View Full Version : On the demise of the British pub
The British 'pub' is unique to the UK. Nothing like it exist anywhere else in the world. Some French bars come close, but there is nothing quite like a British pub.
Sad then to learn that pubs are closing down in the UK at the rate of two a week (if not more). There are many reasons why this might be: anti-smoking legislation; the availability of cheap booze from supermarkets; attempts by landlords to make the pub 'family friendly', essentially turning them into bland, characterless bistros, or purchase by management groups, and in doing so, imposing a 'homogenisation' in an attempt to impart the corporate identity.
But what of a wonderful-looking. traditional city pub such as the 'Black Lion' in Kilburn, London: http://www.blacklionguesthouse.com/gallery/
Grade II listed; frosted glass widows, beautiful ceiling mouldings, leather upholstery, books to read on the window sills .....
So what's not to like? Well many things: only a limited choice of largely indifferent beers, that are not particularly well kept; adequate but expensive food; bar staff that mean well, but don't know much about the ales on offer, and most importantly - selling beer for an average of £4.50 a pint! (The latter is not just 'London prices'; I have drunk better beer in the same London borough for far less.)
I wonder how long this pub will last?
Love the interior of that pub, Barry! Therefore. it deserves to be so much better, food and drink-wise... I've got many views on this, which I'll post later, but needless to say, apart from what you mention (all of which is significant), the blackboard with 'Happy Hour' written on it, in such an establishment, for me says it all! :rolleyes:
Like I've said many times before, most folks these days value QUANTITY rather more than quality, and everything is driven by price.
Unless the great British public start learning to be more discerning about what they put into their mouths, both liquid and food orientated, and put their hands into their pockets and be more willing to pay for nice things, then overall standards will not rise.
I of course appreciate that the prices that this pub is charging aren't cheap, but the point is whatever profit is being made isn't being reinvested in the right way! The big problem these days is too many such businesses are simply money-making exercises, run by folk with no passion or love for what they're doing, and that's a recipe always ultimately doomed to failure.
More later!:cool:
Marco.
Illegal drinking dens are the way forward. Some bloke sets up a micro brewery, starts flogging it in the front of house, no rules or regs, no duty or tax. Sort of how pubs originally started. We'll just do it all over again.
Drink is the spawn of the devil. [emoji13]
Drink is the spawn of the devil. [emoji13]
Says one who has a dozen or more fine malts in his drinks cupboard! ;)
Just finding out his weak spot. Lol
Crackles
06-08-2018, 21:14
£4.50 a pint in London? Many places in central Manchester are now £5 a pint so I don't think £4.50 is that expensive, especially for London.
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Not had a drink for long time. In a pub it's Years as it's way too dear.
£4.50 a pint in London? Many places in central Manchester are now £5 a pint so I don't think £4.50 is that expensive, especially for London.
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Well I'm used to buying decent, well kept beer for no more than £3.30 a pint. Of course there are places that charge more, but even then the beer is good and well served. My complaint was spending a lot on indifferent ale.
Sherwood
06-08-2018, 21:34
The British 'pub' is unique to the UK. Nothing like it exist anywhere else in the world. Some French bars come close, but there is nothing quite like a British pub.
Sad then to learn that pubs are closing down in the UK at the rate of two a week (if not more). There are many reasons why this might be: anti-smoking legislation; the availability of cheap booze from supermarkets; attempts by landlords to make the pub 'family friendly', essentially turning them into bland, characterless bistros, or purchase by management groups, and in doing so, imposing a 'homogenisation' in an attempt to impart the corporate identity.
But what of a wonderful-looking. traditional city pub such as the 'Black Lion' in Kilburn, London: http://www.blacklionguesthouse.com/gallery/
Grade II listed; frosted glass widows, beautiful ceiling mouldings, leather upholstery, books to read on the window sills .....
So what's not to like? Well many things: only a limited choice of largely indifferent beers, that are not particularly well kept; adequate but expensive food; bar staff that mean well, but don't know much about the ales on offer, and most importantly - selling beer for an average of £4.50 a pint! (The latter is not just 'London prices'; I have drunk better beer in the same London borough for far less.)
I wonder how long this pub will last?
What about the Irish pub? I don't know how they are these days, but in the last millenium they could be distinguished from the British pub as follows:
a) most bar staff had a proper training in cellar craft and knew how to look after their beers and porters.
b) pubs were a place, by and large, to socialise (i.e. to talk to other human beings).
c) many pubs had staff who would take your order and bring it to you at your table rather than you having to queue up at the bar.
d) many pubs had music but it was often live and informal.
I stopped going to British pubs regularly in the 90s. The main reasons were smokers, fruit machines, and overly loud tvs and jukeboxes. Oh, and crappy overpriced beer too!
Well I'm used to buying decent, well kept beer for no more than £3.30 a pint. Of course there are places that charge more, but even then the beer is good and well served. My complaint was spending a lot on indifferent ale.
It's not well kept because basically they don't give a shit, and clearly aren't targeting regulars, who would drive up standards, but simply tourists and passers by. If it weren't in the middle of a city, it wouldn't last a minute! As I said, no love...
Marco.
What about the Irish pub? I don't know how they are these days, but in the last millenium they could be distinguished from the British pub as follows:
a) most bar staff had a proper training in cellar craft and knew how to look after their beers and porters.
b) pubs were a place, by and large, to socialise (i.e. to talk to other human beings).
c) many pubs had staff who would take your order and bring it to you at your table rather than you having to queue up at the bar.
d) many pubs had music but it was often live and informal.
I stopped going to British pubs regularly in the 90s. The main reasons were smokers, fruit machines, and overly loud tvs and jukeboxes. Oh, and crappy overpriced beer too!
Too true. Good Irish pubs especially in Eire are superb
What about the Irish pub? I don't know how they are these days, but in the last millenium they could be distinguished from the British pub as follows:
a) most bar staff had a proper training in cellar craft and knew how to look after their beers and porters.
b) pubs were a place, by and large, to socialise (i.e. to talk to other human beings).
c) many pubs had staff who would take your order and bring it to you at your table rather than you having to queue up at the bar.
d) many pubs had music but it was often live and informal.
I stopped going to British pubs regularly in the 90s. The main reasons were smokers, fruit machines, and overly loud tvs and jukeboxes. Oh, and crappy overpriced beer too!
With the exception of (c), pubs in Britain used to be like that (based on my experience of pubs in Bristol, in Somerset, in Kent, in Lincolnshire, in North Wales, and in Edinburgh, London and Manchester).
I don't know when pubs became invaded by overloud juke boxes, large flat screen TVs and 'theme nights', all IMO to their detriment, but I think that has happened in the last ten years or so. Before then, one could go into a pub and have a good conversation with a total stranger on about just about any subject you liked; and whilst it could become 'lively' it never became rancorous.
Sherwood
06-08-2018, 22:01
With the exception of (c), pubs in Britain used to be like that (based on my experience of pubs in Bristol, in Somerset, in Kent, in Lincolnshire, in North Wales, and in Edinburgh, London and Manchester).
I don't know when pubs became invaded by overloud juke boxes, large flat screen TVs and 'theme nights', all IMO to their detriment, but I think that has happened in the last ten years or so. Before then, one could go into a pub and have a good conversation with a total stranger on about just about any subject you liked; and whilst it could become 'lively' it never became rancorous.
I was born and grew up in central London and I can remember this trend starting in the 70s. The decline was led by the widespread adoption of fruit machines and gaming machines, not least the likes of Space Invaders, Meteorites, and Donkey Kong. It was hastened by a lack of quality assurance and basic customer service as many pubs could rely on passing trade rather than a faithful clientele. I think the competition from supermarkets, and more home entertainment options were also killer blows. I experienced a temporary respite from this decline when I was in Yorkshire doing postgrad studies in the mid 80s, although it took a while to adjust to Tetleys after Fullers!
Geoff
Sherwood
06-08-2018, 22:19
By way of balance, I should add that there are still a few pubs that I enjoy going to. One of these is the Greystones in Sheffield. http://www.mygreystones.co.uk/
It is a bit of a hike for me, nearly an hour each way by car, but it is a live music venue which attracts some really good performers. Ticket prices are typically around £10 to £15 in a very intimate venue.
The pub serves really good locally brewed Thornbridge beers (Jaipur IPA is a favourite) but I have to content myself with their 2 pint cardboard takeaways because of the drive home.
There are few live sessions during the summer months, but for most of the year there is a very busy live programme.
Geoff
There are loads of good pubs in Sheffield.
Sherwood
06-08-2018, 23:14
There are loads of good pubs in Sheffield.
In my younger days (mid 1980s) I spent a lot of time in Sheffield providing technical support to the then Trent Regional Health Authority. I used to go to the Leadmill a lot for its great jazz music and very good real ales. I used to stay up in Fullwood during the week. Very beautiful countryside on the edge of the Peak District.
Geoff
Crackles
07-08-2018, 04:50
Well I'm used to buying decent, well kept beer for no more than £3.30 a pint. Of course there are places that charge more, but even then the beer is good and well served. My complaint was spending a lot on indifferent ale.Yeah fair enough, don't disagree. Was just surprised at £4.50 in London because their beer has always been notoriously dearer than the north.
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Minstrel SE
07-08-2018, 08:25
I feel some pubs get it right and some just dont. Some are just weird and very clickey for a few locals. I cant put my finger on it...you know what I mean...this pubs a bit shit and I wonder why they are still open. Like the (lazy) owners dont quite know what to do with it or how to play to any strengths
I feel that many pubs deserve to close down. Spoons has the cheapest beer but its like drinking in a school hall
I feel some pubs get it right and some just dont. Some are just weird and very clickey for a few locals. I cant put my finger on it...you know what I mean...this pubs a bit shit and I wonder why they are still open. Like the (lazy) owners dont quite know what to do with it or how to play to any strengths
I feel that many pubs deserve to close down. Spoons has the cheapest beer but its like drinking in a school hall
pubs are like forums. need to be run well for them to thrive.;)
I feel that many pubs deserve to close down. Spoons has the cheapest beer but its like drinking in a school hall
Exactly, so it's a completely soulless experience, and the exact OPPOSITE of what I'm looking for in a pub. Plus, there's a completely uninspiring choice of beers (all the boring and unimaginative 'usual suspects'), not particularly treated well, which completely turns me off, and so I couldn't give a monkeys how cheap it is, you won't ever see me in such places!
Marco.
pubs are like forums. need to be run well for them to thrive...
Spot on, Grant, and in that respect they need to be run by folks with passion and enthusiasm for that they're doing. It also helps if they have an outgoing personality, and are not simply bland, boring 'non-entities';)
Some of the 'zombies' you see, in that respect, working behind bars, makes you wonder why on earth they're there in the first place, as they clearly have no passion or enthusiasm for what they're doing!:rolleyes:
Marco.
I rarely go to pubs these days, but not all pubs in the 'good old days' were much cop. Many many years ago, when I lived in That London, there was a pub just up the road from where I lived, but I never went there, as I preferred to drink either in Central London, or in Blackheath, which wasn't too far to get to and was a 'nicer' area than my immediate locality. One evening, when it was pissing down with rain, I decided to give it a try, and went in there with a couple of mates. No-one else in the pub was much under sixty, and they all stared at us silently as we went in, and continued to stare at us silently until we finished our drinks and went somewhere more hospitable. Also, on a freezing cold November night, the only heating was a one-bar electric fire.
