fancied it so I just bought it.

Seems to be some quite bizarre prejudices against Krell/ American muscle amps. Legacy of the UK flat earth brainwashing maybe? An amplifier should be able to deliver watts and current, if it can't it isn't actually very good. Of course it is expensive to make an amp like that, it eats into the profits, so instead let's tell everyone that there is something magical about low powered amps with saggy power supplies.

[struth]

a good analogy would be using a stretch limmo for the school run :eyebrows: great amps but better used with speakers that need it. again imo.

[montesquieu]

a good analogy would be using a stretch limmo for the school run :eyebrows: great amps but better used with speakers that need it. again imo.

Jeez don't give the Yummy Mummies round here ideas. It's bad enough with wall to wall XC90s, X5s and the like.

[Bigman80]

I'll be honest,

The reaction to the Krell question has surprised me somewhat.

Whether one Needs all that power really doesn't matter because most of us really dont. The only question I suppose is, does it sound as good when you aren't using it to its full potential. Being Class A, I don't see what reason there could be for it not to.

I can see why a low powered amp may not be ideal with inefficient speakers but for what reason would a high powered amp struggle to sound good through efficient speakers?

Apart from the quite frankly child-like remarks at times, the only comment of real value has been the effect heat can have on the life span of components.



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[Barry]

If you have a pure class A amp, it's best not to leave it on all day.

I use 25W pure class A monoblock amplifiers. They draw 800W from the mains, and run so hot I don't use them in the summer. They are a 'winter' amp only.

[STD305M]

I would assume that the manufacturer's knew when building it that it would run hot and so built it accordingly
If you bought it and weren't 100% happy with the results you wouldn't lose on it. You could always re-sell , at least that way you would know!!!
As for some of the ludicrous comments, I expected better from this forum
Good luck with whatever you decide Oliver

[struth]

I forgot to switch my A1000 off one evening and only noticed in late morning :doh: it was red hot :eyebrows: Fortunately it did no harm but it was an error i never repeated, and double check all appliances now.
My Neighbours washing machine went up in smoke last week, and fortunately se was there to turn power off and get her, the kid and dogs out. i got the brigade and by time they came it was well alight..
Never put it on and go out or to bed is the lesson..:)

Back to the Krell, there is no reason why it wont sound very good; only thing is you wont get a lot of travel on vc, which some say doesnt get the amp running so well, but with class a it dont think its an issue. go for it if you fancy it

[montesquieu]

I'll be honest,

The reaction to the Krell question has surprised me somewhat.

Whether one Needs all that power really doesn't matter because most of us really dont. The only question I suppose is, does it sound as good when you aren't using it to its full potential. Being Class A, I don't see what reason there could be for it not to.

I can see why a low powered amp may not be ideal with inefficient speakers but for what reason would a high powered amp struggle to sound good through efficient speakers?

Apart from the quite frankly child-like remarks at times, the only comment of real value has been the effect heat can have on the life span of components.




It's fairly well established that Tannoy need a moderate damping factor - say in the range 10-50 - to get the best out of them. Set amps with high output impedance/low or non-existent damping factor struggle to control the cones. Amps with very high damping factor tend to sound a bit rubbish with Tannoys as the life gets sucked out. I'm pretty sure this is what was going on with the Monitor Golds and why the KSA50 sounded rubbish with them. I'm not sure if this applies to other speakers with different characteristics - it may do or it may not - but I don't think the input had no value.

Beyond that I totally agree on the comments around low powered valve amps and weak power supplies, there seems to be a superstition - or to be charitable, a 'faith-based' approach - hed by many people in favour for single ended and for Class A that's not justified by listening let alone by measurement.

[walpurgis]

As for some of the ludicrous comments, I expected better from this forum

Everybody is entitled to express a view Steve. It doesn't have to be well informed or even right.

With one exception, nothing has been said that might be construed as impolite. It wouldn't be good if members feared contributing in case they may be pounced on for being wrong. There is however nothing wrong with pointing out a misconception in a helpful way.

[Bigman80]

It's fairly well established that Tannoy need a moderate damping factor - say in the range 10-50 - to get the best out of them. Set amps with high output impedance/low or non-existent damping factor struggle to control the cones. Amps with very high damping factor tend to sound a bit rubbish with Tannoys as the life gets sucked out. I'm pretty sure this is what was going on with the Monitor Golds and why the KSA50 sounded rubbish with them. I'm not sure if this applies to other speakers with different characteristics - it may do or it may not - but I don't think the input had no value.

Beyond that I totally agree on the comments around low powered valve amps and weak power supplies, there seems to be a superstition - or to be charitable, a 'faith-based' approach - hed by many people in favour for single ended and for Class A that's not justified by listening let alone by measurement.Obviously the Tannoys you used have a requirement that the Krell didn't have or vise versa but that's the point. Why won't efficient speakers work with it?

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[montesquieu]

Obviously the Tannoys you used have a requirement that the Krell didn't have or vise versa but that's the point. Why won't efficient speakers work with it?



er ... damping factor as per what I wrote, this is quite well established when it comes to Tannoys.

[Bigman80]

er ... damping factor as per what I wrote, this is quite well established when it comes to Tannoys.Yes, Tom, I get that but I don't have Tannoys so how does that relate to the Pioneer??

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[Bigman80]

The Krell KSA-100 is only 100 watts. That's an incredible amount of power by class A standards, but not exceptional by class AB standards. I don't think I've ever heard anyone here say say that such-and-such an amp (class AB) is unsuitable for efficient speakers because it is too powerful.

Highly efficient speakers will reveal hiss/hum in amplifiers with a poor signal-to-noise ratio, and the problem is exacerbated by power amps with a high voltage gain, but that has nothing to do with power output. As far as I know, the Krells don't suffer from poor signal/noise.Yes, my speakers regularly reveal hiss and hum from kit, hence my constant griping about the levels of noise in the system when they are introduced!!! BUT I accept that as part of the deal for having efficient speakers.

Can anyone explain to me why my Pioneer speakers wouldn't work with the Krell.




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[struth]

Yes, my speakers regularly reveal hiss and hum from kit, hence my constant griping about the levels of noise in the system when they are introduced!!! BUT I accept that as part of the deal for having efficient speakers.

Can anyone explain to me why my Pioneer speakers wouldn't work with the Krell.




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any chance of taking them to martins to try on his amp

[montesquieu]

Damping factor isn't a function of power output per se. If the Krells have a high damping factor it isn't because they're high powered and doesn't mean that other high powered amps would be unsuitable.

I never said it had anything to do with power output ... the consensus is that it has to do with damping factor / output impedance.

HOWEVER having said that a lot of high-powered solid state amps seem to feature a very high damping factor. I've found the Pass designs to be an exception and I've also found these to work pretty well with Tannoys. (As it happens that's what I'm using in the study). With many valve amps you have the opposite of course = floppy bass.

[Stryder5]

Screw this, go for it Oli......if it's your itch, only you can scratch it.

Other people's views are kinda irrelevant although you asked for it.

After all you can always pass them on if your not happy.

Go for it!

Gary

[STD305M]

Screw this, go for it Oli......if it's your itch, only you can scratch it.

Other people's views are kinda irrelevant although you asked for it.

After all you can always pass them on if your not happy.

Go for it!

Gary

My sentiment exactly
But i guess i said a little too much for some

Steve

[STD305M]

Everybody is entitled to express a view Steve. It doesn't have to be well informed or even right.

With one exception, nothing has been said that might be construed as impolite. It wouldn't be good if members feared contributing in case they may be pounced on for being wrong. There is however nothing wrong with pointing out a misconception in a helpful way.

Hi Geoff

I never said anyone was being impolite i said some of the comments were ludicrous
If I've offended anyone i will apologise here and now
We all have the right to form an opinion right or wrong, that's all i did.

Regards steve..

[Macca]

Tom - I'm wondering if this theory about Tannoy drivers needing a damping factor of between 20 and 50 supported anywhere else or is it just an assumption?

Asking because I have some 15'' HPD drivers that I intend to use with a Krell.

Have to admit that it sounds very unlikely to me, but if you can provide some sort of reference to this so I can look into it further I'd appreciate it.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Oli please don't feel insulted by what I'm going to say. I think your original question whilst valid is also pointless, sorry. I don't think anyone can honestly answer your question. I honestly think it's just a case of buying the amp and seeing if it gels in your system. If you have no luck, then at least you've had the pleasure of owning a piece of hifi history, alternatively you may have a good amp for many years to come. I'd just buy it if I were you.

[montesquieu]

Tom - I'm wondering if this theory about Tannoy drivers needing a damping factor of between 20 and 50 supported anywhere else or is it just an assumption?

Asking because I have some 15'' HPD drivers that I intend to use with a Krell.

Have to admit that it sounds very unlikely to me, but if you can provide some sort of reference to this so I can look into it further I'd appreciate it.

I think it was first articulated by Coco over on the Wam a long time ago, but quite a number of people subscribe to it as a broad principle/rule of thumb including Paul Coupe.

It's certainly been my experience and I have tried more than 30 amps (thinking about it probably closer to 40) of all flavours with 12 and 15in Golds and 12 and 15in HPDs over the last decade and a bit. While Krells and their high-power SS emulators frequently disappointed, the solid state Pass and Pass-clone amps I tried all worked well - even single ended - sure enough these have a modest damping factor - same with a 100w Mitsubishi solid state amp from the 80s, damping factor of 20 and very nice with Tannoys. By contrast every single ended valve amp I've tried has disappointed, as have some push pull valve amps with high output impedances/very low damping in low single figures (300b amps in particular I've found can be guilty in that respect, though not all of them) - floppy and disappointing. Meanwhile amps that in some ways can tend to lack a little in resolution or air, but have specs in the right range for Tannoys - Quad solid state power amps for example - can sound very nice indeed.

What kind of reference do you need other than extensive experience? What I've found is that I can 100% accurately predict the performance of an amp with Tannoys based on its specs. If people want to listen and shortcut the process, that's great, if they don't that's fine too.

My view of course comes precisely from having a lot of amps through the door over many years. The last thing I'd say to anyone with Tannoys is that they shouldn't give it a go, but I'd also recommend comparison to an amp withing the specs suggested after they've got a handle on the sound, and see what they think then. I'd also add that I don't think my Tannoy experience can be necessarily extrapolated to any other variety of speaker - Tannoys are peculiar in lots of ways.

