What type of cable has the biggest impact on SQ?

[Clive197]

First of all this is NOT a cable discussion as such. I would be interested to know what area of cables have the biggest influence on SQ. will it be 1. Speaker, 2. Analogue interconnect or 3. Digital Interconnect.

Let’s not get bogged down by one cable being better than the other for sound quality, price or which type of plug is used.

[walpurgis]

Each of the three cable types have varying effects on the sound. The perfect cable has none, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.

[nonuffin]

I was pondering on this very subject yesterday afternoon and it is not an easy one to untangle.

I don't think you could come to a firm conclusion about which cable would provide the biggest benefit, because of what is either upstream or downstream (in cable terms) of the cable you have just installed.

For example, if your worst cable is the speaker cable, then that will most likely mask the full benefits of an interconnect or digital cable swap. Conversely, an upgrade high performance speaker cable will show up the deficiencies of cables upstream of it, but as you add "better" cables upstream the effects will be rendered more clearly in that scenario.

I still say an upgrade power cord gives the best bang for buck though :sofa:

[Opti-cal]

As above a bad cable be it speaker/interconnect/power etc is going to hold your system back.

It also depends how far along the spectrum you begin. For example if you are going from belwire to a mid range speaker cable, there is going to be a jump in quality. But buying say a £2000 interconnect and using that same mid range speaker cable you probably won't achieve the same "jump" up in quality even though you have spent significantly more. The quality may have increased but probably not in as significant amount.

My point is all the cables should probably be within a similar budget scale be that cheap or expensive.

It's all about system synergy (good point about blowing up your amp Rothwell) and value to you the user.

For example some speakers like a high/low capacitance cable, some more/less resistance etc.

However I must concur with nonuffin that for me, a relatively small investment in some good power cables makes the biggest difference.

All things being equal (quality and budget wise) I'd say get a good power cable and see what you think.

Hopefully that helps . . . somewhat.

[Opti-cal]

Probably could have just condensed that entire post into saying . . . . Power Cable.

Apologies for over explanation of concepts I'm sure you all know!

[Opti-cal]

Different strokes I guess. Like a lot of things system dependent.

In my system I can swap some good speaker cable for budget stuff and still enjoy the experience.

If I do that same with my power cables the drop in SQ is more noticeable. IC's I don't hear a huge difference between mid range and budget. Some, not much.

Maybe I hear more difference in the power cables as I have a tube rectified amp. Maybe it doesn't make as much difference with SS gear.

[AJSki2fly]

Well i am not actually going to exactly answer your question, but after 40 years of playing around with music systems of various quality with analogue and digital inputs I have a sensible view point, I believe.

Firstly Turntable to Amp/Preamp, anything that impedes the signal here or colours it will the get amplified down the system until it pops out the speakers. It is worth paying attention to the impedance of the cartridge ie. 30ohms or less, 30-100ohms and then higher for moving magnet, if the moving coil cartridge is around 30ohms opt for a 30ohms or leas lead. What it is constructed of will depend on what your budget is and what quality of cartridge you have, if you put a budget cable onto a £1000 cartridge then you are unlikely to get a good result. Having said that there are some very good low end cables out there which to better you would need to spend lots of cash.

CD player stereo leads to amp, generally I find that most cables give good results, I have tried upper end cables on my Meridian and found little improvement.

Digital interconnect to amp whether coax or optical. Personally I have found that high end cables make little difference in end result, its a digital signal after all and unless you have really poor connections or a magnet next to it then it is unlikely to get corrupted. So I would opt for a sensibly price one.

Interconnects between phono amps, pre-amps and power amps. Once again choose cables that have an appropriate rating for the job in hand. Do they make a difference, yes they can, especially phono to pre-amp. In my experience they can colour the end result so it is important to find one that works well with your pre-amp to power amp setup. One thing to note is that I have found that pure silver cables can result in a harness in sound, I have no idea why this can be. IMO good clean connections can also be very important to ensure good signal path.