Another time, we were in Brixton, visiting a friend's brother. We asked if there were any good pubs nearby, as none of the rest of us knew the place. He said 'Let's go to my local, then'. He said he's buy the first round, and asked for our orders. At that time I mostly drank 'shorts', so I said I'd have a vodka and orange. 'Not in this pub you won't' he said. 'You'd better have what I'm having; a pint of Guinness.' It was only then I realised that everyone else in the pub had Irish accents, and that the Irish tricolour was hanging up behind the bar
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 13:34
I rarely go to pubs these days, but not all pubs in the 'good old days' were much cop. Many many years ago, when I lived in That London, there was a pub just up the road from where I lived, but I never went there, as I preferred to drink either in Central London, or in Blackheath, which wasn't too far to get to and was a 'nicer' area than my immediate locality. One evening, when it was pissing down with rain, I decided to give it a try, and went in there with a couple of mates. No-one else in the pub was much under sixty, and they all stared at us silently as we went in, and continued to stare at us silently until we finished our drinks and went somewhere more hospitable. Also, on a freezing cold November night, the only heating was a one-bar electric fire.
Another time, we were in Brixton, visiting a friend's brother. We asked if there were any good pubs nearby, as none of the rest of us knew the place. He said 'Let's go to my local, then'. He said he's buy the first round, and asked for our orders. At that time I mostly drank 'shorts', so I said I'd have a vodka and orange. 'Not in this pub you won't' he said. 'You'd better have what I'm having; a pint of Guinness.' It was only then I realised that everyone else in the pub had Irish accents, and that the Irish tricolour was hanging up behind the bar
.... and your point is? :scratch:
The Black Adder
07-08-2018, 13:54
I've lived next door to a village pub.
The landlords that Marston's got in to run it were simply conned in to running it by the brewery. They told them that the pub turns over well in excess of £500,000 per annum.
The landlord of the most successful pub down the street simply laughed at it. No way, but that's Marston's for you.
The people who took it over were people who seemed like loners to couples with 3 week old babies. None of them had a clue what to do, and none of them had passion to run it.
In the end a guy ran it and 6 months later he ran out of credit with Marston's and they stopped delivering. The pub shut and he started doing drugs instead... he was basically squatting in there for a year as they couldn't evict him.
So... to me the brewery is just as at fault for the closures of local pubs... they drive a hard bargain, they con people in to running a business and then just leave them if it all goes wrong.
Seen it happen so many times and people wonder why they shut.
.... and your point is? :scratch:
Dunno... If you're a young guy (as I suspect Joe was at the time), you might not want to drink in an old man's pub, especially one full of unsociable morons?
;)
Marco.
I've lived next door to a village pub.
The landlords that Marston's got in to run it were simply conned in to running it by the brewery. They told them that the pub turns over well in excess of £500,000 per annum.
The landlord of the most successful pub down the street simply laughed at it. No way, but that's Marston's for you.
The people who took it over were people who seemed like loners to couples with 3 week old babies. None of them had a clue what to do, and none of them had passion to run it.
In the end a guy ran it and 6 months later he ran out of credit with Marston's and they stopped delivering. The pub shut and he started doing drugs instead... he was basically squatting in there for a year as they couldn't evict him.
So... to me the brewery is just as at fault for the closures of local pubs... they drive a hard bargain, they con people in to running a business and then just leave them if it all goes wrong.
Seen it happen so many times and people wonder why they shut.
Excellent point, Jo, and too true. However, loners and such like (anyone who isn't switched on enough), shouldn't be given the job in the first place.
For me, unless you have a friendly, outgoing and gregarious personality, know how to look after yourself and aren't easily intimidated, are 100% focussed on making the pub concerned a success, and have the time, willingness to work like a dog, and business acumen necessary for that to happen, then forget all about running a pub...
Being a pub landlord simply isn't for social misfits, shy little wallflowers, or couples who are 'nappied up to the max'. It's for people who are devoted/dedicated to the cause, and willing to make it their life's main purpose, until such times as that's no longer necessary. Otherwise, forget it!
Marco.
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 14:13
Dunno... If you're a young guy (as I suspect Joe was at the time), you might not want to drink in an old man's pub, especially one full of unsociable morons?
;)
Marco.
If I were not in a generous mood I would suggest his post is both ageist and racist. What flag would you expect to see in an Irish pub in London and what accent would you expect Irish drinkers to have. If I were in an Irish pub, I would probably be drinking Guinness on the assumption that they had a trained cellar man who knew how to manage it. The suggestion that an Irish barman would be irritated by someone ordering spirits is ridiculous. I also doubt if any clientele in any London pub would pay any attention to strangers coming in the door unless they were causing a ruckus. This sounds more like some 1960s Hammer Horror scene set in Transylvania than the London I grew up in.
Geoff
If I were in an Irish pub, I would probably be drinking Guinness on the assumption that they had a trained cellar man who knew how to manage it. The suggestion that an Irish barman would be irritated by someone ordering spirits is ridiculous. I also doubt if any clientele in any London pub would pay any attention to strangers coming in the door unless they were causing a ruckus. This sounds more like some 1960s Hammer Horror scene set in Transylvania than the London I grew up in.
Well, firstly I don't think Joe's lying, because he's not the type, so I don't doubt what he said happened. I've also experienced the same thing myself, although not in London. The UK is full of rather cliquey little pubs, often located in small towns or villages and housing estates, where if your face isn't known, then the regulars stare and wonder who you are. That's not at all unusual.
Secondly, I don't like Guinness, so no matter what the barman thought, I'd insist on drinking what *I* wanted to drink, providing it was available, and if it was a vodka and orange, then that's what I'd be having, or I'd be out the door pronto, and drinking elsewhere!;)
No-one tells me what I can or cannot drink in a free country.
Marco.
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 14:30
Well, firstly I don't think Joe's lying, because he's not the type, so I don't doubt what he said happened. I've also experienced the same thing myself, although not in London. The UK is full of rather cliquey little pubs, often located in small towns or villages and housing estates, where if your face isn't known, then the regulars stare and wonder who you are. That's not at all unusual.
Secondly, I don't like Guinness, so no matter what the barman thought, I'd insist on drinking what *I* wanted to drink, providing it was available, and if it was a vodka and orange, then that's what I'd be having, or I'd be out the door pronto!;)
No-one tells me what I can or cannot drink in a free country.
Marco.
Perhaps his recollection is faulty. No pub in London would give a monkey's what a customer ordered and vodka and orange is hardly exotic.
I do like Guinness but only ever drink it in pubs with properly trained bar staff.
I don't know of any London pub that I frequented that would notice what planet a customer came from let alone pay attention to their age. I do know of many pubs though that would have unruly, loud or rude customers out on their ears in an instant.
Seems to me that this post says more about Jo and the people he was with than the pub in question.
Geoff
Well, I know plenty, in the likes of Glasgow, where what Joe's described is pretty accurate, so I doubt his recollection is faulty.
Slightly strange (and defensive) attitude you've adopted on this topic, Geoff, as if for whatever reason, you've taken Joe's remarks as some sort of personal affront... :scratch:
Marco.
Excellent point, Jo, and too true. However, loners and such like (anyone who isn't switched on enough), shouldn't be given the job in the first place.
For me, unless you have a friendly, outgoing and gregarious personality, know how to look after yourself and aren't easily intimidated, are 100% focussed on making the pub concerned a success, and have the time, willingness to work like a dog, and business acumen necessary for that to happen, then forget all about running a pub...
Being a pub landlord simply isn't for social misfits, shy little wallflowers, or couples who are 'nappied up to the max'. It's for people who are devoted/dedicated to the cause, and willing to make it their life's main purpose, until such times as that's no longer necessary. Otherwise, forget it!
In my experience the best pubs are usually 'Free Houses' run by their owner who also lives on the premises. Next best is a tenant landlord, and the worse is a pub run by a manager appointed by the brewery who own the premises.
There are exceptions of course. One of my locals is part of the Ember Inns group, so the décor follows corporate identity, but being an old premise (part of it dates back to the 16th century, and it is said to be haunted), is still cosy and has some character. The bar staff are young and not particularly experienced, but more importantly the 'guest' draught beers on offer are all interesting, tasty and well-kept.
In the 70s I was big big beer drinker and there were lots of pubs in the area doing good real ale. I was always out drinking and it seemed far better value than it does these days. It probably wasn't though. maybe I was just more sociable then and was not so worried about the style or decor of the pub. What bugs me these days is the price of all drinks in pubs or restaurants. Soft drink prices are scandalous (yea, yea I know that these places have to make a profit) but it is taking the piss. Wine...£5 - £6 for a "large" glass of wine (err not that large is it) Mrs Puffin doesn't really drink so it is not worth having a bottle, but even then the mark-up is no better. Food....such variable quality even if you go regularly, sometimes great, sometimes shit....but still the same price:D
Maybe it boils down to perceived value for money...or how much you want to spend, or have available to spend. My son earns megabucks and is often eating out which to him is probably like pocket money. If something is not good value for money then it is not for me now. Have some pubs been the author of their own misfortune?
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 14:41
Well, I know plenty, in the likes of Glasgow, where what Joe's described is pretty accurate, so I doubt his recollection is faulty.
Slightly strange (and defensive) attitude you've adopted on this topic, Geoff, as if for whatever reason, you seem to have taken Joe's remarks as some sort of personal affront... :scratch:
Marco.
Coming from an Irish family might have something to do with it. I get somewhat irritated by stereotypical cliches of the Irish and Irish pubs. I am sure that there are pubs in Glasgow where casual visitors are not welcomed but he was referring to London. In London, most pubs rely on passing trade and strangers always were and remain the norm.
Geoff
Coming from an Irish family might have something to do with it. I get somewhat irritated by stereotypical cliches of the Irish and Irish pubs. I am sure that there are pubs in Glasgow where casual visitors are not welcomed but he was referring to London. In London, most pubs rely on passing trade and strangers always were and remain the norm.
Geoff
to be sure, to be sure ;):D
The Black Adder
07-08-2018, 14:49
I agree, Marco.
Landlords should be passionately involved in the pub game.
Thing is, some breweries like Marston's are just pulling the wool over peoples eyes... getting people to whack a deposit down and tell them it's going to make a living. Then, after the initial 6 months of discounted beer they whack it up to full and basically leave them to it. Even if it's their first pub.
I've had many conversations with landlords who were close to collapse and in tears because what they were told was far from the truth.
True, they shouldn't have done it if they weren't cut out for it and that's a fact but the breweries don't help matters before or after the case.
It was truly awful..
In my experience the best pubs are usually 'Free Houses' run by their owner who also lives on the premises. Next best is a tenant landlord, and the worse is a pub run by a manager appointed by the brewery who own the premises.
Totally agree, and it's the first of the types we usually go to. However, for a pub to attract me it *must* have most, or preferably all, of the following:
1) Great selection of local ales, all well kept, same with single-malt whiskies, plus whatever other forms of alcohol are offered, served by knowledgeable and convivial hosts.
