View Full Version : Gave up on vinyl
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 10:47
Well a month ago I decided to finally give up on vinyl and sell the damn lot via ebay. So far, within the last 31 days I have listed 31 LP's and sold 31 LP's with a an income of £806.43 ! Now that is quite a turnover of funds which I really didn't ever expect. In fact, I have made more on the vinyl than the actual gear required to play the bloody stuff. I will not get into a heavy discussion about why I have done this as it has all been said before elsewhere on this forum but, at the moment I am so glad I have reshaped my music loving life. For whatever future I have I now intend to focus solely on the music and to hell with obsessive hi-fi ways. Time to chill.
nearing 30 a record so must have mostly been collectable ... have to say, i often think of it too
DiveDeepDog
02-08-2018, 11:02
Let us know when your down to the last 100 that are worth 25p:D
If you find you have "obsessive hi-fi ways" I'm sure you realise that is a problem you have with yourself and not the equipment or formats fault.
Beobloke
02-08-2018, 11:50
£806.43?
You could buy a nice turntable with that... :D
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 11:57
If you find you have "obsessive hi-fi ways" I'm sure you realise that is a problem you have with yourself and not the equipment or formats fault.
Then I am in no way alone.
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 11:59
£806.43?
You could buy a nice turntable with that... :D
LOL, yes, my Nottingham Analogue Interspace cost around that secondhand
;)
Unfortunately it still didn't outperform my CD system
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 12:01
nearing 30 a record so must have mostly been collectable ... have to say, i often think of it too
Grant I am truly up to it with vinyl replay and have been teetering on the edge for quite a few years. I never even imagined that any of my LP's would be worth the amount that people have paid for them.
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 12:06
That's an average of £26 per LP! They must have been quite special.
I agree. The gear is only a means to an end - listening to music. For some people the whole vinyl experience, its tangibility, its artwork, the cleaning ritual etc. adds to the listening pleasure. For others, it doesn't.
No need to apologise for not wanting to worship at the altar of vinyl.
Andrew, you clearly understand. I have been into this since the mid seventies and it has completely lost its shine. I had been into 'analogue' photography since 1969 also but gave that up two years ago when I realised that most people just don't give a shit how the image was made. One of the few to comment on film photography was Marco who could quite clearly connect with it. I just think I have spent way too long caring for such things alone. Time to move on.
taking median values my vinyl still has a value around 4k. might get more as they are mostly nm/m. some re rarer than others tbh. Ive sold quite a lot in past to get down to this manageable amount of a little over 300. top value is about 6.6k.
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 12:07
That's an average of £26 per LP! They must have been quite special.
I agree. The gear is only a means to an end - listening to music. For some people the whole vinyl experience, its tangibility, its artwork, the cleaning ritual etc. adds to the listening pleasure. For others, it doesn't.
No need to apologise for not wanting to worship at the altar of vinyl.
Very surprisingly one album alone, 'Older' by George Michael sold for £262.
RobbieGong
02-08-2018, 12:08
Good on you and each to their own. Vinyl replay and all that goes with it doesnt suit everyone.
Tonearm / stylus set up and getting all that spot on with certain carts can drive you totally mad with fatigue and frustration, it really can wear you down no matter how sweet the results.
So with all that said I'm some kind of masochist :lol: must be when I consider the pain i've been through in association with vinyl so i totally get why some go down the road of cd, digital, streaming etc and give up on the vinyl front end and all the hassle that can go with it.
Pete The Cat
02-08-2018, 13:49
Very surprisingly one album alone, 'Older' by George Michael sold for £262.
Excluding that the mean is still over £18 an album.
Must say I'm troubled by the price of vinyl. I understand the economics around low volume production but in my HMV half the new albums are effectively £20 or more eg The Smiths "Strangeways Here We Come" was £28 the other day. I doubt it's something that many folks can afford to get into so I wonder what prices long term record buyers will be faced with once the effect of recent fad and nostalgia have dissipated.
Pete
Cheaper to buy an RCM and get all your favourites second hand and give them a good clean rather than buy these new re-issues at premium prices. From what I've read the sound quality can be very patchy. I've only got one and it's awful, far too noisy.
Audio Al
02-08-2018, 14:11
Oh dear , sad time :(
Cheaper to buy an RCM and get all your favourites second hand and give them a good clean rather than buy these new re-issues at premium prices. From what I've read the sound quality can be very patchy. I've only got one and it's awful, far too noisy.
a lot of the reissues are very good. obviously need cleaned from new to get it optimum but not had many that have been less than excellent sound
Well a month ago I decided to finally give up on vinyl and sell the damn lot via ebay.
Don't blame you - I gave up on vinyl in the early 90s when I finally conceded that CDs rendered the black stuff redundant. I sold the better albums I had and stuffed the rest in a box destined for the attic. I would have sold more but many of the sleeves had been damaged by a cat I had years ago, who preferred LP spines by far to the many scratching posts we tried, so record stores weren't interested (no eBay back then ;) ).
I didn't get rid off the TT because the emotional attachment was too great and I envisaged maybe getting back into vinyl at some point but also because I had a hunch that it wouldn't be long before decent PC technology would be affordable enough to make high quality transcripts a reality. All I can say is I'm glad I waited, but once I had transcribed what I wanted from the rarer stuff, the only real reason for keeping the TT and remaining LPs was pure nostalgia.
I did succumb to trying a couple of the re-releases when Sainsburys started stocking them - Astral Weeks and Unknown Pleasures - but to be honest direct comparison with the CD versions I have didn't reveal a blind bit of difference. I'm not saying that would be true of all vinyl set-ups other than my ancient relics ... but I have absolutely not the slightest inclination of spending a shed load of money to find out.
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 16:24
but I have absolutely not the slightest inclination of spending a shed load of money to find out.
Yeah and therein lies the problem. Good sound from CD for a fraction of good sound from vinyl.
jandl100
02-08-2018, 16:37
Yay, well done, Shaun.
I finally managed to give up vinyl at my 5th attempt.
Definitely a love / hate relationship.
I just loved scouring the charity shops for used LPs, then got frustrated with the typically 1 in 3 success rate. I spent so much time listening to mediocre LPs. :doh: For me vinyl and all its idiosyncrasies and faff definitely got in the way of the music.
I feel kind of clean now they've finally gone. :lol:
Mike Reed
02-08-2018, 16:49
Just come back from the City (Norwich) and browsed through some records in a shop I hadn't visited for a year or two. Then, base price was £4 or £5 for the plentiful 60s/70s/80s stuff. Now it's £7. Quite surprised to see some of my common or garden stuff in the tens of £s.
Jac Hawk
02-08-2018, 17:47
I get where you're coming from Shaun, i listen regularly to vinyl, CD and streamed Spotify and honestly i can happily listen to all three formats, i prefer vinyl but it's more than just the music with the black stuff it's the whole ritual of taking the record out of that big sleeve popping it on the TT, running the carbon fibre brush over it and that little bit of crackle you get even on a very clean record, CD and definitely streamed formats don't give me that, it doesn't make the music any better though but it does make the whole experience of listening more enjoyable for me at least.
As for as new over 2nd hand goes i'm with Martin, 2nd hand is fine as long as you have a RCA and personally i think that vinyl recording was better back then, i think to some degree the "art" of producing a good vinyl master has been lost over time, don't get me wrong i have some good new records, but my best sounding lp's all come from the 70's, coincidence or did they know something back then that's sadly been forgotten?
Crackles
02-08-2018, 19:25
The price of vinyl has really crept up in the last year or two.
Most new stuff is over £20 in the shops, sometimes well over. Second hand copies of popular albums often start at a tenner, a few years back you could often pick up decent albums for £3 or £4.
But it is still better value than hi-res downloads. I can't see how they justify £15 or whatever for something that doesn't most of the production and distribution costs of vinyl.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Haselsh1
02-08-2018, 19:43
For me vinyl and all its idiosyncrasies and faff definitely got in the way of the music.
You know a decade or so back I used to ride Ducati motorbikes of one type or another and people used to ask how I got on with their quirkiness. That's the thing though because when you open your eyes you realise they're not quirky, they're just shite.
;)
Haha your right there, they are very shite!
For me it isn't just the costs of vinyl that is a big put off but also the inconsistency in the quality of the media. So recently I have oscillated between Rega Planar 3s and LP12s as my enthusiasm for vinyl has waxed and waned only to be frustrated by the fact that my Apollo R was comfortably outperforming my LP12 at a tenth of the cost.
I find it a bit sad..a bit like letting go of part of my past that I enjoyed.
ianlenco
03-08-2018, 07:36
Until a couple of days ago I hadn't played vinyl for a few months as I've been busy building some new speakers and it was easier to run through test tracks from my digital source as I messed with stuffing etc. The convenience of a hard disc based system with app control makes for enjoyable, ritual free listening to be sure but when I dropped the stylus into the groove I was immediately reminded of what I had been missing. As good as my digital system is vinyl is so much better so I'll stick to having both. :) As to the cost of vinyl, yep, it's bad so I mostly let my kids know what to buy me for birthday and Christmas. :eyebrows:
Haselsh1
03-08-2018, 08:34
I think if these things could be quantified as with my old Ducati's it would be a case of what you get out versus what you put in. If the cost of your investment is clearly not matched by the pleasure and satisfaction you expect in return then all that is going to happen is that you will become more and more pissed off. That was my situation with vinyl replay. Why the hell should I put in to this medium so much more than I do CD when all I get back is inferior sound. Anyhow, it's all irrelevant now because most of it has gone.
I appreciate though that there are very bad sounding CD's as well.
Audio Al
03-08-2018, 11:33
when I dropped the stylus into the groove I was immediately reminded of what I had been missing. As good as my digital system is vinyl is so much better
A Man who knows the difference ;)
harmonica98
03-08-2018, 12:04
Glad you are happy Shaun! What is your ebay username? Sounds like you are offloading a nice collection :)
Haselsh1
03-08-2018, 13:49
when I dropped the stylus into the groove I was immediately reminded of what I had been missing. As good as my digital system is vinyl is so much better
A Man who knows the difference ;)
LOL, I know the difference alright which is why I am selling all my vinyl gear.
Firebottle
03-08-2018, 17:20
But you have got it back to front, vinyl gives so much more.
OK I understand that you need to spend plenty to get good vinyl playback, but I couldn't be without it.
Happy that you have made the decision, enjoy your tunes.
when I dropped the stylus into the groove I was immediately reminded of what I had been missing. As good as my digital system is vinyl is so much better
A Man who knows the difference ;)Vinyl is a temptress who occassionally comes out in my house and makes me think WTF have I done? But after I have played all my best pressings I soon re-realise that it's average level of ability is definitely below digital.
12 inch 45s though can fuck me up. Literally. The perceived SQ can be amazing. To this day.
Vinyl is a temptress who occassionally comes out in my house and makes me think WTF have I done? But after I have played all my best pressings I soon re-realise that it's average level of ability is definitely below digital.
12 inch 45s though can fuck me up. Literally. The perceived SQ can be amazing. To this day.
So elequently put Justin;) I love how many ways intentionally or unintentionally the vinyl vs digital debate comes up and is explored by AOS members. I am often drawn to investigate just how good digital has become and can definitely give it the thumbs up when its done well. However it never makes my jaw drop like vinyl does or give me goose bumps or makes me think F@5CK that sounds good. Ok when you get a great recording well mastered on digital it can sound OK but so much digital sounds......digital! All the vinyl I have both satisfies my soul and relaxes my brain but engages me in a way no digital system has ever been able to achieve. I still hit the glass wall.
Vinyl makes the music sound so real. It is the meat and the bone, it is inspirational and often sounds amazing. I still shout out when i hear some of my great records they are that good no matter how many times I listen too them. No digital music has ever done that for me. As a consequence I am happy to get off my arse every 20 minutes and go through all the faff and ritual each time. I am prepared to put up with clicks and pops and all the imperfections of vinyl because it sounds so damn good!:lol:
Cheaper to buy an RCM and get all your favourites second hand and give them a good clean rather than buy these new re-issues at premium prices. From what I've read the sound quality can be very patchy. I've only got one and it's awful, far too noisy.
From what I have experienced with modern reissues, you are absolutely right. I was very disappointed, for example, buying a bunch of reissued Prince vinyl, and have lost count of the times when I’ve gotten warped records, or records that sound like the worst of CD, and the worst of vinyl, at the same time.
Idlewithnodrive
03-08-2018, 18:44
Vinyl can be and often IS frustrating but, imo, digital doesn't even come close.
My ears are analogue, therefore I am analogue.
Always see it as the difference between listening to the music ... or listening to the technology.
Just saying ... :lol:
jandl100
03-08-2018, 20:37
Always see it as the difference between listening to the music ... or listening to the technology.
Just saying ... :lol:
Yep, I'd agree with that.
Digital streaming once set up just gets out of the way and provides you with an astonishing range of music available at the flick of a finger.
With analog you have all the faff of cartridge/arm/turntable setup, LP maintenance, storage and retrieval, turning the effing things over after 20 minutes, background noise and grunge.
It just gets in the way of the music.
Just saying ... :lol:
RobbieGong
03-08-2018, 21:28
Yep, I'd agree with that.
Digital streaming once set up just gets out of the way and provides you with an astonishing range of music available at the flick of a finger.
With analog you have all the faff of cartridge/arm/turntable setup, LP maintenance, storage and retrieval, turning the effing things over after 20 minutes, background noise and grunge.
It just gets in the way of the music.
Just saying ... :lol:
and did we mention warped records, nailing the sweetspot (which can sometimes literally sap the very life out of you, the time and elusiveness) otherwise serious ear fatigue and basically not great sound and so on and so on....
But I'm still analogue, cause when it's 'there' life is so VERY GOOD !!! :D
Audio Al
03-08-2018, 21:31
Yep, I'd agree with that.
Digital streaming once set up just gets out of the way and provides you with an astonishing range of music available at the flick of a finger.
With analog you have all the faff of cartridge/arm/turntable setup, LP maintenance, storage and retrieval, turning the effing things over after 20 minutes, background noise and grunge.
It just gets in the way of the music.
Just saying ... :lol:
Jerry
From that statement it sounds like you gave up on the better quality music for the convenience of digital
Stratmangler
03-08-2018, 21:47
Jerry
From that statement it sounds like you gave up on the better quality music for the convenience of digital
Al
You appear to be confusing quality with delivery method!