[Macca]

What kind of reference do you need other than extensive experience?

.

Well I was hoping for some sort of technical reference/explanation. I'm not saying you are wrong and in due course I guess I will find out anyway. It's just that there are lots of reasons why an amp might not 'gel' with some speakers* and I am wary of people coming up with technical explanations for their subjective impressions as they are often wide of the mark. I'm also aware that some EEs reckon that once the damping factor is above 20 it is no longer a factor in sound quality.

* this would also be a matter of personal taste as regards to the presentation. One thing I have learned from experience is that people prefer widely different presentations. One man's clean and neutral is another man's cold and uninviting, if you know what I mean?

[montesquieu]

Well I was hoping for some sort of technical reference/explanation. I'm not saying you are wrong and in due course I guess I will find out anyway. It's just that there are lots of reasons why an amp might not 'gel' with some speakers* and I am wary of people coming up with technical explanations for their subjective impressions as they are often wide of the mark. I'm also aware that some EEs reckon that once the damping factor is above 20 it is no longer a factor in sound quality.

* this would also be a matter of personal taste as regards to the presentation. One thing I have learned from experience is that people prefer widely different presentations. One man's clean and neutral is another man's cold and uninviting, if you know what I mean?

Well I guess it's possible to like a detailed but lifeless presentation, or indeed woolly bass at the other extreme ...

[Floyddroid]

Can I ask what was good about the Beard?

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The grip the amp has on speakers for a start. But the shear musicality and presentation. Very smooth but powerful and easy on the ear. Rounded and deep soundstage. Handle any genre of music.

[montesquieu]

The grip the amp has on speakers for a start. But the shear musicality and presentation. Very smooth but powerful and easy on the ear. Rounded and deep soundstage. Handle any genre of music.

Yes any Beard amps I've heard have been very good. (With Tannoys too :) ). Justin brought round one with six EL84s per channel, which was superb with HPDs.

All getting a bit old now but of course can be fixed up.

[Bigman80]

Well, that's just confusing things further lol

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[Floyddroid]

Glad I didn't ask on here before I got mine. I fancied it so I just bought it.

Seems to be some quite bizarre prejudices against Krell/ American muscle amps. Legacy of the UK flat earth brainwashing maybe? An amplifier should be able to deliver watts and current, if it can't it isn't actually very good. Of course it is expensive to make an amp like that, it eats into the profits, so instead let's tell everyone that there is something magical about low powered amps with saggy power supplies.

Hi Martin

I have no prejudice at all towards American muscle amps. In fact having borrowed Audio Research and Mark Levinson amps in the past I can see why people like them. My personal experience with Krell may well be in the minority here. But I stick by my previous comments. As I said, all subjective.

[walpurgis]

Yes any Beard amps I've heard have been very good. (With Tannoys too :) ). Justin brought round one with six EL84s per channel, which was superb with HPDs.

All getting a bit old now but of course can be fixed up.

That would have been the P35. Tonally quite similar to the Leak Stereo 20 (EL84 as well), but more powerful.

[struth]

Only heard 1 beard but it was nice. Would have had one in a shot had the opportunity arisen

[Floyddroid]

Screw this, go for it Oli......if it's your itch, only you can scratch it.

Other people's views are kinda irrelevant although you asked for it.

After all you can always pass them on if your not happy.

Go for it!

Gary

Yes, I agree. Or even get it home on sale or return.

[Bigman80]

Yes, I agree. Or even get it home on sale or return.Private sale so no can do. "Shit or bust" im afraid.

I have requested a visit to go and have a listen. I may even take my speakers if it's possible. Seems the only logical step to seeing what it's like to a degree.



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[Bigman80]

Screw this, go for it Oli......if it's your itch, only you can scratch it.

Other people's views are kinda irrelevant although you asked for it.

After all you can always pass them on if your not happy.

Go for it!

GaryGary,

The price is a bit high for me to go "gung ho" so I need to keep a modicum of caution.

However, I do usually just pull the trigger lol


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[alphaGT]

I myself am a big Krell fan! I owned a large set of speakers and I tried several somewhat powerful amps, but somehow it just wasn’t there, I couldn’t get them to take off. But my Krell amp (FPB-300) woke them right up! A smooth, rich sound, strong bass with real slam. Maybe not for everyone? But it single handedly brought my system to the next level! Are there other amps I could have been happy with? I’m sure. I almost bought a big Classe’ 400 watt amp I’m sure would have given similar results, it too a huge Class A monster.

Yes they can require a re-cap at a certain age, but it’s not like that often, every 20 years maybe. My amp is over 20 years old and shows no sign of needing repairs. I suspect it didn’t see heavy use in its life. I paid $2k for a $9K amp, when new, so if I have to cough up another $2K over the next 10 years, I don’t really have a problem with that. Then it’ll be ready to last another 20 plus years.

I say buy it! You might just love it. If not, resell and get your money back. You may regret not giving it a shot! That particular model is well respected and many good things said about it. I was hesitant, not sure about spending the money, but now I wish I had done it 10 years ago! No regrets.

Russell

[Bigman80]

Thanks Russell.
I myself am a big Krell fan! I owned a large set of speakers and I tried several somewhat powerful amps, but somehow it just wasn’t there, I couldn’t get them to take off. But my Krell amp (FPB-300) woke them right up! A smooth, rich sound, strong bass with real slam. Maybe not for everyone? But it single handedly brought my system to the next level! Are there other amps I could have been happy with? I’m sure. I almost bought a big Classe’ 400 watt amp I’m sure would have given similar results, it too a huge Class A monster.

Yes they can require a re-cap at a certain age, but it’s not like that often, every 20 years maybe. My amp is over 20 years old and shows no sign of needing repairs. I suspect it didn’t see heavy use in its life. I paid $2k for a $9K amp, when new, so if I have to cough up another $2K over the next 10 years, I don’t really have a problem with that. Then it’ll be ready to last another 20 plus years.

I say buy it! You might just love it. If not, resell and get your money back. You may regret not giving it a shot! That particular model is well respected and many good things said about it. I was hesitant, not sure about spending the money, but now I wish I had done it 10 years ago! No regrets.

Russell

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[Bigman80]

I have got some advice from a very trusted source who has advised me to leave it.

Concerns about the heat and the effect it has on the components is the major concern.

Also a concern is the sheer size of the thing which I am already aware will be very difficult to fit in my room.

Usually the purchase would have already been made if I truly fancied it so based on all of the above I've decided to leave it.


Thanks everyone for the help and advice.




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[Macca]

I have got some advice from a very trusted source who has advised me to leave it.

Concerns about the heat and the effect it has on the components is the major concern.



That's absolutely no concern, if that's what your trusted source told you then don't take any more hi-fi advice off them.

[Yomanze]

That's absolutely no concern, if that's what your trusted source told you then don't take any more hi-fi advice off them.

I agree WRT to heat. It just isn't an issue for a Krell, save for changing the caps every decade or so (maybe). I had a Krell KRC-3 pre that ran hotter than most power amps, but had no power switch, just an internal relay when the cable was plugged in. If you're scared of heat, just don't use high bias / Class A. :P

[hifi_dave]

The Krells are made to dissipate the heat and suffer no more than any other amp in this respect. They are built to last. As to repairs, they are not difficult to do.

The noise levels are low and so using a KSA100 into efficient speakers is not a problem - that's what the volume control is for.

A s/hand Krell is good value and can easily be sold on as there are many who would love to own one.

[Bigman80]

That's absolutely no concern, if that's what your trusted source told you then don't take any more hi-fi advice off them.[emoji50]

Macca, you know we're cool but there is logic that the heat will affect the components over time.

His advice was that due to the unknown history and the fact it's not been serviced since new (as far as we know) itmeans the heat must be having an effect on the components by now and could require a thorough service which could get quite pricey.

That's something that has been said here too.





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[karma67]

well we can all shout buy it! trouble is its very easy to spend other peoples money,when its your own those little doubts play an important part in the thinking.
i nearly spent a grand on a yamaha B1 amp,i thought long and hard and in the end its age and obsolete components put me off. i made the right choice in getting the john wood amp.

[Bigman80]

The Krells are made to dissipate the heat and suffer no more than any other amp in this respect. They are built to last. As to repairs, they are not difficult to do.

The noise levels are low and so using a KSA100 into efficient speakers is not a problem - that's what the volume control is for.

A s/hand Krell is good value and can easily be sold on as there are many who would love to own one.Hifi dave,

You have tipped the scales back to interested again.

I'm not "scared of the heat" I'm scared of the bill that could come.

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[walpurgis]

Think positively. Winter is coming and it will keep the room warm. :)

[Bigman80]

well we can all shout buy it! trouble is its very easy to spend other peoples money,when its your own those little doubts play an important part in the thinking.
i nearly spent a grand on a yamaha B1 amp,i thought long and hard and in the end its age and obsolete components put me off. i made the right choice in getting the john wood amp.I told you not to buy the B1 lol

Too true though, it's very easy when it's not your money and we are all guilty of that. All I'm looking for is someone to say basically whether the heat affects the components, whether it's worth the money, whether it's going to blow up frequently and if the speakers will have an adverse reaction to its introduction.

The sound will speak for itself eventually and after hearing Macca's it's been on my mind to go the Class A route.

I dipped my toes with the Monarchy Audio SM-70 and love what it does. Is bigger better????




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[Mr. C]

The heat is not so much an issue unless you have medium/small room the electric bill makes for interesting reading at the end of the month.

The last pair of Class 'a' amplifiers I used; did cause the green lobby some issues though! my electric bill went up to over £400 that month, mind you they idled at over 3Kw each :mental:

Understand the itch, maybe some one on the forum maybe able to let you use your speakers on their model before purchasing.

[hifi_dave]

There's no way round the fact that big Class-A amps consume the leccie. That's for you to weigh up.

The KSA100 gets hot to the touch, not radiator hot, just very warm The large, open box allows heat to dissipate quite effectively given some air space.

If it has never been serviced, it might need re-capping at some time. If it's working and sounding good, it's worth considering. The quality of the components are high and when you consider that Naim amps need re-capping every 8 - 10 years, it is not a big problem.

[Bigman80]

The heat is not so much an issue unless you have medium/small room the electric bill makes for interesting reading at the end of the month.

