How does the NAD C352 compared to other amps under 1000.00?

[daveyboy]

Hi guys I own this amp and remember it being awarded praise from all publications but upgrade fever is biting me and therefore i was wondering whether the likes of the creek evo, the arcam fmj a32 etc were a substantial upgrade? It's just i read that the creek evo for instance is quite light in bass depth, which is not what i want.

I want strong dynamics, full sound and bass weight, surely that's not too much to ask :)

[Macca]

I'm not the man to ask but will probably help some of the other lads to know what the rest of your kit is:)

[daveyboy]

Sure, Acoustic Energy Neo 3 floorstanders and a modded Beresford 7510 using lossless files

[Ali Tait]

Buy the WD88 amp that Paul (Primalsea) is selling.It'll blow you away.

[DSJR]

The 352 isn't bad and it's inexpensive relatively speaking, but it doesn't really set the world alight either to be honest.

The WD88 should be very carefully thought through and you'll have many bods here to help if you need it.. Valves may distort more, but there's just "something" in addition that our ears love so much..

Solid state for under a grand *new* with a refined sound a decent spec/design I'd say the Cambridge 840 V2, which can be got in "returned/ex service" for £500 IIRC. Some here would say, "too safe," but it'll better your NAD.

[daveyboy]

Thanks for your reply, really not interested in a valve amp though but what you seem to be saying is that there isn't going to be a big improvement in stereo amps besides the CA 840 which is actually good news :)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I always used to like the grunty apeal of nad, I always felt that nad gave a more realstic sound than the competition (where a snare should sound hash it does). I have since come to realise that the grunt and power they portray isn't realistic it's more a faux realism that can be quite apealing - I guess that's what you are drawn to when you say you want strong dynamics, bass weight etc!
The natural progression from nad (for me at least) was naim, if you have grand to spend then I would have thought a second hand naim system would kill your nad!
I started with nad then went naim and then before I heard a valve amp I was going to go naim/Avondale ... If you want to stick to solid state and like nad, from my experience, that might well be a good path for you...
For me, the valve system took me away from the faux realism and brought me realism ... This is of course all just my opinion ... It's just my experience ...

[Dave Cawley]

http://www.soundhifi.com/images/PM15-600.jpg

I have a Marantz PM-15S1 with both MM and MC phonostages built in. £750 guaranteed for two years. The review is here http://www.soundhifi.com/images/SA1%20PM15%20HF%20News%20Sep%2005.pdf

I don't think anything new under £1K is going to be much better than what you have?

Regards

Dave

[DSJR]

Hamish, I do appreciate that Naim has changed its sound over the decades, but the harshness on clipping can still be a problem IMO. despite the low-impedance driving ability, in absolute terms, they're still low powered and hideously expensive for what's inside - and don't take the bull about the profit going into after-sales care, as they charge the earth for that as well if the faulty product is returned to the factory.. (thank heavens for Darran at Class A for authorised repairs, or Les at Avondale for everything else :eyebrows:)

Apart from the Cambridge 840, which is really good, and possibly Cyrus, which I can't get my head round these days needing all those power supplies to perform properly, the old "mid-market" of new stuff has gone in the UK and is now dominated by good second-user gear such as Dave Cawley has mentioned.

I don't know the Marantz amp Dave is suggesting, but their top end gear tends to avoid the WTF mentalists and certainly looks and feels the part and I'm sure is properly designed, so should have a great and highly neutral sound (I'm avoiding the ss vs valve "thang" here).

[The Vinyl Adventure]

im purly making a suggestion based on the chaps apparent taste in hifi dave... if i had to go back to solid state i would first investigate avondaled naim kit ... im not saying thats what would i would buy... but i was very happy with that sort of sound for a long time ... ...

[DSJR]

It's OK Hamish, I'm not challenging you in any way - honest...

I love KK's review, questioning how Marantz could work such magic for the money.. Of course they can - it's the bigger model that shows how wacky and price driven top end is - IMO........ For £750, it looks a bargain and will "feel" the part as well...

[The Vinyl Adventure]

i know, i know... and im know my experience is relatively limited... but as someone who lived with nad kit for 10 years and moved on to naim for what i felt was more-but-better-of-the-same i do wonder if he might find the same as i did?

[DSJR]

Ummmmmm - no! :D

I must add that as all dealer dem rooms are different (and usually cr@p acoustics), the differences one hears at home may well be different to what's heard in the dem room..