How's your fly tipping venture going?
Audio Al
03-08-2018, 21:52
Al
You appear to be confusing quality with delivery method!
How's your fly tipping venture going?
Do I :scratch:
Fly tipping ? that went over my head , Please explain :)
Dubster68
03-08-2018, 21:56
All formats have their pros and cons thats why I embrace them all :D
Records can be a pain but they are a lot better than looking at my MP3 collection or iTunes
Stratmangler
03-08-2018, 21:59
Do I :scratch:
Fly tipping ? that went over my head , Please explain :)
Bit of banter, nothing more.
You seem to do a lot of work under the cover of darkness ;)
Al is in the navel secret service [emoji41]
jandl100
04-08-2018, 06:37
Jerry
From that statement it sounds like you gave up on the better quality music for the convenience of digital
No, not at all.
As Marco would tell you, when he visited he enjoyed my system and the digital was miles ahead of the vinyl - admittedly the vinyl end was not at its best at the time. Going through the phono stage of a vintage Marantz receiver, all warm and cuddly and golden glow. I hadn't taken it seriously for years, really.
I never really fell for the "ritual" of vinyl and the noise issues bugged the hell out of me, but you didn't get much choice back then unless you went in deep with the faff and expense of reel to reel. I just wanted to hear the music. The gear is a means to an end, although I do enjoy that as a separate but related interest.
I embraced digital with open arms when it came along.
And now internet music streaming - ah, perfectimondo. :)
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 07:45
Vinyl can be and often IS frustrating but, imo, digital doesn't even come close.
My ears are analogue, therefore I am analogue.
I understand what you are saying but of course the output from my MDAC is analogue and so therefore is the output from the speakers.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 07:46
Yep, I'd agree with that.
Digital streaming once set up just gets out of the way and provides you with an astonishing range of music available at the flick of a finger.
With analog you have all the faff of cartridge/arm/turntable setup, LP maintenance, storage and retrieval, turning the effing things over after 20 minutes, background noise and grunge.
It just gets in the way of the music.
Just saying ... :lol:
Oh yes, it definitely is irritating and it definitely gets in the way of the performance.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 07:51
In my system I have made the decision to choose better quality sound with a far superior stereo image and an infinitely greater level of pleasure than the one I had with vinyl.
I listen to 95% digital these days, but still like that 5% of vinyl. There is nothing quite like it for me, and why i'm reluctant to get rid....so far :lol:
In my system I have made the decision to choose better quality sound with a far superior stereo image and an infinitely greater level of pleasure than the one I had with vinyl.
Stereo imaging with digital is limited certainly in spatial depth and separation compared to vinyl in my experience. But hey, we all hear differently!:lol:
Now that I have retired and downsized I'm finding the convenience of digital and headphones very alluring. Still have my SP10 and all my original gear, but at this stage CD/Lite Dac60 with Bugle Boys/Tim DeParavicini Headcase headphone amp into either Jays U-jays or AUDIO Technica AD900s is keeping me happy.
Despite downsizing the hifi into a bedroom system I'm not enjoying music less, but i am enjoying life more.
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 09:06
Some people just don't get it Jim!!!
Vinyl is beautiful. To look at, to feel, to listen to.
I Never get that from digital.
I don't suppose everyone is looking for the same thing from their music collection. There is no right or wrong format. Just each others preferred method. As long as we are enjoying the music, it doesn't matter much.
ianlenco
04-08-2018, 09:26
........I don't suppose everyone is looking for the same thing from their music collection. There is no right or wrong format. Just each others preferred method. As long as we are enjoying the music, it doesn't matter much.
Quite right Oliver. I've no problem with Shaun saying that he is very happy switching to digital, it's damn convenient and can sound very good. However, I do have a bit of a problem with Shaun saying it is superior to vinyl. Sure, vinyl requires a lot of care to set up right and software can be problematic but once set up it should stay right and the quality with good recordings is imho superior. I'll continue to use and enjoy both formats but digital is like a shop bought ready meal, convenient and OK but nothing like home cooked. :)
jandl100
04-08-2018, 09:32
I agree it can't be right to say that one sounds better than the other intrinsically - it all depends on the gear you use to replay it.
You can only ever say that a particular system sounds better or worse to your ears.
You can certainly imo 'tune' vinyl replay to your own preferences more easily, there is so much variation in the sounds of carts/arms/tts/stages -way more than with digital playback gear.
It's just a giant tone control, really!
:sofa: :lol:
Idlewithnodrive
04-08-2018, 09:33
In response to Ian's post (Jerry got in the way :) ).
This is exactly how I feel about it.
Digital can be perfectly adequate to enjoy music to, but for the real thing it has to be analogue.
walpurgis
04-08-2018, 09:36
I understand what you are saying but of course the output from my MDAC is analogue and so therefore is the output from the speakers.
Similar thoughts crossed my mind.
I use CD and records and find them equally enjoyable.
Simon_LDT
04-08-2018, 09:41
Anyone else find it annoying how these threads always turn into a cd vs vinyl debate? I don't mean here specifically but on all forums I read. It's a bit silly if you ask me because both formats have their pros and cons. Vinyl is not superior to cd and vice versa. They are different ways to enjoy the music.
I must admit that myself personally I don't enjoy the faff of vinyl but I put up with it for the sound quality because I usually choose it over digital if the master is superior. I do enjoy the larger art and the excitement of lowering the stylus, I just wish the overall quality in manufacturing was more consistent because it gets so tiring dealing with warps, off centre pressings, non-fill, gauges/scratches, etc.
I've tried to cut back on vinyl but with many CDs/downloads being brickwalled these days, the vinyl is usually better mastered. Saying that, it's still a gamble because there are plenty of modern pressings which just use the CD master, tweaked a bit so it can be cut.
There seems to be a tendency to reduce the topic to 'convenience v true art' and also over-simplify the delivery of music by digital means (and overcomplicate the use of vinyl)
Things have moved on a lot since 'plug and play' CD delivery and, as the "RPI software choices" thread above this one shows, digital delivery can be every bit as frustrating as setting up a deck for the first time - as to the rest, what comes after the source can be infinitesimally 'tuned' in both cases so I think some of the generalisations about both directions are not really that fruitful.
As many have said in this discussion, it is possible to have both and get equal pleasure regardless of delivery technology. My choice to stick with digital is mostly down to the realisation that to better the vinyl delivery I currently have I would be looking at certainly hundreds - possibly thousands - of pounds of investment and I simply don't see that as worthwhile for achieving what is essentially a marginal edge.
If I want to experience the true 'joy of vinyl' I can simply look at the full sized record sleeve while I listen to a lossless rip of the tracks :lol:
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 11:47
I've had a fairly decent level of Digital playback here and enjoyed it immensely.
I have invested heavily In vinyl replay and had I chosen to do that with digital instead, I am sure it would be as good. Maybe.
It's a means to an end for us all, to listen to the music.
Some people just don't get it Jim!!!
Vinyl is beautiful. To look at, to feel, to listen to.
I Never get that from digital.
I don't suppose everyone is looking for the same thing from their music collection. There is no right or wrong format. Just each others preferred method. As long as we are enjoying the music, it doesn't matter much.
Don't forget the smell! Polycarbonate just doesn't smell as nice as vinyl (especially 1950's or 1960's vinyl).
And yes, those awful polycarbonate 'jewel cases' are just designed to crack and splinter and to damage the equally awful 'sleeve note' booklets.
Apart from that, CDs are to me an equally acceptable means of enjoying music. I use both, but I have probably spent twenty or more times the amount on vinyl replay equipment as I have on CD replay.
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 11:59
Don't forget the smell! Polycarbonate just doesn't smell as nice as vinyl (especially 1950's or 1960's vinyl).
And yes, those awful polycarbonate 'jewel cases' are just designed to crack and splinter and to damage the equally awful 'sleeve note' booklets.
Apart from that, CDs are to me an equally acceptable means of enjoying music. I use both, but I have probably spent twenty or more times the amount on vinyl replay equipment as I have on CD replay.The smell just gets my nostalgia going. It's a really great feeling peeling the vinyl from the sleeve and just listening to the entire album. Something else I don't do with digital. It's too easy to skip tracks and dodge a track that doesn't instantly strike me.
One of the few to comment on film photography was Marco who could quite clearly connect with it.
Shaun, that's simply because I'm the discerning type who recognises and appreciates quality! I 'connect' with many other art forms in the same way:)
The best examples of film photography, for me (which you've posted here frequently, and I have to say are among the finest images I've seen of their type), in comparison with their digital counterparts, just look more organic and 'real'. There's a vibrancy and richness to the colours, and how they're 'fleshed out' in a picture, which digital photography, no matter how well done, to my eyes fails to emulate. In comparison, it never seems to shake off an inherent insipidness.
I largely feel the same about vinyl vs. digital music replay, in assessment when both are at their best, but that's not for this thread. However, I'm sorry you feel like this about vinyl, but of course respect your decision and ultimately what you feel is best for YOU.
As you say, you're far from alone in experiencing a disillusionment with this hobby, where a love of box-swapping and fiddling takes over and erodes one's love of music. So yes, 'hi-fi neurosis' has a lot to answer for, and sadly forums such as this are full of pertinent examples.
Anyway, I wish you well on your musical journey, whatever course it takes, and hope that you can put the fun back soon into listening to your favourite tunes!:cool:
Marco.
montesquieu
04-08-2018, 13:57
The smell just gets my nostalgia going. It's a really great feeling peeling the vinyl from the sleeve and just listening to the entire album. Something else I don't do with digital. It's too easy to skip tracks and dodge a track that doesn't instantly strike me.
Agree this is a big part of it for me too. I'm sure there are people who can treat digital music with the respect it deserves, but for me (and I suspect for many others) digital is a category shift from something special, chosen, individually purchased, owned and cherished, to some un-metered commodity with no specific intrinsic value. It changes the relationship between music and the listener, and not in a good way, in my view.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:03
Godda larf you guys. A week ago I sold a copy of The Manic Street Preachers vinyl LP 'Everything Must Go' that I bought in 1997 and which had never ever been played. I received negative feedback today from this piece of scumshite because apparently it was 'not as described'. Of course he is now blocked but due to ebay's blatant discrimination against sellers there is bog all I can do about it other than report him, which I have done. This is the first negative feedback I have received since about 2002.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:05
Stereo imaging with digital is limited certainly in spatial depth and separation compared to vinyl in my experience. But hey, we all hear differently!:lol:
Ah but CD is not physically limited the way vinyl is due to the nature of the groove cutting process.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:06
Quite right Oliver. I've no problem with Shaun saying that he is very happy switching to digital, it's damn convenient and can sound very good. However, I do have a bit of a problem with Shaun saying it is superior to vinyl. Sure, vinyl requires a lot of care to set up right and software can be problematic but once set up it should stay right and the quality with good recordings is imho superior. I'll continue to use and enjoy both formats but digital is like a shop bought ready meal, convenient and OK but nothing like home cooked. :)
"In my system"
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:10
Anyone else find it annoying how these threads always turn into a cd vs vinyl debate?
Seriously not bloody interested Simon as it is highly irrelevant. As I have stated so many times, in my system, to my ears, CD absolutely walks all over vinyl and I cannot stand having to turn over a vinyl LP after just two tracks because the medium is so sodding limited it is the only way they can get any decent sound from it. With CD I sit back in the dark, press a fucking button and listen uninterrupted for over 70 minutes.
Godda larf you guys. A week ago I sold a copy of The Manic Street Preachers vinyl LP 'Everything Must Go' that I bought in 1997 and which had never ever been played. I received negative feedback today from this piece of scumshite because apparently it was 'not as described'. Of course he is now blocked but due to ebay's blatant discrimination against sellers there is bog all I can do about it other than report him, which I have done. This is the first negative feedback I have received since about 2002.
ebay will remove it if u ask them... happened once to me for no good reason and they took it out.
Agree this is a big part of it for me too. I'm sure there are people who can treat digital music with the respect it deserves, but for me (and I suspect for many others) digital is a category shift from something special, chosen, individually purchased, owned and cherished, to some un-metered commodity with no specific intrinsic value. It changes the relationship between music and the listener, and not in a good way, in my view.
Strangely I feel rather more 'connected' with streaming than CD replay, especially since using Kodi/OSMC, and being able to view album art in HD quality on my large flatscreen TV, which I can then enjoy looking at whilst listening to the music.
How many folks bother taking the covers out from CD jewel cases and read the miniaturised contents, whilst listening to the music, in an attempt to 'connect' with it in the same way that's possible with a vinyl album cover? I suspect almost no-one.
Therefore, for me, in that respect, when you optimise a file-based music streaming system, sonically, and view the track information and album art on a large high-resolution TV display, then CD replay too, in comparison, becomes a category shift from something special - and which is why sooner, rather than later, it will go the way of the dodo.
Therefore, if he hasn't already done so, Shaun should explore the streaming option, as in my experience, done well, it can not only sound better than CD, but overall offer a much more rewarding musical experience.
Marco.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:18
Marco, do not misunderstand, if I go to a photographic gallery I am not going to get very orgasmic over digitally produced prints if they appear next to 'real' ones. That kind of thing is never going to happen but I do not want to spend all day in a darkroom any longer to produce one photograph. I just don't have that level of dedication any longer or indeed that level of commitment. If I see an automobile anywhere and it has a level of paint gloss that you can 'walk' into then I show the same degree of appreciation that some bugger has gone to that level of dedication. And, yes, I am considering getting photographs printed by a real darkroom agency in the future. Such things do exist but the better ones tend to be in London.
