Whats the most one would shelve out on a cartridge

[Vrajbasi]

I reluctantly spend serious money on cartridges every time I do cringe at the thought of spending huge sums of money on something so delicate that could easily break and wears out, what the most one has spent? has the the investment been worth it? , would one continue to do so and what is ones favourite choice.:)

[Firebottle]

Has to be in the second hand market for me. £475 is the max I have spend at one time.

[Gazjam]

Shelled out about £1300 for my Dynavector when I was building up my Vinyl rig, wouldn't go anywhere near that figure again.

[Barry]

The most I have spent on a cartridge has been ~ £1,000. All of my thirty odd cartidges were bought used (but with low mileage), and with only a couple of exceptions they are now out of production. The typical purchase price has been £200 - £400, but some only cost me £50. The cheapest cartridge only cost me £5 from eBay!

[RobbieGong]

I reluctantly spend serious money on cartridges every time I do cringe at the thought of spending huge sums of money on something so delicate that could easily break and wears out, what the most one has spent? has the the investment been worth it? , would one continue to do so and what is ones favourite choice.:)

I think your post touches on the 'problem' with high end carts - Lots of dough for something that doesnt last and has to be handled very carefully otherwise a bundle of hard earned money goes down the toilet.

Another thing that dictates what the overall experience of your cart will be is the tonearm and (maybe to a lesser extent) the headshell that you match it with.

Tonearm condition is also often overlooked, particularly bearings. I think not enough consideration is given to tonearm maintenance.
You'd be surprised what issues are found on having your old tonearm looked over - I speak from experience.

All the above said/considered and to answer your question. The Ortofon A95 would be upwards of a cool £3.7k min new and I wouldnt dismiss selling a few bits and saving for one, one day :mental: :)

[Barry]

There are many cartridges more expensive than that: the stone-bodied Koetsus; the Ortofon A100 (€10,000), and the Etsuro Urushi to name a few. I think the most I would pay for a new cartridge would be £1,500 for one of the Ana-rebuilt EMTs.

Cartridges are expensive because they are built by hand and employ line-contact profile stylii, fitted to cantilevers made of exotic materials.

Are they worth it? Well that depends on your ears and the depth of your pocket; remembering the cost of replacing the stylus will be about 2/3 of the initial cost, and something that needs to be done every 1,000 hours or so.

[RobbieGong]

There are many cartridges more expensive than that: the stone-bodied Koetsus; the Ortofon A100 (€10,000), and the Etsuro Urushi to name a few. I think the most I would pay for a new cartridge would be £1,500 for one of the Ana-rebuilt EMTs.

Cartridges are expensive because they are built by hand and employ line-contact profile stylii, fitted to cantilevers made of exotic materials.

Are they worth it? Well that depends on your ears and the depth of your pocket; remembering the cost of replacing the stylus will be about 2/3 of the initial cost, and something that needs to be done every 1,000 hours or so.

Indeed! and why some think high end carts is a mugs game.

We must remember that hifi and systems is a luxury. Thats definitely the case when it comes to high end carts that are not cheap and last only so long, a bit like a good holiday, only longer lasting.

[Vrajbasi]

Tonearm condition is also often overlooked, particularly bearings. I think not enough consideration is given to tonearm maintenance.
You'd be surprised what issues are found on having your old tonearm looked over - I speak from experience.

All the above said/considered and to answer your question. The Ortofon A95 would be upwards of a cool £3.7k min new and I wouldnt dismiss selling a few bits and saving for one, one day :mental: :)

Such a Valid point Robbie I own many tonearms and generally after 3 years of use, I send them away for service of course this depends on how much use etc. In some cases a service can be very costly eg an Sme service now starts at £650 every time they come back I get blown away how much better they sound. I prefer if I can to use the original Manufacturer if at all possible obviously servicing my Fidelity Research FR66 would be a different story.

I remember buying two identical Sme arms and trying with the same cartridge etc there was no doubt how different they sounded what to speak of a used arm purchase where the previous owner could have mistreated the arm and never had a service.

The whole hifi thing is a costly hobby and quite a sacrifice for the most of us I drive a 20 year old car hardly go on holiday (if I do its mainly hifi related shows or to meet fellow audiophiles I know). All the sacrifice enables me feed my passion or maybe addiction. I could never tell anyone one of my cartridges cost 10 times the price of my car. Its all about priorities and attitude I love the hobby and when I sit down after a hard day to listen nothing touches my soul in the same way.

I remember purchasing my first Stone Bodied koetsu I was petrified at thought of breaking it or running it down to the ground as it would cost me 3k plus for a manufacturer rebuild ouch, It took me 3 months to get the courage to play it these days I think what the heck they are there to be enjoyed.

[RobbieGong]

Absolutely and why we do it.

There is indeed nothing like it. When it all comes together money pales into insignificance, the feeling is that good.

[Crackles]

Out of interest how does a solid object like a tonearm get serviced? What do they actually do?

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[RobbieGong]

Out of interest how does a solid object like a tonearm get serviced? What do they actually do?

