View Full Version : Attenuators yes or no ?
Both of my amplifiers are 1970’s models as is my fm tuner ( luxman T88v) , when using the tuner I have to turn down the volume by quite a bit in comparison to my dac ( Xiang sheng 01a ) so should I use attenuators on the tuner ?
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Can't do any harm to try a pair.
I have a pair of Rothwell 10dB you can borrow if your happy to cover the £3 postage. If this sorts your problem then happy to sell them as they only sitting in a draw doing nowt.
Can't do any harm to try a pair.
I have a pair of Rothwell 10dB you can borrow if your happy to cover the £3 postage. If this sorts your problem then happy to sell them as they only sitting in a draw doing nowt.
Hi John, thanks for the kind offer , like you I have some sitting in a drawer too.
Perhaps I should have worded my question differently like will it damage my amp by not using them ?
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No it won't damage the amp. If there is so much gain you can't get the dial off zero without it being too loud that's when you need attenuation.
No it won't damage the amp. If there is so much gain you can't get the dial off zero without it being too loud that's when you need attenuation.
Cheers Martin
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walpurgis
19-08-2018, 07:52
You could alternatively use a cheap passive pre-amp for the same kind of money. That would allow you to tailor levels exactly. My Chinese Little Bear passive works a treat in this kind of scenario. It's small and can be obtained for around twenty quid new. Sound quality is very good.
You could alternatively use a cheap passive pre-amp for the same kind of money. That would allow you to tailor levels exactly. My Chinese Little Bear passive works a treat in this kind of scenario. It's small and can be obtained for around twenty quid new. Sound quality is very good.
Just rearranged the inputs on my Xiang sheng dac to do the same as you’ve suggested Geoff , cheers mate
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Mike Reed
19-08-2018, 14:45
Didn't see this, Andy, but have posted on your wanted thread (as you know). I have the opposite problem in that my NAT 01, currently being serviced, doesn't shunt out enough. Sounds good, though and you can't INCREASE sensitivity anyway ! I'm surprised your tuner pumps out so much. My Technics press-button thingy from the eighties and the Leak (valved) Troughline I'm borrowing all have a lowish (but acceptable) output.
Didn't see this, Andy, but have posted on your wanted thread. I have he opposite problem in that my NAT 01 doesn't shunt out enough. Sounds good, though and you can't INCREASE sensitivity anyway ! I'm surprised your tuner pumps out so much. My Technics press-button thingy from the eighties and the Leak (valved) Troughline I'm borrowing all have a lowish (but acceptable) output.
Yes I barely get the volume past 7 o’clock ( 6 o’clock =0 ) with the Tuner whereas the cdp sits at 9-10 o’clock.
🤷🏼*♂️
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Tuners can often sound very loud, but it isn't because the output voltage is any higher than, say, a CD player - it's because the broadcasters compress the signal so much in order to keep the average signal up near maximum all the time. The commercial stations are all trying to make their station louder than the competition so it can be heard in a car above road/traffic noise. It increases the number of listeners and therefore advertisers.
Thanks for your input Andrew, I should say that the luxman does have variable output rca’s on the back which I don’t use.
Mike Reed
20-08-2018, 11:09
Tuners can often sound very loud, but it isn't because the output voltage is any higher than, say, a CD player - it's because the broadcasters compress the signal so much in order to keep the average signal up near maximum all the time. The commercial stations are all trying to make their station louder than the competition so it can be heard in a car above road/traffic noise. It increases the number of listeners and therefore advertisers.
Output voltages do differ, though. My NAT 01's output is very low, my old 80's Technics phase lock loop thingy slightly (but only slightly) higher but the valved Leak Troughline I'm currently borrowing is even higher; by quite a margin, according to the meters on my pre. All on R3, which, with R4, is the only station to my mind which is relatively unsullied by compression nasties. Having said that, Classic FM has improved in this respect over the last few years, but it ain't R3 !
Mike Reed
20-08-2018, 11:12
I should say that the luxman does have variable output rca’s on the back which I don’t use.
I can understand why, as fixed outputs nearly always improve on variable. However, in your case it might be worth trying those for a while rather than trying to attenuate the fixed.
I've always found that attenuators have a 'deadening' or 'flattening' effect on the sound, so I never use them.
walpurgis
20-08-2018, 13:16
I've always found that attenuators have a 'deadening' or 'flattening' effect on the sound, so I never use them.
I agree. It's not a severe effect, but it is there.
Mike Reed
20-08-2018, 16:32
You're not the only people to believe this,.....
I'm as yet unbiased, but am currently using RCA in-line attenuators on my CDP input for the first time. Maybe the theory can be inviolable on a technical level and even a practical one, but you are adding moveable connections, whereas in circuitry they'd be soldered in. If there is sonic deterioration, it might be down to this aspect rather than the attenuation itself. Sounded good when I tried -10 dB for a few CDs, but the jury's still out as it's not an A-B testing difference anyway.
You're not the only people to believe this, but attenuators are, in principle at least, only voltage dividers. Voltage dividers are used throughout audio amplifiers and throughout the rest of the electronics world. If voltage dividers can't be relied on to do what they should, the foundation on which the whole of electronics is built is wrong. How does any amplifier work if voltage dividers don't work? I can guarantee that 99% of forum members have amplifiers that rely on voltage dividers to work.
