My Next Big Upgrade - A new listening room?

[twelvebears]

Fellow HiFi nutters, lend me your ears! Or at least your thoughts on this subject.

I've come into a bit of money, and while most of it will be used to pay off a chunk of the mortgage, I'm obviously intending to divert an amount towards my system.

Basically I've decided that I'm essentially very happy with the sound of things at the moment but that it's the room which is most limiting both the system as it stands AND the ultimate potential of any future upgrades.

If you look at the system here the issue will be quite clear.

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv187/twelvebears/DSC_4008.jpg

Basically it's squeezed into quite a small room of 11'6" by 10'6" and can only go in one VERY specific position because of doors and other furniture. In addition to the size and limited flexibility, I live in a terrace house and the room shares a wall with a neighbour's lounge, so combined with Susy's oversensitive volume control, this limits listening volumes a lot at certain times.

The plan I've come up with is to make my next upgrade a dedicated listening room at the end of the garden to use otherwise dead space. I've worked out that I will end up with a room that is approx. 14' by 13' so it will be a useful amount larger than it's present home PLUS it will be completely unencumbered by any of the usual domestic limitations.

It will be heated, well insulated, suitably sound-proofed and secured, with a dedicated mains supply (this is easy as a heavy duty external feed already exists for using lawn-mowers, power tools etc.) for system power and lighting.

It will allow me to listen at reasonable volumes at any time of the day or night, do whatever I like with room treatments to get the sound bang-on and I could even have the luxury of more than one pair of speakers which I could swap in and out of the system. AnthonyTD even suggested I could end up with two systems at opposite sides of the room and just move the listening position around as required.

So there you are, my grand plan.

Would very much appreciate people's comments, thoughts and any experiences anyone has with doing anything similar themselves.

[Spectral Morn]

Steve

Oh to have the option.... If I did I would build it along Golden Ratio dimensions. This should give you a great foundation for everything else.

If you do, can you give us a blow by blow fully photographed record of your journey ?

Sorry I did not meet you at the show...heck I was standing very close to you.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Will there be an upstairs with a bar?
What a project! I think we're all a little jealous.

Don't tell me you're going to build it in slate!

[REM]

Not just a shed but a hi-fi shed, you lucky geeza:).

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Sounds like an amazing idea, I too am v envious! I want to do the same user our back garden which is level with the lower roof of the back of our house... But I think it might be a bit too far fetches an idea!? Double ended room, double the pleasure... Like it!!

[twelvebears]

Steve

Oh to have the option.... If I did I would build it along Golden Ratio dimensions. This should give you a great foundation for everything else.

If you do, can you give us a blow by blow fully photographed record of your journey ?

Sorry I did not meet you at the show...heck I was standing very close to you.


Regards D S D L

I will definitely carefully capture every step of the process but I've lots of research to do yet, plus making decisions about budget etc.

Unfortunately I don't have complete freedom over sizes as the width is limited by the width of the garden at about 15' but the depth is a bit flexible as I can come down the garden further if needed. Internal height will be limited by the need to avoid planning restrictions (max of about 7'6").

Also need to make a decision about the basic construction. Wood framed buildings look better but will need more work to sound proof, plus maintenance becomes an issue when the sides and rear will be basically inaccessible. Concrete sectional buildings solve the maintenance issue and makes sound-proofing but look pretty damned ugly....

The good thing about this is that even if it should fail to work as a listening room for some reason, I'll still have added a warm, dry space that can be used as a guest room or games room and I've also always fancied a proper pool table.....

[Ammonite Audio]

As a qualified acoustician, my advice is firstly to keep things simple - don't be tempted by curved walls or anything like that. If you make a room big enough, then you'll have something to work with later on - too small and you won't ahve any options, merely compromises. Don't be afraid of a boring rectangular box, but if you can manage it, the Golden Ratio is a good thing to follow. It won't stop room modes (far from it), but it should ensure that the different modes don't stack up at similar frequencies.

If you want to keep the noise in, then the only satisfactory way is to build solid, massy walls, eg brick, block etc, taking care to prevent gaps. That means it's a challenge to ventilate your room, but not insurmountable. If you like the wood look, then build it in block and then clad it in maintenance-free cedar, or something similar. You can then choose to decorate and treat the interior as you wish.