Seriously not bloody interested Simon as it is highly irrelevant. As I have stated so many times, in my system, to my ears, CD absolutely walks all over vinyl and I cannot stand having to turn over a vinyl LP after just two tracks because the medium is so sodding limited it is the only way they can get any decent sound from it. With CD I sit back in the dark, press a fucking button and listen uninterrupted for over 70 minutes.
ive now got a great spinner which i use a lot, plus my computer audio which is used most...leaves little time for vinyl tbh but i still have it...in case lol.. Whats Best!.... whats on at the time i guess, and much depends on my mood, but being disabled means file audio is by far the easiest, pain free'est and cheapest.:eek:
tbh if someone came and bought it all, (vinyl end)i wouldn't blink but selling it piecemeal is something i'd find very hard i think.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:19
Shaun, that's simply because I'm the discerning type who recognises and appreciates quality! I 'connect' with many other art forms in the same way:)
The best examples of film photography, for me (which you've posted here frequently, and I have to say are among the finest images I've seen of their type), in comparison with their digital counterparts, just look more organic and 'real'. There's a vibrancy and richness to the colours, and how they're 'fleshed out' in a picture, which digital photography, no matter how well done, to my eyes fails to emulate. In comparison, it never seems to shake off an inherent insipidness.
I largely feel the same about vinyl vs. digital music replay, in assessment when both are at their best, but that's not for this thread. However, I'm sorry you feel like this about vinyl, but of course respect your decision and ultimately what you feel is best for YOU.
As you say, you're far from alone in experiencing a disillusionment with this hobby, where a love of box-swapping and fiddling takes over and erodes one's love of music. So yes, 'hi-fi neurosis' has a lot to answer for, and sadly forums such as this are full of pertinent examples.
Anyway, I wish you well on your musical journey, whatever course it takes, and hope that you can put the fun back soon into listening to your favourite tunes!:cool:
Marco.
The fun is not missing but the irritation is, well it is now.
Haselsh1
04-08-2018, 14:20
ebay will remove it if u ask them... happened once to me for no good reason and they took it out.
Thank you Grant
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 14:37
Godda larf you guys. A week ago I sold a copy of The Manic Street Preachers vinyl LP 'Everything Must Go' that I bought in 1997 and which had never ever been played. I received negative feedback today from this piece of scumshite because apparently it was 'not as described'. Of course he is now blocked but due to ebay's blatant discrimination against sellers there is bog all I can do about it other than report him, which I have done. This is the first negative feedback I have received since about 2002.eBay is a minefield for Vinyl.
I bought album picture as "Near Mint" inside and out
When it arrived, it was far from it. Complained, refunded. Waste of time.
eBay is not ideal at all, hopefully you get it sorted.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180804/f82e166054774177cd238de36bfa6a4c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180804/fd5233a9d4d6d84101d3f9401f56c0b6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180804/597c1df692859091faeaecc52c3e2d30.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180804/54e638fb8dfeb4a290489906e676a44f.jpg
some folk must buy real tat as new in shops if thats nmint
Marco, do not misunderstand, if I go to a photographic gallery I am not going to get very orgasmic over digitally produced prints if they appear next to 'real' ones. That kind of thing is never going to happen but I do not want to spend all day in a darkroom any longer to produce one photograph. I just don't have that level of dedication any longer or indeed that level of commitment. If I see an automobile anywhere and it has a level of paint gloss that you can 'walk' into then I show the same degree of appreciation that some bugger has gone to that level of dedication. And, yes, I am considering getting photographs printed by a real darkroom agency in the future. Such things do exist but the better ones tend to be in London.
No worries, mate. I totally get where you're coming from. For me, to offer an analogy, the former represent mass-produced supermarket wine: made without passion, for quick and forgettable consumption, whereas the latter is like a fine wine: made with love and designed to be savoured and engender lasting memories.
For me, life's too short not to indulge in the finer things in life, and in turn, make some nice memories. The fact that such experiences are harder to come by these days is a refection of our increasingly 'disposable society', where price and convenience generally always come before quality.
It's not a world I choose to inhabit, unless I have to:)
Marco.
paulf-2007
04-08-2018, 14:43
I listen to 95% digital these days, but still like that 5% of vinyl. There is nothing quite like it for me, and why i'm reluctant to get rid....so far :lol:
Nail head
Crackles
04-08-2018, 14:45
some folk must buy real tat as new in shops if thats nmintSellers really take the piss these days with their descriptions. There is always room for interpretation but sometimes they are at least two grades away from the one they use.
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montesquieu
04-08-2018, 14:50
Sellers really take the piss these days with their descriptions. There is always room for interpretation but sometimes they are at least two grades away from the one they use.
There are some great professional vinyl sellers on ebay that grade appropriately and bin the rubbish rather than try to flog it on. It's individuals selling off their own stuff that you have to be most careful about. I seldom buy from ebay from anyone who isn't an established volume seller. By and large you get what you pay for.
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 14:50
They just don't know wtf they are talking about half the time. A lot of people have no clue about grading.
Sellers really take the piss these days with their descriptions. There is always room for interpretation but sometimes they are at least two grades away from the one they use.
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Crackles
04-08-2018, 15:01
I bought an album recently from Discogs that was graded near mint for the cover and the record. When it arrived both cover and record were 'good' at best. I told him this and he apologised but I didn't ask for a refund because he had only charged a fiver which was about right for the quality, but no way was it near mint. If something sounds too good...
Thing is, this was a professional dealer who had been at it for years and had tons of good feedback.
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ive always tried to grade as i would see it as a buyer. a small leeway can be given with older, rarer stuff as its survived maybe 50 years, its unlikely to be perfect even sealed. but generally im usually pretty close tbh.
Ah but CD is not physically limited the way vinyl is due to the nature of the groove cutting process.
Digital trounces vinyl technically, pity it doesn't match it for sound quality which is what its all about for me.
montesquieu
04-08-2018, 17:27
Digital trounces vinyl technically, pity it doesn't match it for sound quality which is what its all about for me.
Subject to doing it right (its far cheaper and easier to build a decent digital system than a vinyl one) but yes ... spot on.
Digital trounces vinyl technically, pity it doesn't match it for sound quality which is what its all about for me.
Lol - we've been here before, remember? "Doesn't", perhaps, in your experience, Jamsie baby! In my system, as I said before, the difference is small - and you know how good my turntable is!:)
What about that super-duper Chord DAC you heard, are you saying that your T/T is still markedly better than that?:cool:
Marco.
Lol - we've been here before, remember? "Doesn't", perhaps, in your experience, Jamsie baby! In my system, as I said before, the difference is small - and you know how good my turntable is!:)
What about that super-duper Chord DAC you heard, are you saying that your T/T is still markedly better than that?:cool:
Marco.
I know we have been here before many times.:) I do not dispute what others hear or prefer and the technical aspects of vinyl vs digital have been exhausted over many posts on AOS. I am happy for folk who have found digital does it for them and have managed to get it to sound good as indeed I have with the Chord DAC and InnuOs server but it still can't match the sound and aural qualities I get from vinyl.
No matter which way you slice it, digital has a fingerprint on everything that is recorded and played back via that medium which I perceive as a glass wall between reality and the listening experience.
Much of the vinyl I listen too is from analogue recordings so no digital in the chain. Most of this music sounds wonderful and still makes me sit up and listen in astonishment at the absolute quality of sound I am listening too. Even the very best digital systems I have heard can't achieve this. Even the vinyl I listen too from digital recordings still sounds better than most of those recordings played back via a digital system.:)
Audio Al
04-08-2018, 18:07
Much of the vinyl I listen too is from analogue recordings so no digital in the chain. Most of this music sounds wonderful and still makes me sit up and listen in astonishment at the absolute quality of sound I am listening too. Even the very best digital systems I have heard can't achieve this. Even the vinyl I listen too from digital recordings still sounds better than most of those recordings played back via a digital system.
+ 10 well said Sir Jombo :)
I know we have been here before many times... I do not dispute what others hear or prefer and the technical aspects of vinyl vs digital have been exhausted over many posts on AOS. I am happy for folk who have found digital does it for them and have managed to get it to sound good as indeed I have with the Chord DAC and InnuOs server but it still can't match the sound and aural qualities I get from vinyl.
No matter which way you slice it, digital has a fingerprint on everything that is recorded and played back via that medium which I perceive as a glass wall between reality and the listening experience.
Much of the vinyl I listen too is from analogue recordings so no digital in the chain. Most of this music sounds wonderful and still makes me sit up and listen in astonishment at the absolute quality of sound I am listening too. Even the very best digital systems I have heard can't achieve this. Even the vinyl I listen too from digital recordings still sounds better than most of those recordings played back via a digital system.
No worries, I get all that and understand where you're coming from, as I've had similar experiences. However, I still think the main culprit for you holding your current viewpoint is that you've yet to hear a good enough digital source, which can seriously compete with your T/T.
What about that Dave DAC you were raving about - do you think that would hit the spot in a shootout with your T/T?:)
Marco.
No worries, I get all that and understand where you're coming from, as I've had similar experiences. However, I still think the main culprit for you holding your current viewpoint is that you've yet to hear a good enough digital source, which can seriously compete with your T/T.
What about that Dave DAC you were raving about - do you think that would hit the spot in a shootout with your T/T?:)
Marco.
It's a difficult question to answer because on many fronts it beats my turntable but that elusive quality you get from vinyl and tangible realism would still not be there. DAVE ticks a lot of boxes. Very low noise floor, massive dynamic ability and a very good handle on soundstage perspective. It is a very precise machine that delivers a huge performance but I question its musical ability to connect with the emotion of the music. Yes it has spades of detail and lots of acoustic information but honestly if you gave me one I would still prefer my vinyl and it would probably only come out for party tricks every now and then.
I guess it's like valve and transistor amps. I appreciate what trannies can do but as far as playing music valves win hands down for me. I probably like distortion mixed in with my music and this may well be what our brains like to hear?
Godda larf you guys. A week ago I sold a copy of The Manic Street Preachers vinyl LP 'Everything Must Go' that I bought in 1997 and which had never ever been played. I received negative feedback today from this piece of scumshite because apparently it was 'not as described'. Of course he is now blocked but due to ebay's blatant discrimination against sellers there is bog all I can do about it other than report him, which I have done. This is the first negative feedback I have received since about 2002.
A friend wanted to sell off his vinyl, I advised him to start a second eBay account. Every seller has to deal with the dishonest shopper, and I sure don’t want them feeding back on my regular account. Use a new account to sell the records, and once they’re gone, cancel it. Preserving your personal account. Just a thought.
Russell
I'm finding listening to streaming music (Tidal via Roon) is giving me a similar experience to what I had in the 70s and 80s listening to vinyl.
Different in the actual format of course but similar in that I'm learning lots of new music and listening again to stuff I've not heard for ages. This is considerably enhanced by the deep metadata, artwork, lyrics, bios, connections and history that Roon makes available. A lot of this is often displayed on a large screen whilst listening. Akin to holding an LP and reading all the stuff.
Still hanging on to TTs and vinyl though. For now ....
I get it, my last analog setup was not that special, it sounded good, but I played more CD’s on average, seemed more convenient. At that time, I could have gone the same way, and gotten out of vinyl.
But my present vinyl system is a different matter. If has the power to evoke emotions, and most of all, one record leads to another, and another. I’ve actually got more money in my CD player, and it does sound amazing! But somehow, lacks that quality to make me want to keep choosing another, and another.
But I confess, I am caught in the nostalgia, all of my favorite recordings are on vinyl, from my favorite era of music, the 70’s, when Vinyl was King! I always tried not to buy duplicate titles when CD came out, so most of my CD’s are from the 80’s and 90’s. So, it seems my favorite recordings are on vinyl? Is it any wonder I appreciate them more? And frankly, replacing them all with digital copies, if that were even possible, sounds like a lot of trouble! I find that I spin vinyl less often as time passes, but on the occasions that I do, I can fully appreciate it, so I’ll be keeping it, for those occasions, no mater how rare they become. To each their own.
Russell
It's a difficult question to answer because on many fronts it beats my turntable but that elusive quality you get from vinyl and tangible realism would still not be there. DAVE ticks a lot of boxes. Very low noise floor, massive dynamic ability and a very good handle on soundstage perspective. It is a very precise machine that delivers a huge performance but I question its musical ability to connect with the emotion of the music. Yes it has spades of detail and lots of acoustic information but honestly if you gave me one I would still prefer my vinyl and it would probably only come out for party tricks every now and then.
I guess it's like valve and transistor amps. I appreciate what trannies can do but as far as playing music valves win hands down for me. I probably like distortion mixed in with my music and this may well be what our brains like to hear?
No problem, Jim. It'll be interesting when you get to hear my system [which *will* happen at some point soon] and see how close you think the CDP is to my T/T:)
Marco.
I'm finding listening to streaming music (Tidal via Roon) is giving me a similar experience to what I had in the 70s and 80s listening to vinyl.
Different in the actual format of course but similar in that I'm learning lots of new music and listening again to stuff I've not heard for ages. This is considerably enhanced by the deep metadata, artwork, lyrics, bios, connections and history that Roon makes available. A lot of this is often displayed on a large screen whilst listening. Akin to holding an LP and reading all the stuff.
That's exactly what I was getting at earlier, Edward. Nice one:cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 20:23
That's exactly what I was getting at earlier, Edward. Nice one:cool:
Marco.The problem with digital is exactly that; "how close is gets"
That statement in itself, reveals that its second in ranking. Vinyl for me is the reference or the marker, that digital is trying to replicate.
That is the problem, its trying to replicate what an excellent Vinyl replay system can do. How many folk say "I'm trying to get my Vinyl setup as good as my digital one"?
Digital in a standalone format can be excellent, no doubt but as good as vinyl, I'm not so sure.
Apples and oranges.
I don't have as an aim to 'replicate vinyl' or even try to emulate it. I try to listen to music for its emotional drive, how it engages me and the 'art' of the musicians. A well set up vinyl set up gives me that (last Saturday Tom showed me what vinyl can do), equally a well set up digital set up gives me that. Different - I love them both. Like in art there is a difference between oils and water colours - both equally valid for conveying meaning.
The 'convenience' factor also plays a big part in this picture. But as they say YMMV.
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 20:46
I don't have as an aim to 'replicate vinyl' or even try to emulate it. I try to listen to music for its emotional drive, how it engages me and the 'art' of the musicians. A well set up vinyl set up gives me that (last Saturday Tom showed me what vinyl can do), equally a well set up digital set up gives me that. Different - I love them both. Like in art there is a difference between oils and water colours - both equally valid for conveying meaning.
The 'convenience' factor also plays a big part in this picture. But as they say YMMV.Fair point Ed, like I say, as long as we are getting what we want, there is no right or wrong.
