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flatpopely
06-04-2010, 10:09
Hello People.

I am running a TT bake-off on the 10th July. Its just for a laugh and all egos to be left at the door. I'd love to hear an SL1210 with all the mods in my system on the day. Anyone fancy bringing one along? You will be made most welcome.

Here for details:-

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78183

Regards

Andrew.

Marco
06-04-2010, 10:41
Hi Andrew,

I'll gladly bring mine! :cool:

Do you have MM facilty on a phono stage to accommodate my A23 SUT (essential for the 103SA to perform optimally) or will I have to bring my own preamp?

Marco.

flatpopely
06-04-2010, 10:50
Hi Marco.

I was hoping you would offer! I will sort out a phono stage that can take MM but bring your Pre just in case.

Regards

Andrew

P.S. You may want to book in here unless you don't intend to drink........

http://www.newinnmotel.co.uk/

Marco
06-04-2010, 11:12
Hi Mark,

Count me in, then! I'll bring my pre then, as also it's a known variable (to me). I'm not a massive drinker, so will probably just have a couple of beers - no need for a hotel. I'd rather just get back up the road when it's over, even if it is late :cool:

Where do you live again? PM me your addy :)

Marco.

DSJR
06-04-2010, 18:11
I hope both of you will end up impressed. Andrew's LP12 is something else IMO and way ahead of the fruity sound of ten, let alone twenty years ago...

Marco
06-04-2010, 18:58
Due to, erm, 'politics' (don't ask!), we've decided to have a mini bake-off between just the two of us and also Mark YNWaN on 30th July, which I'm sure will be lots of fun :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
06-04-2010, 20:00
Politics Marco?
I can only assume that it was originally planned for the day of the election...........ahem...........

YNWaN
06-04-2010, 20:16
Yes - life is never simple :) I'm sure it will be a lot of fun though.

Neither Andrew nor myself have used a MM in a long time (an exceedingly long time in my case) - so we will have to see what we can sort out there.


Andrew's LP12 is something else IMO and way ahead of the fruity sound of ten, let alone twenty years ago...

That's very kind of you to say so David; I admit that warm, cuddly (opaque) sound is not to my taste at all (although some LP12 fans still seem to cling to it).

Dave Cawley
06-04-2010, 21:40
This will be like comparing apples to bananas. A SL-1200 with SME 309 and OC9 would be much better to compare. Otherwise they will sound different and no comparison could be made?

Or why not add a SME 20 as well?

Dave

DSJR
06-04-2010, 21:51
Dave, have you heard Andrew's needle drops? possibly closer than you may think except for the possibly slightly softer or less "obvious" 103 treble (and I'm not criticising this at all!). The EsCo rebuild really does seem to have breathed new life into the old Troika IMO..

Marco, what other cartridges do you have, or can you borrow an OC9 or 33PTG for the bakeoff, or better still, an SME309/OC9 as dave suggests? Not that you'd want to do this, but a Troika sounds grand in a 309 and SME supplied us with a three-hole headshell for the purpose...

YNWaN
06-04-2010, 21:58
Well, to be fair, the comments regarding comparing apples and bananas seem pretty just to me. In all honesty I don't expect it to prove anything - but will be fun never the less :).

chris@panteg
06-04-2010, 22:09
Dave, have you heard Andrew's needle drops? possibly closer than you may think except for the possibly slightly softer or less "obvious" 103 treble (and I'm not criticising this at all!). The EsCo rebuild really does seem to have breathed new life into the old Troika IMO..

Marco, what other cartridges do you have, or can you borrow an OC9 or 33PTG for the bakeoff, or better still, an SME309/OC9 as dave suggests? Not that you'd want to do this, but a Troika sounds grand in a 309 and SME supplied us with a three-hole headshell for the purpose...

Hi Dave ' a Troika in a 309 , now your giving me ideas :rolleyes: .

Marco
06-04-2010, 22:14
Hi Dave,


This will be like comparing apples to bananas. A SL-1200 with SME 309 and OC9 would be much better to compare.