2) Great food, made using fresh locally-sourced produce, served by the same as above, also cooked by someone the same, with flare/imagination and a real passion for food.
3) Is *spotlessly clean throughout*.
4) Unfailingly customer-focussed, offering superb service, in all respects.
5) Has an attractive country location, or a town centre one, in a nice part of town.
6) The clientele have some class/manners and know how to behave, which is strictly enforced otherwise by the management.
7) Children are only allowed *if* their parents are capable of controlling/entertaining them, without that onus being put on the pub, and they are generally well-behaved.
8) Same applies (the relevant bit) to dogs.
9) Has a pleasant, well-kept beer garden, to facilitate outdoor drinking, within the grounds of the pub, during summer months.
10) Cosy, non-rowdy atmosphere with attractive and tasteful decor, which is neither old-fashioned or 'modern', in the wrong way. And not so busy that you can't find a seat!
No3 is a MUST. The last bit in bold I'll be discussing more later, which is something you touched on before.
Marco.
Coming from an Irish family might have something to do with it. I get somewhat irritated by stereotypical cliches of the Irish and Irish pubs. I am sure that there are pubs in Glasgow where casual visitors are not welcomed but he was referring to London. In London, most pubs rely on passing trade and strangers always were and remain the norm.
As for the first bit, fair enough (I could sense the irritation in you). In terms of the latter, I shouldn't imagine that'd be the case in the east end, in some of the 'locals' there.
Oh, and trust me, Glasgow pubs also get their fair share of strangers and passing trade - it's not some hillbilly place in the middle of nowhere!;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
07-08-2018, 15:16
Have any of you actually read any company reports of the pubs your discussing? The pub industry is NOT in decline.
Pigmy Pony
07-08-2018, 15:20
Spot on Josie, breweries like Marston's really do take the piss...
A £500,000 turnover is entirely feasible in a busy pub, but what they're not saying is that soon the price of beers from them will be increased to the point where they'd be lucky to make more than a few pence on each pint, and they're not allowed to shop around. That paltry mark up means that they're probably making about £40,000 a year, and then they have heating and staff to pay, and I'm sure there'll be other costs too.
I could never be persuaded to take on a pub, not even if it came with a free nest of tables.
There are a couple of pubs that have started up in Chorley which I believe are called 'micro pubs', which just look like corner shops which have been converted. I don't know what the ins and outs of these are regarding licensing etc., but I'll find out and report back.
As for the first bit, fair enough (I could sense the irritation in you). In terms of the latter, I shouldn't imagine that'd be the case in the east end, in some of the 'locals' there.
Oh, and trust me, Glasgow pubs also get their fair share of strangers and passing trade - it's not some hillbilly place in the middle of nowhere!;)
Marco.
ha, some bits of glasgae are very hillbilly :eek: Deliverance-esque isnt the word :ner:
If I were not in a generous mood I would suggest his post is both ageist and racist. What flag would you expect to see in an Irish pub in London and what accent would you expect Irish drinkers to have. If I were in an Irish pub, I would probably be drinking Guinness on the assumption that they had a trained cellar man who knew how to manage it. The suggestion that an Irish barman would be irritated by someone ordering spirits is ridiculous. I also doubt if any clientele in any London pub would pay any attention to strangers coming in the door unless they were causing a ruckus. This sounds more like some 1960s Hammer Horror scene set in Transylvania than the London I grew up in.
Geoff
Well, re the pub in Brixton, firstly I didn't know it was an Irish pub, (as I said I was unfamiliar with the area) secondly I'm part Irish myself, so my remarks can only be partly racist. The remark about not ordering shorts may actually have been a joke that I didn't get. Re the pub in the first anecdote, I and my mates were in our early 20s. It wasn't a Central London pub, where, as you say, strangers and passing trade would be the norm; it was in a (then) run-down part of East Greenwich, bordering on Charlton. In those days, 40 years or so ago, parts of London were very parochial/insular.
Lol, yes, but I'm talking about the area around the centre, especially the Merchant City. Have you been there recently? It's seriously thriving (no shortage of money being spent) and distinctly cosmopolitan in atmosphere/vibe:)
In terms of "hillbilly', I'm that sure some parts of the outskirts of London are similar!
Marco.
Lol, yes, but I'm talking about the area around the town centre, especially the Merchant City. Have you been there recently? It's seriously thriving (no shortage of money being spent) and distinctly cosmopolitan in atmosphere/vibe:)
In terms of "hillbilly', I'm that sure some parts of the outskirts of London are similar!
Marco.
yup, just my joke... glasgow city centre is pretty good, and a match for most cities. not been for a while but my brother used to go regularly until recently.
hifi_dave
07-08-2018, 17:06
We are fortunate here in NW Essex and Suffolk as there is an excellent pub in almost every village. We are spoilt for choice.
Nearly all of my 'locals' closed, quite a good thing when they're all like this
http://www.fancyapint.com/Pub/london/alderman/2538
(strangely enough this one's still open..)
Nearly all of my 'locals' closed, quite a good thing when they're all like this
http://www.fancyapint.com/Pub/london/alderman/2538
(strangely enough this one's still open..)
The bloke who reviewed it talks like he's never been in a pub in his life.
As far as taking care of Guinness is concerned you don't have to do anything. It comes in a keg same as the lagers and you just rip the sticker off and plug in. So it makes no difference if the barman is Irish or Chinese.
The bloke who reviewed it talks like he's never been in a pub in his life.
Spent a lot of time in my late teens at my Uncle's pub in Bow, it was a little rough round the edges but was like the Ritz compared with this s**thole.
This is our main 'local', approx 1.5m walking distance from our front door (there's a slideshow, for pics, or use the cursor keys to scroll forwards or backwards):
http://www.brunningandprice.co.uk/pantyrochain/
Beautiful location, especially during the summer months, together with a superb selection of real ales and food!
Or 500 yards away, there's a reasonably ok Ember Inn (with decent food and real ales): https://www.emberinns.co.uk/nationalsearch/wales/the-acton-park-wrexham?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=gmb#
There is also a pub literally across the other side of our fence, but the least said about that the better...:rolleyes:
Marco.
Audio Al
07-08-2018, 17:52
Drink driving laws and smoking ban = Death of pubs
I like dive. As long as the ale is drinkable I prefer them to posh pubs. Although I don't go in any pubs anymore because of the smoking ban.
The breweries are mainly to blame. Unless you are a fee house you have to buy everything from them and they are a right rip off. Spirits cost more then they do in the supermarket and you're only making pennies on a pint of beer. We used to buy spirits from the Spa next door and decant them into the optic bottle. You still had to buy some from the brewery though or they would get suspicious.
I like dive. As long as the ale is drinkable I prefer them to posh pubs.
Define "posh pub". Is it anything that isn't a dive?;)
Marco.
Drink driving laws and smoking ban = Death of pubs
True, but I'm not a big drinker, so a pint and a half does me, along with a meal, and I'm well under the limit on that. Yes, I carry a personal breathalyser in the car!:)
Marco.
'Posh Pub' - Clean, tidy, pictures on the walls, well-groomed staff and clientele, does food, maybe has two of those little trees in boxes outside the entrance.
Lol... I call that 'normal':)
'Posh' is a 5-star country house hotel, or such like.
Marco.
walpurgis
07-08-2018, 18:04
I like dive. As long as the ale is drinkable I prefer them to posh pubs
So do I. They tend to be relaxed and friendly.
My favourite is The New Inn in Mabe, near Penryn, Cornwall. Great place. A bit off the beaten track and no pretentions whatsoever. Good grub too.
So do I. They tend to be relaxed and friendly.
So are the "posh" [by Martin's definition] pubs we got to, none of which are pretentious, either;)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
07-08-2018, 18:17
I like dive. As long as the ale is drinkable I prefer them to posh pubs. Although I don't go in any pubs anymore because of the smoking ban.
The breweries are mainly to blame. Unless you are a fee house you have to buy everything from them and they are a right rip off. Spirits cost more then they do in the supermarket and you're only making pennies on a pint of beer. We used to buy spirits from the Spa next door and decant them into the optic bottle. You still had to buy some from the brewery though or they would get suspicious.
Must be a Staffordshire thing. Go to a spa round here and all you can get is fruit smoothie or some carrot juice. :(
In Preston, and probably everywhere else, most of the casualties are the small town pubs. Often you will pass one to find some geezer stood in the doorway having a smoke because there's nowhere else for him to go.
Even I, as a smoker, find that smoke free pubs are a nicer place to be, but I got wound up when I heard of the mardy non smoking fascists complaining that they have to run the gauntlet of smoke when entering or leaving the pub. You got your own way with the ban, what do you want, jam on it?
Even I, as a smoker, find that smoke free pubs are a nicer place to be, but I got wound up when I heard of the mardy non smoking fascists complaining that they have to run the gauntlet of smoke when entering or leaving the pub. You got your own way with the ban, what do you want, jam on it?
Don't get me started man.
Don't get me started man.
Well... You know my views on this subject.
If the government had provided some financial help to landlords, to pay for proper segregation inside their premises, between smokers and non-smokers, instead of imposing an (unfair and unimaginative) outright ban, then smokers wouldn't have been forced to stand outside entrances to pubs, exercising their human right, thus simultaneously preventing the human right of non-smokers, to breathe cigarette smoke-free air, on the way in.
Put yourself in the position, for example, of a non-smoking female, having to plough her way through groups of male smokers, all ganged up at the entrance to a pub, before she can enter the premises. It's rather unpleasant and intimidating. Del hates it. And it wouldn't have been necessary if the government had actually put some proper thought into solving the matter, instead of thoughtlessly choosing the path of least resistance.
Had proper segregation been implemented, everyone would've been inside!
Marco.
Most pubs have at least 2 rooms. You make one smoking and one none smoking. If you only have one room then you have to be no-smoking. Problem solved, costs nothing, everyone is happy.
I'd have no objection to that:)
The point is, it's quicker and easier for idiotic self-serving governments simply to impose outright bans, than actually *think* about and deal with problems properly!!
Marco.
The ban was based on ideological reasons, not practical considerations. Which is also why it makes no sense.
Beobloke
07-08-2018, 19:46
Put yourself in the position, for example, of a non-smoking female, having to plough her way through groups of male smokers, all ganged up at the entrance to a pub, before she can enter the premises. It's rather unpleasant and intimidating. Del hates it. And it wouldn't have been necessary if the government had actually put some proper thought into solving the matter, instead of thoughtlessly choosing the path of least resistance.
Had proper segregation been implemented, everyone would've been inside!
Marco.
Surely if the smokers are ganged up outside the entrance, then they're just being selfish, as it should be obvious that non-smokers would like to go in and out without getting poisoned?
Well, I guess human nature dictates that there will be selfish arses among some smokers, just the same as there are among non-smokers. I agree, however, that it's inconsiderate of them to all gather right outside a pub entrance.
But even if they go to the side of that, the effect is the same, so where else should they smoke instead?
Marco.
Beobloke
07-08-2018, 19:55
But even if they go to the side of that, the effect is the same, so where else should they go to smoke instead?
Marco.
Home!
Lol... Come on, be fair.
Marco.