Hi Ollie,
The problem with digital is exactly that; "how close is gets"
If you're referring to my reply to Jim, that's not what I meant. I meant how close the sound is between my CDP and T/T. That subtle difference makes the context rather different. Trust me, I could blindfold you and play two identical albums, one on vinyl and the other on CD, and you'd struggle to tell which is which;)
How many folk say "I'm trying to get my Vinyl setup as good as my digital one"?
Actually, me (in certain respects)!:D I've discussed this before, but this isn't the thread to go through it all again.
Marco.
Bigman80
04-08-2018, 21:18
Hi Ollie,
If you're referring to my reply to Jim, that's not what I meant. I meant how close the sound is between my CDP and T/T. Trust me, I could blindfold you and play two identical albums, one on vinyl and the other on CD, and you'd struggle to tell which is which;)
Actually, me!:D I've discussed this before, but this isn't the thread to go through it all again.
Marco.Challenge accepted!! Analogue v digital. Blind test, I'm up for that.
Yep, no need to go over old ground.
Crackles
04-08-2018, 22:20
Challenge accepted!! Analogue v digital. Blind test, I'm up for that.
Yep, no need to go over old ground.Sounds like the next bake off [emoji3]
Years ago when I had a Rega RP1 it sounded worse than my CD player, totally lifeless, but using a decent TT these days makes me hardly want to listen to CD.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Sounds like the next bake off [emoji3]
Years ago when I had a Rega RP1 it sounded worse than my CD player, totally lifeless, but using a decent TT these days makes me hardly want to listen to CD.
Hence your forum name? :D
Crackles
04-08-2018, 22:34
Hence your forum name? :DYep [emoji16]
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Challenge accepted!! Analogue v digital. Blind test, I'm up for that.
.
https://i.imgur.com/0ynoE2e.jpg
Johnny nocash
04-08-2018, 22:55
I prefer vinyl when it's almost clear sounding. Soundstage deeper, more 3D like & involving, better than cd.
I prefer cd because it doesn't suffer (as much) from pops, scratches etc which do my head in.
I'd like to say that I'm a true vinyl chap but clearly I'm not because the noise on the black stuff ruins my listening. It's £u<k!ng irritating. I thought the higher up the analogue ladder I went then the better equipment I had would lessen this.
No.
It's even more annoying because I've spent more & more on a system that the format continually lets itself down. I'm sorry to say this because the best music I've heard in my system was vinyl. It just doesn't happen regularly enough, gutted.
Some carts do show up clicks and pops more than others and many need really accurate setting up.
When digital cd came out there were 3 great advantages. It didn't suffer from clicks etc, it could play for a long time without being touched and you could easily jump tracks et.
When rcms became available to me I have to say they revolutionised vinyl for me. But a good tracking cart is for me essential too.
I don't think you should try comparing the 2 as they are different approaches to the same end. Both have advantages over each other and both can sound superb
I don't have as an aim to 'replicate vinyl' or even try to emulate it. I try to listen to music for its emotional drive, how it engages me and the 'art' of the musicians. A well set up vinyl set up gives me that (last Saturday Tom showed me what vinyl can do), equally a well set up digital set up gives me that. Different - I love them both. Like in art there is a difference between oils and water colours - both equally valid for conveying meaning.
The 'convenience' factor also plays a big part in this picture. But as they say YMMV.
The, “Oils and water colors”, analogy is spot on! And the point about conveyance. That’s what it’s all about, emotional content. Every system is different, as is every listener.
Russell
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 05:08
https://i.imgur.com/0ynoE2e.jpg[emoji23][emoji23]
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 05:08
Sounds like the next bake off [emoji3]
Years ago when I had a Rega RP1 it sounded worse than my CD player, totally lifeless, but using a decent TT these days makes me hardly want to listen to CD.
Sent from my SM-G920F using TapatalkThat's not a bad shout actually. A Digital V Analogue bakeoff could be fun.
A Vinyl vs CD Bake Off, how very back to the 80's.
What a way to show how both mediums have merged in SQ.
If you liked Stoyans VAS, then if I can encourage him along to a Bake Off with the VAS and his gutted Sony CDP's, that have been Tube Modded, way beyond the usual methods, with Custom Wound Transformers, then you might just have a rethink.
I've got one at home on loan, and I am thinking I am doing my vinyl pursuit thing through loyalty and a determination to realise a long term ambition.
My wife who has a extremely good ear, entered the listening room last weekend, and claimed she was hearing the best music replay she can recall, she said it sounds brilliant outside the room as well, she was referring to Stoyans CDP.
The New TT will be functioning very soon, I have a few Vinyl/CD same artist.
I will update with my thoughts on my mini Bake Off.
Challenge accepted!! Analogue v digital. Blind test, I'm up for that.
Yes, but let's make it different, and not about which one is outright 'best', but rather how close each other can sound *if* the T/T in question is so quiet and super-stable/rock solid in playback (no pitch wavering, speed stability issues and/or bass hump, or high-frequency distortion/break up, with the cartridge used, as is common with vinyl replay), like a CD player in operation that, when listening blind, there are virtually no audible clues that you're listening to a rock being dragged through a piece of black plastic.
Experience tells me that only the very BEST T/Ts are capable of that (when playing mint condition vinyl), whilst still excelling at all the things that, say, Jim values about vinyl replay, in terms of musical connection, emotion, etc. That's what I meant yesterday when I responded to your comment of 'trying to get a vinyl setup as good as a digital one', and what costs serious money to get right!
Essentially, you know that you've got a pretty special T/T when it majors on all the best aspects of digital replay, but still sounds, in a good way, like a turntable - *AND* also the other way round, when your CD player/DAC excels at all the usual digital traits (as mentioned), but majors on the addictive musicality of a good turntable.
Some of you have heard my T/T at NEBO, so know what that's like, but Macca has heard both vinyl and digital playback in my system, so he'll know where I'm coming from here...;)
Marco.
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 07:11
Yes, but let's make it different, and not about which one is outright 'best', but rather how close each other can sound *if* the T/T in question is so quiet and super-stable/rock solid in playback (no pitch wavering, speed stability issues and/or bass hump, or high-frequency distortion/break up, with the cartridge used, as is common with vinyl replay), like a CD player in operation that, when listening blind, there are virtually no audible clues that you're listening to a rock being dragged through a piece of black plastic.
Experience tells me that only the very BEST T/Ts are capable of that (when playing mint condition vinyl), whilst still excelling at all the things that, say, Jim values about vinyl replay, in terms of musical connection, emotion, etc. That's what I meant yesterday when I responded to your comment of 'trying to get a vinyl setup as good as a digital one', and what costs serious money to get right!
Essentially, you know that you've got a pretty special T/T when it majors on all the best aspects of digital replay, but still sounds, in a good way, like a turntable - *AND* also the other way round, when your CD player/DAC excels at all the usual digital traits (as mentioned), but majors on the addictive musicality of a good turntable.
Some of you have heard my T/T at NEBO, so know what that's like, but Macca has heard both vinyl and digital playback in my system, so he'll know where I'm coming from here...;)
Marco.I like that idea.
Well, you'll learn something genuinely useful that way about digital and vinyl playback. Plus, trust me, it'll sort the wheat from the chaff, in terms of the T/Ts used, too!;)
Marco.
paulf-2007
05-08-2018, 07:48
Anyone one with Roy Orbison in dreams on vinyl, play blue bayou, it's a track with quiet passages that showcase Roy's voice, that in the room sound with reverb that sounds natural. Listening on Spotify it doesn't come close, lifeless and the reverb sounds fake.
I have fallen down that rabbit hole Marco where you can get vinyl and Digital to sound the same. The trick is to find a recording where this happens. I did this with an Agnes Obel album and could not tell the difference between the two, however on most other stuff when you compare the vinyl version to the digital version the differences become very apparent.
Anyone one with Roy Orbison in dreams on vinyl, play blue bayou, it's a track with quiet passages that showcase Roy's voice, that in the room sound with reverb that sounds natural. Listening on Spotify it doesn't come close, lifeless and the reverb sounds fake.
Spotify is lossy though and that is sometimes very obvious.
As well as vinyl Vs CD, a Raspberry Pi type device needs to enter as well, as Imthink that these are the nail in the coffin of the CD player.
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 08:09
As well as vinyl Vs CD, a Raspberry Pi type device needs to enter as well, as Imthink that these are the nail in the coffin of the CD player.Really? I don't understand them or I'd try one.
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 08:16
designed to be savoured and engender lasting memories.
Marco.
Oh man I love that sentiment. That is exactly what producing prints in a darkroom is about. The prints I made were on Agfa Record Rapid exhibition grade chlorobromide paper that whilst still wet was archivally treated. I could guarantee that these prints would never fade in my lifetime or indeed any offspring's lifetime. I wonder how many people could say that about a digital print..? Maybe a monochrome print made using carbon based inks.
Lasting memories indeed, way beyond my lifetime.
As well as vinyl Vs CD, a Raspberry Pi type device needs to enter as well, as Imthink that these are the nail in the coffin of the CD player.
My Technics SLP1200 will take the Pepsi challenge against that or any other digital set up. So would Marco's Sony R1.
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 08:20
A friend wanted to sell off his vinyl, I advised him to start a second eBay account. Every seller has to deal with the dishonest shopper, and I sure don’t want them feeding back on my regular account. Use a new account to sell the records, and once they’re gone, cancel it. Preserving your personal account. Just a thought.
Russell
And a very good thought indeed.
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 08:22
The problem with digital is exactly that; "how close is gets"
That problem is not just suffered by digital sources.
mightymonoped
05-08-2018, 08:23
As well as vinyl Vs CD, a Raspberry Pi type device needs to enter as well, as Imthink that these are the nail in the coffin of the CD player.
+1 on that!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 08:26
I have fallen down that rabbit hole Marco where you can get vinyl and Digital to sound the same. The trick is to find a recording where this happens. I did this with an Agnes Obel album and could not tell the difference between the two, however on most other stuff when you compare the vinyl version to the digital version the differences become very apparent.
Yeah, the track 'Riverside' is bloody sublime on vinyl
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 08:27
My Technics SLP1200 will take the Pepsi challenge against that or any other digital set up. So would Marco's Sony R1.I'm sensing a bakeoff challenge.
The SLP1200 was very good, certainly the best CDP I have heard.
paulf-2007
05-08-2018, 08:36
Spotify is lossy though and that is sometimes very obvious.
It's just an example and maybe not the best one. Perhaps someone has the vinyl and cd of it to compare. Yes many tracks sound identical on both vinyl and cd but most of those are new pressings. Agnes Obel is a good example, very nice album but doesn't have the magic of old recordings.
To add, I don't have the album with riverside on
No contest in my opinion .......
King Kong is a 25ft ape and Godzilla is a 500ft monster [emoji23]
walpurgis
05-08-2018, 09:11
Godzilla is a 500ft monster [emoji23]
Has anyone actually checked? I'm not sure you can get a tape measure that long. :)
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 09:20
No contest in my opinion .......
King Kong is a 25ft ape and Godzilla is a 500ft monster [emoji23]Godzilla is Vinyl. It has to be, it's older lol
I have fallen down that rabbit hole Marco where you can get vinyl and Digital to sound the same. The trick is to find a recording where this happens. I did this with an Agnes Obel album and could not tell the difference between the two, however on most other stuff when you compare the vinyl version to the digital version the differences become very apparent.
Lol... Are you seriously suggesting that I'm only referring to one specific recording? Come on, Jim, you know me and how thorough I am with these things!;)
No, this is something I could demonstrate with at least, 20 or 30 different albums, on CD and vinyl, probably more - and it's something I've *only* been able to do since getting my T/T up to a certain technical standard.
There's a point where the best T/Ts are so well 'sorted' (engineered), in terms of isolating the mechanical process, as it were, from music reproduced, that the former becomes almost 'invisible', and all you hear is the music itself, delivered in the 'effortless' and totally stable way of digital. It's what direct-drive T/Ts, in particular, are very good at.
The vast majority of T/Ts I've heard gave an obvious, quite pronounced sonic signature, which then superimposes itself onto the music, so that you know, in a bad way, that it's a record you're listening to, not a CD, as you can hear the obvious coloration. Mine simply doesn't do that to any discernible degree.
*That* is what I'm referring to, and why with the recordings in question, I can sometimes forget whether I'm listening to a record or a CD; not because my T/T sounds 'digital', in a bad way, but because the colorations, normally associated with vinyl replay are virtually absent.
I'll demonstrate this at the bake-off in question, whenever it gets organised:)
Marco.
Stratmangler
05-08-2018, 10:03
Anyone one with Roy Orbison in dreams on vinyl, play blue bayou, it's a track with quiet passages that showcase Roy's voice, that in the room sound with reverb that sounds natural.
Listening on Spotify it doesn't come close, lifeless and the reverb sounds fake.
Spotify streams lossily compressed data, so it's no wonder it sounds poorer.
I use Spotify to hear music don't have, and if it's something I really like then I'll get the CD.
So far the CD rip has always sounded noticeably better than the Spotify stream.
My conclusion is that Spotify streams do not stand up under scrutiny. They make a pleasant enough sound on playback, but they're not up to the standard of CD.
This may change when they eventually start streaming uncompressed (and by uncompressed I mean data compressed) material.
My conclusion is that Spotify streams do not stand up under scrutiny. They make a pleasant enough sound on playback, but they're not up to the standard of CD.
100% agree, Chris, as that's also what my ears (and now considerable experience in that area) tell me, and which is why I've no idea how Jerry (who I know also has good ears) can be so resolutely satisfied with it as his primary music source!:scratch:
Have you tried Tidal instead? To my ears it's notably better, and genuinely much closer to CD standard.
Marco.
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 10:20
Fancy a Modded 1210 Vs SP10 MK2 ?
Obviously this is a little more tricky.
Lol... Are you seriously suggesting that I'm only referring to one specific recording? Come on, Jim, you know me and how thorough I am with these things!;)
No, this is something I could demonstrate with at least, 20 or 30 different albums, on CD and vinyl, probably more - and it's something I've *only* been able to do since getting my T/T up to a certain technical standard.
There's a point where the really best T/Ts are so well 'sorted' (engineered), in terms of isolating the mechanical process, as it were, from music reproduced, that the former becomes almost 'invisible', and all you hear is the music itself, delivered in the 'effortless' and totally stable way of digital.