+1
Unless one is using an amplifier whereby the volume control varies the amount of feedback, in the vast majority of amplifiers, the volume control is a passive attenuator.
You're not the only people to believe this, but attenuators are, in principle at least, only voltage dividers. Voltage dividers are used throughout audio amplifiers and throughout the rest of the electronics world. If voltage dividers can't be relied on to do what they should, the foundation on which the whole of electronics is built is wrong. How does any amplifier work if voltage dividers don't work? I can guarantee that 99% of forum members have amplifiers that rely on voltage dividers to work.
i agree, but ive also heard ill effects from using external attenuators in line. No idea why
i agree, but ive also heard ill effects from using external attenuators in line. No idea why
Must be to do with impedance and resistance? For me these things seem to suck the life out my system (in the signal path), and so I prefer to keep impedance as low as possible.
The cheap 12Db ones I have ( Harrison Labs, maybe) make very little difference, I have some Rothwell 20db coming soon so I’ll give them a go and see what happens.
I’ve since tried the tuner through my dac and that has made no difference to the volume levels.
I can live with the low level ( high output) but wonder if I could be getting more from the amp even at slightly higher levels .
Incidentally the vu meters show 0.3-0.5 watts at this listening level .
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Mike Reed
20-08-2018, 21:16
Must be to do with impedance and resistance? For me these things seem to suck the life out my system (in the signal path), and so I prefer to keep impedance as low as possible.
As I mentioned in my post above, the extra connections (by increasing impedance) may be the culprit rather than the attenuation itself.
As I mentioned in my post above, the extra connections (by increasing impedance) may be the culprit rather than the attenuation itself.
But the extra connections will only increase the impedance (resistance) by a few tens of milliohms, if that.
You're not the only people to believe this, but attenuators are, in principle at least, only voltage dividers. Voltage dividers are used throughout audio amplifiers and throughout the rest of the electronics world. If voltage dividers can't be relied on to do what they should, the foundation on which the whole of electronics is built is wrong. How does any amplifier work if voltage dividers don't work? I can guarantee that 99% of forum members have amplifiers that rely on voltage dividers to work.
I dunno; I can only report what I heard. I wanted the attenuators to work, and they did to the extent that they increased the 'usable' range of the volume control, but (for me) with the unwanted side-effect of deadening the sound.
Mike Reed
21-08-2018, 09:47
But the extra connections will only increase the impedance (resistance) by a few tens of milliohms, if that.
Maybe, but the degree to which any degradation (by increase in impedance) happens is not the issue. It's still degradation by extra contact connections. If my current quest to find the correct attenuation for my CDP to pre. signal path finds fruit, I shall have that value incorporated into the pre. at the first opportunity.
Maybe, but the degree to which any degradation (by increase in impedance) happens is not the issue. It's still degradation by extra contact connections. If my current quest to find the correct attenuation for my CDP to pre. signal path finds fruit, I shall have that value incorporated into the pre. at the first opportunity.
And what is it about a single extra contact that causes degredation?
And what is it about a single extra contact that causes degredation?
I agree it is unlikely to be the culprit. But for everyone who says that attenuators worked fine for them there is another who says they flattened the sound. That was certainly my experience when using them with a Croft pre-amp. Baby went out with the bathwater. And yet I have seen other people say they use them with the exact same pre and they do not affect the sound quality. So there must be some other factor at work here.
Lawrence001
21-08-2018, 20:42
They flattened the sound in my system.
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seems to depend on system they are in, reading between lines here. plenty folk like them too;
and i dont think it fair to pick out rothwells over other makes. they are pretty much the same thing.
So how come the 10,000+ customers haven't sent them all back? How come I get so many emails saying they're delighted with their purchase?
As they say: you can't please all of the people, all of the time. In any business, if you've had positive reviews of a product you sell from over 10,000 satisfied customers, I'd say that there's good cause to rejoice, as you've obviously been doing something right!:thumbsup:
Marco.
Wished I had never asked now [emoji849]
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Yeah - it's all your fault :lol:
I’m on the naughty step , again [emoji16]
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Lawrence001
22-08-2018, 21:17
seems to depend on system they are in, reading between lines here. plenty folk like them too;
and i dont think it fair to pick out rothwells over other makes. they are pretty much the same thing.My fault rushing the post,I meant they were the only ones I have tried but it came out as picking them out to criticise. I apologised to Andrew and edited my post anyway.
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Mike Reed
23-08-2018, 11:17
I’m on the naughty step , again [emoji16]
Have you tried stepped attenuators, then ?:lol:
Have you tried stepped attenuators, then ?:lol:
[emoji23]
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You need Naughty Attenuators. You can get them in Anne Summers I think.
You need Naughty Attenuators. You can get them in Anne Summers I think.How do they work? Some kind of bondage restraint device?
And what precisely led you to them?:D
can't explain any of that on a family show, you know the rules.
Typing "Naughty Attenuators" into Googol doesn't help.
But since 'naughty' originally meant being so bad in behaviour, you were reduced to nought (in the eyes of God), presumably a 'naughty attenuator' is an attenuator that reduces the signal level to zero. i.e. an open circuit.
can't explain any of that on a family show, you know the rules.Tell that to three words daily:D
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