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 19:57
True, but I'm not a big drinker, so a pint and a half does me, along with a meal, and I'm well under the limit on that. Yes, I carry a personal breathalyser in the car!:)
Marco.
I completely stopped drinking (any alcohol) and driving when a friend's daughter was killed instantly by a drunken driver who mounted the pavement, leaving two young children without a mother.
It is very dangerous to assume that a given quantity of alcohol will dissipate in the bloodstream at a predictable rate or that the effects of a given quantity of alcohol on reaction time is predictable and constant.
Geoff
would think you would be over or very near with 1 pint now, certainly in Scotland.
jollyfix
07-08-2018, 20:01
I am more of a dive person, posh pubs , nah. Good beer, clean glasses , a place where if you walk in wearing work clothes ( site ) no one would batter an eye.
As for a woman having to plough her way through groups of male smokers, all ganged up at the entrance to a pub, before she can enter the premises being unpleasant and intimidating. Unpleasant due to the smell, for many yes. What about at the bar if there are a few guys waiting to get served, maybe for some women that also intimidaing? blokes sat by the entrance to the ladies loo.. etc.. I think that person would be intimidated no matter what. All the women i know would not give two hoots, go to a pub on their own, talk to anybody, but thats them and i can understand not everyone's the same.
One lady i know , many years ago used to have a strip of red LED mini lights on the crotch of her black jeans if a bloke she liked walked passed her going to the bar she would open her legs and light up the strip, it would flash.
Food pubs and drinking pubs, i like drinking pubs.. There are Family pubs too, but i prefer the pubs parents would never take children to.
Back in the day, a cheese toastie, was seen as posh if served at the bar.. The only reason to eat was to carry on drinking.. the types of pubs where the door would open and a horse would come in , landlord would serve it a pint, a guy would drive his bike into the pub.. that was my local, full of characters , no one would tut ,tut, never any trouble.. mix of all sorts.
So many pubs local to me are now mini tesco's and the like. Still some great proper pubs around.
I completely stopped drinking (any alcohol) and driving when a friend's daughter was killed instantly by a drunken driver who mounted the pavement, leaving two young children without a mother.
It is very dangerous to assume that a given quantity of alcohol will dissipate in the bloodstream at a predictable rate or that the effects of a given quantity of alcohol on reaction time is predictable and constant.
Geoff
In essence, I agree, but I can assure you I'm not even remotely approaching drunk, on a pint and half of beer (often just one pint), with a stomach full of food. Bear in mind that I'm a big guy (6ft 2 and 15 stone).
And I always test myself with a personal breathalyser, which I keep in the car's glove compartment. If I was ever over the limit, or for some reason didn't feel capable of driving home, I'd leave the car in the pub car park and take a taxi home, as like you, I feel very strongly about drunk driving!
Marco.
would think you would be over or very near with 1 pint now, certainly in Scotland.
Yeah, if I still lived up there (where there's now a zero limit), I'd be strictly on orange juice!:)
Marco.
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 20:11
would think you would be over or very near with 1 pint now, certainly in Scotland.
One often overlooked fact is that heavy drinkers may develop a tolerance for alcohol, but their liver becomes less able to process alcohol. It is possible for such persons to be over the limit the morning after even moderate drinking.
Geoff
I am more of a dive person, posh pubs , nah. Good beer, clean glasses , a place where if you walk in wearing work clothes ( site ) no one would batter an eye.
As for a woman having to plough her way through groups of male smokers, all ganged up at the entrance to a pub, before she can enter the premises being unpleasant and intimidating. Unpleasant due to the smell, for many yes. What about at the bar if there are a few guys waiting to get served, maybe for some women that also intimidaing? blokes sat by the entrance to the ladies loo.. etc.. I think that person would be intimidated no matter what. All the women i know would not give two hoots, go to a pub on their own, talk to anybody, but thats them and i can understand not everyone's the same.
One lady i know , many years ago used to have a strip of red LED mini lights on the crotch of her black jeans if a bloke she liked walked passed her going to the bar she would open her legs and light up the strip, it would flash.
Food pubs and drinking pubs, i like drinking pubs.. There are Family pubs too, but i prefer the pubs parents would never take children to.
Back in the day, a cheese toastie, was seen as posh if served at the bar.. The only reason to eat was to carry on drinking.. the types of pubs where the door would open and a horse would come in , landlord would serve it a pint, a guy would drive his bike into the pub.. that was my local, full of characters , no one would tut ,tut, never any trouble.. mix of all sorts.
So many pubs local to me are now mini tesco's and the like. Still some great proper pubs around.
That's it man. That was what it was all about. Now everything's all going antiseptic. These big corporations take over, everything done by the manual, no matter how stupid. Decisions and policy are taken so high up a massively long food chain there's no hope of challenging them. No matter where you go, every place is the same bland mediocrity.
There used to be proper pubs and there used to be pubs where you might see a bloke wearing a jumper over his shoulders. The twain never mixed and everyone was happy.
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 20:19
In essence, I agree, but I can assure you I'm not even remotely approaching drunk, on a pint and half of beer (often just one pint), with a stomach full of food. Bear in mind that I'm a big guy (6ft 2 and 15 stone).
And I always test myself with a personal breathalyser, which I keep in the car's glove compartment. If I was ever over the limit, or for some reason didn't feel capable of driving home, I'd leave the car in the pub car park and take a taxi home, as like you, I feel very strongly about drunk driving!
Marco.
You might come unstuck there because once you get into the car, even to test your blood alcohol, you would be liable to a conviction if over the limit. Probably safer to bring the kit into the pub with you!
Geofff
As for a woman having to plough her way through groups of male smokers, all ganged up at the entrance to a pub, before she can enter the premises being unpleasant and intimidating. Unpleasant due to the smell, for many yes.
Not just the smell, but if you're only tiny, like my wife, who's 5ft 2, and a size 8, then you're likely to be intimidated by groups of (often burly) men, ganged up at the entrances to pubs, smoking or not. She's not used to that kind of thing. She isn't some brash, pint-swilling 'ladette'.
What about at the bar if there are a few guys waiting to get served, maybe for some women that also intimidaing? blokes sat by the entrance to the ladies loo.. etc..
In terms of the first bit, that never happens, as I go to the bar and bring the drinks over to her, or if there's waiter/waitress service available, it's a non-issue. As far as the latter (above) is concerned, if that happened I'd complain to the management, as men shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a ladies loo.
One lady i know , many years ago used to have a strip of red LED mini lights on the crotch of her black jeans if a bloke she liked walked passed her going to the bar she would open her legs and light up the strip, it would flash.
Haha, that's really funny! However, I'm not sure that the term "lady" is apt;)
Food pubs and drinking pubs, i like drinking pubs.. There are Family pubs too, but i prefer the pubs parents would never take children to.
Back in the day, a cheese toastie, was seen as posh if served at the bar.. The only reason to eat was to carry on drinking.. the types of pubs where the door would open and a horse would come in , landlord would serve it a pint, a guy would drive his bike into the pub.. that was my local, full of characters , no one would tut ,tut, never any trouble.. mix of all sorts.
Each to his or her own, I suppose, and I can see some attraction in that, simply for the entertainment value! However, ultimately I'm more interested in eating well, than drinking, so quality food in pubs, for me, is a must:cool:
Marco.
You might come unstuck there because once you get into the car, even to test your blood alcohol, you would be liable to a conviction if over the limit. Probably safer to bring the kit into the pub with you!
Fair point and easily rectified!:)
Marco.
That's it man. That was what it was all about. Now everything's all going antiseptic. These big corporations take over, everything done by the manual, no matter how stupid. Decisions and policy are taken so high up a massively long food chain there's no hope of challenging them. No matter where you go, every place is the same bland mediocrity.
Lol - an unusual turn of phrase! The point you're missing, however, is that there is a whole world of different pubs out there, in between "dives" and characterless corporate chains, and trust me, the best ones aren't "antiseptic";)
If you had a wife or girlfriend, your tastes in pubs would change, unless you go for 'growlers':D
Marco.
Never ever taken a girlfriend into a rough pub. Met a few in them though.
jollyfix
07-08-2018, 20:31
Never ever taken a girlfriend into a rough pub. Met a few in them though.
:lol:
Lol... If you're married, though, you can see my point. Quite simply, if you enjoy your wife's company, then that dictates which types of pubs you go to. Fortunately, however, Del and I like the same things!:)
Marco.
It sums them up, though!:eyebrows:
Each to their own, but those types of 'women', and I use the term loosely, (butch, foul-mouthed, pint-swilling 'ladettes', with no class or any semblance of femininity) completely turn me off :spew:
"Growlers" is exactly what they are. You'd have to dig deep to find any female genes amongst all the sweat and testosterone! As usual, you can always rely on some quality Scottish vernacular, to get your point across succinctly:lol:
Marco.
jollyfix
07-08-2018, 21:16
Haha, that's really funny! However, I'm not sure that the term "lady" is apt.
yep right there Marco.
Sometimes in some pubs, posh or not there are tables by the door to the ladies, and men do sit at those tables...
A good juke box is another thing i like in a pub, not so loud , as long as you can not hear the person you are talking to,but very few juke boxes found in a pubs these days, especially with a good mix of tunes.
I moved to Largs in Scotland back in the early 80's. First local pub my girlfriend at the time took me to was a Hawaian themed pub, yuk. No juke box just tapped music, and bright lights. Next place ok, but had sofas, and tapped music.
I ended up finding this hotel right on the harbour, more like a pub than the local pubs, good music too. Unfortunately got rather drunk , awoke in darkness thinking this doenst smell like our room, i was kipping in the engine room of the ferry boat to millport. No drinking for me for a while after that. Well for another two days. My girlfriends father who we were staying with for a while asked me if im a heavy drinker... err ummm no i said, trying to act like i hardly touch booze. Only found out later what he meant.
When working these days, i breath test my crew in the morning. They need to blow zero for me to let them drive anything. I never drink anything if i have to drive..
Thinking about times in the passed, my father and many like him directions would be, drive 3 miles , just passed the Rose and Crown take a left, by the kings head turn right, then at Hollybush pub turn left etc, seemed like so many more pubs then, but not sure if there were more.
The village i'm from, had 4 pubs all less than 3 mins walk from each other , all different beers and deco . Walk another 10mins any direction you would fine 6 more pubs, and this in a small village. They are all still there, and used. Some gone over to being food pubs, but all busy.
Haha, that's really funny! However, I'm not sure that the term "lady" is apt.
yep right there Marco.
Sometimes in some pubs, posh or not there are tables by the door to the ladies, and men do sit at those tables...
Fair enough, but not that I've encountered. For me, it's totally inappropriate for men to sit outside ladies loos. I certainly wouldn't do it. They'll likely think you're some sort of perv!
A good juke box is another thing i like in a pub, not so loud , as long as you can not hear the person you are talking to,but very few juke boxes found in a pubs these days, especially with a good mix of tunes.
Yup, I'd agree with that, as long as the music blends in subtly with, and doesn't adversely intrude, on the overall ambience. The thing I can't stand is cackling women, who giggle falsely, like hysterical hyenas, at every supposed 'joke' told by one of their friends:rolleyes:
You know the type? They just LOVE the sound of their own voices! If the noise in a pub is so loud, in that respect, that I can't hear myself (or my wife) speak, then we'll often just leave.