Now we come to the speaker cables issue. Do they make a difference, well yes they do, and is it a big difference? Well this really depends upon the listener, in my experience readably priced cables will sound fine for most. However if you sit down and listen carefully without distractions and want to experience the sound stage, depth and warmth of the music then speaker cable can alter these. My rule of thumb has been that reasonably priced single core copper speaker cables generally perform well and will give good bass response and sound stage(assuming speakers are up to it and set up correctly to maximise performance). Pure silver (and I have some that I used to use) can open up the sound stage but IMO can give rise to a slight emphasis to the top end frequencies, but with the right speakers can work well. I in fact use silver plated copper which are twisted and are shielded, they are not cheap but I have found that they have worked well with 4 different pairs of loud speakers ranging from around £500 to £6000 a pair. However to hear the difference between a reasonably priced single core copper speaker cable and these then you need to be listening for it. So if you are a casual listener and have lower budget equipment then spending £500-600 on speaker cable may not be worthwhile.

Finally bi-wiring, is it worth it, does it make a difference? Risking being shot down in flames I would say no, I have tried it with several amplifiers and compared it with having single cables to the speakers and very high quality jumpers on the speaker terminals and I have to say I cannot discern a difference.

So I suppose I have answered your question in a way, all the interconnects can make a difference, digital coax/optical probably the least in my opinion.


By the way if you don't care about brands the Hi-fi collective do some good cables at reasonable prices.

[Stereosane]

That is a tuff one.. I found the most significant change was using the same brand of cable for all three which gave me the most noticeable improvement, I guess there’s a synergy when using the same brand.

Best is to lend a few cables and play around.

[Yomanze]

Tonearm wiring, and tonearm cables, without a doubt. I have found speaker cables to have more of an impact than interconnects, but there is also the 'whole chain' to consider. For example, LFD gear seems to have a natural synergy with LFD interconnects & LFD speaker cable, YMMV.

[Barry]

Well i am not actually going to exactly answer your question, but after 40 years of playing around with music systems of various quality with analogue and digital inputs I have a sensible view point, I believe.

Firstly Turntable to Amp/Preamp, anything that impedes the signal here or colours it will the get amplified down the system until it pops out the speakers. It is worth paying attention to the impedance of the cartridge ie. 30ohms or less, 30-100ohms and then higher for moving magnet, if the moving coil cartridge is around 30ohms opt for a 30ohms or less lead. What it is constructed of will depend on what your budget is and what quality of cartridge you have, if you put a budget cable onto a £1000 cartridge then you are unlikely to get a good result. Having said that there are some very good low end cables out there which to better you would need to spend lots of cash.

What do you mean by a "30 ohms or less lead"? It can't be the loop resistance of the cable as that would normally be less than 0.1Ohm, and it can't be the characteristic impedance of the cable, since the concept of characteristic impedance doesn't apply at audio frequencies.

I would agree that the signal output from a moving coil cartridge is very low (less than 1mV) and thus 'delicate', but any good quality well-shielded cable will be acceptable.

[AJSki2fly]

That is a tuff one.. I found the most significant change was using the same brand of cable for all three which gave me the most noticeable improvement, I guess there’s a synergy when using the same brand.

Best is to lend a few cables and play around.

Completely agree, I did the same and also had a few demo cables, I have ended up with a mix, but found Chord for speakers and Ecosse for interconnects suit me best.

[Clive197]

Thanks guys for all your answers. Some of you may have misunderstood my intention.

If I asked what has the biggest impact to SQ between speakers or amplifiers, which would you buy 1st. I’m deliberately not asking about source as that would invariably open a can of worms. I would hope I’ve made my self a little bit clearer.

[Yomanze]

Thanks guys for all your answers. Some of you may have misunderstood my intention.

