Warp Factor Nine - 'She's Breaking Up Captain!'

[The Grand Wazoo]

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to flatten warped vinyl?

I've seen the £1000+ sandwich toaster type machines you can buy like the Furutech & others:
http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1436
.......but it's hardly realistic for an individual with just a few lightly damaged discs is it? The web's crawling with tales of mixed results (mostly bad) from glass/vinyl sandwiches left in the sun or slow cooked in an oven.

The received wisdom is that heating and cooling should be slow, I can understand why cooling should be slow, controlled and even, in order that contraction takes place evenly throughout the disc, but I don't really see why heating should be.

Anyway, I thought I'd have a go at a few experiments today with a steam cleaning device.

http://www.iosss.com/shopping/images/sc1-k.jpg

I chose a record that I have 2 copies of & that was pretty unplayable (Rush - '2112' - some would say a good condition copy is unplayable too, but that's not the point!). The mis-shaping was both a kink in the rim area at one point and also the whole disc was badly dished.

I put it onto a piece of glass which I then covered with a clean piece of cotton cloth. I put the disc on top & then covered it with another piece of cotton. Then I sprayed steam over the whole thing for about 20 seconds & quickly placed another sheet of glass over the top & had someone else standing by to put a large weight on top of the glass (an enamel bread bin full of water, if you must know!).

Then I left the whole lot to cool for about half an hour.

Results?
An absolute bloody disaster! The small edge warp was now extended into a roller coaster like thing of magnificent proportions running all the way round the record. I think I got rid of the dish shaped distortion, but it's hard to tell really.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7185/dscf1191j.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/dscf1191j.jpg/)

So, on reflection, I think the complete disc needs to be heated rather than just on one side like I did. I'm still convinced by the gradual cooling thing. My conclusion is that I probably haven't got the right gear to do this with - I should think a finely controllable kiln would be the thing for both heating and cooling, coupled with lots of time. I don't really have either!
Other than that, I haven't got a clue how to do it.


Any ideas folks?


.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Just don't take em to warp 10 mate they might turn in to wierd fish creatures!

[DSJR]

All I've ever done is keep my LP's reasonably tightly packed in IKEA Billy Bookcases for a decade or more. None of them are warped. I did damage a System 7 12" single to make it all but unplayable and I've packed it in to see if it helps. In ten years I'll tell you ;lol:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Yeah, it's just for the odd 2nd hand buy that I might make - I usually check things over pretty thoroughly but the odd one slips through.
I don't think I've ever let one of my own records warp though.

[Themis]

If I tried to flatten warp vinyl, I would to try to understand the mechanisms of warping...
Then, perhaps, try a method reversing the effects.

I'm not sure to fully understand why vinyl gets warped. Who can explain, please ?

[Gdg]

Wazoo,
some time ago I found this on Vinyl Asylum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/84/846062.html

it seems to be a pretty working idea, but I didn't check it by myself.

Anyway, why not to try with peryphery rings, like the ones from TTWeigths?
http://www.ttweights.com/rings.html

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Then after that they might kidnap the captain, take her to warp 10 so she turns in to a fish, shag her then leave the babies on a strange planet...
True story!

[Alex_UK]

I think I might try one in the microwave :)

[thankyoumisterman]

Then after that they might kidnap the captain, take her to warp 10 so she turns in to a fish, shag her then leave the babies on a strange planet...
True story!

The plot for the next iteration of the "Star Trek" reboot has been revealed right here on the AoS! Stay tuned for more breaking news...:ner:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

It's already an actual ep of voyager I'm banging on about... Star trek is well odd sometimes
here you go - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)?wasRedirected=true

[thankyoumisterman]

It's already an actual ep of voyager I'm banging on about... Star trek is well odd sometimes
here you go - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_(Star_Trek:_Voyager)?wasRedirected=true

Oy vey! :doh:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Wazoo,
some time ago I found this on Vinyl Asylum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/84/846062.html

it seems to be a pretty working idea, but I didn't check it by myself.