I moved to Largs in Scotland back in the early 80's. First local pub my girlfriend at the time took me to was a Hawaian themed pub, yuk. No juke box just tapped music, and bright lights. Next place ok, but had sofas, and tapped music.
I ended up finding this hotel right on the harbour, more like a pub than the local pubs, good music too. Unfortunately got rather drunk , awoke in darkness thinking this doenst smell like our room, i was kipping in the engine room of the ferry boat to millport. No drinking for me for a while after that. Well for another two days. My girlfriends father who we were staying with for a while asked me if im a heavy drinker... err ummm no i said, trying to act like i hardly touch booze. Only found out later what he meant.
:lolsign:
Quality... I know Largs very well, as when we lived in Glasgow, that was one of our favourite seaside haunts, on a sunny day. You must know Nardini's cafe? We knew the original family well, as they were from the same village in Tuscany (Barga) as my family, and had a huge house there just down from our villa.
In terms of good pubs in our local area, we're very lucky, as living right on the border between North Wales and Cheshire, means that there are no shortage of both really nice Welsh and English pubs, especially those in the country, many of which are run privately by a husband and wife team, and tick all of the boxes I listed earlier!:cool:
Marco.
In terms of the first bit, that never happens, as I go to the bar and bring the drinks over to her, or if there's waiter/waitress service available, it's a non-issue. As far as the latter (above) is concerned, if that happened I'd complain to the management, as men shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a ladies loo.
Heh! I was out drinking in Bath with some work colleagues a few years back, and we ended up in a rough-ish pub (by Bath's standards). The place was packed, and several of the female members of the group needed the loo. When one of them came back alone we said 'You weren't gone long'. She replied 'There was a huge queue for the ladies, so I just went into the gents like I usually do when there's a queue. The cubicles in the gents are generally empty.'
Ha - I could say a LOT to that, but I'll be a good boy for once!:D
Can you imagine if a man did the same thing, the other way round?
Marco.
walpurgis
07-08-2018, 22:21
Can you imagine if a man did the same thing, the other way round?
Marco.
I have done. It was a late night lock-in with the guvnor and one of the attendees had 'an accident' in the gents. Very messy and pretty smelly, so the rest of us used the ladies (including the ladies) :D.
Anyway, I said earlier that I'd expand on this, in reference to one of the ten important things I consider make a good pub:
Children are only allowed *if* their parents are capable of controlling/entertaining them, without that onus being put on the pub...
This touches on something Barry said in his opening post about pubs trying to be "family friendly", being one of the reasons for their demise.
Well, I completely agree! Why should the onus be put on pubs to 'entertain' your little brats, if you're too lazy or unwilling to do it yourself and take responsibility for them...?
Now let me qualify that....
I don't know about anyone else here, but when Del and I were brought up, and old enough to be taken into restaurants, or any other public places where children were allowed, our parents kept us occupied by TALKING to us, and/or involving us constructively in the overall experience, which in a restaurant would mean us sitting at the same table together and tasting/discovering different foods, where we'd learn where it came from, or just generally chatting and being together as a family.
We didn't need a dedicated 'play area', with a sandpit in, or whatever, to keep us 'amused', and most importantly, our parents wouldn't have wanted to put us there either! That's simply because they were willing to devote the time and effort necessary to help us grow up into well-behaved, educated adults, by teaching us how to conduct ourselves properly in public places.
Contrast that with these days, where many parents do the complete opposite, through sheer laziness, and so are only too willing to dump their little darlings in said play area, ASAP, to get some 'peace', erm, just so then they can sit on their mobile phones and ignore each other!:doh: It's no wonder so many kids are unruly these days, and unable to communicate properly, or adjust their behaviour to compensate for different environments, when they've been brought up like that.
Therefore, if more parents today did their jobs correctly, and took proper responsibility for their kids, while in restaurants, or other public places, rather than placing that onus on someone else, then we wouldn't need pubs to be "family friendly"!!
[Rant over];)
Marco.
I have done. It was a late night lock-in with the guvnor and one of the attendees had 'an accident' in the gents. Very messy and pretty smelly, so the rest of us used the ladies (including the ladies) :D.
Is that when you hid the toilet cam, to film some 'stimulating viewing' for later:eyebrows:;)
Marco.
walpurgis
07-08-2018, 22:51
No. But it was Hogmanay and my girlfriend took it upon herself to do some 'upskirting' on the two Scottish guys who'd turned up in kilts. She didn't show me, but got hysterics out of her mates! ;)
Haha... I've always said that if you're a single guy, who suits a kilt and wears it 'traditionally', it's the best way to pull!
Marco.
walpurgis
07-08-2018, 22:57
Prefer my nice gingham frocks personally. (they look wickedly kinky with fishnets). :lol:
That's wonderful, shweety. Do you shave first? I always find wearing some studded leather bondage kecks, with a built-in 'peek-a-boo' front panel, does the trick!:D:eyebrows:
Marco.
jollyfix
08-08-2018, 05:15
We, my sister and i were taken to restaurants and pubs since we were very young. Those places to us were adult places, we would be on our best behaviour . My mum and dad would tell us off if we got a tiny bit loud etc.
Recently in a pub, not a purpose family pub, just a normal boozer. Three loud young brats running about, ran into me whilst leaving the bar with a couple of pints, sploshed a fair bit of beer on to the floor ( could have been worse), bloody parents said "oi mind the children"...... I had words with them, but of course their kids can do no wrong in their eyes. Thats the problem. its a pub, not their living room, or garden at home.
Pubs where kids can roam and be kids fine, again those places tend to serve food, so can eat have a drink with all the family, but please not a drinking pub...
Difficult in the country side, as may just be the one local pub catering for all, but if thats the case, keep an eye on your kids.
Minstrel SE
08-08-2018, 05:33
Location, atmosphere and it depends what you are looking for at any given moment. I might find it great to go to an Aberdeen dockside pub with my uncle Tony for a boozy night soaking up the atmosphere of the dockers and dodging the prostitutes :)
Other times I want a good country, family friendly pub with a nice garden to catch a bit of sunshine
I'm not a smoker now but I can see that the smoking ban didnt help many pubs. Ive just seen too many pubs with lazy owners who cater mainly for a local estate. They are just not very welcoming and the atmosphere is a bit crap to sit and enjoy a drink with a girlfriend.
I'm at an age now where I prefer a quieter bar without young lads mouthing off at the pool table. I can't enjoy a drink with the local dickheads coming in. A lot of pubs seem tied in with a brewery chain which confuses things.
I will now go out of my way to find a good pub.
I think people are just spending less on going to pubs. I go back to my earlier point that many pubs seem depressing and badly run. I wonder how they are making money and remain open.
Pigmy Pony
08-08-2018, 06:13
Home!
Which brings us back to the title of this thread! The remaining clientele would not be enough to keep the pubs open, especially the drinkers who have a self-imposed one and a half pint limit (no offence Marco) :) Actually that's not entirely true as many of these would move on to soft drinks which are much more profitable.
My born-again non smoking brother was fairly buzzing a few years ago when Preston opened its first non-smoking pub, which was three or four years ahead of the ban. "All pubs should be non-smoking", he said. A few months later I asked him what this pub was like, and whether their no smoking policy looked like a success. "Never been in, you know I don't bother with pubs much". Two years later the place closed down, it's now a Harley Davidson dealers.
One thing I did notice after the ban - the smell of sweaty armpits was much more noticeable. Maybe we should target them next. Then we'll tackle the fatties.
How about this: a complete smoking ban in and around pubs which serve food so the good folks who've turned out for their plate of hoity-toity au-gratin with a glass of prosecco can enjoy their evening without the filthy smokers ruining it for them, and the traditional 'old man' pubs can go back to doing what they've successfully been doing for hundreds of years?
Oh and the kids are only allowed in the food pubs.
Pigmy Pony
08-08-2018, 06:25
You might come unstuck there because once you get into the car, even to test your blood alcohol, you would be liable to a conviction if over the limit. Probably safer to bring the kit into the pub with you!
Geofff
If your personal breathalyser in any way resembles an e-cigarette you may be chucked out as they're getting it in the neck these days :(
Firebottle
08-08-2018, 07:42
I don't know about anyone else here, but when Del and I were brought up, and old enough to be taken into restaurants, or any other public places where children were allowed, our parents kept us occupied by TALKING to us, and/or involving us constructively in the overall experience, which in a restaurant would mean us sitting at the same table together and tasting/discovering different foods, where we'd learn where it came from, or just generally chatting and being together as a family.
We didn't need a dedicated 'play area', with a sandpit in, or whatever, to keep us 'amused', and most importantly, our parents wouldn't have wanted to put us there either! That's simply because they were willing to devote the time and effort necessary to help us grow up into well-behaved, educated adults, by teaching us how to conduct ourselves properly in public places.
Contrast that with these days, where many parents do the complete opposite, through sheer laziness, and so are only too willing to dump their little darlings in said play area, ASAP, to get some 'peace', erm, just so then they can sit on their mobile phones and ignore each other!:doh: It's no wonder so many kids are unruly these days, and unable to communicate properly, or adjust their behaviour to compensate for different environments, when they've been brought up like that.
Therefore, if more parents today did their jobs correctly, and took proper responsibility for their kids, while in restaurants, or other public places, rather than placing that onus on someone else, then we wouldn't need pubs to be "family friendly"!!
[Rant over];)
Marco.
I'm 100% with you there Marco. One of the real benefits of living in France was that all children were 'under control', or to put it more accurately they were polite and respectful.
It really ticks me off when I see, and hear, brats ruining the enjoyment of everyone else.
A
I don't know about anyone else here, but when Del and I were brought up, and old enough to be taken into restaurants, or any other public places where children were allowed, our parents kept us occupied by TALKING to us, and/or involving us constructively in the overall experience, which in a restaurant would mean us sitting at the same table together and tasting/discovering different foods, where we'd learn where it came from, or just generally chatting and being together as a family.
I don't remember ever going to a restaurant with my parents when we were little, apart from on holidays, but in any case we were incredibly well-behaved in public. Of course children weren't allowed in pubs back then, so if my parents went to the pub we were left with a relative, usually my cousin who was a couple of years older than us. A mate who's the same sort of age as me says he and his sister used to be left in the pub car park with a bottle of lemonade and a packet of arrowroot biscuits when his parents went out for a drink. Generally speaking though, it'd be my parents, grandmother and assorted aunts and uncles boozing and talking the hind legs off several donkeys in the dining room whilst us young 'uns would be left to our own devices. If we made too much noise we were told to 'play outside'. The adults weren't interested in what we had to say, and vice-versa.
Generally speaking though, it'd be my parents, grandmother and assorted aunts and uncles boozing and talking the hind legs off several donkeys in the dining room whilst us young 'uns would be left to our own devices. If we made too much noise we were told to 'play outside'. The adults weren't interested in what we had to say, and vice-versa.
It was a good system and it worked well.
Bit busy at the moment, chaps, to contribute properly. However, some of today's posts have been interesting. For me, Dave (and also Alan with his earlier comments, which I'll get to later) hits the nail on the head here:
We, my sister and i were taken to restaurants and pubs since we were very young. Those places to us were adult places, we would be on our best behaviour . My mum and dad would tell us off if we got a tiny bit loud etc.