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I'm no expert but play / wear of bearings is one thing addressed.
Also tonearm wire can be tight or hindering movement of the arm.
Mine was re-wired and upgraded with hybrid ceramic bearings. During that work it was discovered that the arm was bent so there you go.

[struth]

£200 and that was once. Far too much

[Haselsh1]

Back when I was into vinyl the most I would fork out for one would be £350-400 either brand new or secondhand.

[RobbieGong]

£200 and that was once. Far too much

:D

[Barry]

Out of interest how does a solid object like a tonearm get serviced? What do they actually do?

Dismantle it, re-lubricate the bearings and re-assemble, checking for and reducing bearing play. There is no need to pay a fortune that the manufacturer will charge (especially SME, who now no longer service the older Series 3000 arms). There are other enthusiast outfits such as Audio Origami and Phonomac who can, and will, do just as good a job.

Though in the case of the SME V, since the service cost is about 20% of the cost of the arm, in this case I would get them to service the V, but not other SME designs.

[Vrajbasi]

I have a Mysonic Platinum and £8500 on loan does sound good but trying my best to resist

[Vrajbasi]

Dismantle it, re-lubricate the bearings and re-assemble, checking for and reducing bearing play. There is no need to pay a fortune that the manufacturer will charge (especially SME, who now no longer service the older Series 3000 arms). There are other enthusiast outfits such as Audio Origami and Phonomac who can, and will, do just as good a job.



Though in the case of the SME V, since the service cost is about 20% of the cost of the arm, in this case I would get them to service the V, but not other SME designs.

The only good thing with sme they will generally sort out cosmetic issues at no extra charge a friend had his 309 serviced with some lettering issues, Sme replaced the arm tube as part of the service and replaced the bearings, came back as new you pay the price but handy they have the parts available at there disposal. A bit like rolex with there watch services. A couple of years back my dealer who works closely with sme arranged for them to rebuild my 3012 arms they came back sounding great not sure that would be possible to do with the current owners.

Sme are great to deal with I have been on a couple of factory tours arranged by my dealer last one was when I took delivery of my 30/12 turntable in 2014 it was great seeing the Arms being built all very impressive. I hope it all continues under the new Management.

Jhonnie does do an excellent job and offer real value for money never used Phonomac.

[walpurgis]

The more exotic and expensive cartridges can be a good buy second hand, as the type of people who buy them often tend to always be looking for something even more exclusive, so don't keep them too long. Hence, they absorb the depreciation and you get a bargain (comparatively).

By the way, my most expensive cartridge cost me approaching a grand and I have two of them.

[RobbieGong]

Yep, Do your homework, communicate with the seller and ask those important questions ie: hours, why selling etc.
You'll have a real sense of whether to pounce or walkaway ;)

[Jac Hawk]

The way i look at it is that once you go past an acceptable performance the cost or improvement literally spirals out of control so the more you spend the smaller the increase in the sound improvement is, that's the case with all hifi as well as many other things, i think what Geoff said about the exclusivity of something definitely comes in to play the more expensive and exotic the product is, for me i think about £600 would be the most i'd spend.

[Vrajbasi]

Yep, Do your homework, communicate with the seller and ask those important questions ie: hours, why selling etc.
You'll have a real sense of whether to pounce or walkaway ;)

It can be very daunting on one occasion I purchased an expensive Clearaudio Goldfinger used while sounded ok as owner very seemed genuine i decided to send to goldring for an inspection and clean up got a report saying badly set up by original owner and heavy traces of wear and some suspension issues.

The hardest is with koetsu cartridges the models have been around so so long and how many have only had only 200 hours use plus expensive to have service by the manufacturer. A bit easier with say a VDH as a bit more cost effective to service if you do get unlucky. I generally prefer to by new the uncertainty can be a bit much plus as I have a few overall they dont get used much.

Too be honest I would rather by a lesser cartridge new after some of my previous experiences but thats just me.

I have used expert stylus etc to retip etc while good not quite the same in my opinion.

[Crackles]

I'm no expert but play / wear of bearings is one thing addressed.
Also tonearm wire can be tight or hindering movement of the arm.
Mine was re-wired and upgraded with hybrid ceramic bearings. During that work it was discovered that the arm was bent so there you go.Thanks, might have to get mine looked at one of these days.

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[Spectral Morn]

I think many High End carts are best looked at as being functional works of art, jewelery of a sort.

Most expensive cart I bought was a VDH Frog Gold, before that a Lyra Clavis, VDH MC10 and Ortofon MC2000mk2.

Others carts I have are as result of swaps and the like.

[sq225917]

Tonearm service, get a uni you plonkers

[steve-z]

Cartridges are probably the piece of the Hifi chain where the law of diminishing returns kicks in the quickest. If the OP is worried about fragility and stylus wear then buy an inexpensive but good sounding robust MM that doesn't cost a lot to replace when it wears out or gets damaged, the AT95E springs to mind as fitting the bill, sounding much better than a cartridge so cheap would be expected to sound. Personally I'd never spend more than £200 on a cartridge, at that price I have an ATF7 moving coil which sounds as good as, if not better than any cartridge I've owned in the last 40 years (and I've had quite a few)


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[Vrajbasi]

The problem is majority of Moving Coil cartridges dont sound any good just thin and bright may be thats what people want (not me) you can spend loads and get little. I have spent a fortune learning the hard way, moving magnets in the more affordable sector are a better bet generally. Sadly the likes of the Audio Technica at170ml shure ultra 500 and the good old technics are thing of the past. At least we still have some nice spu cartridges available to us. There are still some great human sounding moving coils around but cost a arm and a leg. I dont find spending but something for it.