The last pair of Class 'a' amplifiers I used; did cause the green lobby some issues though! my electric bill went up to over £400 that month, mind you they idled at over 3Kw each :mental:

Understand the itch, maybe some one on the forum maybe able to let you use your speakers on their model before purchasing.Mr C.

The room is probably 4x3m maybe a little bit bigger into the window, so it's definitely on the Small/Medium side.

I am also going to have to get a rack and totally reorganize the room to get the Krell in. New cables too, due to the repositioning of everything.

Electric bill! Well about 2 hours a day max usage. No idling as I hate leaving stuff on.

I'm happy to do all of the above but only if it's a worthwhile move.



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[Bigman80]

There's no way round the fact that big Class-A amps consume the leccie. That's for you to weigh up.

The KSA100 gets hot to the touch, not radiator hot, just very warm The large, open box allows heat to dissipate quite effectively given some air space.

If it has never been serviced, it might need re-capping at some time. If it's working and sounding good, it's worth considering. The quality of the components are high and when you consider that Naim amps need re-capping every 8 - 10 years, it is not a big problem.It's unlikely to last 8-10 years here with my box swapping addiction [emoji23]

It's all in working order apparently and I have no reason to doubt that.

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[Mr. C]

Oliver

I understand your reasoning via the SM70's and looking for the next step.

The big Krells as I am sure the owners will enlighten you take time to come up to speed, like the Wadia's they need for ALL of the amplifier to reach critical mass (temperature wise) before the sweet spot is reached.

At the time, no one produced an amplifier that had such prestigious power outputs as Krell and speaker impedance and sensitivities were not like they are today, hence why Krell was popular in the mid 80's to late 90's Hell even I owned a pair of FPB600 mono's in the day.

If you were looking to go Krell my suggestion would be a KSA-50 that was really a sweet spot for the early Krell's imho.

Your speakers are an easy drive, and yes they do show all of the noise from down the chain, why not try a quality gain clone or decent switcher you may very well be surprised.

[Primalsea]

I think that if you are as sure as can be that the Krell will do what you hope it will that you should consider going for it. Just try to buy one that has been looked after and just be aware of the sort of issues that you might face.

Recapping can be expensive but you know people who can help you fit new caps. Looking at the circuit the only major expense other than a transformer dying is that the output transistors are 5 / 6 parallel pairs that are probably matched and this could be a bit of a pain to replace. They cost around £6 - 7 quid each but maybe a bit more if you ask the supplier to match them to what you already have in the amp. Again you know people who could do the repair for you and people on AOS can help with advice.

Buying a high end amp of that age there will always a risk. If you’re sure it wil do what you want it’s up to you what you do.

[Bigman80]

I hope I didn't overstate the effects of heat - I was just using that as an example of refuting Macca's assertions rather than simply trashing them with a dismissive "nonsense". It's electrolytic capacitors which are most prone to degradation by heat. They're usually rated at either 85C or 105C for so many hours, but lower temperatures extend their lifetime.
https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx
Personally, I wouldn't rule out buying a Krell because of the heat if I really wanted one.


Yes, I've no doubt that you would find plenty of buyers if you did decide to move it on, and you may even make a profit [emoji38]Thanks for that and no, you didn't overstate it, it's just been repeated a few times.

Another little nugget of information has just landed too,

The KSA50 Is class A to a certain point the A/B. Is that the same as the KSA100 or is it Class A throughout?

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[Macca]

No-one balks at paying a grand to have an expensive MC cart re-tipped every couple of years but they do worry about maybe having to replace a few little caps every Preston Guild?

What's that all about?

Take a look at the pictures of this amp on the internet. See all those massive heatsinks? The reason they are there is to drain away the heat so it does not affect the components. Do people really think this wasn't thought through?

I can see one drawback to an amp like this (apart from it is big) which is for those people who like to have radio 2 (or whatever) on all day in the background while they potter about it isn't really suitable for that. If your the sort of person (like me) who will sit down for a proper, dedicated 3 or 4 hour listening session a few times a week then you will actually appreciate what it can do and running costs won't be astronomical.

[Bigman80]

No-one balks at paying a grand to have an expensive MC cart re-tipped every couple of years but they do worry about maybe having to replace a few little caps every Preston Guild?

What's that all about?

Take a look at the pictures of this amp on the internet. See all those massive heatsinks? The reason they are there is to drain away the heat so it does not affect the components. Do people really think this wasn't thought through?

I can see one drawback to an amp like this (apart from it is big) which is for those people who like to have radio 2 (or whatever) on all day in the background while they potter about it isn't really suitable for that. If your the sort of person (like me) who will sit down for a proper, dedicated 3 or 4 hour listening session a few times a week then you will actually appreciate what it can do and running costs won't be astronomical.You know what Macca, that's a very good point.

I think you're right. I certainly enjoyed yours to the point I'm debating buying one similar.

I have the owners manual, appears it is ClassA if I'm reading it right?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/22922938862be0a4b3e5e3cbeb78f5cf.jpg

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[Mr. C]

Probably the odd one out here, the 50 was the one I felt did the magic, next would be the 250 mono's imho in that era of Krell.

I still have 50's 80's 100's in storage just keep them like my buddy Tim keeps speakers :eyebrows: I collect amplifiers (though I do have the space!)

Recapping is not the end of the universe, over the years I have probably seen around ten or so amplifiers, as Dave said the temperate rating life in hours eg : 2000 hours @ 105C which means most amplifiers would never seen this side of 40C in hot weather, other would generate well over 50C on the outside but way more inside.

Krell's are robust units unless abused. As for changing the caps, personally every 5 years I update my personal amps, are the ones taken out faulty NO, but do they sound the same as newer fresher units no to that either.

Your equipment your choice.

As you mentioned you will have to readjust the system, make longer/shorter cables, different rack if you wish to go to that trouble then grab the bull by the horns and do so.

When I was in my 30's I did the same, these days a little wiser or maybe not :rfl:

[Macca]

You know what Macca, that's a very good point.

I think you're right. I certainly enjoyed yours to the point I'm debating buying one similar.

I have the owners manual, appears it is ClassA if I'm reading it right?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180829/22922938862be0a4b3e5e3cbeb78f5cf.jpg

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You could hang on and see if a KSA50S like mine comes up at some point, but asking price is likely to be around the same as for the KSA100 currently under discussion.

I don't think it is so much the class A operation that makes the amp what it is, it is the ability to double power into lower loads that makes the difference over 'lesser' amplifiers. But that is just my pet theory.

I've used mine playing at pretty high SPL in my fairly large living room for 4 or 5 hours straight and the heatsinks barely get warm. Peter (Petrat) can attest to this as he didn't believe me until he had touched it himself. :)

Okay it got red hot at the Penkridge bake-off but it was working at PA levels for 8 hours continually. Even then we never got the last set of bias lights to come on so there was more to give if we'd needed it.

There's a huge difference between amplifiers like that and the usual badge-engineered consumer tat that makes up the bulk of the market. People in the UK especially just don't appreciate that which is why you can pick these things up here for a grand. Which in an educated market would never happen.

Take a look how much people are paying for second hand Naim or Exposure power amps and just wonder.

[Bigman80]

Ah thanks matey, I thought that was the case. 100w is plenty I think [emoji23]
Yes, it's class A up to its rated output. It's got even more power than that, but not in class A.

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[Bigman80]

You could hang on and see if a KSA50S like mine comes up at some point, but asking price is likely to be around the same as for the KSA100 currently under discussion.

I don't think it is so much the class A operation that makes the amp what it is, it is the ability to double power into lower loads that makes the difference over 'lesser' amplifiers. But that is just my pet theory.

I've used mine playing at pretty high SPL in my fairly large living room for 4 or 5 hours straight and the heatsinks barely get warm. Peter (Petrat) can attest to this as he didn't believe me until he had touched it himself. :)

Okay it got red hot at the Penkridge bake-off but it was working at PA levels for 8 hours continually. Even then we never got the last set of bias lights to come on so there was more to give if we'd needed it.

There's a huge difference between amplifiers like that and the usual badge-engineered consumer tat that makes up the bulk of the market. People in the UK especially just don't appreciate that which is why you can pick these things up here for a grand. Which in an educated market would never happen.

Take a look how much people are paying for second hand Naim or Exposure power amps and just wonder.Spot on with its performance at Penkridge. It was just capable and the character never changed all day. Whatever the volume.

Seriously impressed by it.

Maybe I'll hang on a bit, I do have other irons in the fire and really want to get them over the finish line.

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[DSJR]

I haven't trawled through this thread yet, so forgive me here...

These old original Krells do run very hot indeed and lack the plateau bias of macca's sample, which at least will cool on idling in between cooking (literally) music sessions. 1980's caps weren't always as heat or over-voltage tolerant as newer types appear to be and I can assure you that many first gen Krells will be well off spec now. These early models weren't as complex as macca's though, so a thorough recap may be ok for amateurs able to solder to do. Macca's amp has something like twenty caps per channel and I had a panic attack when I counted them up - fortunately, the circuit used will help a lot here in terms of minimising thermal stress and it's a very different circuit from the originals. Macca's amp had had a fairly easy time for most of its twenty odd year life I gather, as a 'second amp' but now, the replacement FPB models are needing attention if they've been thrashed into panel or ML hybrid speakers, so please be warned...

As for Krell Class A, I thought the 50 and 100 ran *mostly* in A but slid onto AB at the top of their power range, but looking again at the Martin Colloms review in 'Choice he indicates the 50 at any rate is run to 50W in Class A. As these amps can go higher than this, anything is possible, but certainly it appears the full specified output is in Class A and the sound is smooth if a touch 'cloudy' for me - something the 50S isn't in the slightest!

Do PLEASE NOTE - Excessive heat does NOT do 1980's electrolytic or tantalum caps any good at all and a vintage large-Krell bargain could easily turn into a massive and possibly expensive headache. Simon (SQ) has rebuilt two KSA250's I recall and both of them had leaking and bulging caps as well as burn marks where one of them failed spectacularly I seem to remember - I'm sure his story on the last one is buried here somewhere in the archives and I apologise if I have it wrong. He did picture the amp in pieces, stripped down to the last screw and credit where due, he painstakingly repaired and rebuilt it, re-set it up and it looked as good (better?) than new after he'd finished...

Old Naims may be tractor like in build and sound, but my Gawd they're easier to service. Old Linn pre's and power amps are for masochists in comparison with these Krells somewhere in between I feel :D

[Bigman80]

I haven't trawled through this thread yet, so forgive me here...