Recently in a pub, not a purpose family pub, just a normal boozer. Three loud young brats running about, ran into me whilst leaving the bar with a couple of pints, sploshed a fair bit of beer on to the floor ( could have been worse), bloody parents said "oi mind the children"...... I had words with them, but of course their kids can do no wrong in their eyes. Thats the problem.
I completely, 110% agree!!
So what do you think has caused that problem? If I'd behaved that way, when I was a kid, my dad would've given me cuff behind the ear and apologised profusely to the person concerned, as he was very strict about teaching me good manners and how I should behave in public places.
Therefore, what's changed since in the attitude of parents, who seem both incapable of disciplining their children, when necessary, or seeing them do wrong? I've got my own thoughts on that, which I'll discuss later.
Marco.
Firebottle
08-08-2018, 13:28
The problem is the kids of the 60/70's generation were given carte blanche to get away with anything, as the antidote to the strict parental control of their parents.
Then the kids of kids came along, then the kids of kids of kids and the whole things FUBAR.
The problem is the kids of the 60/70's generation were given carte blanche to get away with anything, as the antidote to the strict parental control of their parents.
Then the kids of kids came along, then the kids of kids of kids and the whole things FUBAR.
I'd buy that argument, were it not for the fact that I was a kid of the 60/70s, and fundamentally NOT "given carte blanche to get away with anything" - far from it! :nono: ;)
Marco.
P.S Come on guys, let's have some more feedback on this. I'm sure you've all got plenty of views on the matter!:)
Born 1968 we were brought up to be well-behaved and only speak when we were spoken to. like Joe say we were not interested in the adults and they were not interested in us. That is a psychologically healthy situation.
When I met up with one of my brothers and his 2 children the other week I was pleased to note that my nephew refused to come and say hello and instead stayed sat watching the telly. He will grow up to be a capable, balanced individual.
Pigmy Pony
08-08-2018, 17:18
I think Alan is at least 10 years out with his theory.
I was born in 1958 (first birth in Preston that year) and so was a child of the sixties. Boredom was never a word ever used, and the only times I ever felt boredom was when my dad would leave me in the van for an hour or so when he was out seeing customers and he had nowhere else to put me.
We made our own entertainment, always outside regardless of the time of year. My friends were never allowed into our house, and I never got to see the inside of theirs. Teatime and a bit of telly in the evenings were the only time spent with parents. I made my own breakfast and got myself off to school.
As for 'quality time' with parents, I remember being taken to the cinema about 3 or 4 times. Lady and the Tramp, Zulu, Carry on Up the Khyber, and that was it. I think we had a day trip to Blackpool or Lytham once a year.
Sounds a bit bleak, but actually it was great. And we really didn't know any different.
We weren't angels, but we understood and accepted the rules: get caught and you get a thick ear. which happened frequently, from the local copper, the farmer, or the slipper from the headmaster.
Something must have happened in the eighties some child abuse probably, and the knee-jerk reaction has been to do away with all forms of corporal punishment. So kids were safe from any physical chastisement - and don't they know it! They can be shitheads to their little hearts' content, safe in the knowledge there ain't a damn thing we can do to them.
I'm betting that child molesting is no more commonplace these days, but the availability of information and increased reporting makes it seem so. Parents are now scared to let their precious bundles out of their sight, and to combat the inevitable boredom the kids now feel as they're pretty much stuck with their parents 24/7, the parents indulge them far more than is good for them, giving kids an inflated sense of their own importance.
When these kids 'grow up' and finally see that the world is largely a shit place compared to the bubble they were brought up in, they will develop all kinds of mental and nervous problems. Say hello to the Snowflake Generation. And then they'll have kids of their own, and these kids will have the same anodyne upbringing thanks to their fucked up parents.
Of course there'll be exceptions - my daughters are little princesses!
We made our own entertainment, always outside regardless of the time of year. My friends were never allowed into our house, and I never got to see the inside of theirs. Teatime and a bit of telly in the evenings were the only time spent with parents. I made my own breakfast and got myself off to school.
Sounds familiar, although our holidays were in a rented flat in Llandudno. Really basic place in a back street but we loved it and as you say we knew no different. One year the old man got a few quid as the share of an Aunties' house and we went to Majorca for two weeks and stayed in a proper hotel. Which was good but it was back to Llandudno the next year and no-one complained.
Weekends we did not dream of waking up my mam and dad, you'd go downstairs and make your own tea and toast and watch the telly. I was doing that from about 6 years old. A friend of mine her lad is 8 and she won't dream of letting him near the kettle or the toaster - we used to cook our toast under the gas grill that you had to light with a match! Had to climb up on a stool to reach it.
Never a problem because we were independent and capable from a very young age whereas this lad of my friends can do nothing for himself. When he gets up on a Saturday morning she has to get up as well because he is totally incapable of acting for himself. Round here 150 years ago he would already be finished with school age six and be out doing hard manual work 6 days a week 12 hours a day. And he can't even boil the kettle.
Like you say, snowflake generation.
Every generation thinks the world's going to Hell in a handcart, and every generation dates the decline from just after their own childhood. This thread is a perfect illustration of that.
Every generation thinks the world's going to Hell in a handcart, and every generation dates the decline from just after their own childhood. This thread is a perfect illustration of that.
Not me! IMO the world started to "go to Hell in a handcart" ten years ago, but rate of descent is accelerating at an alarming rate.
Location, atmosphere and it depends what you are looking for at any given moment. I might find it great to go to an Aberdeen dockside pub with my uncle Tony for a boozy night soaking up the atmosphere of the dockers and dodging the prostitutes :)
Other times I want a good country, family friendly pub with a nice garden to catch a bit of sunshine
I'm not a smoker now but I can see that the smoking ban didnt help many pubs. Ive just seen too many pubs with lazy owners who cater mainly for a local estate. They are just not very welcoming and the atmosphere is a bit crap to sit and enjoy a drink with a girlfriend.
I'm at an age now where I prefer a quieter bar without young lads mouthing off at the pool table. I can't enjoy a drink with the local dickheads coming in. A lot of pubs seem tied in with a brewery chain which confuses things.
I will now go out of my way to find a good pub.
I think people are just spending less on going to pubs. I go back to my earlier point that many pubs seem depressing and badly run. I wonder how they are making money and remain open.
Good post Martin.
Sums up my feelings exactly. I don't really care if the pub is 'posh', or whether is one of the more 'characterful' pubs described above. All I ask is a decent beer that is well looked after and is served by someone at the bar who is welcoming, helpful and polite.
As to the clientele, if they choose to give me the 'cold shoulder' as a newcomer and stranger, or are intimidating, well that is their problem - I will just drink up and be on my way: I detest pubs that are run by the locals.
I've twice walked into local pubs in weird, obscure, out of the way places in England and literally had the music stop and everyone turn to look at me with that 'Who the …. is this ….?' look.
Really Olympic speed record one pint-and-on stuff. I mean I'm talking Wicker Man / Children Of The Corn time. But the music on the juke box just finishing both times, that was weird and really did not help. One of those situations I'd already seen in films before it actually happened in real life to me. The second time it was just 'FFS'. That was in north Nottinghamshire, possibly the strangest place on earth.
walpurgis
08-08-2018, 19:32
That was in north Nottinghamshire, possibly the strangest place on earth.
Ah. Well there you go. The people there all look related and banjo playing is popular. :D
Pigmy Pony
08-08-2018, 19:36
I have a theory about some of these 'out in the sticks' places...
The local women tend to be pleasant and really friendly, but the men view you with suspicion and hostility. Both sexes see you as potential new blood, bringing something new to the gene pool thus reducing the likelihood of pointy-headness in the next generation. This is only important to the women though, the men just see you as competition.
Ive had everyone stopping talking wen Ive gone into strage bars before. usually full of yokels when that happens. once they realised I was there to fix the puggy all was back to normal:D
Pigmy Pony
08-08-2018, 19:41
I've got to ask, what's a puggy? Is that Scottish dialect for farmer's wife?
That was in north Nottinghamshire, possibly the strangest place on earth.
My vote for strangest place on Earth would go to Portland in Dorset. It's the only place I've felt was actually haunted.
Not me! IMO the world started to "go to Hell in a handcart" ten years ago, but rate of descent is accelerating at an alarming rate.
Really? 2008 seems an odd choice of year. What changed specifically for the worse then?
Really? 2008 seems an odd choice of year. What changed specifically for the worse then?
The global financial crash, caused by irresponsible and unbridled greed, with perpetrators getting away with it all.
I've got to ask, what's a puggy? Is that Scottish dialect for farmer's wife?
Fruit machine
The global financial crash, caused by irresponsible and unbridled greed, with perpetrators getting away with it all.
OIC. But surely 2008 was simply the culmination of the financial recklessness of both individuals and governments over the previous decade or so?
Born 1968 we were brought up to be well-behaved and only speak when we were spoken to. like Joe say we were not interested in the adults and they were not interested in us. That is a psychologically healthy situation.
Sorry, don't get that. I'd argue the complete opposite, based on how I was brought up [and if I may say so, rather well, too]!;)
When I met up with one of my brothers and his 2 children the other week I was pleased to note that my nephew refused to come and say hello and instead stayed sat watching the telly. He will grow up to be a capable, balanced individual.
Lol - again that's a complete anathema to me (pure bad manners), and the last sentence is also the complete opposite of my personal experience!:eek:
I was brought up as a child to be caring, warm, confident, friendly and outgoing [all fundamental traits of my parents], and willing and able to talk to anyone, which dare I say it, is exactly how I turned out, not some cold, emotionally challenged, introverted recluse, which in my experience is usually what happens to children who've been brought up glued to the TV [now also games console] and starved of adult (and often proper parental) contact!
Therefore, I greeted all my relatives who visited and gave them a big hug, which was reciprocated, and although I then left the adults to it and played with my mates outside, or went up to my room and listened to music, played on the computer or whatever, when it was meal time, I came down (or was called in) and joined the adults at the table, and we all ate and talked together as a (close and loving) family.
The adults (any of my relatives, grans, granddads, uncles, aunts, etc), took a healthy interest in me (indeed as an only child I was always fussed over) and they always asked what I had been doing, what nice places I'd been to (mum and dad always took me out with them to restaurants, days out to the country/seaside, etc, many times a month) books I'd read, where I'd cycled to or whatever, and I took great pleasure in telling them all about it!
Those types of precious interactions and experiences, as a kid, helped 'shape' me into the person I am now, and I'm very grateful for it.
It's also the reason, as Alan says, that French kids [and Italian] are generally very well behaved amongst adults and in public places, simply because they're used to the situation and aren't phased by it - and conversely why so many British kids are the exact opposite, precisely because they're not!
So, I'm sorry, you're entitled to your opinion, mate, but we're MILES apart on this one.....!:)
Marco.
And another thing - when we were kicking a ball about on the park he got hit full in the face, Never bothered him, he took the pain for a couple of seconds and then was fine and carried on. You can tell the winners at the starting gate.