If I asked what has the biggest impact to SQ between speakers or amplifiers, which would you buy 1st. I’m deliberately not asking about source as that would invariably open a can of worms. I would hope I’ve made my self a little bit clearer.

I’d buy speaker cable first, because I have been able to spot differences more readily.

[bumpy]

That is a tuff one.. I found the most significant change was using the same brand of cable for all three which gave me the most noticeable improvement, I guess there’s a synergy when using the same brand.

Best is to lend a few cables and play around.

If you cant hear improvements by changing things like mains cables, then I would start changing components.

[Yomanze]

Blind testing is a good idea too. Not some horrible group ABX session with unfamiliar gear, but single component changes. I know subjectivists can pooh pooh it but it’s very interesting, for example, running 2x identical transports & CDs with different cables, and flipping between the two with your DAC’s source selector, or preamp if using the analogue outs. This was very very eye opening for me.

I had no issues, for example, in spotting the differences between Tellurium Q Black speaker cable, and my LFD Hybrid Ribbon cable. I also experienced a strange brightness when using a power cable, which I swapped out and alleviated the issue. Am not saying this stuff doesn’t make a difference...

[Gazjam]

Weirdly, a new perspective for me, HDMI cables used for i2s connection have a bigger impact on subjective sound quality swapping between them than any other bit of wire that I've tried.
Over the years I've tried a lot of different interconnects, speaker cables, power cables, DC cables from power supplies...all made a difference, but I'm hearing more variance swapping between HDMI cables running i2s.

Mad as it sounds, that's what I'm hearing.
Fascinating.

Clive,
between speaker cable and interconnects I'd go with speaker cable.
The boxes that produce the sound are the most important factor for me, and getting the "speaker output" right (speaker+cable=synergy) makes the biggest impact in my experience.
Room > Speaker > amp > source IMO

[Stratmangler]

I'm hearing more variance swapping between HDMI cables running i2s

That's probably because I2S was never intended to have 1m plus cables connected between digital and analogue stages.
It's intended for internal use over millimetres between adjacent ICs on a PCB.

[Gazjam]

That's probably because I2S was never intended to have 1m plus cables connected between digital and analogue stages.
It's intended for internal use over millimetres between adjacent ICs on a PCB.

Your right Chris.
0.3m Wireworld Platinum Starlight I think, toast n beans for another couple of months.

[Stratmangler]

Your right Chris.
0.3m Wireworld Platinum Starlight I think, toast n beans for another couple of months.

Cheapskate! :D
That's only £470.00 more than I'd consider using :)

[Gazjam]

:lol:


Cheapskate! :D
That's only £470.00 more than I'd consider using :)

[Yomanze]

That's probably because I2S was never intended to have 1m plus cables connected between digital and analogue stages.
It's intended for internal use over millimetres between adjacent ICs on a PCB.

Indeed, which is why the hardcore engineers do this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180819/5769301e4cd41b78e8c5940c52ba0ec1.png

[Gazjam]

That doesn't look cheap, what is it?
Know the 2m cable I'm using isn't ideal, will be swapping it out for a 30cm one eventually.

[Yomanze]

That doesn't look cheap, what is it?
Know the 2m cable I'm using isn't ideal, will be swapping it out for a 30cm one eventually.

It’s the back of a DAC, with separate BNC cables for clock and signal components. However, in your case, you have HDMI, so would recommend an officially certified 4K HDMI cable rather than audiophile fluff. With 18 Gbps cable bandwidth, it far exceeds any I2S requirements, which operates in the MHz range. 30cm length is a good idea as you’ve said, can pick one up for £20 easily. [emoji4]

[Gazjam]

Yeah knew it was a Dac Neil, just wondering which one it was?
That's the cool thing about i2s, it separates the clock from the signal and reduces digital jitter.