The vast majority of T/Ts I've heard have their own pronounced sonic signature, which then superimposes itself onto the music, so that you know, in a bad way, that it's a record you're listening to, not a CD, as you can hear the obvious coloration. Mine simply doesn't do that to any discernible degree.
*That* is what I'm referring to, and why with the recordings in question, I can sometimes forget whether I'm listening to a record or a CD; not because my T/T sounds 'digital', in a bad way, but because the colorations, normally associated with vinyl replay are virtually absent.
I'll demonstrate this at the bake-off in question, whenever it gets organised:)
Marco.
Fancy a Modded 1210 Vs SP10 MK2 ?
Obviously this is a little more tricky.
This sounds like it could be a dead heat:lol:
Stratmangler
05-08-2018, 10:26
Have you tried Tidal instead? To my ears it's notably better, and genuinely much closer to CD standard.
I had a free trial of the hifi service a while ago, and generally found it to produce better sound quality.
I also had a 3 month free trial of the standard (MP3) service earlier this year, and and it does not produce better sound quality than Spotify.
Tidal also has a lousy interface via my Squeezebox setup, and there's no way I'd use a laptop or desktop as a source unless I happen to be doing something on the machine.
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 10:26
I know. Probably not much in it at all. I thought that afternoon posted it.
This sounds like it could be a dead heat[emoji38]
Lol... Are you seriously suggesting that I'm only referring to one specific recording? Come on, Jim, you know me and how thorough I am with these things!;)
No, this is something I could demonstrate with at least, 20 or 30 different albums, on CD and vinyl, probably more - and it's something I've *only* been able to do since getting my T/T up to a certain technical standard.
There's a point where the really best T/Ts are so well 'sorted' (engineered), in terms of isolating the mechanical process, as it were, from music reproduced, that the former becomes almost 'invisible', and all you hear is the music itself, delivered in the 'effortless' and totally stable way of digital.
The vast majority of T/Ts I've heard have their own pronounced sonic signature, which then superimposes itself onto the music, so that you know, in a bad way, that it's a record you're listening to, not a CD, as you can hear the obvious coloration. Mine simply doesn't do that to any discernible degree.
*That* is what I'm referring to, and why with the recordings in question, I can sometimes forget whether I'm listening to a record or a CD; not because my T/T sounds 'digital', in a bad way, but because the colorations, normally associated with vinyl replay are virtually absent.
I'll demonstrate this at the bake-off in question, whenever it gets organised:)
Marco.
I would not like my turntable to sound like a CD player or even remove all the colourations that it has. I am not into totally neutral devices, either amplification, turntables or speakers. In fact they are all coloured to a certain degree and add a certain amount of their own distortion to the music. What you hear is not what they heard in the recording studio as obviously they were using different equipment in a different environment.
The system you put together played in your acoustic space ( room) adds loads of its own colouration, you can't take away from that.
I was warned to be careful when choosing a Turntable as indeed some of the super high end stuff does have exceedingly low colouration and adds very little of itself to the sound. In fact it can then sound a bit like CD! I don't want my system to sound like this!
As I said in my previous post I like the distortion I get in my system as it produces a fabulous sound which makes my vinyl playback addictive.:) And yes my turntable also completely vanishes leaving just the performer and music as witnessed by a fair few folk on this forum.
What I don't want to do is iron out all the small amounts of distortion as it would become very dull and lifeless. Its a bit like totally sound treating a room where you have no reflections and the music dies. A little bit of reflection in the right place and done to right degree gives you a great sound and great imaging.
So finally what I am saying is yes my vinyl playback is distorted in many ways before it enters my lug holes but that sound is simply marvellous and this is why I don't want my system to sound like a CD or playback music that sounds like a CD.:lol:
100% agree, Chris, as that's also what my ears (and now considerable experience in that area) tell me, and which is why I've no idea how Jerry (who I know also has good ears) can be so resolutely satisfied with it as his primary music source!:scratch:
Have you tried Tidal instead? To my ears it's notably better, and genuinely much closer to CD standard.
Marco.
no so much in it on headphones with most music ive found. plus spotty is great to operate for me anyway,
I had the huge valve Droplet 5.00 CD player but lovely though it sounded its not beating my present set up of lenco gl75 with mayware
tonearm/ decca cartridge with its better more natural sounding way. Some of my 60 s classical records are just brilliant, be there and be astounded !
Just think about it a wee needle on a slab of black vinyl, it just works for some reason. Though Shaun is happy with his decision ( and money ) I m sure
he s had many pleasurable years of listening to the black stuff. Good luck with the profits and spend or safe wisely !
Interesting subject
Spotify done right is very good but not CD imho however that is not the reason why people go there
The ability to listen to huge amount of music at the touch of a button, when you find a album you like buy it, no need to sit in a booth and listen with headphones on (for all of the younger generation that is how Saturday mornings were spent)
This year I have taken back eight high end vinyl playback systems from life long analogue owners some were very good indeed, the reason two fold
The ease of which music can accessed and the sound of quality digital is reminding them that they can obtain top draw playback for a much less cost couple with that pressing a button to work it all. Also the space that is required to store vinyl is often overlooked.
Bold statement now for equal playback you will need to outlay twice as much on analogue to reach the same performance at a set price where as 20 years ago you needed three times the cost on digital to achieve.
This is not vinyl vs digital in this discussion this is about practicality, sentiment and nostalgia oh and £££
I have heard some of the best vinyl set ups in the Far East where it is a religion and nothing in the UK has ever come close though Mik at Unique makes some of the best vinyl sounds in the country imho
Conversely digital can sound sound breath taking good, however if you prefer vinyl that will be your replay of choice no matter what
I am fortunate to have decent replay systems across vinyl, reel to reel master tapes and digital master files they all sound really amazing but for different reasons
Personally I am a digital guy 100% but that does not stop me appreciating good vinyl they biggest factor these days as I have always advocated is the transfer from the original masters to the individual formats
Good music is just that good music and you listen on your choice or replay medium
Just as a side bar, recently I obtained one of my very first proper digital systems from 18 years ago a Wadia 15 dac max resolution 24/48khz (although it only uses 20 of those bits!)
Man had I forgotten just what a wonderful musical communicator it was and this was 24 years old it just boogied into oblivion and made even mundane music sound interesting and engaging
Unlike Naim this is a natural unforced rhythmic pace, I have given it a refresh and changed a couple of components still keeping the Wadia sound
A lot of these newer uber dac with s/n's of 128dB plus have lower noise floors and mega detail but Very few actually deliver a musically enjoyable and listenable sound that will captivate you for long periods of time
I love the sound to bits it is as good as what I personally use no, not by a long shot however it puts a smile on my face and is thoroughly enjoyable what more do want?
jandl100
05-08-2018, 11:04
100% agree, Chris, as that's also what my ears (and now considerable experience in that area) tell me, and which is why I've no idea how Jerry (who I know also has good ears) can be so resolutely satisfied with it {Spotify} as his primary music source!:scratch:
Have you tried Tidal instead? To my ears it's notably better, and genuinely much closer to CD standard.
Marco.
I've been using Qobuz 16/44 (CD quality) streaming for about 4 months now (as per my siggie below). I've cancelled my Spotify account.
Yes, I can hear the difference!
Switching back and forth between time-aligned Qobuz and CD the sound is pretty much identical.
I would not like my turntable to sound like a CD player or even remove all the colourations that it has. I am not into totally neutral devices, either amplification, turntables or speakers. In fact they are all coloured to a certain degree and add a certain amount of their own distortion to the music. What you hear is not what they heard in the recording studio as obviously they were using different equipment in a different environment.
The system you put together played in your acoustic space ( room) adds loads of its own colouration, you can't take away from that.
I was warned to be careful when choosing a Turntable as indeed some of the super high end stuff does have exceedingly low colouration and adds very little of itself to the sound. In fact it can then sound a bit like CD! I don't want my system to sound like this!
As I said in my previous post I like the distortion I get in my system as it produces a fabulous sound which makes my vinyl playback addictive.:) And yes my turntable also completely vanishes leaving just the performer and music as witnessed by a fair few folk on this forum.
What I don't want to do is iron out all the small amounts of distortion as it would become very dull and lifeless. Its a bit like totally sound treating a room where you have no reflections and the music dies. A little bit of reflection in the right place and done to right degree gives you a great sound and great imaging.
So finally what I am saying is yes my vinyl playback is distorted in many ways before it enters my lug holes but that sound is simply marvellous and this is why I don't want my system to sound like a CD or playback music that sounds like a CD.:lol:
I thought Marco's TT was too clinical with a modern Ortofon SPU. But with a Denon DSL1 on it, it was spot on. So it isn't just down to the TT, the cart and I suppose the arm play a part.
Oliver seems to have got the balance about right too with his SP10. Digital levels of transparency to the recording but at the same time not soulless and analytical. There's only a few TT set ups I have heard that have managed this. They had all been heavily modified from stock, with the exception of Oliver's I think. Most vinyl set-ups sound a little crude to me compared to digital, but it is possible to go beyond that with enough money and effort.
Fancy a Modded 1210 Vs SP10 MK2 ?
Obviously this is a little more tricky.
Done it before, dude, many times (against some top-notch SP10s), with interesting results. You forget how long I've been at this game for!:eyebrows:;)
However, always up for another comparison sometime:cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 11:19
Done it before, dude, many times (against some top-notch SP10s), with interesting results. You forget how long I've been at this game for!:eyebrows:;)
However, always up for another comparison sometime:cool:
Marco.I know you have, but I haven't. Be good for me if no one else [emoji6]
If it's happens, cool.
I thought Marco's TT was too clinical with a modern Ortofon SPU. But with a Denon DSL1 on it, it was spot on. So it isn't just down to the TT, the cart and I suppose the arm play a part.
*Exactly* my point... The motor unit side of the T/T is so well sorted now, and essentially neutral in character, that the arm/cartridge combo is simply allowed to 'do its thing'. Therefore, that's primarily what you hear, not the turntable itself, and thus why a change of cartridge is so significant! :)
Oliver seems to have got the balance about right too with his SP10. Digital levels of transparency to the recording but at the same time not soulless and analytical. There's only a few TT set ups I have heard that have managed this. They had all been heavily modified from stock, with the exception of Oliver's I think. Most vinyl set-ups sound a little crude to me compared to digital, but it is possible to go beyond that with enough money and effort.
I don't doubt that Ollie's SP10 sounds exactly as you describe. Plinths aside, which can fundamentally change their presentation for better or worse, turntables, such as SP10s, don't need modifying, as they were originally built as pretty much 'cost no object', unlike the SL-1200, which was rather more built to a price.
That's why the latter make such good projects for modifying, as the basic motor unit it top-notch, but pretty much everything else attached to it can be judiciously improved, and which *can* result in the creation of something even better than an SP10, particularly if the 40-year old electronics haven't been expertly looked at and brought up to spec, if necessary.
Your last sentence, in bold, also reflects the results of my experience, which is pretty much what I've been saying to Jim!:cool:
Marco.
Stratmangler
05-08-2018, 11:29
I've been using Qobuz 16/44 (CD quality) streaming for about 4 months now (as per my siggie below). I've cancelled my Spotify account.
Yes, I can hear the difference!
Switching back and forth between time-aligned Qobuz and CD the sound is pretty much identical.
Qobuz does have the ability to incorporate ASIO or WASAPI drivers with the desktop player https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/info/qobuz-vous/the-playback-modes-of-desktop179419
It's worth experimenting with them, because they completely prioritise music playback and shut off all other system noises, bringing improved sound quality by bypassing the internal Windows sound mixer.
I would not like my turntable to sound like a CD player or even remove all the colourations that it has.
Well, you've heard my T/T at NEBO, with the Denon DL-S1, which others and you positively raved about. Did that sound "like a CD player", in the way you're inferring?;)
Think about that one....
So you're not really getting where I'm coming from, mate.
Marco.
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 11:36
Though Shaun is happy with his decision ( and money ) I m sure
he s had many pleasurable years of listening to the black stuff. Good luck with the profits and spend or safe wisely !
I first got into hi-fi back in 1979 and have had some wonderful experiences with analogue gear and made some bloody wonderful friends but they moved on to other parts of the World and new things and I now feel it is time to let go of the past and move on to whatever the future holds. With that in mind I have no bloody idea what is next but I doubt it will disappoint.
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 11:40
Oh yeah but in family terms I started in 1965 with our Dansette Tempo..!
I had a free trial of the hifi service a while ago, and generally found it to produce better sound quality.
I also had a 3 month free trial of the standard (MP3) service earlier this year, and and it does not produce better sound quality than Spotify.
Tidal also has a lousy interface via my Squeezebox setup, and there's no way I'd use a laptop or desktop as a source unless I happen to be doing something on the machine.
Fair enough, mate. That would be a pisser then, no matter how good it sounded. I have no such issues here with Chromecasting Tidal, via my Mac and network-enabled Sony home-cinema amp, through the rest of the downstairs system, where I then view the track content, etc, on my 49" HD Sony TV:)
Marco.
I've been using Qobuz 16/44 (CD quality) streaming for about 4 months now (as per my siggie below).
Lol - so what took you so bloody long, daftee, to discover the SQ limitations of Spotify?:ner::D;)
IIRC, before that you'd been using it for years!
Marco.
Well, you've heard my T/T at NEBO, with the Denon DL-S1, which others and you positively raved about. Did that sound "like a CD player", in the way you're inferring?;)
Think about that one....
So you're not really getting where I'm coming from, mate.
Marco.
Your turntable is spot on Marco, no doubt about that and when i heard it it certainly did not sound like CD!.:)
jandl100
05-08-2018, 11:56
Lol - so what took you so bloody long to discover the SQ limitations of Spotify?:ner::D;)
IIRC, before that you'd been using it for years!
Marco.
Well, a combination of things, I think.
I'd started off streaming with Tidal on Justin's reccie.
I stayed with it for about a year, then an audio-buddy suggested I try Spotify Premium. I was dubious due to its lossy nature but gave it a go.
I think it was similar to Jim's turntable colourations which he seems to love so much - there were some tonal quirks and a slight smoothness (less rez) to Spotify that actually came as a bit of a relief compared to Tidal, which had come to sound a bit stark, insistent and forward.