Why? I don't understand what you're implying.... :scratch:

T'other Dave,


Marco, what other cartridges do you have, or can you borrow an OC9 or 33PTG for the bakeoff, or better still, an SME309/OC9 as dave suggests? Not that you'd want to do this, but a Troika sounds grand in a 309 and SME supplied us with a three-hole headshell for the purpose...


Sorry, I don't get this either. Why should I bring anything other than what I use normally?

This is just an informal bake-off for a few of us to listen to some music and have a giggle, or at least that's how I'm taking it - it is not in any way a place to make 'serious' comparisons :)

Hi Mark,


I admit that warm, cuddly (opaque) sound is not to my taste at all...


Nor mine - my modified 1210/Jelco750/DL-103SA/A23 SUT doesn't sound anything like that either! :cool:

Marco.

YNWaN
06-04-2010, 22:36
I think (or at least this is how I interpreted it) that people were just saying that the deck, arm, cartridge combinations would be so different that it would make meaningful comparisons difficult.


This is just an informal bake-off for a few of us to listen to some music and have a giggle, or at least that's how I'm taking it - it is not in any way a place to make 'serious' comparisons :)

Yes indeed, 100%

Marco
06-04-2010, 22:43
I think (or at least this is how I interpreted it) that people were just saying that the deck, arm, cartridge combinations would be so different that it would make meaningful comparisons difficult.


I got that, Mark, but I fail to see how an OC-9 and SME 309 would improve matters in that respect. All the OC-9 would do is make things sound thin and a bit bright (sorry, it's not my favourite cartridge), although the SME would tame things down and add more weight and texture.

Don't be under any illusions though that my arm and cartridge combination sound 'lush' or 'romantic', 'cos they most certainly don't on the 1210 through the A23 (especially using the valve phono stage in my Croft preamp, which is voiced to sound explicit and detailed)! :)

Marco.

YNWaN
06-04-2010, 23:06
I got that, Mark, but I fail to see how an OC-9 and SME 309 would improve matters in that respect. All the OC-9 would do is make things sound thin and a bit bright (sorry, it's not my favourite cartridge), although the SME would tame things down and add more weight and texture.

Oh well, I quite agree - I wasn't seconding the recommendations to alter the arm or cartridge. I don't rate the OC-9 either - and for much the same reasons you give (I guess they were just thinking MC instead of MM - I don't know).

Please be assured, I've not got any pre-formed opinions as to what your deck sounds like - I don't know what it sounds like. My comments regarding 'warm and cuddly' entirely related to older LP12's (in line with Dave's earlier post).

Marco
06-04-2010, 23:13
Lol - indeed, but where are they getting the MM thing from? The 103SA is an MC cartridge!

The only reason I mentioned MM (to Andrew earlier) was in reference to obtaining an MM phono stage with which to use with my A23 step-up transformer. The latter is essential in order to optimise the sonic performance of the DL-103SA.


Please be assured, I've not got any pre-formed opinions as to what your deck sounds like - I don't know what it sounds like. My comments regarding 'warm and cuddly' entirely related to older LP12's (in line with Dave's earlier post).


No worries, Mark - it was just the rather bizarre comments earlier from the two Daves...as if somehow an OC-9 and an SME arm were going to make our T/T comparisons more relevant :scratch:

Marco.

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 07:16
Hi Marco

A request was made to compare a SL-1200 to a Linn. The request wasn't to compare your SL-1200 to a Linn, although there would be nothing wrong with this, apart from the apples and bananas!

Our comments weren't "bizarre" and it is a pity you "don't understand" and "fail to see"

I have supplied more SME 309's fitted to SL-1200's than I have Jelco's.

But then Linn's come in different flavours too! I hope this isn't going to turn into Marco's turntable versus Linn? Not everyone likes the 103SA and some even dared to suggest this after the Scalford sessions on this very forum. An some would not have liked the SL-1200, SME V, Koetsu Rosewood Signature, but I suspect a lot of Linn people might have?

So please lets not make this a Marco's turntable versus the world again!!

And chaps, I have a brand new DL-103SA in stock, the very first offer from me is here, on A.O.S :grouphug:

Regards

Dave

Marco
07-04-2010, 07:45
Hi Dave,


A request was made to compare a SL-1200 to a Linn. The request wasn't to compare your SL-1200 to a Linn, although there would be nothing wrong with this, apart from the apples and bananas!