These old original Krells do run very hot indeed and lack the plateau bias of macca's sample, which at least will cool on idling in between cooking (literally) music sessions. 1980's caps weren't always as heat or over-voltage tolerant as newer types appear to be and I can assure you that many first gen Krells will be well off spec now. These early models weren't as complex as macca's though, so a thorough recap may be ok for amateurs able to solder to do. maccas ampo has something like twenty caps per channel and I had a panic attack when I counted them up - fortunately, the circuit used will help a lot here in terms of thermal stress and it's a very different circuit from the originals. Mavcca's amp had had a fairly easy life as a 'second amp' but now, the replacement FPB models are needing attention if they've been thrashed into panel or ML hybrid speakers, so please be warned...

As for Krell Class A, I thought the 50 and 100 ran *mostly* in A but slid onto AB at the top of their power range, but looking again at the Martin Colloms review in 'Choice he indicates the 50 at any rate is run to 50W in Class A. As these amps can go higher than this, anything is possible, but certainly it appears the ful specified output is in Class A.

Do PLEASE NOTE - Excessive heat does NOT do 1980's electrolytic or tantalum caps any good at all and a vintage large-Krell bargain could easily turn into a headache. Simon (SQ) has rebuilt two KSA250's I recall and both of them had leaking and bulging caps as well as burn marks where one of them failed spectacularly I seem to remember - I'm sure his story on the last one is buried here somewhere in the archives and I apologise if I have it wrong. He did picture the amp in pieces, stripped down to the last screw and credit where due, he painstakingly repaired and rebuilt it, re-set it up and it looked as good (better?) than new after he'd finished...

Old Naims may be tractor like in build and sound, but my Gawd they're easier to service. Old Linn pre's and power amps are for masochists in comparison with these Krells somewhere in between I feel :DThanks Dave,

That's exactly the input I needed. Glad I turned it down as the stress was killing me lol.

Now, where can I find a second Monarchy Audio SM-70???????

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[DSJR]

Going back to the late 80's, Jimmy Hughes had THREE KSA50's used first in an Isobarik active system where they did sound lovely, even with the first generation Naim active crossover. he went passive with one or two speaker models (modified Arcam 2's were notable) before finishing off with his beloved Impulse H2's which sounded great in his odd split level room.

What was his wonder-amp of choice then?

DNM!!!!! 25WPC of cool running greatness I have to say. No idea if any survive now, or how they'd compare today, but back then and driven with long solid core interconnects too, the sound was natural and totally un-fatiguing...

[Bigman80]

Going back to the late 80's, Jimmy Hughes had THREE KSA50's used first in an Isobarik active system where they did sound lovely, even with the first generation Naim active crossover. he went passive with one or two speaker models (modified Arcam 2's were notable) before finishing off with his beloved Impulse H2's which sounded great in his odd split level room.

What was his wonder-amp of choice then?

DNM!!!!! 25WPC of cool running greatness I have to say. No idea if any survive now, or how they'd compare today, but back then and driven with long solid core interconnects too, the sound was natural and totally un-fatiguing...Not heard of that Dave.

I know it's. Very subjective issue all this hifi but it's great fun isn't it.

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[Macca]

DNM did always have a great rep but you never see any around nowadays.

[hifi_dave]

I believe they/he are long gone.

Back in the day we sold a few DNM pre-amps, which were good but couldn't get along with the power-amps, which were a bit 'tweaky' with their plastic cases, DIN sockets and low output. Very expensive.

[hifi_dave]

It's an old site, though appears to have been updated recently. I was in contact with Dennis for years but I was under the impression he was going to retire.

[Firebottle]

Now, where can I find a second Monarchy Audio SM-70???????

:scratch::D

[Bigman80]

Lol, not the SM70 PRO.
:scratch::D

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[Pigmy Pony]

Going back to the late 80's, Jimmy Hughes had THREE KSA50's used first in an Isobarik active system where they did sound lovely, even with the first generation Naim active crossover. he went passive with one or two speaker models (modified Arcam 2's were notable) before finishing off with his beloved Impulse H2's which sounded great in his odd split level room.

What was his wonder-amp of choice then?

DNM!!!!! 25WPC of cool running greatness I have to say. No idea if any survive now, or how they'd compare today, but back then and driven with long solid core interconnects too, the sound was natural and totally un-fatiguing...

Yes and he also reckoned putting beer mats under three of his table legs improved the sound! :D

[sq225917]

Oli,
The KSA pre-dates all the sustained plateau bias nonsense. It's a good old fashioned Class A amp with both driver and output stages running in 100% class A all the time. They take about an hour to get up to temperature. They don't get that hot due to the heat tunnel arrangement, the KSA 200 gets much hotter. Assuming typical use, 20 hours a week they shouldn't need recapping more than once every ten years, the caps are about £140 each these days. They are easy to work on, the user and service manuals are pretty much public domain and there's no unobtanium inside them, some of the jfets are getting harder to find in the right value range, but they are still available and like for like alternatives exist for most parts. The only thing that would steer me away from one would be a noisy transformer, electrically as opposed to being able to hear the core constrict a bit at inrush as you turn it on.

They'll drive any speaker, even maggies and they sound great with a wonderfully fluid top-end that few amps can match and stygian bass, if maybe a slight tendency to depth over resolution at the bottom end.

Get it at a good price and you'll never lose cash on it Perfect for winter.

[User211]

Yes any Beard amps I've heard have been very good. (With Tannoys too :) ). Justin brought round one with six EL84s per channel, which was superb with HPDs.

All getting a bit old now but of course can be fixed up.And I had to send it to France as no one here would buy it. Big mistake. Very nice amp and IMO one of the best looking valve amps around.

Krell KSA50 MK1 with a passive pre on Apogees was pretty dreadful really. So work it hard and it was still rubbish.

Krell KAV-300i was a lot better (Jerry's amp) but markedly so with a valve pre rather than a passive. But Jerry liked the passive.

I still wouldn't use the 300 but on Jerry's speakers somehow it was fabulous. Best amp I have heard on them.

[User211]

However, Krell KSA50 and ARC LS26 on Mark&Daniel Sapphires - really good.

Krell and ARC was a common pairing and it really worked here.

[Bigman80]

Oli,
The KSA pre-dates all the sustained plateau bias nonsense. It's a good old fashioned Class A amp with both driver and output stages running in 100% class A all the time. They take about an hour to get up to temperature. They don't get that hot due to the heat tunnel arrangement, the KSA 200 gets much hotter. Assuming typical use, 20 hours a week they shouldn't need recapping more than once every ten years, the caps are about £140 each these days. They are easy to work on, the user and service manuals are pretty much public domain and there's no unobtanium inside them, some of the jfets are getting harder to find in the right value range, but they are still available and like for like alternatives exist for most parts. The only thing that would steer me away from one would be a noisy transformer, electrically as opposed to being able to hear the core constrict a bit at inrush as you turn it on.

They'll drive any speaker, even maggies and they sound great with a wonderfully fluid top-end that few amps can match and stygian bass, if maybe a slight tendency to depth over resolution at the bottom end.

Get it at a good price and you'll never lose cash on it Perfect for winter.Cheers mate,

I've been doing some serious digging and yes, a recap etc is about £140 in bits and like you say, replacement parts are still available. I am also lucky to have two extremely competent engineers i can call upon for some help if i need it.

I've contacted the seller to arrange a listen after telling him i was no longer interested so he might tell me to bollocks [emoji848] He's also off to Australia for a couple of weeks so unlikely to happen before the start of September.

I'm gonna take a punt I think but I need a couple of other bits to drop into place first which I should be able to do in the time he's away.

Let's see what happens.

Thanks for your post, it was the sensible approach I needed to hear.

UPDATE:

He didn't tell me to bollocks so i'll be going for a listen in a couple of weeks upon his return!



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[alphaGT]

Think positively. Winter is coming and it will keep the room warm. :)

Exactly!

Russ

[alphaGT]

There are a few things I had to get used to when I got my Krell. Yes it does get warm, but never so warm I can’t lay my hand on it. And yes, in Winter it can help heat the room. I had to learn not to set anything on top of it. I had to get an extra table, my rack had the amp on the bottom shelf, so I set up a short rack/table to the side so my Krell can set on top, with plenty of air to keep itself cool. And, so I can reach over it and turn the main power switch on and off, located on the rear. The front button puts it in standby, and like you I don’t subscribe to leaving gear on all the time. It heats up quickly, it doesn’t take an hour to sound right, it sounds pretty good cold, and may sound better after 15 minutes. I have mine plugged into a large power filter and it shows amperage consumption in real time, at realistic volumes it’s not drawing any 8amps, I promise. It may spike when you first power on, but once idling it isn’t hard to drive. So, having it at the top of the rack was my biggest concession. And I had to get my nephews to pick it up and place it on the table, their eyes and buttholes poking out from the surprising 135 pounds!

All Krells have inherent value, they will always be worth money, even if it was non-functional, you can still get money for it. A Krell that has been serviced in recent years is worth even more! The cost of re-capping is merely incidental, as amps that have been re-capped are worth more than those who haven’t. The KSA-100 is a particularly sought after amp.

So all that’s left is to go hear it. If it doesn’t Trip Your trigger, then so be it. But, there’s a real chance you’ll hear the magic pure class A can offer. They go through all the trouble and expense for a reason, because it’s worth it.

Russell

[Bigman80]

Thanks Russell,

I have a plan for its siting and I should allow plenty of air to flow.

I had a look at the parts etc for a service and possibly rebuild and it's not as bad as I feared. The main selling point is whatever I do to it in terms of servicing will only increase the value and it's unlikely to end up losing money if I get it and don't like it.

If I go and it works then it'll probably come back with me. How many blokes shall I take to pick it up? Just kidding, I'll do it myself [emoji6]
There are a few things I had to get used to when I got my Krell. Yes it does get warm, but never so warm I can’t lay my hand on it. And yes, in Winter it can help heat the room. I had to learn not to set anything on top of it. I had to get an extra table, my rack had the amp on the bottom shelf, so I set up a short rack/table to the side so my Krell can set on top, with plenty of air to keep itself cool. And, so I can reach over it and turn the main power switch on and off, located on the rear. The front button puts it in standby, and like you I don’t subscribe to leaving gear on all the time. It heats up quickly, it doesn’t take an hour to sound right, it sounds pretty good cold, and may sound better after 15 minutes. I have mine plugged into a large power filter and it shows amperage consumption in real time, at realistic volumes it’s not drawing any 8amps, I promise. It may spike when you first power on, but once idling it isn’t hard to drive. So, having it at the top of the rack was my biggest concession. And I had to get my nephews to pick it up and place it on the table, their eyes and buttholes poking out from the surprising 135 pounds!