[Jac Hawk]

The problem is majority of Moving Coil cartridges dont sound any good just thin and bright

I think the problem (if you can call it that) with MC carts is you need to consider much more than just getting it and setting it up, a decent phono stage or SUT that suits the cart is just as important and the combination will either have you grinning from ear to ear or have you ready to throw yourself off a bridge, that fact is something not as pronounced with MM carts as all amps with phono input will be MM and most of them will give an acceptable account of themselves.

[Natara]

I remember swallowing hard when I paid £100 for a brand new Denon 110 it seemed like a lot at the time since then all of my cartridges have been bought and sold on the used market and I've only slipped up once I paid £125 for an AT OC9 Mk1 that was all but worn out but I still got a couple of months out of it and may one day look into retipping it.
The most that I have ever spent was £450 for a Dynavector £20x2L that really was like new but that is about my limit.

[Mike Reed]

I have a Mysonic Platinum and £8500 on loan does sound good but trying my best to resist

That's a new one on me, and at that level, too(stone bodied K level+). I'd be interested in what you're listening to it on, as your collection of exotica is a bit left field, to say the least ! A global pick 'n' mix relative to my homespun stuff.:)

[cuddles]

I wonder if the best way to go is to concentrate the funds on the phono stage in order to get the best out of whatever cartridge you are using. I'm edging towards this conclusion after comparing MMs and MCs up to around £400. I really think that maxing out the performance with a MM cartridge is the future for me.

At the moment I'm using a used Audio Technica PTG/11. I see they retail new at around £479 and as much as I like it I don't think I'd shell out that much for a new one.

[Mikeandvan]

I spent £400 on a cart once, it broke within 2 days due to my hayfever making me drowsy, it also didn't sound that good. So now I limit it to around the £200 mark, I like to play records drunk sometimes, and I ain't fussing around with a finger lift.

[losepete]

We (Mrs and me) purchased a "slightly used" Kiseki Blue Gold Spot MC for £185 in 1988. It sounded really good when demo'd.

We asked Grahams Audio (Islington, close to where we lived at that time) to fit the cartridge to our LP12/Ittok. After inspecting the cartridge Grahams declined to fit it stating that it was too badly worn. Looking through their magnifying glass we had to agree with them as there was a very obvious "shoulder" indicating a lot of wear to the stylus. The downside of 2nd user cartridges...

We ended up using the cartridge as a "trade in" for a new Kiseki Blue Gold Spot - the "trade in" value exceeded the used cartridge purchase price so we had not been completely stuffed. However, it was an extra £575 on top of what we had intended to spend.

We used the Kiseki for about 2 years and then our little boy decided he was going to try and play a record while nobody was watching. That resulted in a broken cantilever and, with funds being short at the time, we had to settle for a less expensive replacement which was not as capable - an ATOC5 if I recall correctly. Yes, the little boy survived the experience.

The Kiseki got put in a box in the cupboard and forgotten about until a couple of years ago.

Once rediscovered we decided to see if it could be "retipped".

One of the joys of the internet is that it can be much easier to find a service you need than back in the days of "Yellow Pages" and telephone calls.

Having found NorthWestAnalogue - http://www.northwestanalogue.com/cartridge-repairs.html - we dropped the cartridge in for repair. About 2 weeks later we had a working Kiseki Blue Gold Spot cartridge which sounds really good. That cost £225.

So, this cartridge over a period of time has cost a Total of £185 + £575 + £225 = £985.

A new Kiseki Blue Gold Spot - there were a few built and sold a couple of years ago - is around £1400.

Overall we have not done too badly out of purchasing a 2nd user cartridge - especially as it is still in use and sounding very good :-)

[Vrajbasi]

That's a new one on me, and at that level, too(stone bodied K level+). I'd be interested in what you're listening to it on, as your collection of exotica is a bit left field, to say the least ! A global pick 'n' mix relative to my homespun stuff.:)

The My sonic Platinum is a very nice cartridge I have used it on my Sme 30/12 thales combo so its very interesting its very open and delicate with a a solid bass, compared to the 12k diamond cantilever Koetsu its just very different the Koetsu stone bodied has a sence of power and scale and drama which is superb the voices are mesmerising the bass is less tuneful. The koetsu has a superb midrange but does not do micro detail in the same way but is a bit more exciting. The Mysonic is a bit more organised, sounding like a polished transfiguration. I also have the etsuro which is superb thats like a bit in the middle sort of thing. I want to try the Mysonic on my other turntables before it goes back I also have a Graham Phantom Elite tonearm here on loan but have not had the opportunity to set it up, busy bank holiday.