Anyway, why not to try with peryphery rings, like the ones from TTWeigths?
http://www.ttweights.com/rings.html

Giovanni,
Yes, I've seen several similar 'recipes' but I wondered if anyone here had tried anything different.

A metal ring that sells for several hundred quid?
No thanks, I'd rather just buy another, flatter copy of the album!
Thanks for your input though!

[The Grand Wazoo]

God, I should have known better than to have mentioned anything about flamin' Star Trek on here, shouldn't I?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm not even that into it... Just remeber that ep coz of how bloody stupid it was!!

[markf]

"A metal ring that sells for several hundred quid?
No thanks, I'd rather just buy another, flatter copy of the album!"

The outer weight idea works very well, I seemed to be getting quite a few new records
that were warped and that's really what made me look out to buy one of these weights
second hand,if I didn't like it I would just sell it on.
It took me a few weeks to get used to it ,but now it's no problem any record that has
any warp gets clamped and that's it, a perfectly flat playing record you don't see the arm move
up and down at all.

You know, you could make a DIY version,the ring is only holding the very edge of the record,
you probably don't need to use metal, any workable material with say lead shot added for weight
might be a good place to start.


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a158/markf_pfm/outer2.jpg

[aquapiranha]

Sounds like the heat and pressure need to be applied simultaneously, so, a trouser press it is then!

[jandl100]

I've had reasonable success flattening LPs simply by putting a heavy weight on top of them (e.g. a pile of books or a stack of LPs) with a glass pane directly on top of the warped LP in its sleeve and leaving for a day or so.

Has turned an unplayably warped LP where the cart grounded once per rev into a merely slightly warped but playable LP.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I've had reasonable success flattening LPs simply by putting a heavy weight on top of them.

Thanks Jerry, that was going to be my next experiment. I was thinking a week or two though!

[jandl100]

Thanks Jerry, that was going to be my next experiment. I was thinking a week or two though!

Yep, a week or 2 may well flatten the LP even more - but I got impatient. :) And just a day or so under pressure demonstrably turned an unplayable LP into a playable one.

[REM]

I'm not even that into it... Just remeber that ep coz of how bloody stupid it was!!

Wasn't that the last episode of TNG?

[Macca]

Yep, a week or 2 may well flatten the LP even more - but I got impatient. :) And just a day or so under pressure demonstrably turned an unplayable LP into a playable one.

I had a badly warped copy of Steely Dan's Aja. I put it between two big coffe-table books and piled weights on top. Left it a couple of weeks and out came a perfectly flat record. Played fine.

Two or three weeks later I pulled it off the shelf for another play. It was warped to buggery again...You tell me.

Also how come Captain Kirk gets through three whole seasons of episodes on TV without writing off even one Enterprise but get to the films and he totals one almost every time - The next Gen crowd are even worse for it. I bet Direct Line won't even give 'em the time of day...:)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Wasn't that the last episode of TNG?

nah, voyager ... follow my link ...

last ep of tng has got 3 enterprises and q testing the potential of the human race somehow

[REM]

Of course it was Voyager, Janeway 'n wotsisface evolving into slithery things and sloping off fer a bit of jiggery pockery. Fancy getting me TNG confused with Voyager, it must be an age thing, that and a bit of Absinthe along the way, takes its toll you know:).

[The Grand Wazoo]

Just to bring this thread back to life a little bit, I learnt about a thing called The Vinyl Flat that is supposed to do the job.
At $130 from the States, it's a bloody site cheaper than the waffle toaster thing from Furutech, the LP Flattener.

http://vinylflat.com/sitebuilder/images/vinyl_flat_2-386x265.jpg

You kind of bolt yer LP inside it & stick it in the oven for a precise time (defined by the weight of the record) and temperature, then you allow it to cool for a precise minimum time while still clamped up.

Stereophile review here:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/vinyl-flat-affordable-record-flattener

Company website here:
http://www.vinylflat.com/index.html

Has anyone used, seen or heard of these & is there a UK agency? - the website isn't very informative on the subject of dealers.