All Krells have inherent value, they will always be worth money, even if it was non-functional, you can still get money for it. A Krell that has been serviced in recent years is worth even more! The cost of re-capping is merely incidental, as amps that have been re-capped are worth more than those who haven’t. The KSA-100 is a particularly sought after amp.

So all that’s left is to go hear it. If it doesn’t Trip Your trigger, then so be it. But, there’s a real chance you’ll hear the magic pure class A can offer. They go through all the trouble and expense for a reason, because it’s worth it.

Russell

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[smangus]

Good luck with it Oliver , we'll know if you get it as there'll be reports of streetlighting blackouts in Wolverhampton when you switch it on by the sounds of it!! :lol::eek:

[DSJR]

Yes and he also reckoned putting beer mats under three of his table legs improved the sound! :D

I'm definitely never going down the Peter Belt route ever again ;) but before he turned his Impulse speakers to face the centre of the wall behind them, he was getting a good sound in his odd room and I used to very much enjoy visiting him every few months...

[oceanobsession]

Maybe its time to buy some different speakers , seems to me you may have tried a variety of different amps looking for improvements in sound quality but although very good your speakers may be they are never going to hit the mark . phil.

[Bigman80]

Good luck with it Oliver , we'll know if you get it as there'll be reports of streetlighting blackouts in Wolverhampton when you switch it on by the sounds of it!! [emoji38]:eek:[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

The lights will dip in London with this thing !!!



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[Bigman80]

Maybe its time to buy some different speakers , seems to me you may have tried a variety of different amps looking for improvements in sound quality but although very good your speakers may be they are never going to hit the mark . phil.Hi Phil,

I see where you are coming from but the speakers are certainly not the issue. Neither is the Monarchy Audio SM-70 I'm currently using.

Truth is there isn't any complaints about what I am currently listening to but the itch came to try a Krell after the Penkridge bakeoff. One has turned up locally for A price I'm happy to try one for, so here we are.

It's a curiousity piece rather than coming from a point of being unhappy.

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[Floyddroid]

Yes and he also reckoned putting beer mats under three of his table legs improved the sound! :D

Yes but the Krell beer mats were over a grand each ha ha.

[DSJR]

I'm going to say this and face the consequences...

If the speaker loading is reasonable and the amp design not quirky or cable fussy with wild measurement issues, I think I can suggest that many amps actually DO sound broadly similar as long as they're not clipping. The 45 year old thing I'm using in the main system currently sounds exactly like macca's Krell did here, with a kind of 'studio' presentation - slightly dry and lean but with good insight and clarity, possibly almost too lean and dry in a 'musical' sense. This suits the speakers I have here at the moment as they're too prone to letting it all hang out. The thing is, give this geriatric amp anything remotely like a difficult load at high powers (4 ohms and less) and it immediately current limits to protect itself, so would be utterly useless here, when the Krell would be romping away to over 160WPC - probably nearer 200WPC I remember from the reviews and hearting up to egg-frying levels with no issues at all!

Biggie, I do hope you like this old amp, but the only way I think it's going to improve anything is with the increased dynamic range on tap into any reasonable load you care to give it. This feeling is addictive if the amp does it right.

Big amps like this are usually set down in between the speakers with short speaker cables and longer interconnects, hence my recommendation for a line buffer to drive it rather than a passive or transformer coupled thing, which will add its own distortions anyway (even if you like them :D) ARC preamps can be very coloured things, but the late 80's-early 90's krells seemed to match well, two wrongs kind of making a right at the time I remember.

[Bigman80]

I'm going to say this and face the consequences...

If the speaker loading is reasonable and the amp design not quirky or cable fussy with wild measurement issues, I think I can suggest that many amps actually DO sound broadly similar as long as they're not clipping. The 45 year old thing I'm using in the main system currently sounds exactly like macca's Krell did here, with a kind of 'studio' presentation - slightly dry and lean but with good insight and clarity, possibly almost too lean and dry in a 'musical' sense. This suits the speakers I have here at the moment as they're too prone to letting it all hang out. The thing is, give this geriatric amp anything remotely like a difficult load at high powers (4 ohms and less) and it immediately current limits to protect itself, so would be utterly useless here, when the Krell would be romping away to over 160WPC - probably nearer 200WPC I remember from the reviews and hearting up to egg-frying levels with no issues at all!

Biggie, I do hope you like this old amp, but the only way I think it's going to improve anything is with the increased dynamic range on tap into any reasonable load you care to give it. This feeling is addictive if the amp does it right.

Big amps like this are usually set down in between the speakers with short speaker cables and longer interconnects, hence my recommendation for a line buffer to drive it rather than a passive or transformer coupled thing, which will add its own distortions anyway (even if you like them :D) ARC preamps can be very coloured things, but the late 80's-early 90's krells seemed to match well, two wrongs kind of making a right at the time I remember.Thanks for that Dave,

I get exactly what you are saying. The DCB1 is a buffer without gain so that should be fine for the task?. The amp will sit between the speakers so the speaker cables will be much shorter and will be of better quality as it's cheaper to buy 2m of cable than the 7m I currently have to buy.

Luckily the SPOTFIRE ics are abundant here so longer ones aren't an issue [emoji6]

Macca made a point, many posts back, that I may not keep the pioneers forever and he's quite right. I do have plans to convert the Garage into the music room and that would allow for much larger speakers. It's a nice thought to know that whatever the new speakers would be, won't trouble that Krell. I also have first dibs on Macca's JMLABS which would be perfect in the new room, just need 10 years to get that done [emoji23]

A good amp shouldn't really be much different from other good amps and if they are of sufficient quality, the SS v Valve arguement becomes void too IME. We agree there too.

I hope I like the Krell too but if I don't, I still have a phenomenal amp on the Monarchy Audio SM-70 so it's not the end of the world.

It's a safe purchase as I won't lose money on it if I dont like it and if I do, it'll be a bargain (ish)



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[Bigman80]

Little update.

Fetching the Krell on 12/9.

[emoji50]



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[Stryder5]

Knew you couldn't resist long :guitar:

Gary



Little update.

Fetching the Krell on 12/9.

[emoji50]



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[Bigman80]

Knew you couldn't resist long :guitar:

GaryIt's calling me Gary [emoji12]

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[Stryder5]

It's calling me Gary [emoji12]

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If it's calling you Gary then surely it's mine:ner:

[Bigman80]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Nope
If it's calling you Gary then surely it's mine:ner:

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[struth]

It's calling me Gary [emoji12]

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tell it to call you Oli:ner:

Gonna be a 3 way classA shootoff then

[Bigman80]

The power of a ,

The difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle Jack, off a horse.

tell it to call you Oli:ner:

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[sq225917]

Just for the record when I said £140, that's per cap for the PSU in the KSA200 - and there's six of em in the KSA200.

Luckily the KSA100 only has 4 and they're slightly smaller and cheaper.

Pop the lid when you get it home, if it has any of the red bakelite bodied caps left in it I'd replace them as a matter of urgency. There's bound to be some split ones in there.

[Bigman80]

Just for the record when I said £140, that's per cap for the PSU in the KSA200 - and there's six of em in the KSA200.

Luckily the KSA100 only has 4 and they're slightly smaller and cheaper.

Pop the lid when you get it home, if it has any of the red bakelite bodied caps left in it I'd replace them as a matter of urgency. There's bound to be some split ones in there.Yes mate, It was pointed out to me again and then realised what you'd said.

I have found some replacement caps that are of suitable spec for around £70 per cap so I can manage one a month [emoji23][emoji23]

I will definitely pop the lid, there if I can, at home if not. Thanks for the heads up.

I have Phonomac on speed dial ready to book a month of his time bringing it up to speed.

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[alphaGT]

12/9, that’s a lot of time to wait. I’d be anxious by then! You’ll soon be a member of a very exclusive club, the Krell owner’s club.

Everyone in high end has heard of Krell, and everyone has an opinion of them. But nobody looks down on Krell! A well respected company for the most part.

I certainly do not have to have a melt down to enjoy the benefits of pure Class A, in fact, I think the difference is obvious when playing at the lowest volumes. When it’s barely cracked open, it still sounds full and dynamic. Your idea of buying one cap a month until you’ve got the lot is a great idea! I may borrow that, and start saving up some for mine.

Russell

[Bigman80]

12/9, that’s a lot of time to wait. I’d be anxious by then! You’ll soon be a member of a very exclusive club, the Krell owner’s club.

Everyone in high end has heard of Krell, and everyone has an opinion of them. But nobody looks down on Krell! A well respected company for the most part.

I certainly do not have to have a melt down to enjoy the benefits of pure Class A, in fact, I think the difference is obvious when playing at the lowest volumes. When it’s barely cracked open, it still sounds full and dynamic. Your idea of buying one cap a month until you’ve got the lot is a great idea! I may borrow that, and start saving up some for mine.

Russell12/9 = 12th September here remember [emoji6]

The Krell, its been divisive hasn't it. Some folks wouldn't touch it with a barge pole other have been moved to message me and stress it's qualities, reliability and SQ.

It's either Class A all the way or an imposter according to some folks and even then, does that matter? I suspect it might but we'll see.

Its been a strange one. I wasn't looking for an amp, I got wind of this one and since then it's been niggling away at me to get it. When I decide to go for it, the Luxman-Luxkit pops up too. By the end of next week there will be 5 different amplifiers here and I wasn't even looking!

Krell aren't such a big name in HiFi because their stuff is crap, in fact, I haven't read a bad review about the KSA100. The only thing I really want to know is if any of them can beat the Monarchy Audio SM-70 because that is a benchmark amp IMO.

IF they beat it (I'm not confident they will) then it was a worthwhile exercise. If not, I've got some selling to do.