Nope, that is where you are mistaken. Read what the OP (Andrew) wrote again:


I'd love to hear an SL1210 with all the mods in my system on the day. Anyone fancy bringing one along? You will be made most welcome.


All he's saying is that he'd love to hear an SL-1210 in his system, along with a few other T/Ts. It didn't matter if it was mine or not, although Andrew did say that his request was originally aimed at me, as stated here:


Hi Marco.

I was hoping you would offer!


... and that this would take place in the company of a few friends at an informal bake-off. It was not a specific request to formally compare an LP12 to a Technics.


Our comments weren't "bizarre" and it is a pity you "don't understand" and "fail to see"

I have supplied more SME 309's fitted to SL-1200's than I have Jelco's.


What I found "bizarre", Dave, was this remark:


A SL-1200 with SME 309 and OC9 would be much better to compare.


Better how? Given the nature of Andrew's request, in what way would that help matters? It would in fact do the exact opposite, as it appears that none of us likes OC-9s! I'd appreciate it if you explained what prompted you to make that remark.


I hope this isn't going to turn into Marco's turntable versus Linn?


Nope - where did you get that from? You're reading into things again mate that don't exist. Mine would've been (I now won't be there on the main day of the bake-off) only one of many other T/Ts. See this thread on pfm for details:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78183

...and note in particular this comment from Mark:


Having had a little chat with Andrew, these are some of the decks we would like to hear (very much): a Michell Orbe, Avid, Brinkmann (Oasis), Simon Yorke, Roksan TMS, Pink Triangle Export, Voyd (you listening Pete ?), fully loaded 1200, Funk modified LP12, SME (20 or 30), Oracle, Garrard 401 and 30l (preferably with something like an SMEV)...


Hardly just my T/T versus a Linn is it, old chap?


I have supplied more SME 309's fitted to SL-1200's than I have Jelco's.


And?? What's that supposed to prove? :scratch: If you want to go into statistics, how many of your SME 309 sales resulted after customers directly A/B compared it and a Jelco, using the same cartridge, on two SL-1200s side-by-side in your demo system, and how many were made through you simply selling them a 309 on the phone because that's the arm YOU prefer (or perhaps rather choose to promote)? ;)

The former statistic would tell much more accurately which tonearm more people actually preferred and considered as sonically superior.


Not everyone likes the 103SA and some even dared to suggest this after the Scalford sessions on this very forum.


I must've missed that (perhaps you could direct me to the relevant comments?), although not that it matters as people are entitled to their different opinions. Contrary to what you may think, I have no problem with that whatsoever.


So please lets not make this a Marco's turntable versus the world again!!


"Again"?? When has this ever happened before??? Again, me old son, you are filling your head with things that don't exist!!

So please, try not to make how you interpret situations into the actual reality, which is often something rather different..... :cool:

Marco.

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 09:01
So please, try not to make how you interpret situations into the actual reality, which is often something rather different.....

Yes indeed! But I can tell you from sitting here, that my reality is quite real! But please don't take this as criticism, it is not, I'm just portraying a different view, and I'm sure I'm entitled to do that here?

I have said what I mean, and so have you. I don't need any further explanation from you, and if you read what I said again, it might make sense, but if not don't worry.

There is more than one incarnation of the SL-1200 and you and I have two of them. It's important we both have our own say, and Martin too when he gets his Dynavector in a few days time?

Regards

Dave

Marco
07-04-2010, 09:24
Hi Dave,


Yes indeed! But I can tell you from sitting here, that my reality is quite real! But please don't take this as criticism, it is not, I'm just portraying a different view, and I'm sure I'm entitled to do that here?


Of course, but when you portray what I've written in a false light, don't expect me not to correct it when you're wrong! ;)


I have said what I mean, and so have you. I don't need any further explanation from you, and if you read what I said again, it might make sense, but if not don't worry.


That's fine, but I still don't understand why you made the remark about the OC-9 and SME. However, obviously you don't want to explain, so we have no choice but for it to remain a mystery.............