When it comes to acoustic treatments, don't get carried away with absorbent panels or room treatments and be cautious of formulaic approaches to room acoustics, which tend to apply to performing spaces rather than critical listening rooms. Most rooms actually need a combination of absorption and diffusion, and the best solution is often arrived at through experimentation. That said, tinkering with early reflections can produce benefits, as long as you don't inadvertently introduce too much absorption, once sofas, rugs, curtains, bodies etc are added in. I would be tempted to start with a set of 3 panels from a supplier like http://www.gikacoustics.co.uk/gik-242-panel-4200-each-sold-3-per-box-12600-exc-vat14490-inc-vat-1-p.asp at a modest £145, then play around, adding or subtracting as necessary.

It may help to visualise the sound in the room by imagining your speakers as idealistic point sources (they are not, of course) throwing out small rubber balls of infinite bounciness: as each ball hits a surface it will be reflected in a specular manner, with residual energy depending on how absorbent the surface is. Diffusive surfaces will deflect the balls, and as they then bounce around some more, a greater feeling of ambience may result.

My last recommendation is nothing to do with acoustics. Make sure that the room is pleasing to be in and that you have a nice view through a window when you're sitting in the hotspot - that helps to get you into a nice frame of mind. I hear that Dave Cawley has a nice view from his listening room!

[stobear]

I am trying to view your plan, will you have to trot down the garden path to get yourself into the room? If so, the dont forget to wire for a phone, build a toilet, plenty of sockets and as mentioned above a view. Storage for C's and LP's if needed. Velux windows of course for sunlight.CCTV covering entry to the building. Just some random thoughts.

[Spectral Morn]

I am trying to view your plan, will you have to trot down the garden path to get yourself into the room? If so, the dont forget to wire for a phone, build a toilet, plenty of sockets and as mentioned above a view. Storage for C's and LP's if needed. Velux windows of course for sunlight.CCTV covering entry to the building. Just some random thoughts.


welcome to AOS

Could you pop into the Welcome section and say hello. Tell us a bit about yourself, taste in music and the system you use. We also like to use first names on AOS as we believe it makes for a friendly forum. A basic location would be nice too.

After all that some photos in the gallery would be nice.


Regards D S D L

[Alex_UK]

I have a similar cunning plan myself for a dedicated listening room (scuppered this year and last as it is dependent on realising share options which is currently on hold) - although mine will be an extension not a standalone building - I would still be looking at security as a major factor - a separate building will be much more attractive to thieves (witness the number of garage/shed break-ins, round here at least) so make sure you factor that into the plan (decent deadlocks, window locks, alarm if possible, alligator pit and machine-gun post a bonus...) and check with your insurers, too, both for the buildings and contents.

Good luck!

[twelvebears]

I have a similar cunning plan myself for a dedicated listening room (scuppered this year and last as it is dependent on realising share options which is currently on hold) - although mine will be an extension not a standalone building - I would still be looking at security as a major factor - a separate building will be much more attractive to thieves (witness the number of garage/shed break-ins, round here at least) so make sure you factor that into the plan (decent deadlocks, window locks, alarm if possible, alligator pit and machine-gun post a bonus...) and check with your insurers, too, both for the buildings and contents.

Good luck!

I will be making security a major consideration but fortunately it will be almost completely inaccessible to thieves, at least to one planning to be able to carry anything anyway. Only access to the garden is via a securely locked side passage with double, full-height gates. In addition I'll be including a dedicated alarm system in my budget.

I will be spending a lot of time investigating construction options and I may find that getting it scratch-built actually works out more cost effective.

I'll keep you all posted on progress.

[Macca]

I'm jealous - I once calculated out on the back of an envelope how to do this with golden ratio and all non-parrellel walls - If I had unlimited money! I think you have to make it from brick or blocks though - wood has to be out I think as will soak up bass?

[twelvebears]

If you want to keep the noise in, then the only satisfactory way is to build solid, massy walls, eg brick, block etc,

Hi Shuggie.

Your advice was much appreciated and has probably steered me away from a costly mistake.

I had be considering a very sturdily built 'log-cabin' as my start point. It basically uses a 'cabin within a cabin' with 70mm Celotex insulation between the two. As both the timber layers are nearly 2" thick, with domestic grade 28mm double glazing, I'd expected a reasonable level of 'sound reduction' and went to visit the company as they were nearby.