So I kind of relaxed into the Spotify sound and revelled in the breadth of its catalogue (better than any other streaming service, ime).
But there came a day when an email from Qobuz gave me 3 months free trial at 16/44.
I appreciated getting the "Tidal rez" back and it seems rather more tonally neutral than Tidal (possibly setup dependent) so I can happily listen for hours.
So I have coughed up for a Qobuz 16/44 sub and cancelled Spotify Premium.
And that's where I am at the moment.
EDIT: And Qobuz has the advantage of being able to search by record label and also has a decent and growing proportion of "CD booklets" available for viewing.
Stratmangler
05-08-2018, 11:59
Fair enough, mate. That would be a pisser then, no matter how good it sounded. I have no such issues here with Chromecasting Tidal, via my Mac and network-enabled Sony home-cinema amp, through the rest of the downstairs system, where I then view the track content, etc, on my 49" HD Sony TV:)
Marco.
You Chromecasting is not far removed from what I've been doing for years.
In my case I access LMS (which is now being run on a RasPi), which in turn drives the Squeezeboxes, from either a web browser on any computer in the house, or using an app on my Smartphone.
Your turntable is spot on Marco, no doubt about that and when i heard it it certainly did not sound like CD!.:)
Cool, *but* which proves that you're not quite getting where I'm coming from mate, because in my view it has some of the best attributes of CD, as I outlined earlier, whilst still sounding like a good turntable. Therefore, by definition, in some ways it sounds like a good CD player.
I can't really put it any plainer than that:)
Marco
Bigman80
05-08-2018, 12:08
"I don't doubt that Ollie's SP10 sounds exactly as you describe. Plinths aside, which can fundamentally change their presentation for better or worse, turntables, such as SP10s, don't need modifying, as they were originally built as pretty much 'cost no object', unlike the SL-1200, which was rather more built to a price."
I agree with this. The SP10 doesn't need much help other than getting rid of the shite platter mat and sticking a Tenuto (or a n other) on it. That was the biggest upgrade I've made to an actual TT.
The plinth is Panzerholtz and the arm is incredibly good (thanks Phonomac) so no need for change there either.
Well, a combination of things, I think.
I'd started off streaming with Tidal on Justin's reccie.
I stayed with it for about a year, then an audio-buddy suggested I try Spotify Premium. I was dubious due to its lossy nature but gave it a go.
I think it was similar to Jim's turntable colourations which he seems to love so much - there were some tonal quirks and a slight smoothness (less rez) to Spotify that actually came as a bit of a relief compared to Tidal, which had come to sound a bit stark, insistent and forward.
So I kind of relaxed into the Spotify sound and revelled in the breadth of its catalogue (better than any other streaming service, ime).
But there came a day when an email from Qobuz gave me 3 months free trial at 16/44.
I appreciated getting the "Tidal rez" back and it seems rather more tonally neutral than Tidal (possibly setup dependent) so I can happily listen for hours.
So I have coughed up for a Qobuz 16/44 sub and cancelled Spotify Premium.
And that's where I am at the moment.
No worries, Jerry. The difference in my system is that, whilst I totally agree with you about the more "relaxed" sound of Spotify (in my view as a result of its inferior resolution), which is why I ultimately didn't get on with it after only about 3 months of using it, Tidal doesn't sound in any way "insistent and forward", simply more like music should do, in a high-fidelity sense, due to the source signal being less compromised/compressed.
With me, as soon as I detect an obvious bottleneck in the sound, compared with what I know is right, then it's out the window, as I'm not after anything that could be deemed as 'rose-tinted' or imbued with obvious coloration. I like to hear stuff, warts and all!
Marco.
jandl100
05-08-2018, 12:15
No worries, Jerry. The difference in my system is that, whilst I totally agree with you about the more "relaxed" sound of Spotify (in my view as a result of its inferior resolution), which is why I ultimately didn't get on with it after only about 3 months of using it
Well, yes - it just took me a bit longer. :)
-- and I do miss the extra scope of the Spotify catalogue a bit. But there's more than enough music of potential interest on Qobuz to keep me happy for several lifetimes.
Although if Spot started up a hi-rez service I would be first in the queue to sign up and give it a go!
A lot of these newer uber dac with s/n's of 128dB plus have lower noise floors and mega detail but Very few actually deliver a musically enjoyable and listenable sound that will captivate you for long periods of time.
Exactly my experience, which is precisely why, in my main system, I've stuck with using (now for over 10 years) an 'obsolete' Sony CDP and DAC, from the late 80s (albeit modified), the latter of which uses multibit technology!
Consequently, that's why it has some of the 'addictive musicality' you get from a good turntable, and why in my system there isn't a lot to choose between the performance of vinyl and digital, simply because my T/T has many of the attributes of a good digital source, and vice versa with my CDP/DAC - and none of that is an accident;)
Marco.
Oh man I love that sentiment. That is exactly what producing prints in a darkroom is about......
Lasting memories indeed, way beyond my lifetime.
Absolutely Shaun. The problem is that these days few folk appreciate genuine quality and are prepared to pay for it. It's all about what's cheapest and most convenient, which for me is a really sad state of affairs, compared with how things used to be in that respect.
As I said, the current attitude is indicative of our increasingly 'disposable society', where aside from anything else, nothing has any real value or longevity. Folk simply want a 'quick hit', and are unwilling to work at anything that requires some effort, in order to be rewarding - including their relationships [don't get me started on that one]!!;)
Marco.
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 15:54
Absolutely Shaun. The problem is that these days few folk appreciate genuine quality and are prepared to pay for it. It's all about what's cheapest and most convenient, which for me is a really sad state of affairs, compared with how things used to be in that respect.
As I said, the current attitude is indicative of our increasingly 'disposable society', where aside from anything else, nothing has any real value or longevity. Folk simply want a 'quick hit', and are unwilling to work at anything that requires some effort, in order to be rewarding - including their relationships [don't get me started on that one]!!;)
Marco.
Yes Marco, a number of years back I had my own photo gallery in a cellar under a shop in Pickering, North Yorkshire and I sold framed prints of mainly black and white photographs. A lot of these were genuine photographs printed in the traditional manner but sadly, most of the general public didn't give a damn. There were of course the discerning few who could see the difference but most folk simply didn't care so most of what sold were framed digital prints in glorious colour.
Pearls before swine, mate!:doh:
Marco.
Cool, *but* which proves that you're not quite getting where I'm coming from mate, because in my view it has some of the best attributes of CD, as I outlined earlier, whilst still sounding like a good turntable. Therefore, by definition, in some ways it sounds like a good CD player.
I can't really put it any plainer than that:)
Marco
I get what your saying and I am sure your turntable was the benchmark you used in order to elevate your digital front end.:cool:
Haselsh1
05-08-2018, 18:35
James, I know what you are saying wasn't aimed at me but this vinyl/digital thing is a really good benchmark with which to position one's self for the future. I would much rather use vinyl and whilst I did, by and large, I loved it. My problem was that I got a much 'easier' system and sound with CD. To match my CD system would have required the spending of way more than I did and here I decided it stopped, the spending that is. I reached a point where to me it was just no longer worth it. I certainly will miss the subtleties of vinyl replay but in the same breath, I will not miss so many of the irritations. My finest vinyl moment was way back in 1997 when I had an Alphason Sonata with HR100S MCS tonearm. Awesome, I bloody loved it.
James, I know what you are saying wasn't aimed at me but this vinyl/digital thing is a really good benchmark with which to position one's self for the future. I would much rather use vinyl and whilst I did, by and large, I loved it. My problem was that I got a much 'easier' system and sound with CD. To match my CD system would have required the spending of way more than I did and here I decided it stopped, the spending that is. I reached a point where to me it was just no longer worth it. I certainly will miss the subtleties of vinyl replay but in the same breath, I will not miss so many of the irritations. My finest vinyl moment was way back in 1997 when I had an Alphason Sonata with HR100S MCS tonearm. Awesome, I bloody loved it.
I completely understand peoples position on Vinyl and Digital playback and their reasons for using either one or the other or both. There is no doubt that Digital is here to stay especially in its streaming capacity and I am sure Hi Rez material will eventually become the norm, no one should really be getting anything less than CD quality these days. I also understand the convenience and lack of irritating aspects of digital audio and respect the fact that for some Vinyl is labour intensive by comparison and frustrating to get right especially as so many pressings are quite poor from new. The mechanical set up and constant attention Turntables require is a bind although I like noodling around with this aspect.
CD can now sound very good indeed with the implementation of a great DAC and I am sure these will go from strength to strength. I agree Shaun that Vinyl systems can get very expensive before you acquire something that sounds stunning and by comparison digital can be relatively cheap and so much easier to live with.
I know of a few people who have lots of time and unlimited budgets (in comparison to mine) who have also decided to give up Vinyl completely and listen exclusively to FBA system having decided that this was the superior route. You have made that same decision and I am sure it is the right one for you as i have followed your endeavours on AOS for quite a few years and I know you take your hifi and more importantly your music seriously. :cool:
Stereo imaging with digital is limited certainly in spatial depth and separation compared to vinyl in my experience. But hey, we all hear differently!:lol:
I agree, it is very difficult for digital to get that 3D soundstage and dynamic contrast. However, when it does, then it’s vinyl that has to play catch up.
From a technical point of view is there something intrinsically better with vinyl to give better separation and 3d sound-stage than digital?
Edward (always learning)
Stratmangler
06-08-2018, 17:22
From a technical point of view is there something intrinsically better with vinyl to give better separation and 3d sound-stage than digital?
Edward (always learning)
No!
I agree, it is very difficult for digital to get that 3D soundstage and dynamic contrast. However, when it does, then it’s vinyl that has to play catch up.
The ability of either to do it is completely swamped by the effects of the room and speaker placement. So it's a bit of a non-argument. Even if that wasn't true it isn't cheap or easy to do it with vinyl.
FWIW the best system I have heard for imaging used a digital source. On paper at least I'd expect digital to be better at imaging than vinyl, all else being properly sorted. And don't forget all that imaging has to be on the recording in the first place. A lot of productions for rock and pop are pretty average in that regard.
I agree, it is very difficult for digital to get that 3D soundstage and dynamic contrast. However, when it does, then it’s vinyl that has to play catch up.
The only digital device I have heard that can match vinyl for 3D soundstage and particularly depth is the DAVE DAC. Simply awesome and sounds very analogue. Chord are definitely onto something with that DAC and if they keep going they will nail all aspects of the audio performance and probably move beyond vinyls capabilities.
I've found digital far harder to get to produce stage or image depth. Most digital IME has less stage depth than vinyl but it doesn't have to. It's not necessarily expensive to get digital to perform the trick, just attention to detail.
Mike Reed
06-08-2018, 20:21
Although it's different (but not a lot), my valved CDP does all the usuals as well as my record player; on good discs, that is. For sheer dynamics and musical immersion, there's little between them; however, I've vastly more records than CDs so 3 out of 4 sessions are on vinyl.
The only digital device I have heard that can match vinyl for 3D soundstage and particularly depth is the DAVE DAC. Simply awesome and sounds very analogue. Chord are definitely onto something with that DAC and if they keep going they will nail all aspects of the audio performance and probably move beyond vinyls capabilities.
And will still insist on unnecessary expensive and extravagant machining of the housings and 'bling' cosmetics.
Sorry but the Chord Dave is one of the most mechanical sounding dacs ever constructed imho
Impressive and exciting yes up to the lack of 3dimensionality and real palpability solid sounding Yes, but it lacks textural layering and total-note decay and micro detail. Plenty of upfront detailing , however it reminds me very much of Naim lots of leading edge but not much after that
Also when comparing with any other dac do level match the Dave as you may find the analogue output voltage is well over six volts in balanced mode and northwards of four volts in single ended
Plenty of other genuinely musical digital to analogue converters out there and valves not required for good digital output stages
I have an original dac 64 the one with the small torroid transformer that it not to bad, more engaging less Chord like
Although it's different (but not a lot), my valved CDP does all the usuals as well as my record player; on good discs, that is. For sheer dynamics and musical immersion, there's little between them; however, I've vastly more records than CDs so 3 out of 4 sessions are on vinyl.
I agree - the two approaches are both equally good and equally poor. And both are as only good as the recorded software, which in either case can leave much to be desired.
I have about the same number of recordings on CD as I do on vinyl. New recordings are on CD, whereas I 'mine' the charity shops for good quality, vintage, classical vinyl.
Probably got more cds than vinyl now and mostly use digital but still overall prefer vinyl for the total experience.
Sorry but the Chord Dave is one of the most mechanical sounding dacs ever constructed imho
Impressive and exciting yes up to the lack of 3dimensionality and real palpability solid sounding Yes, but it lacks textural layering and total-note decay and micro detail. Plenty of upfront detailing , however it reminds me very much of Naim lots of leading edge but not much after that
Also when comparing with any other dac do level match the Dave as you may find the analogue output voltage is well over six volts in balanced mode and northwards of four volts in single ended
Plenty of other genuinely musical digital to analogue converters out there and valves not required for good digital output stages
I have an original dac 64 the one with the small torroid transformer that it not to bad, more engaging less Chord like
I have listened to DAVE a lot with the m-scaler and no way does it sound mechanical. You must have heard it in a rotten system to sound like that. It is the smoothest most analogue sounding DAC I have heard. And in terms of 3D soundstage and textural layering it is superb.
I really can't understand your listening experience led you to think it sounded the way you described it.
Hey ho we all hear diferently I suppose.
And will still insist on unnecessary expensive and extravagant machining of the housings and 'bling' cosmetics.
I agree I hate the bling look and styling of all Chord components never mind the DACs.
Haselsh1
07-08-2018, 07:07
Regarding the digital versus analogue debate and still involving Marco, my own personal findings are that where photography is concerned, silver halide based imaging produces a depth of quality that extends way deeper than the surface of the paper onto which it is printed and reproduces a range of mid tones that are massive and of exceptional quality. Digital on the other hand impresses because it is dynamic and graphic and very initially over powering. It also becomes obvious that as the image resolution goes up and up to beyond 40mp that the overall image becomes more and more detached from reality. It reaches a point whereupon what you are looking at on paper is nothing like the image that was in front of your eyes.