[Vrajbasi]

Just tried the Neutral sounding Mysonic on the Microseiki kondo V-12 combo better suited to be honest works better with the powerful sounding Micro better bass extension and the midrange more fleshed out the, the Tiger Eye sounds better on the Sme/Thales combo. I dont think I can afford to buy the Mysonic yet but will consider it strongly.

[paulf-2007]

The problem is majority of Moving Coil cartridges dont sound any good just thin and bright may be thats what people want (not me) you can spend loads and get little. I have spent a fortune learning the hard way, moving magnets in the more affordable sector are a better bet generally. Sadly the likes of the Audio Technica at170ml shure ultra 500 and the good old technics are thing of the past. At least we still have some nice spu cartridges available to us. There are still some great human sounding moving coils around but cost a arm and a leg. I dont find spending but something for it.
The Shure ultra 500 is my weapon of choice, has a jico sas stylus and cost me £500 used obviously. That's close to my limit money wise. Had a Benz wood unused as someone's spare £600 and sold on for about the same. Decca mk 4 £550 and sold on with no loss. Liked them all but the Shure just does it for me.

[Vrajbasi]

The Shure ultra 500 is my weapon of choice, has a jico sas stylus and cost me £500 used obviously. That's close to my limit money wise. Had a Benz wood unused as someone's spare £600 and sold on for about the same. Decca mk 4 £550 and sold on with no loss. Liked them all but the Shure just does it for me.

I owned a Shure Ultra 500 back in the late 80s on a Pink Triangle Anniversary Sme V combo loved it, I then discovered the fabulous Audio Technica 170ML that was available from the united states for $200 that blew the 500 away but still loved the 500. Back in those days you could get really nice cartridges for no so much money well sort of the Ultra 500 was £500 back then.

[Barry]

The problem is majority of Moving Coil cartridges dont sound any good just thin and bright may be thats what people want (not me) you can spend loads and get little. I have spent a fortune learning the hard way, moving magnets in the more affordable sector are a better bet generally. Sadly the likes of the Audio Technica at170ml shure ultra 500 and the good old technics are thing of the past. At least we still have some nice spu cartridges available to us. There are still some great human sounding moving coils around but cost a arm and a leg. I dont find spending but something for it.

I don't know what MC cartridges you have listened to, but to say that the majority of them "don't sound any good, just thin and bright", is a ridiculous overstatement IMO. I've heard (and still own) early Ortofon cartridges: SPUG, SPUGE, SPUGTE, S-15TE, SL15E, SL15E Mk.II and none of them sound thin and bright. Neither do more modern Ortofons such as the MC200, or MC25FL. The only Ortofon I have sold on has been the MC20.

None on my EMTs (regardless of sytlus profile) display the properties you complain of, nor do my Denon 103s.

[Vrajbasi]

I don't know what MC cartridges you have listened to, but to say that the majority of them "don't sound any good, just thin and bright", is a ridiculous overstatement IMO. I've heard (and still own) early Ortofon cartridges: SPUG, SPUGE, SPUGTE, S-15TE, SL15E, SL15E Mk.II and none of them sound thin and bright. Neither do more modern Ortofons such as the MC200, or MC25FL. The only Ortofon I have sold on has been the MC20.

None on my EMTs (regardless of sytlus profile) display the properties you complain of, nor do my Denon 103s.

I have heard and owned hundreds of moving coils I have found that for me as you go upmarket a lot of them emphasise treble in a way that many moving magnets dont of course the spu,s and some of the older mc cartridges maintain so much majic. I agree that majority of the ones you list dont but there are so many designs out there that do to me I never liked the bleached out sounds that the lyras produced I have a couple of ortofon anna cartridges that were far from enjoyable I PERSONALLY think a £500 nagoka would be more natural sounding.

[Mike Reed]

[QUOTE=Vrajbasi.......The Mysonic is a bit more organised, sounding like a polished transfiguration. [/QUOTE] Can't imagine what a polished Transfig. would sound like, but my Proteus is the most transparent cart. I've encompassed to date; slightly better on 12" PU7 that 12" Ace Anna (same deck). The Vermillion is also better on the gimballed arm although My Benz Ebony liked the unipivot. There's little rule of thumb in this business providing the basic mass etc. is acceptable, and even then the theory fails. I put an old Ortofon VMS 20E mark 2 I'd had for donkey's years on my 14.5 ish gramme Ace Anna at 1 g VTF. Shouldn't work but sounds superb. Next stop Dansette !:lol:

[Barry]

"Hundreds of moving coil cartridges"? How many hundred? I doubt if a hundred MC cartridges have ever been designed. :scratch:

[montesquieu]

I have heard and owned hundreds of moving coils I have found that for me as you go upmarket a lot of them emphasise treble in a way that many moving magnets dont of course the spu,s and some of the older mc cartridges maintain so much majic. I agree that majority of the ones you list dont but there are so many designs out there that do to me I never liked the bleached out sounds that the lyras produced I have a couple of ortofon anna cartridges that were far from enjoyable I PERSONALLY think a £500 nagoka would be more natural sounding.

Happy to swap you any MM of your choice for your Shindo SPU, since MCs are so awful. You'll be glad to be rid of it.