By lucky coincidence, their show cabins are in a bit of land near the factory and a busy road and as soon as I was inside, it was obvious just how much of the traffic noise penetrated the cabin. High and mid frequencies were muted yes, but the bass rumble of lorries came straight through. On the basis that low frequencies will get OUT just as easily, I've binned this as an option.

I've found a good local builder and we are cooking up a design between us, but basically it's going to use a good, solid double brick shell, insulated with Celotex backed plasterboard. The floor will be insulation on a solid concrete base, roof will be tradition joists with acoustic rock-wool between and the Celotex plasterboard over the top.

The front, which will be facing down the garden, will have bi-fold, double glazed doors.

Basically it'll be a 3-sided bunker with fancy doors. :lol:

[Mike Reed]

Just a couple of thoughts, Steve, from one who has never liked small hifi rooms.

13 feet is a very reasonable width (that IS internal, I hope !)

14 feet long, though, makes it a bit boxy, to my mind. You really cannot have a room which is too long.

Think about speakers you may have in the foreseeable future; ported ones like space behind; rear ported, lots of space.

Your listening chair/sofa/whatever, should be a couple of feet (or more) away from the rear wall (i.e. behind you) Far better ambience that way.

Where will your kit be sited? Within easy reach or between speakers? (guess not, with french windows) Not a bad idea to think about a little wall being built to isolate your t/t (etc.) from speaker sound, esp at high SPLs.

Height is important, and 7'6" is a bit of a compromise. I'd say, with anything other than smallish stand-mounts, that 8' really is the minimum. Excavate if necessary; don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar !

I'd suggest a new h//d armoured cable fot your hifi (with c.u. in your 'shed')and leave the existing got domestic use.

Lastly, I assume your loft is unconvertible !!!!

[Alex_UK]

Height is important, and 7'6" is a bit of a compromise. I'd say, with anything other than smallish stand-mounts, that 8' really is the minimum. Excavate if necessary; don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar !

Oooh, now there's an idea - a hifi bunker! Bet it would be very soundproof, and secure and you still get to keep the garden! (Not much of a view though!)

[twelvebears]

Just a couple of thoughts, Steve, from one who has never liked small hifi rooms.

13 feet is a very reasonable width (that IS internal, I hope !)

14 feet long, though, makes it a bit boxy, to my mind. You really cannot have a room which is too long.

Think about speakers you may have in the foreseeable future; ported ones like space behind; rear ported, lots of space.

Your listening chair/sofa/whatever, should be a couple of feet (or more) away from the rear wall (i.e. behind you) Far better ambience that way.

Where will your kit be sited? Within easy reach or between speakers? (guess not, with french windows) Not a bad idea to think about a little wall being built to isolate your t/t (etc.) from speaker sound, esp at high SPLs.

Height is important, and 7'6" is a bit of a compromise. I'd say, with anything other than smallish stand-mounts, that 8' really is the minimum. Excavate if necessary; don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar !

I'd suggest a new h//d armoured cable fot your hifi (with c.u. in your 'shed')and leave the existing got domestic use.

Lastly, I assume your loft is unconvertible !!!!

Unfortunately there's little I can do about any of the above Mike. Yes the loft is already converted but not usable as a listening room (even assuming I could defy gravity and manage to get the speakers up there), height is limited by planning restrictions (it'll be within 2m of a boundary), width is my terrace garden plus minimal maintenance gap and length is dictated by how much of Susy's veg growing area she will let me take....

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Oooh, now there's an idea - a hifi bunker! Bet it would be very soundproof, and secure and you still get to keep the garden! (Not much of a view though!)

I started looking in to making a hifi "bunker" yesterday... Can't afford it at the mo but it seems viable ... Although hannah thinks she should have it as I have the loft for my office ... "Not bloody likely" was about the just of my response ...

[twelvebears]

Well plans are progressing nicely and I should have a quote back this week.

Essentially it will be a brick built (went brick for sound proofing reasons plus it allows for building right up to the boundary as there's no need for maintenance access), flat roof jobbie, with one glass wall with sliding door for a good view down the garden. Insulated all around with a solid screed floor, downlights, power points etc.

It will also have a dedicated from the main consumer unit, so hopefully the power will be pretty cleen in there too.