Now *that* I do agree with, and that most of today's kids are useless softies, with little or no gumption or common sense, simply because they've been mollycoddled all their lives, and never had to think for themselves!
Now, I'll fully admit that I was spoiled, and in reality compared with many others, had a fairly privileged upbringing, but I was always brought up to appreciate the value of money, and had discipline, good manners and a work ethic fundamentally instilled in me, from a very early age.
I can remember wheelbarrowing lumps of soil around, doing weeding and helping with various chores around the house and garden, from a very early age, and when I was old enough helping my dad in his fish and chip shop. No way would he have tolerated me being a soft, lazy, gormless git, even though I wanted for nothing emotionally, or in terms of material possessions, which is rather different to how a lot of kids are brought up today!
Marco.
Y'see, as British children, once we'd got the obligatory 'look how he's grown' and 'doesn't he look like his Dad?' comments out of the way, we just wanted to be off by ourselves, leaving the adults to talk about whatever boring shite they talked about, seemingly for hours on end. This was especially so if it was a bunch of female relatives, who wanted to talk uninterruptedly about 'things' that should be of no concern or interest to youngsters. Being made a fuss over was a fate worse than death; not that it was likely to happen to me with three siblings and a dog competing for my parents' attention. As a middle child (third of four) I was more than happy to be left in peace to play with my toys and/or tease my younger brother and let the adults rabbit on. We had to make our own amusements in those days.
My father was a very dour Scotsman. One thing he couldn't stand was too much talking at meal times. Laughing during the meal meant you were sent out into the garden. I could reduce my elder sister to hysterics just by pulling a face at her. Out she'd go. Then she'd make faces at me through the French windows, and I'd crack up too. Sometimes all four of us children would be out there. That's how tough life was in the early 60s.
We talked with visitors as kids. Maybe not all the time but often.
Was just good manners
Absolutely right Joe. if relatives came round you'd try to stay out of the way. You'd have to go and say hello but it was done in the vain hope that you could just get away with that and then piss off back upstairs or in the back, or wherever you had planned to hide out. Worst case it would only be 5 minutes or so and then Aunty Elsie would be off on one and you could slip away unnoticed.
Absolutely right Joe. if relatives came round you'd try to stay out of the way. You'd have to go and say hello but it was done in the vain hope that you could just get away with that and then piss off back upstairs or in the back, or wherever you had planned to hide out. Worst case it would only be 5 minutes or so and then Aunty Elsie would be off on one and you could slip away unnoticed.
There's a story George Harrison told about his childhood that had me nodding in agreement. He was so afraid of being fussed over by a friendly neighbour that he used to creep past her windows on his hands and knees so as not to be seen. We had a neighbour like that too. She had a kind heart, but more rabbit than Sainsbury's. I could usually avoid her, but my brother was too slow, and would often be held by her interminable Ancient Mariner-type yarns when he really wanted to be watching Fireball XL5 or Supercar. Her husband was a docker, a man of very few words. He told my Southern wife-to-be that he was a 'real wacker', and she thought he meant he was some sort of panel-beater.
Y'see, as British children, once we'd got the obligatory 'look how he's grown' and 'doesn't he look like his Dad?' comments out of the way, we just wanted to be off by ourselves, leaving the adults to talk about whatever boring shite they talked about, seemingly for hours on end.
As I said, exactly as I did... *But* when it came to meal times (which are an integral part of the day and very important to Italian families), I would join the adults to eat, and I would thoroughly enjoy the experience, as most of them, including my mum, were fabulous cooks!
This is no doubt where my interest today in fine food and wine was honed, as from about the age of 5, I was drinking wine with some water in it, and being exposed to all sorts of 'exotic' foods most British kids then could only dream of, a lot of which, I'd hasten to add, was produce of our own garden or greenhouse.
Therefore, for me, meal times were a genuinely FUN and rewarding experience, and in many ways the best part of the day!!
Being made a fuss over was a fate worse than death; not that it was likely to happen to me with three siblings and a dog competing for my parents' attention. As a middle child (third of four) I was more than happy to be left in peace to play with my toys and/or tease my younger brother and let the adults rabbit on. We had to make our own amusements in those days.
I get that, but as an only child, I never experienced any of that, so I was more than happy to be fussed over and spoiled!
My father was a very dour Scotsman. One thing he couldn't stand was too much talking at meal times. Laughing during the meal meant you were sent out into the garden. I could reduce my elder sister to hysterics just by pulling a face at her. Out she'd go. Then she'd make faces at me through the French windows, and I'd crack up too. Sometimes all four of us children would be out there. That's how tough life was in the early 60s.
Fair enough, but my father was (and still is at 85) a cheery, outgoing, passionate (but strictly disciplined) Italian, so the complete opposite of your dad, and that, and our totally different respective cultures, coupled with the fact that I never had a 'tough' life, although I wasn't brought up to be a lazy, spoiled brat either, is most likely responsible for why we look at things so differently.
Marco.
Different cultures but it isn't a question of better or worse. Just different.
walpurgis
08-08-2018, 22:44
My father was somewhat different. If he'd lived long enough for me to get big enough, I'd have decked him!
Different cultures but it isn't a question of better or worse. Just different.
I agree, but it explains the polar opposites of our outlooks!
Marco.
My father was somewhat different. If he'd lived long enough for me to get big enough, I'd have decked him!
Sad to hear that, mate. I simply couldn't imagine having that type of fractious relationship with any of my parents.
Marco.
walpurgis
08-08-2018, 22:55
Sad to hear that, mate. I simply couldn't imagine having that type of fractious relationship with any of my parents.
Marco.
It's why I'm nice to my family. But I probably would have been anyway. :)
We made our own entertainment, always outside regardless of the time of year. My friends were never allowed into our house, and I never got to see the inside of theirs.
When I was with mates, not my parents, we also always made our own entertainment, which is precisely why I didn't need 'entertained' when I was out at a restaurant with my parents, as the 'entertainment' was already factored in, which was simply enjoying being with mum and dad and having a nice meal. That's all the 'entertainment' I needed;)
However, I had friends round to my house, and I also went to theirs all the time. In the summer months, outside of meal times, I was never in! I was either out cycling, playing footy in the park, or round at one of my friend's houses, playing Scalextric, being a 'Warlord Secret Agent', playing Subbuteo, or whatever.
We weren't angels, but we understood and accepted the rules: get caught and you get a thick ear. which happened frequently, from the local copper, the farmer, or the slipper from the headmaster.
Same here. I used to get into all sorts of scraps (as I was naturally mischievous), and some of the worst things I did, I was given a good kick up the backside for, which taught me not to do them again! That type of basic discipline, and what you've outlined above, and the complete lack of it today, is one of the main reasons why kids today are often so unruly and don't give a damn about authority.
Something must have happened in the eighties some child abuse probably, and the knee-jerk reaction has been to do away with all forms of corporal punishment. So kids were safe from any physical chastisement - and don't they know it! They can be shitheads to their little hearts' content, safe in the knowledge there ain't a damn thing we can do to them.
I totally agree, and as usual we've gone too far towards the other extreme, in order to solve a problem whose solution lies somewhere in the middle of both! And yes, sometime in the 80s is when I think it all went 'tits up', and Thatcher was much to blame for it....
Parents are now scared to let their precious bundles out of their sight, and to combat the inevitable boredom the kids now feel as they're pretty much stuck with their parents 24/7, the parents indulge them far more than is good for them, giving kids an inflated sense of their own importance.
I think that's spot on, especially the last bit!
But often on the most important occasions (meal times) there is no such togetherness, and mum and dad will eat their tea on trays in front of the TV, and one kid will have something different in their room, and another, something else in theirs, instead of eating at a table all together as a family, having the one meal! That's a fundamental part of the Italian culture, which IMO is severely lacking in the British one.
When these kids 'grow up' and finally see that the world is largely a shit place compared to the bubble they were brought up in, they will develop all kinds of mental and nervous problems. Say hello to the Snowflake Generation. And then they'll have kids of their own, and these kids will have the same anodyne upbringing thanks to their fucked up parents.
As I've said many times before, it's a case of 'mongrels' spawning more 'mongrels', and so the cycle goes on...... And we've had generations of that cycle now, which is why the current situation is so bad, and only liable to get worse:rolleyes:
Marco.
Crackles
09-08-2018, 05:04
Something must have happened in the eighties
It did. Corporal punishment in schools was made illegal round about 1983.
And then in 1986 Esther bloody Rantzen founded Childline. Not saying that was especially a bad thing but it contributed massively to the culture of children being mollycoddled.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 06:23
It did. Corporal punishment in schools was made illegal round about 1983.
And then in 1986 Esther bloody Rantzen founded Childline. Not saying that was especially a bad thing but it contributed massively to the culture of children being mollycoddled.
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No doubt for every genuine abuse call Childline gets, there'll a hundred more where the kid complains "my mum won't let me watch Hollyoaks" or "we've run out of crisps and dad won't buy any more".
So we're agreed... It all started to go tits up in the 80s. Makes sense, based on my memories of the 70s, and what I've seen documented of people's behaviour in the 50s and 60s.
No comments on my last post, Piggurs?:)
Marco.
No I'm not agreed. You only think it started in the 1980s because that was when children started being allowed in pubs, so you could see how badly behaved and brought up they were.
Possibly, although in Scotland, I was in pubs regularly as a kid, accompanied by my parents. In those days, my dad took two days off a week, when the shop was quietest (Monday and Tuesday), and we used to go regularly for runs to The Trossachs, where we went walking, then for a bar meal in a nice country pub, usually in Aberfoyle or Callendar. Of course only when I was off school.
Pubs up there had a rule that kids were allowed in the lounge bar, as long as they were accompanied by adults, who were having a meal, so I got to see how other kids behaved back then too, who were doing the same thing as me, during the school holidays, and which I can tell you in general was rather different to how they behave now!
Marco..
My parents thought the world had come to an end in 1965 when they saw The Rolling Stones on TOTP. Even though they'd both lived through WWII, they thought some bloke with long hair prancing about like a tit was a sign of the coming Apocalypse. It's impossible to generalise about children. There are scrotes in every generation; they just seem more annoying when you're old enough to complain about 'kids today'.
A couple of years ago I went past my old grammar school on the way to my sister's. Back in my day (late 60s/early 70s) 'letting out time' was fairly anarchic, with kids pushing, shoving, fighting and swearing as they left the school gates. This lot were all polite, well-mannered, with perfect uniforms and not a hair out of place.
or Callendar...
Been there, nice place [emoji846]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180809/05b2afd6c8f318fb06ba53347d57af11.jpg
I think you had to be 14
That might've been the official position, but most pubs were pretty lax about it (after all, they wanted the business), especially if the kids concerned looked older for their age (and I did), so I was going to them from about the age of 11.
Marco.