I found NAD amps of this range to be a bit heavy and ploddy, with, as you say, a sort of artificial quality to them..

The thing is, those Mark Grant's wires are so good and sources have improved again, I'd love to back in the shop comparing these things to test my opinions and memories further..

[Themis]

Jeff proposed an alternative (Music Hall) here : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=113529#post113529

[Macca]

Jeff proposed an alternative (Music Hall) here : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=113529#post113529

Are they available in the UK, though? It doesn't look like it from what I can see.

[daveyboy]

I am still a little thrown by this notion of NAD amps being bass heavy. I can certainly hear this before I use the tone defeat to bypass the tone controls but then things do tighten up. However as for bass in general, I listen to rap music, I listen to rock music predominantly, they were designed to have some bass weight, bass snap, so I am not sure where this idea of unrealistic bass comes? I know i know, you can say that's not music :lol:but it's what I listen to. Perhaps the purer sounds offered by other more costly amps are ideal for the likes of classical music, but they aren't of relevance to me.

I will make a note of the CA 840 though and would you say the same for the CA 740?

[Macca]

I am still a little thrown by this notion of NAD amps being bass heavy. I can certainly hear this before I use the tone defeat to bypass the tone controls but then things do tighten up. However as for bass in general, I listen to rap music, I listen to rock music predominantly,

You didn't mention why you were thinking of relacing the NAD - is it that you want a better bass performance than you are getting? That's what Im guessing from what you say above.

[daveyboy]

Not at all, it's just wondering what else is out there really which represents a noticeable improvement which is a solid state amplifier for less than 1000.00. It's not that I am unhappy with the amp currently though I hasten to add, just the upgrade bug haha

[Macca]

Not at all, it's just wondering what else is out there really which represents a noticeable improvement which is a solid state amplifier for less than 1000.00. It's not that I am unhappy with the amp currently though I hasten to add, just the upgrade bug haha

If it was me with a grand to spend I'd look at the used market for a pre-power combo (don't know if you will need a pre amp as well as your DAC, if not then even better). That way you really will be able to get a noticeable improvement over the NAD.

[DSJR]

Daveyboy,

Apologies, I don't mean to sound smug or patronising in any way, but I was comparing NAD amps of the same generation as yours to their peers for a good while. Compared to great little amps like the Rega Mira (all versions) the NAD veils things, despite its obvious get-up-and-go. I like the Mira, you may not, but it's still good.

Bearing in mind the musical tastes, the 840A and Dave C's recommendation of that Marantz would be head and shoulders above other gear *for now.* Pre's and powers from the used market are just confusing the issue at the moment IMO.

Looking for a turntable? The Techie is the obvious choice as so much can be done with it later on (yes, I know, thanks to TimeStep :respect:). Rega's on their wall-brackets are great too and hold their value well long term in the wider market out there. There are plenty of cheap phono stages too, from NAD's own, to the £55 Rega Fono Micro to the Cambridge 540/640P and then to the next step up under £200...

[daveyboy]

Oh it didn't come across as smug, just simply your world of hi fi and mine are in seperate leagues but the contrast of opinion is healthy.

Why do you think a pre and power would confuse things?

[Ali Tait]

One to consider would be the Jungson JD-88 I think it is.Was reviewed in hifi world.Big class A amp.Very good by all accounts.

[Dave Cawley]

Class A won't do Daveyboy's music at his budget!!!

Dave

[DSJR]

Trouble is with asking questions like this on an enthusiast forum, is that you're going to get all sorts of recommendations from people with varying tastes, knowledge and experience. I'm not knocking this, but the wider you open the window, the more muck flies in..

To be fair, I no longer have any allegiance to any one company or dogma, nor do I have a business interest to maintain, but I do know that if you're not too sure where to go, the LAST thing you want is a load of often opposing recommendations and, to repeat, AT THIS POINT, I'm not sure a pre-power is exactly where you want to be..

Preamps were detached from power amps in the bad old days where noisy, hummy, amplifier power supplies could affect the sensitive phono inputs. As power amps became more powerful, this separation sort of stayed, and done right it can be an excellent way of doing things. However, that doesn't mean that DECENT integrateds aren't any good, often the opposite in fact and the two I specifically mentioned (840A and Dave's Marantz) should be particularly fine, the latter looking and "feeling" the biz too. The chap who sold me my AVI preamp "upgraded" to the bigger Marantz integrated and loved it last we communicated - he'd kept his full AVI setup with pre/power and tuner at least ten years, so the Marantz would have been a heartfelt choice I reckon - the one Dave C is selling is practically as good I understand but half the price...