My suggestion is that for me, digital audio is almost identical. As the resolution goes up and up so the detachment from reality also increases.
In photography one is forced to work in a darkroom with toxic chemicals and powerful irritants; with audio one is forced to endure the aspects of using a turntable and all of its bits and pieces.
I guess with all things you pay your money and you make your choice.
There are differences in opinion over Chord DACs as per the comments over DAVE. It's interesting to read this review of HUGO 2: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17273218/chord-hugo-2-review-dac-headphone-amplifier
For all its technical greatness, however, the Hugo 2 simply doesn’t sound musical. Vocals are that one degree too cool, the treble is that little touch too sharp and punchy, and the balance is simply off. There’s no humanity to the music that comes from the Hugo 2, and that becomes apparent over a longer listening session with good headphones.
We get into the the fine detail of what analogue means to us. An important part of analogue for myself is about musical flow and atmosphere, with flow being the No 1 priority. Hyper detail and a great sound stage can deliver the atmosphere but flow as I call it is tougher, it's often more what a NOS DAC delivers rather vs a squeaky clean DAC.
[I]For all its technical greatness, however, the Hugo 2 simply doesn’t sound musical. Vocals are that one degree too cool, the treble is that little touch too sharp and punchy, and the balance is simply off. There’s no humanity to the music...
Sounds like something that's been designed on technical spec, more than musical ability, a process which needs final voicing by ear, and from that description, I doubt the Hugo's been outside of a test lab....
If that's the case then, Clive, it DEFO won't be my thing, as what's written above is fundamentally what I *hate* about modern digital equipment - and why I prefer the best vintage CDPs and DACs, as their 'voicing' and musical presentation is the polar opposite of what's described!
Marco.
Regarding the digital versus analogue debate and still involving Marco, my own personal findings are that where photography is concerned, silver halide based imaging produces a depth of quality that extends way deeper than the surface of the paper onto which it is printed and reproduces a range of mid tones that are massive and of exceptional quality. Digital on the other hand impresses because it is dynamic and graphic and very initially over powering. It also becomes obvious that as the image resolution goes up and up to beyond 40mp that the overall image becomes more and more detached from reality. It reaches a point whereupon what you are looking at on paper is nothing like the image that was in front of your eyes.
My suggestion is that for me, digital audio is almost identical. As the resolution goes up and up so the detachment from reality also increases.
In photography one is forced to work in a darkroom with toxic chemicals and powerful irritants; with audio one is forced to endure the aspects of using a turntable and all of its bits and pieces.
I guess with all things you pay your money and you make your choice.
I think you're *spot on* there, Shaun [clearly we appreciate the same things], which is why in some ways it's sad that you've given up on vinyl, and haven't managed to get the huge pleasure and satisfaction out of it, as I have.
Marco.
jandl100
07-08-2018, 09:16
I had a Chord Hugo2 DAC on dem fully expecting to buy it based on the reviews (I hadn't seen the one by The Verge!).
I agree absolutely with The Verge review - soulless and unmusical. Actually quite unpleasant to listen to after a while.
If the Chord Dave is anything like that then I am sure I would be agreeing with Mr. C's opinion!
Haselsh1
07-08-2018, 11:05
I think you're *spot on* there, Shaun [clearly we appreciate the same things], which is why in some ways it's sad that you've given up on vinyl, and haven't managed to get the huge pleasure and satisfaction out of it, as I have.
Marco.
Well Marco, the reason I have given up on vinyl is largely one of cost and value for money, nothing else really. Everyone has a price they put on everything regarding value for money and for me personally, I went as far as I was prepared to go in terms of expenditure. I know full well that if I were to win the Lotto tomorrow night and it was nothing short of a jackpot win, things may well change in an instant. Correct house, correct room and correct analogue.
If that should ever happen, or even something remotely approaching it, give me a shout and I'll help you build a vinyl set-up that will blow your mind and that will never be anything other than a delight to listen to, I promise!:)
Marco.
I had a Chord Hugo2 DAC on dem fully expecting to buy it based on the reviews (I hadn't seen the one by The Verge!).
I agree absolutely with The Verge review - soulless and unmusical. Actually quite unpleasant to listen to after a while.
If the Chord Dave is anything like that then I am sure I would be agreeing with Mr. C's opinion!
DAVE sounds nothing like Hugo, Hugo2 or Qutest.
I had a Chord Hugo2 DAC on dem fully expecting to buy it based on the reviews (I hadn't seen the one by The Verge!).
I agree absolutely with The Verge review - soulless and unmusical. Actually quite unpleasant to listen to after a while.
If the Chord Dave is anything like that then I am sure I would be agreeing with Mr. C's opinion!
DAVE sounds nothing like Hugo, Hugo2 or Qutest.
Can you describe how it sounds then, Jim?:)
I don't doubt what you say, since you've heard it, but experience tells me that the products from specific manufacturers generally all share a similar 'house sound', to varying degrees (and also fundamental design principles), so in that respect I'm struggling to see why Chord, and the Dave in particular, would be any different, other than simply using 'fancier' and more expensive components...
Marco.
Mike Reed
07-08-2018, 11:51
I can't see Shaun's analogous analogue photography staging a major comeback as vinyl has done. I forlornly keep all my Olympus bodies and lenses in my drawer waiting for that renaissance but I rather think my reincarnation might precede it !
Can you describe how it sounds then, Jim?:)
I don't doubt what you say, since you've heard it, but experience tells me that the products from specific manufacturers generally all share a similar 'house sound', to varying degrees (and also fundamental design principles), so in that respect I'm struggling to see why Chord, and the Dave in particular, would be any different, other than simply using 'fancier' and more expensive components...
Marco.
I find the comments on DAVE interesting and a little different to how I hear it. As you know Marco I am no great fan of digital music by any means but have endeavoured to try and find a system that would suit to play some of the music I have not been able to get on vinyl format. I have been fortunate through a number of friends to be able to listen to a wide range of DACS from a number of manufacturers both cheap and expensive and generally I have been unimpressed. However DAVE is the exception. I heard Hugo when it first came out and I agree with folk on here with their comments, it is all about detail and lacks musical involvement, definitely a no-no for me. However the jump from Hugo to DAVE was both massive and extaordinary.
Listening to DAVE with the m-scaler the soundstage was simply breathtaking both in width and depth. Instruments and musicians had their own spatial acoustic environment clearly defined. The hard, hyper detailed edge of digital recordings simply vanished and the glassy quality digital often imposes on recordings disappeared. What hits you straight away it the very smooth analogue like sound DAVE imparts to recordings, almost like listening to tape.
DAVE is not all about detail and reaches far into the subterranean depths in bass with an articulation that cannot even be matched by vinyl. Its Dynamic range and vanishingly low noise floor does make it sound impressive but my thoughts were simple it was unlocking the potential that digital recordings have and few have actually heard.
Now when it comes to the question of musicality and all that I love in the analogue /vinyl realm then all I can say is its different, probably colder and less involving. And there is still something about digital music that lacks that indefineable musical experience that makes vinyl such a joy . Even DAVE can't achieve this.
If anyone out there truly thinks they have a digital set up that does achieve this let me know, I would certainly like to hear it.
montesquieu
07-08-2018, 11:59
DAVE sounds nothing like Hugo, Hugo2 or Qutest.
I've been keen to hear the DAVE, if only as a complete antidote to the sort of non-oversampling, redbook focused, tube ouput/rectified/regulated DACs that I've been using for best part of a decade. My last non os/non tube DAC was actually an early Chord DAC64. TBH anyone I've heard talking about the DAVE (as opposed to the Hugo TT which appears to be a bit Marmite) has liked it, which has left me intrigued and wondering if it could turn out to finally offer a decent TT some genuine competition in the making music stakes.
I've been keen to hear the DAVE, if only as a complete antidote to the sort of non-oversampling, redbook focused, tube ouput/rectified/regulated DACs that I've been using for best part of a decade. My last non os/non tube DAC was actually an early Chord DAC64. TBH anyone I've heard talking about the DAVE (as opposed to the Hugo TT which appears to be a bit Marmite) has liked it, which has left me intrigued and wondering if it could turn out to finally offer a decent TT some genuine competition in the making music stakes.
I have no vested interest in saying anything positive about DAVE as I don't own one and probably never will. And as you may gather I really don't like digital music so I am certainly not a big fan of digital equipment. But I have listened to DAVE for many many hours and it really is very good indeed and way ahead of any other digital components or systems I have ever heard.
I can't see Shaun's analogous analogue photography staging a major comeback as vinyl has done. I forlornly keep all my Olympus bodies and lenses in my drawer waiting for that renaissance but I rather think my reincarnation might precede it !
Don't give up on the old Olympus just yet :)
A chemical photography revival has been going on for some time - quite strongly among the quirky 'Lomography' community but also on a much broader basis:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/28/does-reflex-slr-camera-herald-35mm-film-renaissance
http://hatch.macleay.net/the-resurgence-of-film-photography/
Interesting that Kodak are taking it so seriously that they are restarting production of some of their 'shelved' films.
I got a few colour and B&W films a year or so back (Fuji and Ilford) to equip my ancient Rollei and Pentax cameras but too be honest I had forgotten just how much faff is involved so didn't get much further than shooting two rolls of slide film. I found the results actually disappointing but must admit it was quite fun for a while...
Chord are certainly pushing the price for top-end digital in toady's market.
Hugo 2 £1,800
Hugo TT 2 £3,995
M Scaler £3,495 - this seems to be what you want with the two Hugo DACs
Dave £7,995
Blu mkII £7,995 - looks like the ideal partner for Dave (does upscaling as well and being a transport)
So...£15,990 for the top end source.
Would only be interested if two things happened, ie
agfa50s pro was reintroduced, best slide film I ever used by a considerable margin, AND
CIBACHROME PRINTS were also re introduced.
I belong to a classic lens forum, shooting manually has made me a much better photographer, but i would never go back to shooting film full time
I belong to a classic lens forum, shooting manually has made me a much better photographer, but i would never go back to shooting film full time
Interesting Hal - I tend to agree ...
I mostly use 'classic' manual lenses on a digital body and have a small collection to choose from. I find it much more fun than relying on P&S automatic and of course you have a lot more scope in tweaking the parameters. I know you can set 'digital' lenses to manual focus but I find 'focus by wire' the most infuriating experience and never bother.
The only digital device I have heard that can match vinyl for 3D soundstage and particularly depth is the DAVE DAC. Simply awesome and sounds very analogue. Chord are definitely onto something with that DAC and if they keep going they will nail all aspects of the audio performance and probably move beyond vinyls capabilities.
My DAC also does it, but in a very different, opposite in fact, way to the Chord. Massive oversampling and huge amount of filter taps vs. no oversampling and no filtering.
Would only be interested if two things happened, ie
agfa50s pro was reintroduced, best slide film I ever used by a considerable margin, AND
CIBACHROME PRINTS were also re introduced.
I belong to a classic lens forum, shooting manually has made me a much better photographer, but i would never go back to shooting film full time
Cibachrome - ugh! That really was the photographic equivalent of "hi fi" (used as a pejorative).
It's good to learn of the re-manufacture of chemical film, but I doubt if Kodak have any plans to re-introduce Kodachrome 64, which was my favourite film (and no - Ektachrome doesn't come close).
There is zero connection between digital photography and digital audio so I don't really understand all the allusions to photography. if it is supposed to be an analogy I'm afraid it doesn't work.
My DAC also does it, but in a very different, opposite in fact, way to the Chord. Massive oversampling and huge amount of filter taps vs. no oversampling and no filtering.
Not heard your make of DAC Neil.?
There is zero connection between digital photography and digital audio so I don't really understand all the allusions to photography. if it is supposed to be an analogy I'm afraid it doesn't work.
Yup. The connection (not analogy) is a desire for obtaining something of quality (the best, whatever one perceives as such), even if you have to work for it, rather than merely accepting something inferior (often cheaper), simply for convenience sake [count me in with bells on]! :)
Marco.
There is zero connection between digital photography and digital audio so I don't really understand all the allusions to photography. if it is supposed to be an analogy I'm afraid it doesn't work.
Actually it was Shaun who drew a parallel with his similar trajectory with analogue photography in post #10
But I will say that having followed very heated debates on photography forums in the past around the analogue/digital divide, the parallels are painfully obvious and I think it a more than apt analogy. Most of the same arguments were used revolving around pretty much the same ground - e.g. which conveys a sense of realism or communicates emotion better.
Even the technical areas of argument were very similar (not surprising really) - RAW V compressed files; resolution and dynamics; etc.etc. etc .... ad nauseam.
Even equipment got the same treatment - 'the old days were the best ...' :lol:
Not heard your make of DAC Neil.?
That’s because ‘Audial’ is Pedja Rogic, who does no marketing, builds to order, sells direct, and is a bit of a DIYAudio.com legend before he went professional. He is an extremely talented engineer who also knows the value in trusting his ears too. Doesn’t stop him measuring everything through. :P
Actually I was Shaun who drew a parallel with his similar trajectory with analogue photography in post #10
But I will say that having followed very heated debates on photography forums in the past around the analogue/digital divide, the parallels are painfully obvious and I think it a more than apt analogy. Most of the same arguments were used revolving around pretty much the same ground - e.g. which conveys a sense of realism or communicates emotion better.
Even the technical areas of argument are very similar (not surprising really) - RAW V compressed files; resolution and dynamics; etc.etc. etc .... ad nauseam.
Even equipment gets the same treatment - 'the old days were the best' :lol:
My point was that technically they are not at all similar. I know people think they are similar, hence the similar arguments. And yes, I agree about the romanticised notions, but there's not much we can do about that and we are all susceptible to that to a degree in any case.
My point was that technically they are not at all similar. I know people think they are similar, hence the similar arguments. And yes, I agree about the romanticised notions, but there's not much we can do about that and we are all susceptible to that to a degree in any case.
Pah, film has a lovely charm about it, with each different film having its own character, just like vinyl playback really. ;)
My point was that technically they are not at all similar. I know people think they are similar, hence the similar arguments. And yes, I agree about the romanticised notions, but there's not much we can do about that and we are all susceptible to that to a degree in any case.
A major difference I can see is that you can't (unless very rich) press your own vinyl, in the way that you can develop and print photographic film.
A major difference I can see is that you can't (unless very rich) press your own vinyl, in the way that you can develop and print photographic film.