Honestly, you pick out some of the thinnest, most 'hifi' MCs - such as some of the Lyras - and damn the whole lot .. have a listen to a Miyajima Madake (come and hear mine if you like) or Ikeda 9TT, or a stone-bodied Koetsu .. these show none of the highly strung, rising treble traits you mention.

All need a decent arm to shine though. But you know that ...

[Jac Hawk]

"Hundreds of moving coil cartridges"? How many hundred? I doubt if a hundred MC cartridges have ever been designed. :scratch:

Was thinking the same Barry:rfl::rfl:

[Barry]

The Ikeda 9TT - is that your latest cartridge Tom?

[montesquieu]

The Ikeda 9TT - is that your latest cartridge Tom?

Yes I owned one before, but it had a coil imbalance so it went back to where it came from,but I liked what I heard so had been waiting for one coming up.. it doesn't have the directness and drama of the no cantilever Ikedas but it does have a nice neutral quality that's a shade less warm and a shade more detailed than the Miyajimas, but still very intimate and listenable. Nice balance. Arrived on Saturday still planning a write-up.

[Barry]

Shall look forward to reading that Tom, :)

[Vrajbasi]

"Hundreds of moving coil cartridges"? How many hundred? I doubt if a hundred MC cartridges have ever been designed. :scratch:

Barry I have owned cartridges for over 40 years I have owned the entire VDH line up pretty much all the early lyras many many spus, in the 90,s I was friendly with ricardo of Absolute sounds and was constantly swapping koetsus. Then i went through a phase of owning ortofons had many spu,s then the kiseki phase owned a Lapis lazuli on a Goldmund Reference, then went through many benzes the list goes on. Not to mention all the IO versions inc the mighty LTD on a Voyd reference with cylene tonearm. I had an brief encounter with clear audio from the mid 80's when Automation sciences were the importer and Branko of Audiofreaks was an young assistant,owning all the models in the 90,s stopped at an early goldfinger. I have owned a Madake with its matching SUT which is a wonderful example of an MC cartridge on the right arm it was fantastic worked great on the FR66 which I much prefer than the Ikeda 407IT I previously owned.

I personally love the MC cartridges I own the stone bodied Koetsu is sweet so is the etsuro and too is the shindo spu love the Top wing too. My point is that you generally have to spend alot of money to beat a good MM thats all. I just find the general trend on Lyras and clearaudios and even suprisingly some koetsu models like the urushi a bit sterile for my personal taste. If you wish to come and hear the cartridges I currently own please send me a message. I am certainly not damming all MC cartridges as I only own MC cartridges but at what an expense and when I think of the money I wasted learning the hard way it makes me cringe.

[Barry]

Well your Shindo-modified SPU sounds interesting, but I would still question your claim that one needs to spend considerably a lot more on a current MC to beat a current MM.

I'm not disputing your claim that it can be easier to achieve good SQ using a modern fixed-coil cartridge, for the simple reason that MCs need additional voltage step up devices; which can be a whole topic of discussion (and opinion) in its own right, and there have always been quality fixed-coil designs: ADC; B&O; AKG, as well as more modern designs of which I'm unfamiliar (for example Nagaoka) as well as the post-Shure V15 designs and some Technics models. But you don't (again IMO) have to spend an enormous amount on an MC design to rival and exceed a modern fixed-coil cartridge.

I would tend to agree with you regarding Lyra cartridges (with the possible exception of the Transfiguration 'Orpheus') and Koetsus, the latter of which tend, IMO, to be 'lush' and flattering, which some find beguiling and 'musical', but they are not to my taste. Especially the post-Sugano offerings. But again it's all a matter of taste: your ears, your choice.

[Vrajbasi]

I would tend to agree with you regarding Lyra cartridges (with the possible exception of the Transfiguration 'Orpheus') and Koetsus, the latter of which tend, IMO, to be 'lush' and flattering, which some find beguiling and 'musical', but they are not to my taste. Especially the post-Sugano offerings. But again it's all a matter of taste: your ears, your choice.

The current Koetsu cartridges are generally not as lush as they were I actually liked some of the early models such as the Sugano 80th onyx bodied anniversary cartridge I had that mounted on the Goldmund for a while. The current stone bodied Koetsu cartridges are very different some of which can be quite forward sounding my tiger eye is certainly anything but lush.

[Barry]

Well there you go - different ears, different opinions. :)

[Vrajbasi]

Well there you go - different ears, different opinions. :)

:lol:Very true if all like the same thing life would be so boring

[Mike Reed]

The current Koetsu cartridges are generally not as lush as they were.

I agree. The Sugano son offerings (post 2004 ish) brought his father's signature sound into the modern age. Still very Koetsu, but more dynamic. I do wonder just what the stone bodied ones (esp. the Coralstone) bring to the party over the Urushi range. However, price and arm compatibility will probably mean that I'll never know, barring a high premium bond win !

[Vrajbasi]

I agree. The Sugano son offerings (post 2004 ish) brought his father's signature sound into the modern age. Still very Koetsu, but more dynamic. I do wonder just what the stone bodied ones (esp. the Coralstone) bring to the party over the Urushi range. However, price and arm compatibility will probably mean that I'll never know, barring a high premium bond win !