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[Bigman80]

My thoughts on Krell are that the concept is a marketing-led, box-ticking exercise. All audiophiles are taught that class A is better than any other class, right? All audiophiles are taught that more power is better than less power, right? If an amp is going to be class A and high power, it's going to be big and heavy and that isn't going to be cheap, so now we have the audiophile's dream - class A, powerful, big, heavy and expensive. It's got to sound fantastic - right?
Personally, I don't think that ticking all those boxes necessarily leads to a great sounding amp. That's not to say that the Krell isn't a great sounding amp - I really don't have enough experience of them to say either way - but if it is, it's not because a few design choice boxes have been ticked.

Is it pure class A or an imposter? My understanding is that the early ones which run very hot all the time are pure class A. The later ones which don't run hot all the time aren't pure class A but have a sliding bias arrangement. Does that make them inferior? In my opinion, no, it's a sensible design choice to make them more efficient. However, you've got to ask why they changed to the cooler-running, sliding bias scheme. Was it because the original ones had heat-related problems?

Anyway Oliver, you'll find out for yourself if you like the amp soon enough. If you're happy with it, that's a result. If not, you can sell it.
I'll be interested to find out what you think of it in due course.You make some great points there mate, and yes, I agree that ticking all those boxes doesn't mean it's a great amp.

The Monarchy is exactly the opposite, sold new for about $800 (?), isn't particularly high powered (25w per channel class A I think) is diminutive in size but the sound is like liquid gold. Honestly, I know I'm raving again about it but I still just can't figure out why Geoff sold it. He must be sat on something stupendous.

Heat issues - I can't find anything, anywhere that suggests the unit's components suffer from degradation at an accelerated rate due to the heat. Infact, i spoke to a guy who has had his since 1989, Only got it serviced in 2015 and it needed nothing doing. Everything measured within spec too. He sought a second opinion to be told the same.

Not saying that every one will be the same but usually, if there was trend, it would be easy to find the complaints/repair threads online.

SQ - the one I heard is a KSA50s so a different animal. I'm kind of buying blind but at the price I am looking at, there little chance I'll lose on it if I move it on.

I plan to do a bakeoff with the Lux 504, the Krell and the Monarchy. I'll share my experience!




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[sq225917]

The KSA 50, 100 and 200 all run high fixed bias of between 700mV and 900mV across the 1 ohm emitter resistors in the output stage. That puts them into class A for their full rated power. Every model that came after these 3 the KSA-S versions and all the other numbered designs KSA250, FPB models and everything else used a much lower bias and are just big class AB amps. The KSA 250 for example runs 110mV or thereabouts over the emitter resistor and as such can only provide class A power for the first 25 watts into an 8 ohm load, so it's very definitely a Class AB amp.

We could argue until the cows come home what one person thinks the definition of class A is but the fact remains that those three KSA models have sufficient standing bias to operate in class A for all of their rated output power, they are all complimentary designs and the output devices conduct for the full 360 degrees of the input waveform. Where I'm sat that makes them class A, no ifs or buts.

I couldn't care less what anything thinks about the brand, their history, their marketing, how they did business or anything else that they'd emotionally like to attach to the brand. I'm not interested in their baggage and none of it alters the fact that these first three amps were all class A, all the time. You could be of the opinion that a 'real class A amp' has to be single ended, but the literature disagrees. A single ended amp has to be class A, but a Class A amp does not have to be single ended.


KSA 50s, that's a class AB design.

[anthonyTD]

Some further thoughts on the class issue, and the Lux amps in paticular;
From what I have experienced with these paticular amps over the 15 years or so of listening to them in various systems, here are some personal observations;
In class A mode these amps can be biased hot, [around 2 Amp] or quite cold, [around 900 MA] somewhere in the middle there is a sweet spot, [which will be dependant on the rest of the system, But personaly, I would say around 1.2 Amp] ] the following descriptions are somewhat extreme but hopefuly it will get my point accross; If the amp is biased too hot, it can sound slow,Fat, and ploddy, if its biased too cool, it will sound quicker, but lighter, and more forward sounding etc, to be honest,as a starting point; these amps sound very good in the A/B set up, [as stated in an earlier post, the class is determined by the Bias, and the selected transformer windings etc]I guess what I am saying is; Just make sure the amp is set up properly in its chosen class, before evaluating it properly.
Good listening.:)
A...

[Bigman80]

The KSA 50, 100 and 200 all run high fixed bias of between 700mV and 900mV across the 1 ohm emitter resistors in the output stage. That puts them into class A for their full rated power. Every model that came after these 3 the KSA-S versions and all the other numbered designs KSA250, FPB models and everything else used a much lower bias and are just big class AB amps. The KSA 250 for example runs 110mV or thereabouts over the emitter resistor and as such can only provide class A power for the first 25 watts into an 8 ohm load, so it's very definitely a Class AB amp.

We could argue until the cows come home what one person thinks the definition of class A is but the fact remains that those three KSA models have sufficient standing bias to operate in class A for all of their rated output power, they are all complimentary designs and the output devices conduct for the full 360 degrees of the input waveform. Where I'm sat that makes them class A, no ifs or buts.

I couldn't care less what anything thinks about the brand, their history, their marketing, how they did business or anything else that they'd emotionally like to attach to the brand. I'm not interested in their baggage and none of it alters the fact that these first three amps were all class A, all the time. You could be of the opinion that a 'real class A amp' has to be single ended, but the literature disagrees. A single ended amp has to be class A, but a Class A amp does not have to be single ended.


KSA 50s, that's a class AB design.Thanks for this. It's nice to know that it's not just twisted marketing.





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[Bigman80]

Some further thoughts on the class issue, and the Lux amps in paticular;
From what I have experienced with these paticular amps over the 15 years or so of listening to them in various systems, here are some personal observations;
In class A mode these amps can be biased hot, [around 2 Amp] or quite cold, [around 900 MA] somewhere in the middle there is a sweet spot, [which will be dependant on the rest of the system, But personaly, I would say around 1.2 Amp] ] the following descriptions are somewhat extreme but hopefuly it will get my point accross; If the amp is biased too hot, it can sound slow,Fat, and ploddy, if its biased too cool, it will sound quicker, but lighter, and more forward sounding etc, to be honest,as a starting point; these amps sound very good in the A/B set up, [as stated in an earlier post, the class is determined by the Bias, and the selected transformer windings etc]I guess what I am saying is; Just make sure the amp is set up properly in its chosen class, before evaluating it properly.
Good listening.:)
A...Thanks Anthony,

Currently, I don't know what the Lux is set up for, I'm presuming it will be as it was from the factory which should be A/B although the dealers did give the option to the customer.

When it gets here, I will obviously plug it in and give it a listen but I do have plans to get it to Phonomac and let him give it the once over and get it into Class A mode. I will pass on your thoughts on the bias and ask him to do his stuff with it. This is an area he knows well so I am lucky he's a good guy.

If it's ok, I may drop you a message or two over the course of action just to get your thoughts. I'm pleased someone with your knowledge has some exposure to this amp.



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[anthonyTD]

No worries! :)
Yes, fine.
A...
Thanks Anthony,

Currently, I don't know what the Lux is set up for, I'm presuming it will be as it was from the factory which should be A/B although the dealers did give the option to the customer.

When it gets here, I will obviously plug it in and give it a listen but I do have plans to get it to Phonomac and let him give it the once over and get it into Class A mode. I will pass on your thoughts on the bias and ask him to do his stuff with it. This is an area he knows well so I am lucky he's a good guy.

If it's ok, I may drop you a message or two over the course of action just to get your thoughts. I'm pleased someone with your knowledge has some exposure to this amp.



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[Bigman80]

No worries! :)
Yes, fine.
A...Great stuff. Thank you.

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[DSJR]

Seriously, the whole class a or ab issue became pretty much a non event in the 80's when better matched and higher power transistors filtered into domestic availability I gather from a trusted engineer source who researched all this for his own successful designs beck then - the need for ungodly numbers of paralleled output transistors per channel significantly reduced, certainly in the mid 90's when new devices came on stream.

As for Krell's claims, my understanding was that say, if the original KSA 50 claimed 50WPC 'Class A' then this it would do (in the current definition of the term for a complimentary output stage) for the first 50 Watts (confirmed by Colloms reviews and heat generated ;)) BUT, the amp would then slide into AB for the remaining power available, as the '50' was in truth a 90WPC amp into 8 ohms according to tests I've read. All playing with terms and numbers I suspect and only of any importance to spec freaks.

I'd like to add that this whole situation in US based Top End was almost certainly the popularity of panel (various types) speakers in the 80's and early 90's having cruel loading and inefficiency, needing humongous amps with huge power supplies to drive them at all, let alone properly. Those days are gone now, but I've heard tales of older large Krells suffering thermal wear after thirty years - they're not as reliable as their exalted reputation would suggest and even the FPB models can suffer it seems now. Just don't pay silly money for them, that's all...

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


As for Krell's claims, my understanding was that say, if the original KSA 50 claimed 50WPC 'Class A' then this it would do (in the current definition of the term for a complimentary output stage) for the first 50 Watts (confirmed by Colloms reviews and heat generated ;))

Indeed. so in reality that's plenty enough power to produce a fantastic (way more than loud enough) sound, given the use of speakers that are efficient, and a room that's not too big. For me that's the real issue here, in terms of maximising the (undoubted) sonic advantages of Class A, done well.

The problem is these days there's a dearth of really good high-efficiency speakers, and the best ones are BIG, so most folks aren't willing (or able) to house them.

The fact is, however, that in most domestic situations, given the use of large, quality high-efficiency loudspeakers (say 92db and above), if you are lucky enough to own such [count me in with the Tannoys. which are 95db], 50W of Class A is more than enough to take the roof off your house, never mind blow your ears away!:D;)

So ultimately, in terms of the above Krell, it's the first 50W that matters!! Not the rated full output of the amplifier. Jeez, with large speakers of 92db efficiency and more, HALF of that power, in an average sized room, would still be deafening.

Therefore, all this pish about which type of amplifier is truly representative of being a Class A design, is moot, and in the real world (the one you listen in) completely irrelevant.

The fact is, as long as the amp concerned is used well within its Class A power envelope, which in the above scenario would almost certainly be the case, then you'll be hearing (and enjoying) the subsequent sound, delivered in Class A. Simples:cool:

Marco.

[Macca]

Fact is a modern class B amp will have crossover distortion that is way below audible levels so the advantage of class A operation isn't what it used to be by comparison.

