DL-103 and other cartridge musings

[Ammonite Audio]

I'm hoping that Marco can help me to decide what cartridge I wish to buy. He knows that I was unexpectedly taken by his DL-103SA, but I'm not spending that sort of money. A bog standard DL-103 is cheap enough to risk a little over £100, but here are my questions:


1. Does it require additional mass to work in a Sumiko headshell in a Jelco-SA-750D? I should stress that I don't want to be chasing exotic and expensive headshells.


2. If it does require extra mass, then would an Isokinetik cartridge stabiliser like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-CARTRIDGE-STABILISER-FOR-DENON-103-DL-103R_W0QQitemZ170332762192QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurnt able_Parts_Accessories?hash=item27a89fb050 do the trick? It has the considerable advantage of having threaded bolt holes that leave the plastic body of the 103 rather redundant, so it's easier to set up than the standard DL-103.


3. If I understand that cartridge stabiliser correctly, it should be possible (if I was really taken with the DL-103) to carefully remove the plastic body and leave it naked, but firmly glued to the stabiliser. Would that be better than using an alloy body like this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-Denon-103-dl-103-aluminium-body-103r-BLACK_W0QQitemZ170449075436QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn table_Parts_Accessories?hash=item27af8e7cec . Clearly, if £60 worth of body is not required, then why spend it?


4. DL-103 variants and tweaking aside, I wonder how Grado moving iron cartridges might compare. From what I've been told about them, they could well be to my liking. Like the DL-103, they're cheap enough to take a risk, but before I do that, I'd be interested in what others think

I think that's enough for now.

[Haselsh1]

I tried a DL-103 years ago in a Linn Basik tonearm. It wasn't a good match. The treble was very rough and coarse due partly to the spherical stylus shape and the light weight of the early Basik arm. In spite of that I would still look at accomodating a DL-103 as it sounds fabulous but it's no good in my bog standard SL1210.

[DSJR]

Grado's are dull, dul, dull IMO, but can mollify a gritty tweeter..

Despite my comments regarding the conical tip, a standard DL103C is actually a quite neutral cartridge, lacking the meaty bass rise of some MC's on the one hand and the slightly rising treble of others. I reckon a Sumiko shell should be fine for under £30 on ebay (jelco's own shell looks ok, but I don't know how rigid it is).

Bbe careful when "tightening" the fixing bolts, which ought to be stainless (non magnetic) steel. Tom Fletcher used to recommend a "smear" of something or other (I forget, but hifi dave might remember) betwixt top of cartridge and shell to aid coupling.

[blake]

I'm hoping that Marco can help me to decide what cartridge I wish to buy. He knows that I was unexpectedly taken by his DL-103SA, but I'm not spending that sort of money. A bog standard DL-103 is cheap enough to risk a little over £100, but here are my questions:


1. Does it require additional mass to work in a Sumiko headshell in a Jelco-SA-750D? I should stress that I don't want to be chasing exotic and expensive headshells.


2. If it does require extra mass, then would an Isokinetik cartridge stabiliser like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-CARTRIDGE-STABILISER-FOR-DENON-103-DL-103R_W0QQitemZ170332762192QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurnt able_Parts_Accessories?hash=item27a89fb050 do the trick? It has the considerable advantage of having threaded bolt holes that leave the plastic body of the 103 rather redundant, so it's easier to set up than the standard DL-103.


3. If I understand that cartridge stabiliser correctly, it should be possible (if I was really taken with the DL-103) to carefully remove the plastic body and leave it naked, but firmly glued to the stabiliser. Would that be better than using an alloy body like this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-Denon-103-dl-103-aluminium-body-103r-BLACK_W0QQitemZ170449075436QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn table_Parts_Accessories?hash=item27af8e7cec . Clearly, if £60 worth of body is not required, then why spend it?


4. DL-103 variants and tweaking aside, I wonder how Grado moving iron cartridges might compare. From what I've been told about them, they could well be to my liking. Like the DL-103, they're cheap enough to take a risk, but before I do that, I'd be interested in what others think

I think that's enough for now.

It will work better with a bit of additional mass. IMO, the Isokinetic body is the way to go as opposed to the stabiliser. While you might find the odd person who prefers a nude 103/103R to one in a wood or aluminum body, the bodies are preferred pretty overwhelmingly by anyone with experience with both. On top of that, you will gain substantial additional mass with the aluminum body-if it's not in the ebay ad, you should ask Isokinetic what that thing weighs.