The coral stone is not as warm as the early koetsu,s but does have a very solid bas and lovely midrange flow but a little boring, the Jade is warmer sounding but very boring, the tiger eye tends to be my fav at the moment it has a good balance of warmth and detail, much more open and fleshed out than say a Madake

The black Oynx is stunning it has a shimmering midrange we compared it to other stone bodied varients but very rare I have a friend in Austria who has one he has one on a Airforce one with SAT arm and also has rare red stone bodied one on a Micro seiki 8000 mk2 like mine with a axiom tonearm I prefer the sound of his Micro with the red onyx compared to black one and the black one on the Airforce.

Generally the stone bodied cartridges are faster sounding with greater bass depth and far more transparent voices are fuller sounding. The Diamond cantilevered cartridges are magical a different class the best I have heard is a Blue Tiger eye with diamond cantilever my dealer has one on his own turntable he kindly allowed me to hear it at home. Each stone bodied cartridge seems to possess its own unique trait,the wonderful world of audio madness.I use a boron tiger eye for now and sometimes a blue onyx boron I cant justify the diamond cantilever at 4.5k premium maybe one day.

[Yomanze]

£350 for a body, and readily available stylii at £175 a pop. Am too clumsy, and vinyl a distinct secondary source, to justify expensive MCs. Would rather just replace a stylus. Having said this I haven’t had any accidents... yet.

[paulf-2007]

I owned a Shure Ultra 500 back in the late 80s on a Pink Triangle Anniversary Sme V combo loved it, I then discovered the fabulous Audio Technica 170ML that was available from the united states for $200 that blew the 500 away but still loved the 500. Back in those days you could get really nice cartridges for no so much money well sort of the Ultra 500 was £500 back then.
The ultra 500 I have has a Martin Bastin body, someone did wonder if the extra weight of the body was compatible with the stylus compliance, maybe the damper helps with that, all I can say is it sounds bloody wonderful.

[Vrajbasi]

The ultra 500 I have has a Martin Bastin body, someone did wonder if the extra weight of the body was compatible with the stylus compliance, maybe the damper helps with that, all I can say is it sounds bloody wonderful.

I had a V-15MR Ltd Edition which had a bastion body I purchased that from a shop in Kentish Town called Vinyl Tube audio in 1989, had so many goodies in the shop I purchased a notts analogue mentor reference in white nice turntable remember it fondly.

[alphaGT]

I’ve always subscribed to the theory of equal portions in an analog rig. One should look to spend the same amount on the ‘table, tonearm, cart, and preamp. If you’ve got a £1,000 table, a £1,000 arm would be a good match, so a cartridge from £500 to £1,000 would be a good match, and that will require a preamp of some quality.

Sure these rules are flexible, lots of people have super expensive arms on good inexpensive ‘tables, or less expensive cartridges on an expensive ‘table, and probably skimping on the preamp is the most common imbalance. It’s all up to the creator, what you want from your rig, and what you like! Even how good your hearing is.

But I feel it may be a waste to put a £2500 cart on a £500 record player with factory arm. Or to take an entry level record player and run it through a £2500 preamp, trying to match the quality of each part equally will give you the best performance from each piece. So, how much should you spend on a cartridge? Well, how much did you spend on the ‘Table? How much for the arm? That figure is a good place to start shopping for a cartridge. Maybe you’ll be happy with much less? Or get away with much more? The arm on my VPI costs about a $1000, but I’m sure it will do justice to a cart costing twice that much. But I’ve got a $500 cart on it and it sounds great! So I’ve been shopping in the $1000 range, I’m not sure what improvements I’ll see for my extra money? But I’m sure my ‘table and Arm are up to the task.

Russell

[walpurgis]

You can find exceptions. A grand's worth of ZYX MC cartridge will work happily in a standard Goldring Lenco GL75 arm. A £70 Denon amp will drive expensive classic Tannoys and make very acceptable sounds. I'm sure there are other examples. I'm tempted to bung my ZYX R100 02H in my PL-12D to see what happens.

[Barry]

I’ve always subscribed to the theory of equal portions in an analog rig. One should look to spend the same amount on the ‘table, tonearm, cart, and preamp. If you’ve got a £1,000 table, a £1,000 arm would be a good match, so a cartridge from £500 to £1,000 would be a good match, and that will require a preamp of some quality.

Sure these rules are flexible, lots of people have super expensive arms on good inexpensive ‘tables, or less expensive cartridges on an expensive ‘table, and probably skimping on the preamp is the most common imbalance. It’s all up to the creator, what you want from your rig, and what you like! Even how good your hearing is.

But I feel it may be a waste to put a £2500 cart on a £500 record player with factory arm. Or to take an entry level record player and run it through a £2500 preamp, trying to match the quality of each part equally will give you the best performance from each piece. So, how much should you spend on a cartridge? Well, how much did you spend on the ‘Table? How much for the arm? That figure is a good place to start shopping for a cartridge. Maybe you’ll be happy with much less? Or get away with much more? The arm on my VPI costs about a $1000, but I’m sure it will do justice to a cart costing twice that much. But I’ve got a $500 cart on it and it sounds great! So I’ve been shopping in the $1000 range, I’m not sure what improvements I’ll see for my extra money? But I’m sure my ‘table and Arm are up to the task.