Susy has even kindly given up a couple of feet of the back of her vegetable patch to allow me to make it slight larger. :)

[Marco]

Hi Steve,

Most interesting…

All I would add to the excellent advice given so far is to try and avoid a rectangular shape (if possible) by creating some angles in the corners, as in my experience, rectangular rooms can be a nightmare to produce a good sound in, no matter what material the walls are made of....

I get excellent sound in my smaller than average room, despite using huge speakers with 15" drivers, and one of the reasons for that is because I live in an old house (built 1897) where the rooms have oak beams and are irregularly shaped, not to mention the fact that the walls are also massively thick, so try and break up standing waves by creating some angles - and make those walls as thick as possible!

Also, I would avoid furnishing your new den too sparsely, if considering the currently fashionable 'minimalist' look, as this will make an outside area especially sound much too 'live', giving a hard, bright sound. I'd definitely be thinking of a carpeted floor (for warmth in the winter too) and a nice comfy sofa, with curtains on the windows; yes plural - you want plenty of light in there, and they should also be double-glazed to stop any rattling, as well maximising soundproofing and keeping heat in and draughts out.

Make sure that there's adequate heating installed too, as trust me your outside den will be absolutely Baltic in the winter!! Like Shuggs says, above all, make sure the space you create is warm, comfortable and inviting, otherwise no matter how good your system sounds, you won't go in there much once the novelty wears off...............

Lastly, since you're embarking on this project professionally and going about it the right way, I'd urge you to factor some quality equipment supports into the equation, as with the type of environment you're creating to use your system in, the sonic effect of properly designed equipment supports will be crucial in order to obtain the best sound. From having considerable experience in that area, I can't stress this enough!!

Anyway, good luck - I'll be following your progress with much interest :cool:

Marco.

[John]

No constructive comments to add but really interested to hear how this develops
Good luck

[twelvebears]

Hi Marco.

Internal dimensions are pretty much dictated by the space available but the following were already on the list:

Warmth - Will use high-spec insulation in the walls, floor and roof. Being able to keep it at a comfy temp in the winter without costing a fortune is a key requirement!

Acoustics - Already planning to have curtains for the windows (warmth and acoustics), one of more fluffy rugs (floor must me laminate for practical reasons - it's in the garden after all), sofa and storage units for media position to break up reflections. Will also consider soft wall coverings is some locations if needed.

[Ammonite Audio]

Steve

You seem to be on the right tracks. Just don't get overexcited and start putting in any commercial acoustic treatments in before you've had a chance to play around with the room for a while. As it's not huge, your sofas, curtains and rugs will almost certainly provide all the acoustic absorption that the room will bear. Although the neighbours won't thank you for it, listening in the summer with the doors open should be rather wonderful!

Cheers

Hugo

[twelvebears]

Steve

You seem to be on the right tracks. Just don't get overexcited and start putting in any commercial acoustic treatments in before you've had a chance to play around with the room for a while. As it's not huge, your sofas, curtains and rugs will almost certainly provide all the acoustic absorption that the room will bear. Although the neighbours won't thank you for it, listening in the summer with the doors open should be rather wonderful!

Cheers

Hugo

Hey Hugo.

Don't worry, getting the room fine tuned will be a progressive process, in fact I may well be calling in assistance from any will AOS members to help with this. Extra pairs of ears are always useful! I'll definitely be playing with domestic bits n bobs before buying any treatment products.

Most of the front wall will be glass 3m x 2.1m with the speakers firing back into the room, so hopefully having the doors open shouldn't be TOO bad. Besides which we put up with the kids yelling all the time so it's just tough. ;)

Will be getting the initial quote back tomorrow so then I'll know if it's definitely going ahead.

[John]

While you at it consider a dedicated earth mains

[Marco]

Hi Steve,


Internal dimensions are pretty much dictated by the space available...


No worries, but you can choose the shape of the room which will then fit into the available space, yes? All I'm saying is design slopes or angles into the corners to deviate from ending up with a rectangle :)


in fact I may well be calling in assistance from any will AOS members to help with this. Extra pairs of ears are always useful!


Be sure to give me a shout and I'll gladly come down and help. I've got significant experience in a number of areas which should be of use, particularly with regard to dedicated mains/earth set-ups for hi-fi systems - should be fun! :cool:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Did someone mention equipment supports?

If so they should not be ignored. It would be silly to invest so much time and money into a dedicated room only to disregard something so fundamental as what your kit sits on. And forget pretty furniture as it misses the point.