I think it's more important that the amp has the ability to drive low impedance loads without flaking out. That's the big advantage of amps like the classic Krells. Assuming you don't just listen at low volumes and to simple acoustic music of course.


The 50watt KSA50s had no problem filling a church hall with sound with absolutely no distortion evident and it didn't even get to the third level of plateau biasing. Speakers were 90dB efficiency which isn't that high by modern standards.


It's all very well to say get more efficient speakers but the iron rule is you can only ever have two of these three: Deep bass - high efficiency - small cabs. So to get decent bass response from a high sensitivity speaker it needs to be big: fridge-freezer big. Wardrobe big. Yes you could use a sub but we've all been there and know how that works out. Even best case it's never quite as good. And before someone says DSP, well no. You can iron out peaks with it but using it to bring up the level of the low bass requires a ton of power - thousands of watts. So your super-efficient speakers need to be able to handle that. Good luck!

[anthonyTD]

The class of any amplifier is only relevant if you like what the whole package does, whether it be class A, AB, or D etc, if it doesent connect with you on a musical level, then it matters not.
There are some very good examples of amplifiers from all topologies, and there are equaly as many bad examples etc, its the design over-all that makes for a Great, or not so Great product.
A...

[Marco]

Fact is a modern class B amp will have crossover distortion that is way below audible levels so the advantage of class A operation isn't what it used to be by comparison.


Yup, but in my experience, when genuine Class A's done well, in the right amplifier, sonically it takes some beating.

However, as you say, Class A alone, is no magic bullet, just the same as anything else in audio isn't. Therefore, an amplifier will always be more about the SUM of its parts, than the influence of any single aspect of its design, and ultimately *that* is what it'll be judged on:)


The 50watt KSA50s had no problem filling a church hall with sound with absolutely no distortion evident and it didn't even get to the third level of plateau biasing. Speakers were 90dB efficiency which isn't that high by modern standards.


Which system and/or instance are you referring to above? Sorry, but it's not clear.


It's all very well to say get more efficient speakers but the iron rule is you can only ever have two of these three: Deep bass - high efficiency - small cabs. So to get decent bass response from a high sensitivity speaker it needs to be big: fridge-freezer big. Wardrobe big.


Yup, like my Lockies... Best (220 litre) 'wardrobes' I've ever bought! Shown below at Scalford Hall, as part of an AoS system we demonstrated, along with my TD Copper amp and various other bits of kit (note how the speakers are wider than the door - no weeny-boy WAF pish there!:eyebrows:):

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6008/scalford2.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2563/scalfordhall2010.jpg


As you know, the combination of the above 95db efficient, 15" Tannoy DC-equipped 'wardrobes', and the Copper amp, with either 30W of Class A, fitted with KT88s (or 50W Class A, fitted with KT120s), when either is operated within its Class A power envelope, is quite something.

I just hope, mate, that you can get your own Tannoy DCs built before Christmas!!:cool:

Marco.

[Macca]

)



Which system and/or instance are you referring to above? Sorry, but it's not clear.

.

The phono stage bake off we did at Penkridge a couple of months back. My speakers and power amp, Firebottle KIN pre amp. Big hall, bigger than a basketball court. I walked in and thought 50 watts? No chance. But it was more than adequate.

[Marco]

Ah, I get you now. Sure, I don't doubt it. That won't necessarily be the case though with another 50W amp, which employs a different type of topology;)

My experience of solid-state Class A amps, done well, is a bit like it is with good valve amps, in that their loudness capabilities belie the power (on paper) they're rated at, and so sound rather louder/more powerful than you'd expect:)

Marco.

[Macca]

I reckon it is to do with the current delivery, as I said earlier on. Not the watts. Going from 100 watts to 200 wats is only 3dB louder which is noticeable but not a lot. Then you're up to 400 watts just to get another 3 dB and after that it starts getting silly. But if you're caning it and the power supply starts to sag that's when you hear it start to fall apart.

Just had a listen to another 'Class A', a Monarchy amp that used to belong to Geoff. A very good amplifier, goes on my approved list.

[Bigman80]

I reckon it is to do with the current delivery, as I said earlier on. Not the watts. Going from 100 watts to 200 wats is only 3dB louder which is noticeable but not a lot. Then you're up to 400 watts just to get another 3 dB and after that it starts getting silly. But if you're caning it and the power supply starts to sag that's when you hear it start to fall apart.

Just had a listen to another 'Class A', a Monarchy amp that used to belong to Geoff. A very good amplifier, goes on my approved list.The Monarchy is a class act. Back up and running here and sounding superb.

A bit of ZZ Top [emoji6]

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[Macca]

A bit of ZZ Top [emoji6]

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IIRC it should play absolutely perfect that LP, there's not a mark on it.

[Bigman80]

Needs a clean mate, few clicks and pops lol
IIRC it should play absolutely perfect that LP, there's not a mark on it.

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[Macca]

It has had a proper clean on my Moth but that was a few years back so I guess it's picked up a few bits again.

[Bigman80]

It has had a proper clean on my Moth but that was a few years back so I guess it's picked up a few bits again.

Nothing major, just a few bits but defo needs a clean. no scratches though and the SQ is excellent. I just couldn't give up Vinyl.

Listening to it again now, i love it!!!

[Marco]

I reckon it is to do with the current delivery, as I said earlier on.

Just had a listen to another 'Class A', a Monarchy amp that used to belong to Geoff. A very good amplifier, goes on my approved list.

Yes, that's undoubtedly a big part of it. I also rate the Monarchy. As I said earlier, I think you'll find that Class A amps, done well, will take some beating:)

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Its here!!!!

It's also a MK2!!

Good grief it's heavy.

Got some paint on, missing some feet but nothing untoward about the sound at the demo. Looking forward to getting this plugged in. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/ad78bb39e89de6248520bdf2a5390e0e.jpg

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[Bigman80]

Probably dripped off the ceiling when the house started to melt [emoji38][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787] that really made me laugh, top marks.

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[Macca]

Look at the rust on it! Has it been at the bottom of a river or something?

[struth]

superficial by looks of it. easy to clean up. as long as its fine inside. bet your back is less than happy

[Bigman80]

What rust?
Look at the rust on it! Has it been at the bottom of a river or something?

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[karma67]

looks sweet as!
i think macca is referring to the screw heads

[hifi_dave]

Its here!!!!

It's also a MK2!!

Good grief it's heavy.

Got some paint on, missing some feet but nothing untoward about the sound at the demo. Looking forward to getting this plugged in. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/ad78bb39e89de6248520bdf2a5390e0e.jpg

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That brings back some memories of the good ol' days, when we used to sell them every week, usually with an SP8.

[Bigman80]

That brings back some memories of the good ol' days, when we used to sell them every week, usually with an SP8.It's a proper monster of an amp. Can't wait to try it. May not be until tomorrow though. [emoji21]

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[Macca]

looks sweet as!
i think macca is referring to the screw heads

Yes, you've got to sort that out. Even I couldn't live with that.

[Bigman80]

They are brass [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Yes, you've got to sort that out. Even I couldn't live with that.

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[Bigman80]

It will be with some feet and a clean.
looks sweet as!
i think macca is referring to the screw heads

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[struth]

whats the wee plate on front for?

[Bigman80]

Branding mate. I'll put some better pics on in a bit.
whats the wee plate on front for?

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[Macca]

That brings back some memories of the good ol' days, when we used to sell them every week, usually with an SP8.

That must have been before the internet was around, so no-one knew that they are expensive to fix, run too hot, won't work well with sensitive speakers, don't sound very good anyway and aren't really class A. (Did I miss anything :D).

[montesquieu]

That must have been before the internet was around, so no-one knew that they are expensive to fix, run too hot, won't work well with sensitive speakers, don't sound very good anyway and aren't really class A. (Did I miss anything :D).



Yes you missed that they can set paper cones on fire ....

[Bigman80]

[emoji1787][emoji1787]
Yes you missed that they can set paper cones on fire ....

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[karma67]

Yes you missed that they can set paper cones on fire ....

:lol:here we go again!

[Bigman80]

It's temporarily in, on, my speakers aren't on fire, the ceiling is in tact and it's sounding like it works.

So far so good. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/6ebfd1ee0b2908dd4815069acd8b3b2d.jpg

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[Clive197]

If the OP wants to buy a Krell amp, than hell yes but exactly why? It won’t be for pure SQ as it can be beaten by a modern muscle amp like a Bryston 4B3 (I know I’m biased). If someone want to own the muscle amp that (probably) started it all then look lovingly at this iconic bit of kit on his rack, then I say go for it.

[karma67]

its on the floor!

[Bigman80]

If the OP wants to buy a Krell amp, than hell yes but exactly why? It won’t be for pure SQ as it can be beaten by a modern muscle amp like a Bryston 4B3 (I know I’m biased). If someone want to own the muscle amp that (probably) started it all then look lovingly at this iconic bit of kit on his rack, then I say go for it.Hi Clive,

Ok, I bought it because I wanted to, no other reason. I haven't heard this model before, I haven't had a "muscle amp" previously and this one was in the budget.

SQ, not instantly seeing it's not up to standard to be honest. It hasn't got a great pair of cables attached and yet its very good. Better to come.

First few tracks are quite encouraging. Soundstage is F'ing huge!!!

Effortless, sweet and I'd suggest impossible to tell it's a SS design.


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[Bigman80]

I've got nowhere else. It is raised to allocate to flow but not by much.
its on the floor!

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[Macca]

What's wrong with the floor? Good a place as any for a big SS amp.

[karma67]

i didnt say there was anything wrong with the floor did i? clive said look to the rack,i just pointed out it was on the floor.....see its not funny when i have to explain it :)

[Macca]

Sorry.

You can't fit the bastard things on racks anyway. Mines' half the size of that one and it won't go in any which way.

[hifi_dave]

:eek: :eek: :eek: Every week??? :eek:

Yes. Average one/week but that was in the good ol' 80s, when everyone wanted a ball breakin' Hi-Fi system. The amount of high-end kit we sold back then is off the scale. Yuppies with £50 notes coming out of every pocket.

[Bigman80]

[emoji1]
i didnt say there was anything wrong with the floor did i? clive said look to the rack,i just pointed out it was on the floor.....see its not funny when i have to explain it :)

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[Bigman80]

Sorry.

You can't fit the bastard things on racks anyway. Mines' half the size of that one and it won't go in any which way.This is one big beast.