Russell

Whilst I can understand the mantra "source first", and hence that is where proportionally the most should be spent, I often think if you have a modest amp and speakers how will you hear how good the 'front end' sounds? So in that respect, I'm in agreement with you in that one should spend more or less the same amount on each part of the replay chain (though I wouldn't dream of spending a large amount on cables).

A further difficulty comes with mixing vintage and new components. If the vintage components were bought new, their current value may be a lot more than what was paid. So for example I have used a £400 cartridge in a £25 arm on a £38 turntable (EMT XSD-15, SME 3009 and Thorens TD124/II respectively) and conversely I have used a £50 cartridge in a £600 arm (ADC 25 in a Breuer Dynamic 5A arm). Or a £50 cartridge in a £2,500 arm/turntable (Denon 103 on an EMT930/929 combination).

And now I'm using a £1,000 cartridge on a £1,500 arm on a £38 turntable.

[paulf-2007]

I had a V-15MR Ltd Edition which had a bastion body I purchased that from a shop in Kentish Town called Vinyl Tube audio in 1989, had so many goodies in the shop I purchased a notts analogue mentor reference in white nice turntable remember it fondly.
I remember vinyl tube, I lived not far from there in Highgate Road, never ventured in as we had young children then and hifi wasn't on my radar.

[paulf-2007]

You can find exceptions. A grand's worth of ZYX MC cartridge will work happily in a standard Goldring Lenco GL75 arm. A £70 Denon amp will drive expensive classic Tannoys and make very acceptable sounds. I'm sure there are other examples. I'm tempted to bung my ZYX R100 02H in my PL-12D to see what happens.
Sony STR 6055 receiver driving Zu Omen, using the on board phono stage is as good as any of the valve stages I've used with the DP80, stax arm and all three of my favourite carts.

[Patrick Dixon]

And now I'm using a £1,000 cartridge on a £1,500 arm on a £38 turntable.
Yeah but, it's not really a 38 quid turntable. A TD124/2 is a grand of anyone's money these days, and probably cheap at that.

[Vrajbasi]

Yeah but, it's not really a 38 quid turntable. A TD124/2 is a grand of anyone's money these days, and probably cheap at that.

My Nephew has a £2k cartridge on a deck he got for nothing, I gave him a Bastin 301 with psu and a sme IV I had knocking around:lol:

[speedracer]

I wouldn't put a ceiling price on what I might pay for a cartridge, it depends on the rest of my system & what finances I have at the time I consider a new purchase. One of my turntables is a modified Lenco GL75 (which I have to move on but that is another story), & it was for purely old mono jazz records with a very modest AT-MONO 3/LP, & it made beautiful music. I then had an opportunity to upgrade to a almost brand new Lyra Helikon mono at a very good price, & it lifted the performance of the Lenco into another league, it really did. The new price of the cart was over 4 times what I paid for the Lenco, although I didn't pay that for it, yet the deck was capable enough to show clearly why the Lyra cost what it did.
I have bought a few lightly used cartridges in the £400/600 range & have done very well with them, other than being stung on a Benz Wood SL that had problems; the most I have paid for a new cart was around £1,000 for a Ortofon Rohmann, but if something special came along & I could afford it at the time I would buy it.

[walpurgis]

Perhaps the original question should have been 'what is the minimum outlay for a truly involving sound?'.

I can't think of an MM or high output MC I'd want to use full time. The DL-103 is great at the price, but doesn't really 'get there' for me.

At around £400, the Goldring Eroica LX is an MC I could live with, it's properly musical and vibrant. Great fun! Spending more buys more refinement and possibly greater transparency, but does it bring greater actual enjoyment?

I have more expensive MC's, but the Eroica puts a smile on my face each time I hear it.

[karma67]

Perhaps the original question should have been 'what is the minimum outlay for a truly involving sound?'.

I can't think of an MM or high output MC I'd want to use full time. The DL-103 is great at the price, but doesn't really 'get there' for me.

At around £400, the Goldring Eroica LX is an MC I could live with, it's properly musical and vibrant. Great fun! Spending more buys more refinement and possibly greater transparency, but does it bring greater actual enjoyment?

I have more expensive MC's, but the Eroica puts a smile on my face each time I hear it.

just to confuse matters further,i tried a eroica and thought it was nothing special,the denon 103sa on the other hand is so musical in comparison.:ner:

[walpurgis]

just to confuse matters further,i tried a eroica and thought it was nothing special,the denon 103sa on the other hand is so musical in comparison.:ner:

Ah, well that's what comes from not having a decent SUT mate! :facepull:

[struth]

Perhaps the original question should have been 'what is the minimum outlay for a truly involving sound?'.

I can't think of an MM or high output MC I'd want to use full time. The DL-103 is great at the price, but doesn't really 'get there' for me.

At around £400, the Goldring Eroica LX is an MC I could live with, it's properly musical and vibrant. Great fun! Spending more buys more refinement and possibly greater transparency, but does it bring greater actual enjoyment?