There is more than one incarnation of the SL-1200 and you and I have two of them. It's important we both have our own say, and Martin too when he gets his Dynavector in a few days time?


Absolutely, mate, but if you challenge my views (as you're perfectly entitled to do) then you must expect me to defend them equally as robustly in return - that's simply how it is on forums such as this, so no hard feelings :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 09:30
There is the nub Marco, I wasn't challenging your view, that is how you perceived it. I was offering an alterative scenario. And likewise, no hard feelings! :)

Dave

Marco
07-04-2010, 09:33
Lol, indeed - an "alternative scenario" which would likely have been of no benefit to the people concerned! ;)

Anyway, let's leave it there and move on :cool:

Marco.

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 09:44
Some people on this very thread have already agreed with me! So please let me have my say "no benefit" isn't really OK. Especially as I have not said the same about you.

Let and let live Marco! :)

Dave

Marco
07-04-2010, 09:57
Ok, obviously you want to continue this debate, so let's carry on.....

Dave, the "no benefit" remark was aimed at the people, such as Mark (YNWaN) and myself (I think Andrew, too), attending the bake-off who don't like OC-9s (and therefore it would be counterproductive if my 1210 was fitted with one) - it has nothing to do with the views of anyone else here! :doh:

Can you understand this now? :)

Yes, Dave (DSJR) appeared to agree with your view, so perhaps he can shed some light on that remark about the SME/OC-9 and prevent it from remaining a mystery......

Incidentally, as an aside, if in your opinion an SME arm is required in order to showcase the full potential of a modified SL-1200, then why is the T/T you take to shows not fitted with one (and indeed rather ironically instead a Jelco SA-750)?

Surely this is counterproductive to your demonstrating the benefits of your Technics modifications to maximum effect?

Marco.

flatpopely
07-04-2010, 12:16
Everyone.

Here is how I see it, and lets face it its going to be at my house so it's my party!
Marco has very kindly offered to come along with the deck he uses every day. Thats EXACTLY what this is about. Its just a laugh and not an objective comparison in any way.
I expect on the day that there will be some parts of the sound that Marco prefers on my deck to his and I will like some parts of Marcos deck better than mine. Whatever the outcome we will be listening to music and having a chat, can't say fairer than that.

Andrew.

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 12:17
Marco, I always said I understood you!!

Dave

YNWaN
07-04-2010, 12:21
Can I ask what the different 'incarnations' of the SL-1200 are?

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 12:22
Can I ask what the different 'incarnations' of the 1200 are?

How long have you got?:)

Dave

Marco
07-04-2010, 12:30
Hi Dave,


Marco, I always said I understood you!!


We're going round in circles mate, so let's just leave it there! :lol:

Marco.

P.S This is a message for Mr Dunn (he of NVA) whom I know is avidly following this thread and reporting it on his blog (sorry, forum), adding of course his usual jaundiced slant, for the benefit of no-one other than himself:

Hi Richard,

Glad I'm keeping you amused - I'll make sure that I continue to do so! :wave:

;)

Regards,
'Il Duce'.

YNWaN
07-04-2010, 12:35
Can I ask what the different 'incarnations' of the 1200 are?

How long have you got?:)

Dave

Well, roughly - within the context of your earlier comments.

I suppose there is:

Standard
Changed arm only
Arm and feet changed
power supply changed
bearing changed
platter changed

Are these the kind of 'incarnations' you were thinking of, or is there another aspect?

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 12:49
Always glad to amuse !

Dave

flatpopely
07-04-2010, 12:55
P.S This is a message for Mr Dunn (he of NVA) whom I know is avidly following this thread and reporting it on his blog (sorry, forum) for the benefit of no-one other than himself:

Hi Richard,

Glad I'm keeping you amused - I'll make sure that I continue to do so! :wave:

;)

Regards,
'Il Duce'.

As usual a convenient interpretation of events is playing out on the blogdumb.

Its YOUR deck I want to hear not something upgraded for the day. Whether it could be improved or not is not the question on the AoS, it is on the blogdumb.