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[hifi_dave]

That must have been before the internet was around, so no-one knew that they are expensive to fix, run too hot, won't work well with sensitive speakers, don't sound very good anyway and aren't really class A. (Did I miss anything :D).

Nope. You seem to have it covered.

[Lawrence001]

If the OP wants to buy a Krell amp, than hell yes but exactly why? It won’t be for pure SQ as it can be beaten by a modern muscle amp like a Bryston 4B3 (I know I’m biased). If someone want to own the muscle amp that (probably) started it all then look lovingly at this iconic bit of kit on his rack, then I say go for it.But are you heavily biased into Class A? [emoji23]

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[Bigman80]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
But are you heavily biased into Class A? [emoji23]

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[Clive197]

Floor, rack, does it really matter. Most shows that I’ve been to put the big heavy amps on the floor. My problem is that the wife wanted a nice thick wool carpet and putting my Bryston on the floor didn’t seem to me to be a good idea.

24163

[alphaGT]

It looks nice! Time to fish out your hard rock Records and jam! Looking forward to your impressions.

Russell

[Macca]

Nope. You seem to have it covered.

You might want to dig your multimeter out and check your sarcasm detector, I don't think it's working ;)

[hifi_dave]

Maybe you should dig out your's..

[Macca]

Maybe you should dig out your's..

Nothing works right now it's all made in China.

[hifi_dave]

Difficult finding anything which isn't made in China.

[karma67]

yep and im going to just chill and pull out a cd from the rack....or is it floor...no im sure its a rack.....clive which is it??:lol:

[Bigman80]

Nothing works right now it's all made in China.[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787] killer

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[Bigman80]

Difficult finding anything which isn't made in China.Krell?

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[Bigman80]

Ok boys and girls, good humour going on here. Love it.

Anyhoo,

Some pics!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/2294998eb26b36f0d35d32b1f97a02fc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/1034f7acfc335345a700fe25b5e35755.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/520b79d99d53d282066e1ccfcfe8a394.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/d64c9304d50269996868ca0e948b0866.jpg

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[walpurgis]

Give Oliver six months to get the SS solid state thing out of his system and I reckon he'll be going all 300B OTL SET and Lowthers on us. :lol:

(just kidding...............well maybe ;))

[Clive197]

It looks nice! Time to fish out your hard rock Records and jam! Looking forward to your impressions.

Russell

Currently listening to Led Zep 5. Will that do?

Clive

[walpurgis]

Difficult finding anything which isn't made in China.

Even Quad and Creek are made in China now.

[Firebottle]

'Give Oliver six months to get the SS solid state thing out of his system and I reckon he's be going all 300B OTL SET and Lowthers on us. '

:rfl: I doubt it.

Like the dual use of the capacitor bus bars as rectifier heatsinks.
Some seriously thick cables in there. Is it fan cooled on the main heatsinks?

[struth]

looks clean inside.. nice... but what were krell thinking with the badge....the screws dont line up :sofa:

[Clive197]

Ok boys and girls, good humour going on here. Love it.

Anyhoo,

Some pics!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/2294998eb26b36f0d35d32b1f97a02fc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/1034f7acfc335345a700fe25b5e35755.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/520b79d99d53d282066e1ccfcfe8a394.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/d64c9304d50269996868ca0e948b0866.jpg

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“Bootiful” can see why you got it. Enjoy:stalks:

[Primalsea]

Even Quad and Creek are made in China now.

Many of the brands are.

I understand that it's called Rowthers these days...

[Bigman80]

“Bootiful” can see why you got it. Enjoy������As with all things here, they don't hang around too long. Having a look at the build quality up close is a real eye opener. Seriously impressive and the thought that's gone in to the layout equally so.

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[Yomanze]

looks clean inside.. nice... but what were krell thinking with the badge....the screws dont line up :sofa:

Where would be the “Industrial Cool” in that? ;)

[karma67]

a monster amp.looks great mate,well done!

[STD305M]

Hi Oliver
That thing looks awesome

WOW !!!!!

[Bigman80]

Cleaned and reassemble. Makeshift feet fitted. Cleaned the fans and hoovered the innards.

Sounds BIG.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/0ce3d905e68e1e408f3bd993879d90ed.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/56522b65b2787f79be50998ebd46f698.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/cb051c87319bd0d8aafcd53552ce4d4c.jpg

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[STD305M]

Cleaned and reassemble. Makeshift feet fitted. Cleaned the fans and hoovered the innards.

Sounds BIG.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/0ce3d905e68e1e408f3bd993879d90ed.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/56522b65b2787f79be50998ebd46f698.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/cb051c87319bd0d8aafcd53552ce4d4c.jpg

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Might have something to do with the fact it is
It's huge

[Bigman80]

Might have something to do with the fact it is
It's hugeLol, I know but it sounds it. Madness. Heard the same from Maccas the other day.

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[sq225917]

Get it a good inch off the floor, those fans need space to breath.

Huge. that's only a tiddler.

[Macca]

Looks a lot tidier now.

If you change speakers in the future the one thing for certain is you'll never have to worry about your amp being able to drive them properly. :)

[walpurgis]

Let us know how the little Monarchy bears up in comparison mate.

[Bigman80]

Like is said, HUGE [emoji23][emoji23]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/ff06799db02b0cfab6c86c93e08eb8b8.jpg

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[Bigman80]

Looks a lot tidier now.

If you change speakers in the future the one thing for certain is you'll never have to worry about your amp being able to drive them properly. :)Cleaned up nice. Needs some permanent feet,

Yes, it's certainly capable. This was driving some monster JBLs earlier today. Effortless.


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[Bigman80]

Get it a good inch off the floor, those fans need space to breath.

Huge. that's only a tiddler.Will do, I have a plan.

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[smangus]

Nice one Oliver hope you enjoy it.

looking forwards to reading your next ad , something like

"Wanted - new back must be in mint condition with 1 careful owner from a smoke and Krell free home ..." lol

:D

[Macca]

Cleaned up nice. Needs some permanent feet,

Yes, it's certainly capable. This was driving some monster JBLs earlier today. Effortless.


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What JBLs did he have?

[Stryder5]

Will do, I have a plan.

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I could make you a nice custom stand from 1" square tube.:)

Gary

[Bigman80]

What JBLs did he have?I don't know. I'll try and find out.

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[Bigman80]

What JBLs did he have?JBL K2 S9800



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/876614cd47d322985fabd2c58a7b86be.jpg

[Macca]

Oh the jammy bastard! Not heard them but always wanted them. Frank 'Cooky' has got a very similar design to them. Make most other speakers sound like toys.

[Bigman80]

Oh the jammy bastard! Not heard them but always wanted them. Frank 'Cooky' has got a very similar design to them. Make most other speakers sound like toys.They were impressive. To be fair, his while rig was impressive. Conrad Johnson amplifier and some very Japanese valve looking bits. Pre amp, phonostage etc all looked very Hi-end. Sounded it too.

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[Macca]

Have you got a manual for it?

[Bigman80]

Have you got a manual for it?

the Krell? no.

[Macca]

Good. After reading the one that came with mine I was scared to switch it on. Familiarity breeds contempt of course. I've said before, I think, that it's basically just 4 pages of them saying 'Don't cock about with this thing.'

[Bigman80]

[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787] fair enough.

In general. Switch on last, switch off last should cover it!!!
Good. After reading the one that came with mine I was scared to switch it on. Familiarity breeds contempt of course. I've said before, I think, that it's basically just 4 pages of them saying 'Don't cock about with this thing.'

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[JohnJo]

Like is said, HUGE [emoji23][emoji23]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/ff06799db02b0cfab6c86c93e08eb8b8.jpg

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Wow, that puts it in context. What does that not weigh? That has to be a two man lift surely Oliver?

[Ian7633]

I remember the Krell, it was that film, Forbidden Planet with Walter Pigeon and a very young Leslie Nielson. Loosely based around Shakespear's The Tempest. :D

[Bigman80]

Wow, that puts it in context. What does that not weigh? That has to be a two man lift surely Oliver?It's about 40kg I think.

I throw it around easy enough but yea, a second person wouldn't go amiss lol.

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[alphaGT]

One thing I learned the hard way, always lower the volume when changing sources, etc. The Krell instructions told me to, but it didn’t register until one day not long ago I was jamming the radio fairly loud and decided to play a CD. I had walked half way across the room when the first note came through and I literally DOVE across the room to turn it down! Scared the crap out of me! Loud isn’t the word for it, I imagined speaker parts flying across the room. But the big Legacys took it, I think it moved the back wall out another few inches?

These amps flow some real current, and could cause real damage if care isn’t exercised. It’s like driving a car with 450BhP. Fun with an element of danger!

Russell

[walpurgis]

HaHa. I did something similar with my big Coral horns. Nearly blew me out of my socks. Serves me right for connecting up a 220 watt amp to 102db sensitivity speakers! :eek:

[Macca]

One thing I learned the hard way, always lower the volume when changing sources, etc. The Krell instructions told me to, but it didn’t register until one day not long ago I was jamming the radio fairly loud and decided to play a CD. I had walked half way across the room when the first note came through and I literally DOVE across the room to turn it down! Scared the crap out of me! Loud isn’t the word for it, I imagined speaker parts flying across the room. But the big Legacys took it, I think it moved the back wall out another few inches?

These amps flow some real current, and could cause real damage if care isn’t exercised. It’s like driving a car with 450BhP. Fun with an element of danger!

Russell

Yes and be careful cuing a record as well. Bounce it down and the thump can blow your drivers.

[RobbieGong]

One thing I learned the hard way, always lower the volume when changing sources, etc. The Krell instructions told me to, but it didn’t register until one day not long ago I was jamming the radio fairly loud and decided to play a CD. I had walked half way across the room when the first note came through and I literally DOVE across the room to turn it down! Scared the crap out of me! Loud isn’t the word for it, I imagined speaker parts flying across the room. But the big Legacys took it, I think it moved the back wall out another few inches?

These amps flow some real current, and could cause real damage if care isn’t exercised. It’s like driving a car with 450BhP. Fun with an element of danger!

Russell

:lol: quality !

[Bigman80]

Will do, as soon as I have SPOTFIRE cable long enough to get going.
Let us know how the little Monarchy bears up in comparison mate.

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[struth]

[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787] fair enough.

In general. Switch on last, switch off last should cover it!!!

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Switch on last. Switch off first.