I have more expensive MC's, but the Eroica puts a smile on my face each time I hear it.

you might change mind with the one im using... it does sound very nice for a MI

[alphaGT]

Whilst I can understand the mantra "source first", and hence that is where proportionally the most should be spent, I often think if you have a modest amp and speakers how will you hear how good the 'front end' sounds? So in that respect, I'm in agreement with you in that one should spend more or less the same amount on each part of the replay chain (though I wouldn't dream of spending a large amount on cables).

A further difficulty comes with mixing vintage and new components. If the vintage components were bought new, their current value may be a lot more than what was paid. So for example I have used a £400 cartridge in a £25 arm on a £38 turntable (EMT XSD-15, SME 3009 and Thorens TD124/II respectively) and conversely I have used a £50 cartridge in a £600 arm (ADC 25 in a Breuer Dynamic 5A arm). Or a £50 cartridge in a £2,500 arm/turntable (Denon 103 on an EMT930/929 combination).

And now I'm using a £1,000 cartridge on a £1,500 arm on a £38 turntable.

I suppose actual price, and actual value may not be the same thing. Sounds like you’ve got the right idea. I saw a cartridge the other day for $12,000! I wonder what kind of record player you’d need to get the most out of it?

Russell

[paulf-2007]

I suppose actual price, and actual value may not be the same thing. Sounds like you’ve got the right idea. I saw a cartridge the other day for $12,000! I wonder what kind of record player you’d need to get the most out of it?

Russelli would say the arm and phono stage would be the most important items to get the best out of the cart. There is a limit where the turntable would make any difference, these turntables costing many thousands of pounds/dollars are just for those who can afford them, the mere mortals that have orgasms over them is just from their cost or looks and not because they could sound any better.

[Mike Reed]

I saw a cartridge the other day for $12,000! I wonder what kind of record player you’d need to get the most out of it?

Russell

Top Koetsu, maybe? There are one or two others around that price. You wouldn't need anything special; a quality deck, good tonearm to suit the cart. and a competent stage. After all, you're not going to put a stone-bodied K on a cheap Rega or Project, are you ? 'Orses for courses. A good record player etc. will also extract the best from the cheapest cart's too.

[Oddball]

just to confuse matters further,i tried a eroica and thought it was nothing special,the denon 103sa on the other hand is so musical in comparison.:ner:

I thought you'd tried erotica for a moment there , Jamie !! :eyebrows:

I have a second hand £90 cart on a £60 turntable and I dont intend to pay much more :cool:

[AJSki2fly]

I have a Michell Cusis cartridge, purchased when I was building my system up cost £1100, its effectively a BENZ MICRO GLIDER S MOVING COIL CARTRIDGE with a different body built by Benz Micro for Michell. A bit of a one off. I have compared it to the Ortofon Blue Rondo, I still have from my last TT, in the Michell Gyrodec/SME IV arm and there is a difference. The Cusis has more detail and better definition. I think the Ortofon was original about a £600 cartridge.

Is the extra £500 difference in cost worth it, I would say yes, would I go to more than around £1000 probably not. I doubt my ears are up to detecting the subtle difference a £2000 cartridge might bring. The other thing is that would a better cartridge highlight the inadequacies of some of my second hand LP purchases, possibly.

I think that a £600-1000 spend on a good cartridge is worth it, but as already said it needs to be put in a reasonable good arm to gain the benefit.

[Barry]

Yeah but, it's not really a 38 quid turntable. A TD124/2 is a grand of anyone's money these days, and probably cheap at that.

That was my point about mixing recently purchased components with those bought years ago (46 years to be precise). If, as you say, one would have to pay £1,000 today for the TT, then it would seem that I have apportioned roughly equal amount to cartridge, arm and turntable; in line with my opinion that one ought to spend a similar amount on each part of the audio chain.

[Vrajbasi]

I have a Michell Cusis cartridge, purchased when I was building my system up cost £1100, its effectively a BENZ MICRO GLIDER S MOVING COIL CARTRIDGE with a different body built by Benz Micro for Michell. A bit of a one off. I have compared it to the Ortofon Blue Rondo, I still have from my last TT, in the Michell Gyrodec/SME IV arm and there is a difference. The Cusis has more detail and better definition. I think the Ortofon was original about a £600 cartridge.

Is the extra £500 difference in cost worth it, I would say yes, would I go to more than around £1000 probably not. I doubt my ears are up to detecting the subtle difference a £2000 cartridge might bring. The other thing is that would a better cartridge highlight the inadequacies of some of my second hand LP purchases, possibly.

I think that a £600-1000 spend on a good cartridge is worth it, but as already said it needs to be put in a reasonable good arm to gain the benefit.

I dont think Michell really sold those so quite rare, wonder how you got one of those?, I know a friend who purchased a new orbe and techno arm they refused to sell him the cartridge. You would here a difference with any cartridge £2000, 10k or £500 all have a flavour whether you prefer one or another is a different story.

[RobbieGong]

....rare NOS Kontrapunkt C and best offer too
Bet this"ll be a great cart https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 202417321973

[moffer]

£400 is my absolute max. Recently bought my third Hana EH for £30+ less than the going price of £384. My previous two Hana's were also acquired for well under the RRP at that time.