Hope you can get something you'll enjoy longterm. if you want to be a serial box-swapper, I'd suggest a second system to play with.....

[Themis]

The only constructive thing I can say : "Don't buy any amp at this price without trying it with your speakers first" ! ;)

[Ali Tait]

Class A won't do Daveyboy's music at his budget!!!

Dave

Why not? It's rated at 80w/ch,and I believe has been measured at this.How much do you think he needs??

[Dave Cawley]

He needs a high damping factor and the ability to drive low reactive loads.

Dave

[daveyboy]

Many thanks for the contributions, I take it no one is a particular fan of Creek integrated amps then? I guess this is why opinions are such a minefield because I regarded Creek as slightly more high end but obviously that's low end for you fellas lol

[Themis]

Creek is a good amp to me. As good as any other good ss amp at this price.
I don't know what a "high-end" is, so I can't say more. ;)

[Ali Tait]

He needs a high damping factor and the ability to drive low reactive loads.

Dave

Well from what I've read,the damping factor for the Jungson is 100,which is pretty much typical for a sand amp is it not?

What's your opinion of this Dave?

http://www.tubetvr.com/damping.html

[Dave Cawley]

Where did the 100 damping factor come from, I can't find it at all?

Thanks

Dave

[Ali Tait]

Hi Dave,
I read it somewhere,been trying to find it again but I can't.

[Alex_UK]

Daveboy - I was sure I had responded earlier on this, maybe a different thread as nothing here!

I bought the original Creek Evo integrated last year just as the Mk 2 came out. Maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but I am sure lots of manufacturers only revisit a product because they either are forced to (components becoming hard to source) or because a Mk2 (or 3 or 4) is a good way to re-launch a product with evolution rather revolution (pun intended! ;))

Anyway, it replaced an Audiolab 8000s (the Creek is slightly warmer, but I can't tell a massive difference between the two sounds to be honest) and I also auditioned the Marantz amp that matched my SACD player, the PM 7001 KI Signature and Roksan Kandy K2 -both of which I liked, but to be honest, they all sounded not too different to my (perhaps knackered from too much DJ'ing) ears... The Creek Evo won, but mainly on financial grounds as my local Hughes had it on sale at half-price as it was end of line.

That said, even the Evo 2 isn't a £1,000 amp - more like £570 - Creek Evo Google Shopping (http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=Creek+Evolution+2+Integrated+Amplifier&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=NzXCS4XROILy0gTWleHiCg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CBsQrQQwAg) - and you have no tone controls (pretty much nothing apart from line level input selector volume and a tape loop) which is all I wanted but limiting to some - I have never found the bass light (it's got plenty of grunt, 85 watts RMS I think.

Based on the current price of the NAD C355 (which replaced the C352 I think?) I'm guessing you paid around £450-500 for it? I'd dare bet the Creek would be a side-grade - different maybe, but no massive jump in performance.

Having just typed all this, and then checking Google, I guess you were in fact referring to the CREEK EVOLUTION 5350 AMPLIFIER (http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/6494) - which came out in February 2010 about a grand... :doh: Hadn't seen that before.

Looks good, but having only just found out of it's existence no idea how much better it is than the Evo 2.

That said, the Marantz Dave C has posted above at £750 does look mighty attractive...

[Barry]

Well from what I've read,the damping factor for the Jungson is 100,which is pretty much typical for a sand amp is it not?

What's your opinion of this Dave?

http://www.tubetvr.com/damping.html

Either it shows that all one needs is a damping factor of ~ 25, or one has to take into account the full effect of the crossover (that is the real part of the speaker impedance, rather than the normally quoted modulus value).

I think the author is mistaken in including the speaker resistance with the amplifier output impedance.

Regards

[daveyboy]

Okay here is the thing, after taking some more time to articulate why I am perhaps looking for something else. The NAD delivers lots of bass, it's sharp and snappy, i certainly don't find it overbearing. It produces lots of detail, really capturing the various aspects of a composition very well. It is very clear and sounds quite precise if that's the right word. However when I play some songs I can't help but feel it sounds somewhat flat :scratch: the sound is thick and textured well but it seems to be lacking in some rhythmic drive. So with that said, perhaps this might give you a better idea of suggestions?

Does this make sense or am I talking drivel? lol

[Dave Cawley]

My suggestion hasn't changed. But maybe you should consider the whole system?

Regards

Dave