Dave Cawley
07-04-2010, 12:57
incarnations

Yes, those sort. But then you have the Jelco - DL-103 versus SME 309 - OC9. Much like any other deck in fact. And then there is the Rega arm route, the SME V route, the Dynavector DV507, the liner trackers, so many differences!

All things to all men?

Regards

Dave

Marco
07-04-2010, 12:58
Its YOUR deck I want to hear not something upgraded for the day. Whether it could be improved or not is not the question on the AoS, it is on the blogdumb.


Lol - thanks for the clarification Andrew. He's an old man with seemingly not much else to do with his time, so I guess you have to feel a little sorry for him :)

Marco.

DSJR
07-04-2010, 13:28
Personally, I'd like to compare a fully and currently fettled Techie with 309 (wonderful arm and possibly the best conventionally pivoted arm with detachable headshell?) and Esco'd Troika to Andrew's tricked out LP12/Rubykon etc/re-built ittok/Esco'd Troika. I know it's not in the slightest a scientific comparison, but, trusting the abilities of Mr P's deck and coming from that 1980's heritage, I'd like to see where the Techie is by comparison, baring in mind the SL1200 with decent feet, mat and Timestep is around the price of the Rubykon on its own, let alone the Radikal etc and the arms were similar price once upon a time (5 - 600 as I remember).....

I'm not in the slightest having a go at the Jelco 750, which is a true bargain for well under 500 with cable, but I'd have put the SME as nearer the re-built Ittok myself (not having compared the 750D to a 309 or Ittok [I have compared the latter two, the Ittok being as supplied brand new - the 309 was better on an LP12 IMO]).

chris@panteg
07-04-2010, 22:39
Dave ' that's a comparison i would like to try also .

It just so happens i have 309 on my 1210 :rolleyes: , i didn't know the 309 worked well on an LP12 ? i well remember Chris Frankland Slagging off the Whole range of SME arms back in the late 80's .

Would SME still do a 3 point fixing 309 headshell for the troika ? .

pure sound
08-04-2010, 13:31
Chris Frankland was an idiot.

YNWaN
08-04-2010, 16:11
Would SME still do a 3 point fixing 309 headshell for the troika ? .

I doubt it, to be honest.

Dave Cawley
08-04-2010, 16:35
Would SME still do a 3 point fixing 309 headshell for the troika.

They would for me!

Regards

Dave

MartinT
08-04-2010, 17:03
and Martin too when he gets his Dynavector in a few days time?

Dave - I'm gagging for it! Do you have news?

Dave Cawley
08-04-2010, 18:06
It should be ready for you on Monday!

Dave

chris@panteg
08-04-2010, 22:50
Chris Frankland was an idiot.

:lol:

And a jailbird to boot !

The Vinyl Adventure
08-04-2010, 22:52
It should be ready for you on Monday!

Dave

sweeet!

chris@panteg
08-04-2010, 23:01
Hi Martin

Are you going to do a step by step photo of the installation ' its going to look the muts ' nuts on your 1210 .

looking forward to reading what you think of it :)

Marco
08-04-2010, 23:49
Dave - I'm gagging for it!

Hehehe... You can almost hear the squelch in your underpants! :lol:

Nice one - we expect a full review with pictures within 48 hours of it arriving ;)

Marco.

MartinT
09-04-2010, 00:21
Don't worry, all, I'll document it and write it up. I'm just working out which day I can get down to Dartmouth.

flatpopely
09-04-2010, 23:24
Marco.

Is the 750d made by the same company that made the Ittok?

I get conflicting reports but I am sure I read in a Linn mag that Jelco made the Ittok.

Andrew.

YNWaN
09-04-2010, 23:29
I used to think so too, but I don't think so any more.

flatpopely
09-04-2010, 23:37
Who did make the Ittok then?

snapper
10-04-2010, 00:00
I was told early Ittoks were made by Jelco and later ones by Linn at Drakemire Dr.

This from two different people,one that worked for Linn and one that still works
there.

The Grand Wazoo
10-04-2010, 00:01
I was told early Ittoks were made by Jelco and later ones by Linn at Drakemire Dr.



That's pretty much how I understood it to be too.

flatpopely
10-04-2010, 00:08
I will have a Jelco version then.