Been there, nice place [emoji846]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180809/05b2afd6c8f318fb06ba53347d57af11.jpg
Nice one, Roy. It's a lovely wee place with some great shops and a really nice chilled-out vibe. Sadly, most of the places where we used to go eat have long since closed, but when Del and I are up there now we usually treat ourselves to Sunday lunch at the Roman Camp: http://www.romancamphotel.co.uk/
If you've ever up that way, and you fancy a treat, it's proper 'old school', with the staff trained in silver service. The food is truly superb, plus there's a lovely bar/lounge to relax in before and after your meal!:cool:
Marco.
the Roman Camp: http://www.romancamphotel.co.uk/
If you've ever up that way, and you fancy a treat, it's proper 'old school', with the staff trained in silver service. The food is truly superb, plus there's a lovely bar/lounge to relax in before and after your meal!:cool:
Looks good. I'm long overdue a visit to my Cousin who lives in Livingston near Edinburgh, he's always down visiting me on 'business' (which usually translates to one 2 hour meeting in London & 2 days of eating & boozing).
Nice one. If you book in advance, you'll probably get a good deal. Trust me, I think your lady friend would love it!;)
Marco.
I wonder if there's a Callendar calendar?
I’m 60 next year so will definitely be heading up for my cheap pensioners ‘nip’ & pint
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180809/4fd131510c2afd4dfcc5692c59a05f68.jpg
Where's that from?
Marco.
Where's that from?
Marco.
From a bar in Montrose, was quite a pub crawl, we found one bar selling vodka and coke for a £1!. They were making balloon animals in another bar.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180809/e192cc38e37af21955dfd1925a59223c.jpg
Better get the look right then Roy :lol:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/drama/images/flat_cap.jpg
Better get the look right then Roy :lol:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/drama/images/flat_cap.jpg
:lol: (they didn't have a 'Boaby')
Lol... This was one of our favourite haunts, back in the day, in the picturesque little town of Aberfoyle, just outside of Glasgow, The Covenanters Inn (sadly long gone):
https://www.hotelscombined.co.uk/Hotel/Covenanters_Inn_Aberfoyle.htm
They use to have a lovely big roaring log fire in the bar area, which was fantastic in the wintertime, and the dining room, which you can see from the pictures, was really quaint and cosy, with oak beams, etc.
You should visit Aberfoyle too, Roy, next time you're up in Scotland, as it's not far from Callander:)
Marco.
You should visit Aberfoyle too, Roy, next time you're up in Scotland, as it's not far from Callander:)
I probably did Marco, got through a lot of single malt that week (we were stopping at the chalets at the Lake of Menteith).
I probably did Marco, got through a lot of single malt that week (we were stopping at the chalets at the Lake of Menteith).
stayed there once right on lake. very nice chalets and the setting was perfect. just a pity my already disabled wife fell in first hr of being there. spoilt it
stayed there once right on lake. very nice chalets and the setting was perfect. just a pity my already disabled wife fell in first hr of being there. spoilt it
Yes, lovely place Grant & we were lucky with the weather.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180809/6a975b21adf96c30df6454c981d5349d.jpg
similar to my pics lol
https://imageshack.com/a/img538/426/ZoTari.jpg
Must have been slightly breezier when you took your pic Grant, any idea what the peaks in the distance are?
Back on topic, one of my favourite pubs (which they did try to demolish in the 60s apparently) -
https://pubshistory.com/EssexPubs/Romford/goldlion.shtml
ben a'an, ben venue and ben ledi are the 3 biggest near monteith afaik. trossachs mountains
I probably did Marco, got through a lot of single malt that week (we were stopping at the chalets at the Lake of Menteith).
Ah yes, the only LAKE in Scotland... Beautiful place. The others of course are all lochs! If you're back there again, either stay or have lunch at the Lake Hotel, which has some of the finest views, available from a dining table in Scotland: http://www.lake-hotel.com/
Also worth checking out is Loch Earn, which is stunning, and the Four Seasons Hotel, which offers similarly breathtaking views from their restaurant, across the Loch, along with award-winning cuisine: https://www.thefourseasonshotel.co.uk/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=local&utm_campaign=Google%20Local
Marco.
Stunning pics and views, guys... *That* is what all the folks who live in the likes of London are missing - back to nature and REAL LIFE!:)
Marco.
What's the difference between a Lake and a Loch? Is it just a matter of language, or is it hydrological?
lakes, lochs and Loughs are all the same. just language
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 16:45
Or prematurely hairy
Stunning pics and views, guys... *That* is what all the folks who live in the likes of London are missing - back to nature and REAL LIFE!:)
Marco.
Aside from world class museums, art galleries, restaurants, theatres, cinemas and architecture London really has absolutely nothing to offer.
What about the Irish pub? I don't know how they are these days, but in the last millenium they could be distinguished from the British pub as follows:
a) most bar staff had a proper training in cellar craft and knew how to look after their beers and porters.
b) pubs were a place, by and large, to socialise (i.e. to talk to other human beings).
c) many pubs had staff who would take your order and bring it to you at your table rather than you having to queue up at the bar.
d) many pubs had music but it was often live and informal.
I stopped going to British pubs regularly in the 90s. The main reasons were smokers, fruit machines, and overly loud tvs and jukeboxes. Oh, and crappy overpriced beer too!
So did I. I used to make an exception for Waxy O'Connors just off Leicester Square in London town. I haven't been into London for a long while now so I don't know if it's still the same, but I don't see why it shouldn't be. It had all of the attributes listed above, and more. The crock of mussels in white wine sauce was exceptional and the staff were great.
Stunning pics and views, guys... *That* is what all the folks who live in the likes of London are missing - back to nature and REAL LIFE!:)
Marco.
Aside from all the world class museums, art galleries, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, parks and architecture London really has absolutely nothing to offer.
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 17:07
So we're agreed... It all started to go tits up in the 80s. Makes sense, based on my memories of the 70s, and what I've seen documented of people's behaviour in the 50s and 60s.
No comments on my last post, Piggurs?:)
Marco.
Oh sorry - Piggurs, is that me? Quite like that.
It seems that although our backgrounds are quite different, we share the same views on a lot of this stuff. More than one road going to the same place. :)
The difference is that you're probably more inclined to meet things head on, while I, being a bit more of a shrinking violet, am more likely to just take the piss out of it from a safe distance.
Oh sorry - Piggurs, is that me? Quite like that.
I, being a bit more of a shrinking violet, am more likely to just take the piss out of it from a safe distance.
It's the English way. God didn't make this country an island by accident (attr. Terry Collier).
If you're back there again, either stay or have lunch at the Lake Hotel, which has some of the finest views, available from a dining table in Scotland: http://www.lake-hotel.com/
Yes, we stopped for a few drinks there, I remember thinking it would be a great place to spend Xmas or Hogmanay.
Nick Nairn has his cook school near there, we had a look round his shop, the prices were 'imaginative' :eek:
Aside from all the world class museums, art galleries, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, parks and architecture London really has absolutely nothing to offer.
As one Scouse soldier commented when his train was travelling through the countryside en route to his barracks: 'Nothing but grass and trees everywhere. Mile after mile of fuck all'.
walpurgis
09-08-2018, 17:26
Aside from world class museums, art galleries, restaurants, theatres, cinemas and architecture London really has absolutely nothing to offer.
I don't know anybody living here who tours those 'cultural' places. They may have done so as kids or taken their kids there, but that's all. For a start, unless you are loaded, London offers little. Prices for anything are loony! And of course, if you look loaded, the crims will be watching you for a chance to hi-jack your car or rob you.
Aside from all the world class museums, art galleries, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, parks and architecture London really has absolutely nothing to offer.
Lol - never said that, but it's still not really my kind of place - the sheer busyness and overcrowding puts me off. I'm not really a city person. I prefer somewhere I can RELAX and chill, and also breathe in some lovely fresh mountain air:)
Now, just imagine sitting across from Lock Earn, or the Lake of Menteith, on a lovely summer's evening, enjoying the stunning view, whilst sipping a fine single-malt whisky. No noise, no hustle and bustle, just you (and/or your partner) and the sound of nature... Bliss!!:cool:
Marco.
As one Scouse soldier commented when his train was travelling through the countryside en route to his barracks: 'Nothing but grass and trees everywhere. Mile after mile of fuck all'.
Clearly he has no soul!
Marco.
Yes, we stopped for a few drinks there, I remember thinking it would be a great place to spend Xmas or Hogmanay.
Nick Nairn has his cook school near there, we had a look round his shop, the prices were 'imaginative' :eek:
DON"T GO. It's grossly overrated (and overpriced). You'll get a far better meal at the likes of the Roman Camp, for a fraction of the price! :trust:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 17:40
Lol - never said that, but it's still not really my kind of place - the sheer busyness and overcrowding puts me off. I'm not really a city person. I prefer somewhere I can RELAX and chill, and also breathe in some lovely fresh mountain air:)
Now, just imagine sitting across from Lock Earn, or the Lake of Menteith, on a lovely summer's evening, enjoying the stunning view, whilst sipping a fine single-malt whisky. No noise, no hustle and bustle, just you (and/or your partner) and the sound of nature... Bliss!!:cool:
Marco.
Is that what you call your farts, the sound of nature?
Lol - never said that, but it's still not really my kind of place - the sheer busyness and overcrowding puts me off. I'm not really a city person. I prefer somewhere I can RELAX and chill, and also breathe in some lovely fresh mountain air:)
Now, just imagine sitting across from Lock Earn, or the Lake of Menteith, on a lovely summer's evening, enjoying the stunning view, whilst sipping a fine single-malt whisky. No noise, no hustle and bustle, just you (and/or your partner) and the sound of nature... Bliss!!:cool:
Marco.
I also prefer that to London. Unless I want one of the things London has to offer. I wouldn't want to live there, though.
Aside from world class museums, art galleries, restaurants, theatres, cinemas and architecture London really has absolutely nothing to offer.
Our local station is only about half an hour from Liverpool Street but we rarely go into town for a night out, maybe just the odd theatre visit for a matinee, it's just too busy/manic for me. If we eat we'll find somewhere that accepts the 'taste' card where we can eat for half price.
Our local station is only about half an hour from Liverpool Street but we rarely go into town for a night out, maybe just the odd theatre visit for a matinee, it's just too busy/manic for me. If we eat we'll find somewhere that accepts the 'taste' card where we can eat for half price.
Last time I ate in central London was at some Italian place, Friday night but it was early so it wasn't that busy. If I lived out in the sticks like you I wouldn't bother going all that way to eat or drink. But there is all the other stuff there too.
Our local station is only about half an hour from Liverpool Street but we rarely go into town for a night out, maybe just the odd theatre visit for a matinee, it's just too busy/manic for me. If we eat we'll find somewhere that accepts the 'taste' card where we can eat for half price.
Last time I ate in central London was at some Italian place, Friday night but it was early so it wasn't that busy. If I lived out in the sticks like you I wouldn't bother going all that way to eat or drink. But there is all the other stuff there too.
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 18:16
London! London! So good Macca posted it twice :)
I could leave the house now and be in Euston for just after 2100. Why don't wealthy Londoners live up here and commute?
Is that what you call your farts, the sound of nature?
Aye, the sound of THUNDER...!:D
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 18:49
Because they're wealthy and don't need to. Plus they're scared they'd end up smelly, flat-capped tripe eaters. Like us.
Pigmy Pony
09-08-2018, 18:51
Aye, the sound of THUNDER...!:D
Marco.
No that's just God moving away from your trumps and taking his furniture with him.
I could leave the house now and be in Euston for just after 2100. Why don't wealthy Londoners live up here and commute?
WTF do you live man, that's 82 years!
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