HDMI is a handy transport for it, with the separate cable runs in the wire.
I think at that point it's down to "normal" digital cable construction concerns, as not all digital cables sound the same and that has to be down to materials used, dialectric and probably a hundred things not measure yet. :)

See what happens, I'll try a few different ones as the ones I have sound quite different - so proof of concept at least proved.

[Haselsh1]

First of all this is NOT a cable discussion as such. I would be interested to know what area of cables have the biggest influence on SQ. will it be 1. Speaker, 2. Analogue interconnect or 3. Digital Interconnect.

Let’s not get bogged down by one cable being better than the other for sound quality, price or which type of plug is used.

Really interesting question Clive. For me it has always been the interconnects that have produced the biggest change in sound quality but a week or so back I also changed from coax digital interconnect to optical digital interconnect and the result was just about a transformation. The speaker cables for me have always produced the most ignorable change.

[Clive197]

...........I also changed from coax digital interconnect to optical digital interconnect and the result was just about a transformation..........

I have to say that goes completely against the grain. Coax has been the go to for me as optical has to be converted at each end so that the 1 & 0’s can be seen by the electronic circuitry. This would then give a good opportunity for jitter and noise to enter the system.

[clap]

For me mains cables have the biggest effect. I've seen others say the same.

[serendipitydawg]

Nary a mention of two crucial words "cognitive bias"

We're supposed to be listening to music, not cables; which is where all this "comparison" inevitably leads.

I am currently listening to Maurizio Pollini, one of the greatest pianists to have drawn breath. I am not wondering what make of cable was used during recording

[goraman]

It would be easier to answer the question who is the prettiest girl in the world then to answer which piece of cabling in all stereo systems would make the most difference.
The answer is going to be dependent on the needs of each individual component in the chain. For example if you have a tube amp with little to no Global feedback speaker cables are going to have to be very large and in short runs making them very important. If you have noisy Mains power a good power cable might help to reduce that before it gets to the Transformers making that very important.
With a digital component like a CD player or a DAC power cables make a much smaller difference the coax or the optical cable will be far more noticeable. As you have a lot more filtering in place.
And analog system, for example a turntable tonearm cables are going to be the most important, followed by interconnects to the Step up Transformer or phono stage.
In a large solid state system mostly digital, speaker wires will be of much less importance, and Mains cables will also be far less important than interconnects.
For personal listening I find headphone cable is to be the most important, especially any long extension cables.
The entire audio chain is never the same in any two systems so for me the cable that makes the most important is the one that reduces the largest deficiency. For example in a system where large speaker cable isn't an issue in your Mains power is well filtered and quiet it would always be best to start from the source with the best cable possible and correct or upgrade as you go down the chain., ending at your speakers.
Given you have done all that have a good whisky and just listen to music.

[Lawrence001]

I have to say that goes completely against the grain. Coax has been the go to for me as optical has to be converted at each end so that the 1 & 0’s can be seen by the electronic circuitry. This would then give a good opportunity for jitter and noise to enter the system.I've found that optical can cover up deficiencies elsewhere in the system, usually brightness or over-etched detail. Otherwise coax all the way.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[goraman]

I find coax to sound faster and more open than optical, but I have to admit my own prejudices of optical , I have herd it sound very good with all glass cable.
But I choose coax every time.

[Yomanze]

I've found that optical can cover up deficiencies elsewhere in the system, usually brightness or over-etched detail. Otherwise coax all the way.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

Yep, intrinsic jitter, like wot TOSLINK modules has, can have a blurring or smoothing effect on the sound. Some may prefer it.

My favourite connection is BNC.

[Macca]

Yep, intrinsic jitter, like wot TOSLINK modules has, can have a blurring or smoothing effect on the sound. Some may prefer it.

My favourite connection is BNC.

I agree that for whatever reason optical seems to have a smoother sound than co-ax but I doubt it has anything to do with jitter. Audible jitter distortion sounds like tape flutter, it's a pretty obvious degradation.