[Marco]

Lol! Would you risk putting any of your precious albums in the oven, no matter how 'safe' the claims? Count me out!!

And if you'd only ever be willing to risk flattening the stuff you don't care much about, what's the point? ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Lol! Would you risk putting any of your precious albums in the oven, no matter how 'safe' the claims? Count me out!!

And if you'd only ever be willing to risk flattening the stuff you don't care much about, what's the point? ;)

Marco.

You try it with some rubbish first and see if it works or not. If it does...

[The Grand Wazoo]

Lol! Would you risk putting any of your precious albums in the oven, no matter how 'safe' the claims? Count me out!!

If they're warped matey, then they're not so precious, are they?
............but you'd pay £1800 to put your LP's in Furutech's 'oven'?

The temperatures involved are very low & they also recommend and show you how to calibrate your oven so that you can make sure the heat setting is precisely set. They also do a mains powered heated bag which uses less energy.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

By "warped", I meant only 'slightly dished'. I have no genuinely warped records.

Therefore, what I meant was that, as I have many treasured recordings on slightly 'dished' (not perfectly flat) records, I wouldn't risk putting them inside a conventional oven, using that gizmo you mention, so if I was only willing to risk records that weren't so precious to me, then there wouldn't be much point in having the Vinyl Flat thingy in the first place....

The Furutech record-flattener has been demonstrated to me at a show, with great success (I was very impressed) and would thus be confident of using it, so I will treat myself to one when funds permit, likely later in the year :)

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

The Furutech is for flattening records? I thought it was for toasting paninis!

To be honest, I think the oven approach is not likely to be harmful as there is no direct contact with the heat. Sounds a really good idea to me - a more scientific version of "stick it between two sheets of glass in the sun."

[Marco]

Good luck then, dudes - it won't be me!

When I get the Furutech, I'll flatten all yer vinyls for yer, for a nominal fee (it'll go towards me frock fund) :eyebrows:

:booty: :booty:

Marco.

[Audioman]

Used the oven trick on a badly warped record once between 2 glass sheets. One cracked slightly and ended up with crinkle cut disc !

[Marco]

Lol!

Marco's motto: do the job right or not at all. And if you can't afford to do the job right, then leave things as they are! ;)

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Sorry Marco, but I don't see how this is not doing the job right. The Furutech applies heat & pressure and costs £1800. This thing applies heat & pressure and costs less than one tenth of that.

KZAScU584ZA

As I said earlier, if you don't trust your oven, there is a bag device which applies the heat in a more gentle manner. $129 for the clamp and an extra $100 for the bag - so $230 all in. The difference between those two prices buys an awful lot of records!

[Marco]

Hi Chris,


Sorry Marco, but I don't see how this is not doing the job right. The Furutech applies heat & pressure and costs £1800. This thing applies heat & pressure and costs less than one tenth of that.


Well, obviously I can't say for sure if the 'Vinyl Flat' thingy does the job right or not, as I haven't tried it; it's simply what my instinct suggests, especially when I'd have to deal with the notion of placing my precious records in a conventional oven - something which I personally wouldn't EVER be comfortable with doing. YMMV.

Price, for me, doesn't matter, as long that I consider (after comparison and demonstration) that the product I'm buying is the best :)


As I said earlier, if you don't trust your oven, there is a bag device which applies the heat in a more gentle manner. $129 for the clamp and an extra $100 for the bag - so $230 all in. The difference between those two prices buys an awful lot of records!

That may be the case, matey, but the fact is I've witnessed first-hand how safe and hugely effective the Furutech unit is. I haven't had the pleasure of the same experience from the 'Vinyl Flat', nor am I likely to, as it looks like I'd have to import it blind from the States, in order to find out.