The stock cartridge in that body will be very, very good and it is a perfect match with the 750D. When the stylus expires (or earlier if you choose) you can send it off to Soundsmith or Expert Stylus for a line contact retip and you will have a cartridge that is competitive with those costing serious multiples of the money that you will have invested in it.

As a frame of reference, I'm running a 103R in an ebony body that has been retipped by Soundsmith with a ruby cantiliver and line contact stylus. My arm is a 750D with a custom ebony/carbon fibre headshell and I also have an additional 4.5 gram stainless headshell weight (dirt cheap to have machined if you want to go that route or you could use the 3 gram VPI stainless headshell weight, also very cheap).

[Marco]

Hi Shuggs,

My view regarding the DL-103 is that it's a real enthusiast's device and only gives of its best when those with the patience (and funds) to optimise it, do so - it's really not a project to take on 'half-heartedly'....

The most important thing to remember is that you categorically will not get it to sound as its best without a suitable SUT, and in the absence of anything I know that's as good as it or better, that means an A23, which costs £450.

You could certainly take a punt on a DL-103 and use it with the (excellent) Isokinetik cartridge stabiliser, which you will need with the Jelco headshell, and if you don't like it sell it on without too much loss, but don't expect it to sound like you heard it at mine - the combination of the Croft valve phono stage and A23 played a big part in the type of sound you experienced :)

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

It will work better with a bit of additional mass. IMO, the Isokinetic body is the way to go as opposed to the stabiliser. While you might find the odd person who prefers a nude 103/103R to one in a wood or aluminum body, the bodies are preferred pretty overwhelmingly by anyone with experience with both. On top of that, you will gain substantial additional mass with the aluminum body-if it's not in the ebay ad, you should ask Isokinetic what that thing weighs.

The stock cartridge in that body will be very, very good and it is a perfect match with the 750D. When the stylus expires (or earlier if you choose) you can send it off to Soundsmith or Expert Stylus for a line contact retip and you will have a cartridge that is competitive with those costing serious multiples of the money that you will have invested in it.

As a frame of reference, I'm running a 103R in an ebony body that has been retipped by Soundsmith with a ruby cantiliver and line contact stylus. My arm is a 750D with a custom ebony/carbon fibre headshell and I also have an additional 4.5 gram stainless headshell weight (dirt cheap to have machined if you want to go that route or you could use the 3 gram VPI stainless headshell weight, also very cheap).

Thank you for that - most helpful. Bearing in mind what you like about the Denon, have you ever tried a Grado in your 750D?


Hi Shuggs,

My view regarding the DL-103 is that it's a real enthusiast's device and only gives of its best when those with the patience (and funds) to optimise it, do so - it's really not a project to take on 'half-heartedly'....

The most important thing to remember is that you categorically will not get it to sound as its best without a suitable SUT, and in the absence of anything I know that's as good as it or better, that means an A23, which costs £450.

You could certainly take a punt on a DL-103 and use it with the (excellent) Isokinetik cartridge stabiliser, which you will need with the Jelco headshell, and if you don't like it sell it on without too much loss, but don't expect it to sound like you heard it at mine - the combination of the Croft valve phono stage and A23 played a big part in the type of sound you experienced :)

Marco.

I do understand all of that, but do understand that I do not intend to spend much here, certainly not as much as a DL-103R, although SUTs may come into play later.

Taking your comments along with Blake's, I think the way forward is to get a boggo 103 and the stabiliser, and take it from there. I would like to garner some wider comments about Grados, though. Are they really 'dull, dull' as Dave notes above?

[jonners]

I would second Blake's preference for the Al body over the stabiliser, and not only sound-wise: The naked 103 is very vulnerable, as I know to my cost....:oops:
Regarding the headshell, the Jelco and Sumiko look pretty well identical to me.

[blake]

Sorry Shuggie. No experience with Grados here. My last two cartridges were Ortofon MC 20 Super and Koetsu Black but they were both used in a different arm and not the 750D.

[Hypnotoad]

Grado carts have a distinct sound to them.

Plump, lush, full, liquid are words that describe the Grado sound, especially in the midrange section. Voices are extremely smooth.

On the other hand until you get high up in the food chain the Grado's lack inner detail, they tend to smooth over everything taking off the rough edges but at the cost of detail.

You either love or hate the Grado sound, I am listening to a cheap Grado Blue as I type this in my bedroom system and it's very inviting. No match for my Benz Micro Ace in my main system but nice to listen to.

One word of warning about Grado's they are unshielded and produce hum in tables that have AC motors, a lot of belt drives do. No problems with Technics and other direct drives with DC motors though.