[goraman]

Yep, if you want to hear jitter, put a tight bend in an optical cable, it sounds like a FM radio station at the point of loosing signal, fffft,fffft,fffft! It's a very fast fall out repeated rapidly. I once bent a cheap monster optical in half to see if it really mattered. IT DID,A LOT!

[Yomanze]

There is a difference between hearing clearly audible jitter distortion effects, and the more subtle ones. Sometimes when people upgrade their CDPs with new clocks they can find it a bit ‘sharp’ and ‘clinical’, preferring the previous higher jitter clock.

[goraman]

There is a difference between hearing clearly audible jitter distortion effects, and the more subtle ones. Sometimes when people upgrade their CDPs with new clocks they can find it a bit ‘sharp’ and ‘clinical’, preferring the previous higher jitter clock.

I can belive that, as good transports and CDP 's always boast low jitter numbers.
I have no idea at what point jitter becomes audiably detectable?
Can someone with more knolage in the wide world of digital enlighten me please?

[tlscapital]

Purely CABLE talking on my simple analogue phono set-up I would say it's logically where it passes first in the chain; the tonearm cables. Then IMHO it should be the speaker's cables. But all in between if there's more as well...

[Macca]

I can belive that, as good transports and CDP 's always boast low jitter numbers.
I have no idea at what point jitter becomes audiably detectable?
Can someone with more knolage in the wide world of digital enlighten me please?

I have a link to the research on my home pc, I'll stick it up when I get home (if I remember).
The short answer is you need a lot for it to be audible. No CD player will have audible jitter so whatever the reason(s) people hear differences after installing after market clocks in their players a reduction in audible jitter won't be one of them. The very best professional RTR machines will have jitter levels an order of magnitude above the most basic of cd players, and vinyl even more. But oddly it's only cd players where it is claimed to have any effect on the sound.

[anubisgrau]

too short one!

[Macca]

Here's the research:

http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/uploads/documents/Benjamin_and_Gannon_on_Jitter.pdf

[goraman]

Here's the research:


http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/uploads/documents/Benjamin_and_Gannon_on_Jitter.pdf

Thanks Martin,
After reading all that,I wish I had not asked the question.
In the end even his conclusion was jitter should still be eliminated by manufacturers as much as possible.
But it did seem,jitter is not audible at reasonable levels. As stated jitter is a non issue. Can't lie though a lot went right over my head.

[Macca]

Thanks Martin,
After reading all that,I wish I had not asked the question.
In the end even his conclusion was jitter should still be eliminated by manufacturers as much as possible.
But it did seem,jitter is not audible at reasonable levels. As stated jitter is a non issue. Can't lie though a lot went right over my head.

Likewise. It's a complex subject which I think is why there is so much misinformation around. How a turntable works is much easier to understand!

[Stratmangler]

In answer to the title, an appropriate earth cable.

[goraman]

In answer to the title, an appropriate earth cable.

Gold and silver plated, silver soldered and clamped to a 99999.9 oxygen free copper rod plated in beryllium and grounded in 70% black sand from the Congo and 30% ground meteorite iron . No less than 4 meters depth of ground penetration.
Sorry just had too!

[Stratmangler]

Gold and silver plated, silver soldered and clamped to a 99999.9 oxygen free copper rod plated in beryllium and grounded in 70% black sand from the Congo and 30% ground meteorite iron . No less than 4 meters depth of ground penetration.
Sorry just had too!

I said appropriate, not some audiophile's wet dream :D

[Macca]

I said appropriate, not some audiophile's wet dream :D

Same thing.

[Stratmangler]

What do they call 99.99% oxygen free copper?
Copper!
If it's 99.98% it can't be called copper, cause there are too many impurities in it :eyebrows:

[Macca]

https://i.imgur.com/mMaqGMx.jpg

[Barry]

Copper nitrate - what they pay policemen/policewomen between the hours of 10pm and 6am.

[struth]

Capere to copper for polis or Policeman