The fact is, the Furutech is a known, if albeit expensive, quantity - and *that* is the deal winner for me! :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

I also like the look of this Clearaudio, at nearly £800 less than the Furutech:

http://www.hi-fi-accessories-1.com/vinyldoctor.htm

I'd need to do an A/B demo, though, to see which was best :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

The Clearaudio looks like the mk1 Furutech. I think there is only one Japanese company making these (forget the name) and all versions are just rebadges. I believe the earlier version did not work well with the flat or rimless pressings such as Classic 200g. They do warn against thin pressings on the latest model. However I know of one poster on SH forum with the mk1 who claims it works on everything but Universal Euro pressings which he thinks is down to vinyl formulation. I agree you can't rely on oven temp but I think there is now a UK distributor for the Vinylflat. Didn't know about the bag thing until now so it may work if accurate temp control is possible.

I reject moderate to bad warps when purchasing vinyl and find very minor warps or dishes to be of little consequence in practice. Often minor warps will flatten if records are stored upright and tightly together. Therefore I couldn't justify such a device. I think the Furutech is viable as a paid service or shared between audio club members. Stamford Audio offered such a sevice with the Mk1 but I believe abandoned it due to too many 'failures'. I imagine would be expensive if had to reimburse for ruined audiophile discs and rarities.

[steveinfrance]

Vinyl is a thermoplastic. If you heat it sufficiently it will retain any deformation you put into it (be that flattening or anything else) when it cools because it will flow a little. If you don't heat it and can't deform it beyond its elastic limit it will simply return to its previous configuration.
I would think hot water is the best bet since it is easy to adjust and measure the temperature. A domestic oven is a bad idea because the thermostat is unlikely to respond accurately enough at these low temperatures.
You could put the whole glass sandwhich into a bowl of water at 60°C, then either heat on a low ring if the container is metallic or add small amounts of hot water to bring the temp back up to 60°C ish, apply bread bin full of water (heavy water, Cap'n) then leave it to cool overnight.
I'm a bit concerened that the raised rim around the label will screw things up if using just a glass sheet - maybe cut suitable a hole in some thick polythene sheet to make 'washers' to go inside the glass plates.
Steve

[synsei]

Having watched the Vinyl Flat video the whole procedure looks to be a bit of a faff to me with plenty of scope for ruining the record. If those Groovy Disks or the record aren't scrupulously clean, any foreign matter (grease, dust, fingerprints etc) which is present during the 'baking' procedure will be indelibly imprinted into the playing surface. Also, I was horrified by the state of the A&M demo pressing used in the video after the procedure was complete, the instructions for which were presumably followed to the letter by the demonstrator. Add to this the vagaries of your average domestic oven and it all adds up to a 'recipe' for disaster. :eyebrows:

[Thing Fish]

I have never heard of vinyl distortion, unless you leave a record on the parcel shelf of a car during a heatwave or stack them wrongly.

I have hundreds of LP's some of them well over 30 years old and have never had one warp even slightly and I have moved house 4 times. What the hell do you guys do to your vinyl...?

[Marco]

We're not "doing" anything to them, dude... I doubt that anyone looks after their records better than I do. However, these days, some records are slightly 'dished' when you buy them brand NEW! :rolleyes:

Older records tend mostly to be fine. But I'd say that at least two out of every 20 brand new records I buy don't sit 100% flat on the platter, and so consequently the cartridge (and stylus) bobs up and down as it's playing them, causing tracing distortion, and significantly deteriorating sound quality in the process...

*That* is why I want a professional record flattener :)

If none of your new records are like that, then you've obviously been bloody lucky!

Marco.

[Marco]

Having watched the Vinyl Flat video the whole procedure looks to be a bit of a faff to me with plenty of scope for ruining the record. If those Groovy Disks or the record aren't scrupulously clean, any foreign matter (grease, dust, fingerprints etc) which is present during the 'baking' procedure will be indelibly imprinted into the playing surface. Also, I was horrified by the state of the A&M demo pressing used in the video after the procedure was complete, the instructions for which were presumably followed to the letter by the demonstrator. Add to this the vagaries of your average domestic oven and it all adds up to a 'recipe' for disaster. :eyebrows:

My thoughts precisely - particularly the bit in bold! ;)

Marco.