DSJR
10-04-2010, 08:29
The above is correct, but I think Linn had a go at making or assembling Ittoks with the very first batch of a dozen or so "Glasgow Black" ones in '83 or so and also did a handful of custom 12" ones too (one for their cutting lathe). It's clouded in history now and Linn back-peddled like mad over it, but we thought these sounded better at the time.

I understand that in 1985, Linn upgraded the Ittok slightly and the colour of the arm-tube finish seemed to change at around the same time. I remember some of this so well, but other bits I can't - it was 25 years ago when all's said and done..

My favourite Ittok of them all was the LVIII, which looked so much better, sounded a bit more refined as I recall and of course, the last ones with integral arm-rest were the forerunners of the Ekos I'm told, although I preferred the Ittok at the time (silly if they were the same arm, but there you go. As I remember, the LVIII sold for 600 and the Ekos for nigh on double that on introduction (the ARO was about 750 IIRC).

The best "feeling" of the Ittoks (tracking force dial precision etc) were the early ones, the dials operating like silk. For some reason, all the later ones felt a bit "gritty" by comparison.

Somewhere, there is the arm that the Ittok was derived from. I can't remember it's name, but it looked fairly similar..

pure sound
10-04-2010, 09:23
Not by Jelco but by another oem supplier called Denon (no relation to the well known Denon). I remember seeing a catalogue once many years ago with the Ittok in it, only not badged as an Ittok.

MartinT
10-04-2010, 09:34
Who made Linn's cartridges? AT?

YNWaN
10-04-2010, 10:24
Not by Jelco but by another oem supplier called Denon (no relation to the well known Denon). I remember seeing a catalogue once many years ago with the Ittok in it, only not badged as an Ittok.

Yes, that's right - thanks for jogging my memory :).

I've found these pics that are interesting. They are of a 'Denon DA-305 9 inches Nipon tone arm' (as the advertisement describes it):

http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1266214556.jpg
http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1266214557.jpg
http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1266214555.jpg

These pics show some VERY Linn type bits. Specifically, the separate armrest is almost exactly the same as the one that came with the Ittok, the lift lower device (and lever) is exactly the same as came with the Basik and LVX, the arm cable and moulded female din is very similar indeed to the one that came with all Linn arms for a very long time.

___________________________________________

I also found these pics of the Keith Monks Kmal arm that strongly reminded me of the Naim ARO :).

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1274308903 Ah, those were the days....when a bottle of mercury was supplied with your new arm!

YNWaN
10-04-2010, 10:31
Who made Linn's cartridges? AT?

AT for the moving magnet ones - Supex for the MC's.

The newer MC's (after the Troika) are made by Scantech (they of Lyra).

pure sound
10-04-2010, 11:55
Ah, those were the days....when a bottle of mercury was supplied with your new arm!

Not quite as dangerous as the mercury floating TT i saw a couple of times at the Paris show back in the late 80's!

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/td_hg.htm

DSJR
10-04-2010, 12:31
Denon did indeed make their own tonearms, but I doubt it's the company referred to by Guy earlier.

The now stupidly over-priced (on fleabay) Basik LVV tonearm shared many bits with the ADC tonearms, namely the arm-cradle, bias block/arm-rest assembly and possibly the pillar bearings, although I can't be sure about this. i thought these were jelco derived. We used to buy them in cartons of four at a time, as we did all the Basiks at the time.

YNWaN
10-04-2010, 13:16
Not quite as dangerous as the mercury floating TT i saw a couple of times at the Paris show back in the late 80's!

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/td_hg.htm

:) It's got a key to start it and the blurb says it has an engine too (not a motor).

YNWaN
10-04-2010, 13:22
The now stupidly over-priced (on fleabay) Basik LVV tonearm shared many bits with the ADC tonearms, namely the arm-cradle, bias block/arm-rest assembly and possibly the pillar bearings.

Ah yes, they did indeed....but who made the arms for ADC...?

http://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/thumbs/adc_lmf-2.jpg

Marco
11-04-2010, 17:29
Hi Mark,

That pic's not working for me, soz... Perhaps you have to be a logged-in member of VE? :)

Marco.