No, but you can record sound onto analogue tape quite easily ... and actually very few people had the facilities to process and print colour film stock in the domestic space (and it cost mucho...)
My point was that technically they are not at all similar.
In the analogue realm - no, but in the digital realm there are an awful lot of similarities once the chunk of reality has been captured and converted.
Outside of that, they are both technological media that have had a huge impact on the modern world ... and continue to do so (see the content of this forum)
Haselsh1
07-08-2018, 18:28
My point was that technically they are not at all similar. I know people think they are similar, hence the similar arguments. And yes, I agree about the romanticised notions, but there's not much we can do about that and we are all susceptible to that to a degree in any case.
They both involved digitised analogue waveforms surely..?
They both involved digitised analogue waveforms surely..?
As far as I understand it they are completely unrelated. Sound and video have markedly different requirements. Mike seems to think otherwise, so I don't know.
Sound and video have markedly different requirements.
Your original problem was with the term 'analogy' in this context
There are huge differences between a ship and a plough - doesn't stop them having an analogous relationship ....
I think if you consider the term 'analogue media' for more than a moment you would arrive at the same conclusion ;)
Your original problem was with the term 'analogy' in this context
There are huge differences between a ship and a plough - doesn't stop them having an analogous relationship ....
I think if you consider the term 'analogue media' for more than a moment you would arrive at the same conclusion ;)
Fair point. It is just the added confusion of them both being 'digital' - you don't have that with the ship/plough analogy, as it's clear to anyone that it is just an analogy.
I have listened to DAVE a lot with the m-scaler and no way does it sound mechanical. You must have heard it in a rotten system to sound like that. It is the smoothest most analogue sounding DAC I have heard. And in terms of 3D soundstage and textural layering it is superb.
I really can't understand your listening experience led you to think it sounded the way you described it.
Hey ho we all hear diferently I suppose.
Hi Jimbo
I will qualify my thoughts for you regarding the Dave:-
My experience with the Dave is quite extensive having had six units pass through our doors since October 2016, we have ran the units with quality musical highly resolving systems that have the ability to demonstrate what the equipment is or isn't capable of
Imho the Dave works best with slightly warmer fuller sounding systems based on our experience with former Dave customers set ups and our own systems in the studio
The m scaler is delivering what a good upsampler would deliver (if the device is correctly implemented ) a wider and deeper sound stage improved note separation and maybe if used in a direct red book multipule better bass definition as well. Also included in many up-samplers are some form of extra reclocking latches / jitter reduction /PLL contained within SRC chips or in FPGA dsp hardware
We also have one of the lowest system noise floor currently available so it is very easy to identify even. The smallest differences between equipment in a working genuine listening environment
The Dave combination is impressive I have acknowledged that fact just like the dac 64 which did give CD's at that point in time a shot in the arm without question but a long term listenability not a chance
One last point I would like to make all of the Daves that have passed through our hands have been traded back within six to nine months of their original purchase
Chord electronics, being a British company that does well which is a nice positive feel and we should be thankful of some good manufacturing news. In the U.K. The brand decides opinion in the trade I personally have always felt it was an English Krell but with more Space 1999 casework. I am not anti Chord at all I just do not believe all of the hype. This also applies to many other Audio companies as well
I have no doubt that it will do well here in the U.K. But the acid test is in that time frame I mentioned how many will be on the market?
The Dave does keep its used value which is big positive for the owners
Imho the Hugo is the most engaging dac Chord make not the TT version
After all 1 million taps is an audiophile's dream.
montesquieu
07-08-2018, 21:34
Hi Jimbo
I will qualify my thoughts for you regarding the Dave:-
My experience with the Dave is quite extensive having had six units pass through our doors since October 2016, we have ran the units with quality musical highly resolving systems that have the ability to demonstrate what the equipment is or isn't capable of
Imho the Dave works best with slightly warmer fuller sounding systems based on our experience with former Dave customers set ups and our own systems in the studio
The m scaler is delivering what a good upsampler would deliver (if the device is correctly implemented ) a wider and deeper sound stage improved note separation and maybe if used in a direct red book multipule better bass definition as well. Also included in many up-samplers are some form of extra reclocking latches / jitter reduction /PLL contained within SRC chips or in FPGA dsp hardware
We also have one of the lowest system noise floor currently available so it is very easy to identify even. The smallest differences between equipment in a working genuine listening environment
The Dave combination is impressive I have acknowledged that fact just like the dac 64 which did give CD's at that point in time a shot in the arm without question but a long term listenability not a chance
One last point I would like to make all of the Daves that have passed through our hands have been traded back within six to nine months of their original purchase
Chord electronics, being a British company that does well which is a nice positive feel and we should be thankful of some good manufacturing news. In the U.K. The brand decides opinion in the trade I personally have always felt it was an English Krell but with more Space 1999 casework. I am not anti Chord at all I just do not believe all of the hype. This also applies to many other Audio companies as well
I have no doubt that it will do well here in the U.K. But the acid test is in that time frame I mentioned how many will be on the market?
The Dave does keep its used value which is big positive for the owners
Imho the Hugo is the most engaging dac Chord make not the TT version
After all 1 million taps is an audiophile's dream.
This is really helpful Tony.
Would still love to hear one in my valve/Tannoy setup thought at some stage.
Tom
Your Mutec device is also a reclocking come upsampler I believe
One chap used Quad 2905 with his plus some quite tidy solid state it did work well and wasn't to Chord like
He traded up to MSB analogue dac which gave a much better natural fluid prestantion
Other owners went for Esoteric, Mergering Technologies and TAD
Again what we each look for in the sound is different however when something is fundamentally correct it just rounds right imho
montesquieu
07-08-2018, 22:23
Tom
Your Mutec device is also a reclocking come upsampler I believe
One chap used Quad 2905 with his plus some quite tidy solid state it did work well and wasn't to Chord like
He traded up to MSB analogue dac which gave a much better natural fluid prestantion
Other owners went for Esoteric, Mergering Technologies and TAD
Again what we each look for in the sound is different however when something is fundamentally correct it just rounds right imho
The Mutec has three main functions
USB receiver => SPDIF
Master clock with six outputs
Reclocker based on the master clock capability
It may have an upsampling capability but I've never figured that out - I'm pretty much 100% redbook anyway and the Audio Note DAC mostly does 44/16.
I use the MUTEC mainly for the limited amount of listening I do via USB input, as a USB receiver with high quality clock. As a reclocker it makes a modest improvement between my Audio Note transport and Audio Note DAC (AES/EBU or SPDIF out), so I generally leave it in when doing that as well. I would be interested in testing its capabilities as a master clock, but I don't have transport or DAC with BNC clock inputs and am probably unlikely to have in the short term.
I'm aiming at the overall musical flow that vinyl gives me, as well as the ability to unthread complex musical passages, where may dacs fall down. That and the degree of 3D space/dimensionality I get from vinyl - that's a hard one to pull off, the DAC64 did it to some extent but in an somewhat overblown, unrealistic way. NOS DACs I've found to give a more organic feel on the whole, but can suffer from other vices that mean they fall short of the palpability and presence of good vinyl.
Digital is my next port of call but I'll be sticking mainly with CD, I'm just not into stream-type interfaces. My AN DAC is actually very good, but my analogue setup (cartridge, arm, SUT, phono stage) is notably better in almost every circumstance. Having said that it's cost me considerably more (x4 maybe x5 what the digital side owes me). The Esoteric stuff does interest me.
Haselsh1
08-08-2018, 01:02
Sound and video have markedly different requirements.
Oh yes I agree, they both have differing requirements but they are both analogue waveforms that have been digitised. One exists because of nature and one exists because of man/woman.
Ali Tait
08-08-2018, 06:25
Out of interest Tony, what dacs have you heard that you liked?
Out of interest Tony, what dacs have you heard that you liked?
Hello Ali
Again all of this is personal and some of the not so well known units are pretty good, for example the Caiman SEG can be made to perform like a £2K unit and is musically engaging as well.
Some of the older dac's had the right mixture of involvement and listen ability as well
See Here (http://theaudiostandard.net/thread/4360/wormhole-effect)
The Belcanto dac's can be great to, having owned a great many of the Esoteric's (My previous reference was the six box dual mono dac/ Rubidium clock set up)
It is really how you like your music and how good your system is at resolving detail and presenting to you, do not reach beyond the capabilities of your speakers, keeping a nice balance pays dividends imho
Ali Tait
08-08-2018, 09:22
Agree on the SEG, currently using one with a Longdog PS, gives little or nothing away to the Mytek Brooklyn I was using previously, except remote control lol.
Firebottle
08-08-2018, 09:31
Tony clear your inbox please. Ta.
Agree on the SEG, currently using one with a Longdog PS, gives little or nothing away to the Mytek Brooklyn I was using previously, except remote control lol.
Hi Ali
The SEG can be improved by quite away still by internal upgrades and power supplies beyond LD's
The nos dads have a certain sound which appeals to quite a few
ianlenco
12-08-2018, 09:05
In the context of this debate I was thinking this morning about the olden days of television. Much of what was broadcast was on film but some was on VCR and the difference was obvious with VCR not fairing well in the comparison. It was even more obvious when some programmes were part film, part VCR such as in a mix of outside shoots and studio work. Nowadays TV programmes shot digitally are fine and often look quite filmic. In the same way digital music has come along way so that it is a perfectly enjoyable experience but not imho quite there yet in comparison with good old analogue.
Hi Jimbo
I will qualify my thoughts for you regarding the Dave:-
My experience with the Dave is quite extensive having had six units pass through our doors since October 2016, we have ran the units with quality musical highly resolving systems that have the ability to demonstrate what the equipment is or isn't capable of
Imho the Dave works best with slightly warmer fuller sounding systems based on our experience with former Dave customers set ups and our own systems in the studio
The m scaler is delivering what a good upsampler would deliver (if the device is correctly implemented ) a wider and deeper sound stage improved note separation and maybe if used in a direct red book multipule better bass definition as well. Also included in many up-samplers are some form of extra reclocking latches / jitter reduction /PLL contained within SRC chips or in FPGA dsp hardware
We also have one of the lowest system noise floor currently available so it is very easy to identify even. The smallest differences between equipment in a working genuine listening environment
The Dave combination is impressive I have acknowledged that fact just like the dac 64 which did give CD's at that point in time a shot in the arm without question but a long term listenability not a chance
One last point I would like to make all of the Daves that have passed through our hands have been traded back within six to nine months of their original purchase
Chord electronics, being a British company that does well which is a nice positive feel and we should be thankful of some good manufacturing news. In the U.K. The brand decides opinion in the trade I personally have always felt it was an English Krell but with more Space 1999 casework. I am not anti Chord at all I just do not believe all of the hype. This also applies to many other Audio companies as well
I have no doubt that it will do well here in the U.K. But the acid test is in that time frame I mentioned how many will be on the market?
The Dave does keep its used value which is big positive for the owners
Imho the Hugo is the most engaging dac Chord make not the TT version
After all 1 million taps is an audiophile's dream.
Your customers can't think much of DAVE then if they all came back within 6 months. Maybe they ought to have bought a SEG and saved £7700!
Haselsh1
12-08-2018, 10:08
In the context of this debate I was thinking this morning about the olden days of television. Much of what was broadcast was on film but some was on VCR and the difference was obvious with VCR not fairing well in the comparison. It was even more obvious when some programmes were part film, part VCR such as in a mix of outside shoots and studio work. Nowadays TV programmes shot digitally are fine and often look quite filmic. In the same way digital music has come along way so that it is a perfectly enjoyable experience but not imho quite there yet in comparison with good old analogue.
I have to agree with your comments here. There are definite areas where digital is nothing short of a revelation within communications for example but once again it is quite sad that this has primarily been put to use in war and death and destruction. I think that TV is a huge step beyond where it used to be.
A lot of music played via digital means is just awful to listen to as no dithering was applied in the mastering process when going from say 24 bit to 16 bit - the music was simply truncated.
Similarly in the digital image world dither is useful for mitigating the effects of going from 16 bit to 8 bit.
Done well digital will become analogue in quality.
Noise can be beautiful, distortion is never. :)
I posted earlier, the post has not shown, so here goes.
I had the mini Bake Off with Stoyan present. I encouraged him to pick up the Sony CDP, so he could listen to it through my evolving set up.
The schedule we worked with was CDP for a few tracks which Stoyan is familiar with, to assess how my system worked with the CDP, done a platform exchange as well to Phonotherm, I think it impressed as the Phonotherm, left with the CDP.
Then we chose a Phonostage to use in the Bake Off, VAS Valve MM, with Hashimoto HA-3 vs DIGNA.
It is amazing how they are differing, but each is extremely attractive to the ear. For the added weight in the replay the VAS remained in place.
The interconnects were different, Stoyans DIY OCC Pure Silver on the CDP, and my recently purchased silver plated cables from Vas to Slagle AVC, and copper cable from HA-3 to VAS.
The AVC has three inputs, so swapping between sources was a simple matter of a rotary switch selection.
Volume on the Same Title, Vinyl / CD was varying, the best match was Alicia Keys 'Songs in A Minor'.
I was chief switcher, it was apparent immediately that there was a very close match from both mediums, the were slight differences picked up, a more prominent vocal, or instrument, but both were equally impressive.
Stoyan had the Sweet Spot, on the Esl 57's and I trust his judgement in relation to the staging, he felt on few tracks the CD expanded beyond the speakers further than the Vinyl. He also felt the Vinyl had a less coloured lower bass note.
I felt it was a case of if any medium was being replayed for a period with out the switching, a listener would relax in to the replay and be totally happy with what they were listening to.
Not bad if you take a £7000 Vinyl Set Up, vs a £1200 Valve + other Mod's Sony CDP.
Haselsh1
13-08-2018, 16:04
Noise can be beautiful, distortion is never. :)
It's not bad when applied to a Gibson Les Paul
;)
Ali Tait
13-08-2018, 16:36
Hi Ali
The SEG can be improved by quite away still by internal upgrades and power supplies beyond LD's
The nos dads have a certain sound which appeals to quite a few
Yes, have the components from Stan, not got round to it yet.
It's not bad when applied to a Gibson Les Paul
;)
Ah yes indeed! :eyebrows:
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